IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th September 2021, 12:57 PM   #121
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,574
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because "Freedom" has been perverted into a toxic, hateful "You can't tell me what to do" contrarianism. "I'm right and I know I'm right because other people are disagreeing with me so I must be an iconoclast going against the grain."

People's stupid, anti-intellectual obsession with "nobody gets to tell me what to what" has crossed the line that we now have a sizeable demographic that is, ironically, so incapable of independent thought that all they can know what to do is to reflexively do what anyone else suggests they shouldn't do.

Not only does this make them the saddest and most easily controlled group in recent history, as in they are all total sheep who you can make do anything simply by telling them to do the opposite, but it also makes the easily foils for people who need stupid, unintelligent followers.
Agreed. And these are the same people who claim they aren't sheep. For the relevant part, go to 3:58. But be warned: the stupidity of this woman is unbelievable.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 12:58 PM   #122
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 15,699
It would be government overreach to force companies to employ unvaccinated people.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 01:04 PM   #123
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,574
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Would you say the same thing about anyone who refuses to get a vaccine? Or just the people who believe in the microchip theory?
No, because some people can't get the vaccine for medical. And those who can and don't are doing it mostly for political reasons which is stupid, too, but not to the same degree of stupid. Anyone who thinks the vaccine has a freaking microchip in it or will magnetize you is a level of stupid quite above that of someone who is just refusing for "mah freedoms" stupidity.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 12th September 2021 at 01:05 PM.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 01:27 PM   #124
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,960
smartcooky has a birthday
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
First, I think we can all agree there are no tracking chips in the vaccine.

But, the idea that it would be ok if there were, because, "people carry cell phones anyway", is ludicrous.

Keep in mind, these folks really believe in these " tracking chips". I know they are stupid to think this, but it must be scary to them. It isn't surprising that some are willing to lose their jobs rather than get the vaccine.
I don't care, and I have zero sympathy for morons. We are not talking about people with clinical mental defects here, we are talking about people who are being wilfully ignorant and proudly so.

If you choose get your news from Facebook, Instagram and other social media echo-chambers (instead of reliable fact-checked news sources) and you end up believing the disinformation you read there, you have only yourself to blame if you end up losing your job or your social status. As Tom Clancy once said - "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes"

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It would be government overreach to force companies to employ unvaccinated people.
If government vaccine mandates are not introduced for all citizens (not just Federal employees) then at the very least I would like to see businesses require mandates for workers and staff. The government could offer tax breaks to businesses that have and enforce such a policy. Make a Federal law based on Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) to protect companies from rogue state legislatures that attempt to punish them. Insurance companies need to start refusing insurance or at the very least hugely hiking the premiums for medical insurance for clients and potential clients that refuse vaccination without a valid medical reason. Same for loan insurance.

Make day to day life very difficult for people who refuse vaccination without medically valid reasons for doing so. If the vaccinated population is high enough, it will protect this small number of people.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 12th September 2021 at 01:36 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 01:34 PM   #125
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,408
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Would you say the same thing about anyone who refuses to get a vaccine? Or just the people who believe in the microchip theory?
Would you say that anyone should be able to be hired as a doctor without certification?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 01:45 PM   #126
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,574
The woman in the video I posted in #121 is one of the "proudly and willfully ignorant" as she claims she doesn't watch anything but her religious show and maybe a "little FOX" (which I'd bet is Tucker C, S. Hannity, Fox and Friends, etc. rather than Fox NEWS).
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 02:15 PM   #127
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,150
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Would you say the same thing about anyone who refuses to get a vaccine? Or just the people who believe in the microchip theory? conspiracy.
You're welcome.
__________________
“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

Dr. Brytney Cobia
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 02:20 PM   #128
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,150
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Would you say the same thing about anyone who refuses to get a vaccine? Or just the people who believe in the microchip theory?idiocy.
Fixed it better.
__________________
“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

Dr. Brytney Cobia
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 02:23 PM   #129
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,574
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
You're welcome.
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Fixed it better.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 02:30 PM   #130
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
If the government isn't there to stop a literal pandemic when there is literally no downside outside of the already mentioned childish "You can't tell me what to do" then why even have a ******* government?

What can the government tell you to do then?

Again I care not about the opinion of people who only remember the concept of "rights" exist when the right in question lets them hurt other people, often with no concrete real world benefit to themselves. As if the cruelty IS the point.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 12th September 2021 at 02:32 PM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 02:39 PM   #131
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,520
Has anyone thought of making the risks of willful vaccine refusal without medical reasons MUCH bigger? Like sting them in the hip pocket if that is all they can think of.

For example, if you refuse the vaccine and then catch COVID, and it is shown you are a super-spreader then their medical treatment and (deity forbid) funeral costs come out of your medical insurance...or wallet if you don't have any.

Imagine every one of those happy-clappy anti-vax cult leaders who catch COVID and spread it among their sheep followers. Being sued right out of their (ill-gotten) gains could make them think twice about their silliness.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 02:53 PM   #132
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,574
GOP governors are vowing to fight Biden's vaccine mandate because it mustn't infringe on 'mah freedoms' by stopping tens of thousands or more people from dying a horrible death. On average 1,688 people are dying with over 2,100 dying on Sept. 9 alone.

At the risk of reporting 'tear jerker' facts about child deaths:

Quote:
A POLITICO analysis of weekly Covid-19 reports from the Florida Department of Health shows that 10 children under the age of 16 died from Covid-19 from July 30 to present as the Delta variant — which is much more transmissible — became the dominant strain. Previously, a total of seven kids died from the virus from the beginning of the pandemic through July, amounting to a span of more than 15 months.

The state now has seen 17 deaths, and American Academy of Pediatrics Florida President Lisa Gwynn said many of them may have had underlying medical conditions when they became infected.

“Having said that, it doesn’t mean we’re not worried sick about it,'' Gwynn said during a Sept. 3 interview. “We're all worried because we're not sure what's going to happen in the future.”
Quote:
While the 17 child deaths may seem low compared to the older adults, the increase of six deaths in August is an inevitable result of more kids becoming infected, according to officials at the Wolfson Children’s Hospital in Jacksonville.

Mobeen Rathore, Wolfson’s chief of pediatric infectious disease and immunology, said more children are being admitted to intensive care units and getting intubated.

“Unfortunately, some of these children will not survive,” Rathore said.

Despite the jump in deaths, the rate of kids testing positive for Covid-19 for the first time is about the same as last winter before the current Delta surge. Florida saw an overall 63 percent increase in new childhood infections in August, which is the greatest monthly increase in cases for kids since March 2020. What’s different is that more of those kids are landing in the hospital specifically for Covid-19, Wolfson officials said.
https://www.politico.com/states/flor...lorida-1390807


Meanwhile, in Mississippi:
Quote:
The state has seen more pediatric deaths in the last six weeks than the total number of kids’ deaths throughout the first 17 months of the pandemic, Dobbs said.
Quote:
Fetal deaths—which refer to deaths in the womb after 20 weeks of gestation—have also doubled among unvaccinated pregnant women with COVID, with 72 such cases reported.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:06 PM   #133
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 20,150
Nah, kids don't get COVID, much less die from it. I seen it on Facebook.
__________________
“One of the last things they do before they’re intubated is beg me for the vaccine. I hold their hand and tell them that I’m sorry, but it’s too late.”

Dr. Brytney Cobia
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:06 PM   #134
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Nah, kids don't get COVID, much less die from it. I seen it on Facebook.
I was told in no uncertain terms that to even suggest it was panicking.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:12 PM   #135
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,520
As the USA gets more and more of the willing people fully vaccinated, perhaps it is a better approach to consider more pragmatism about the deliberately unwilling recalcitrants. Namely that the people least worth keeping in US society are also those most determined to wipe themselves out of it. So perhaps, rather than despairing over their stupidities, letting them follow through and thinning their numbers might now be a better outcome.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:18 PM   #136
slyjoe
Master Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,788
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
As the USA gets more and more of the willing people fully vaccinated, perhaps it is a better approach to consider more pragmatism about the deliberately unwilling recalcitrants. Namely that the people least worth keeping in US society are also those most determined to wipe themselves out of it. So perhaps, rather than despairing over their stupidities, letting them follow through and thinning their numbers might now be a better outcome.
I see this all the time, and I think it bears repeating - if it was just them, fine. BUT IT"S NOT JUST THEM that are affected by their refusal to get vaccinated.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:19 PM   #137
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
We can't just "let Darwin take charge LOL."

Their stupidity is making more powerful variants almost inevitable.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:21 PM   #138
slyjoe
Master Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,788
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We can't just "let Darwin take charge LOL."

Their stupidity is making more powerful variants almost inevitable.
Exactly. And endangering kids (for now) and others in whom the vaccine is ineffective.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:55 PM   #139
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,520
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
I see this all the time, and I think it bears repeating - if it was just them, fine. BUT IT"S NOT JUST THEM that are affected by their refusal to get vaccinated.
Understood.

So who else is going to be vulnerable? More vaccine deniers, mainly. Like I said, are they worth the effort of trying to save if they refuse to grab the life-ring?

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We can't just "let Darwin take charge LOL."

Their stupidity is making more powerful variants almost inevitable.
Mutations are happening much more in places where vaccines are not available or are vanishingly scarce, such as third-world countries. IIRC, Delta came from the subcontinent, not home-grown in the USA. And at the rate the virus is killing off its US pool of candidates for mutation, its like a drying pond. Sooner or later the population of unvaccinated will be only those who are genuinely unable to take it, not deniers.

Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Exactly. And endangering kids (for now)
Children of unvaccinated people will be the unfortunate victims of their own decisions. If they want them to go play on the freeway, then let them.

ETA: It may even be possible that the children will survive the freeway and come back to their parents with "WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU THINKING??!"

Quote:
...and others in whom the vaccine is ineffective.
Keep the vulnerable away from the unvaccinated. Isolation. Since the unvaccinated are self-identifying, treat them like the pariahs they strive to be. They can have their wall...around themselves.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015

Last edited by Norman Alexander; 12th September 2021 at 03:59 PM.
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 03:58 PM   #140
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Keep them away from the unvaccinated. Isolation. Since the unvaccinated are self-identifying, treat them like the pariahs they strive to be. They can have their wall...around themselves.
If we can't make them get the vaccination, how are we going to make them isolate?

If we can make them isolate, why not just make them get the vaccine?

WHY MEET THEM HALFWAY?

You can't compromise with contrarian trolls.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 04:09 PM   #141
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,520
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If we can't make them get the vaccination, how are we going to make them isolate?

If we can make them isolate, why not just make them get the vaccine?

WHY MEET THEM HALFWAY?

You can't compromise with contrarian trolls.
They WANT to defy everyone else, WANT to be different, WANT to be isolated. Give them their wish.

For example, make it known publicly which towns are vaccine-deniers and "plague towns". Make them unpopular, pariahs. If they don't like it, they know the solution.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 04:10 PM   #142
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They WANT to defy everyone else, WANT to be different, WANT to be isolated. Give them their wish.
And their children?
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 04:11 PM   #143
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,520
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And their children?
Will suffer from the decisions of their parents. Those that survive will, hopefully, learn from those decisions.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 04:19 PM   #144
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,815
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the government isn't there to stop a literal pandemic when there is literally no downside outside of the already mentioned childish "You can't tell me what to do" then why even have a ******* government?

What can the government tell you to do then?

Again I care not about the opinion of people who only remember the concept of "rights" exist when the right in question lets them hurt other people, often with no concrete real world benefit to themselves. As if the cruelty IS the point.
The American ethos almost appears to have it that "The Government" is some external entity imposed from outside, and must be opposed at every turn. The concept that it comprises people from their own communities seems easily lost.

At least, this seems to me to more deeply entrenched in the US than in other democracies. As evidence, look at the attitude to taxation, the embrace of toxic capitalism and the resulting dearth of support systems for the citizenry. Which only feeds the cycle of distrust, I suppose.
Lurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 04:59 PM   #145
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,670
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If the government isn't there to stop a literal pandemic when there is literally no downside outside of the already mentioned childish "You can't tell me what to do" then why even have a ******* government?

What can the government tell you to do then?

Again I care not about the opinion of people who only remember the concept of "rights" exist when the right in question lets them hurt other people, often with no concrete real world benefit to themselves. As if the cruelty IS the point.
Normally with government actions and rights there is a balancing act to maintain the benefits a right gives. Even with things like the 2nd Amendment guns have the utility of hunting, and recreation, and self-defense.

But here there is literally no upside for anyone involved. The 'right to get other people sick' against 'getting a vaccine' in a cost/benefit analysis is just...all benefit and zero cost (apart from the taxes going to pay for the vaccine). Every other right has something to put it up against, but here all we have is...causing harm. That is it. The entire thing is to cause harm.

It's such an extreme outlier that a few short years ago a 'conservative' would have called it a straw man.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th September 2021, 05:03 PM   #146
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
But here there is literally no upside for anyone involved. The 'right to get other people sick' against 'getting a vaccine' in a cost/benefit analysis is just...all benefit and zero cost (apart from the taxes going to pay for the vaccine). Every other right has something to put it up against, but here all we have is...causing harm. That is it. The entire thing is to cause harm.
Well yes. The cruelty is the point. This isn't a freedom/safety weighing of the scales issue. It's a bunch of psychopathic trolls trying to find a technicality to hurt other people with.

Quote:
It's such an extreme outlier that a few short years ago a 'conservative' would have called it a straw man.
Everything in the last few years would have been a "strawman" if you suggested it a few years ago.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 08:23 AM   #147
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,512
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It would be government overreach to force companies to employ unvaccinated people.
I know right. How about the other workers who are put at greater risk by unvaccinated co-workers. Why isn't their safety a freedom issue?
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 08:45 AM   #148
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,789
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Yeah, but the decision to carry a cell phone is a choice made by the individual. And of course, you can shut the GPS off, supposedly. The joke makes little sense when you consider the mindset of of the people targeted.
I know someone who does not have a cell phone because they fear being tracked.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 08:51 AM   #149
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,789
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I know right. How about the other workers who are put at greater risk by unvaccinated co-workers. Why isn't their safety a freedom issue?
How great is the risk put on co workers who are vaccinated by those who are not? Big enough to warrant this mandate?
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 08:53 AM   #150
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
How great is the risk put on co workers who are vaccinated by those who are not? Big enough to warrant this mandate?
What does it matter how big the risk is when the other side of the equation is "Literally nothing."
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 08:57 AM   #151
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,789
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Normally with government actions and rights there is a balancing act to maintain the benefits a right gives. Even with things like the 2nd Amendment guns have the utility of hunting, and recreation, and self-defense.

But here there is literally no upside for anyone involved. The 'right to get other people sick' against 'getting a vaccine' in a cost/benefit analysis is just...all benefit and zero cost (apart from the taxes going to pay for the vaccine). Every other right has something to put it up against, but here all we have is...causing harm. That is it. The entire thing is to cause harm.

It's such an extreme outlier that a few short years ago a 'conservative' would have called it a straw man.
You think when someone doesn't want to take the vaccine it is because they want to cause harm.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 08:57 AM   #152
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 15,699
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
How great is the risk put on co workers who are vaccinated by those who are not? Big enough to warrant this mandate?
wrong question.

What right is being infringed by having to be vaccinated to participate in public life?
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:01 AM   #153
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,815
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
How great is the risk put on co workers who are vaccinated by those who are not? Big enough to warrant this mandate?
This is small-time, short sighted thinking. With a virus's ability to mutate, giving it more opportunity and time do so could end up with a far more virulent strain that could greatly impair the efficacy of the existing vaccine, putting us all back to square one. Father back than that if the mortality rate were to worsen.

Time is not on our side. Or at least for safety's sake we should proceed as such.

How would everyone's thinking align if we were right now facing an Ebola instead of a Covid? There would be an almighty stampede by everyone to take even the most rushed vaccine.
Lurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:02 AM   #154
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,789
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What does it matter how big the risk is when the other side of the equation is "Literally nothing."
Personally I believe we have little knowledge of the long term effects especially on young people. I would not agree the other side of the equation is literally nothing.

Plenty of approved treatments for various ailments have later been found to be dangeous. I admit mostly these are not vaccines but the new vaccines are a new technology.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:03 AM   #155
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Personally I believe we have little knowledge of the long term effects especially on young people. I would not agree the other side of the equation is literally nothing.

Plenty of approved treatments for various ailments have later been found to be dangeous. I admit mostly these are not vaccines but the new vaccines are a new technology.
Okay then you are wrong, ill informed, and do not get a say in the discussion.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:07 AM   #156
eeyore1954
Philosopher
 
eeyore1954's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,789
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
This is small-time, short sighted thinking. With a virus's ability to mutate, giving it more opportunity and time do so could end up with a far more virulent strain that could greatly impair the efficacy of the existing vaccine, putting us all back to square one. Father back than that if the mortality rate were to worsen.

Time is not on our side. Or at least for safety's sake we should proceed as such.

How would everyone's thinking align if we were right now facing an Ebola instead of a Covid? There would be an almighty stampede by everyone to take even the most rushed vaccine.
Maybe then instead of mandating vaccines here we should be giving the vaccines to other countries as our first priority should be to getting a bigger percentage of the world vaccinated.

Serious question. Do we know that the Covid that people who are vaccinated contract will not also mutate. I suspose since it is killed quicker it won't have a chance or possibly that will make it more likely to mutate to survive.
eeyore1954 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:23 AM   #157
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,084
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Maybe then instead of mandating vaccines here we should be giving the vaccines to other countries as our first priority should be to getting a bigger percentage of the world vaccinated.
There might be some logic to that, IF we knew an unused vaccine in the U.S. would be effectively distributed to other parts of the world that are are currently lacking in vaccine doses.

BUT.... in reality, the U.S. has the vaccines, and if they aren't given to people in the U.S. they would likely end up unused.
Quote:
Serious question. Do we know that the Covid that people who are vaccinated contract will not also mutate. I suspose since it is killed quicker it won't have a chance or possibly that will make it more likely to mutate to survive.
Its possible that a covid "breakthrough" case in a previously vaccinated person might mutate, but the chance of that is not necessarily greater than that of a mutation in an unvaccinated individual.

In fact, the chance of a mutation in a "breakthrough" case is probably significantly less, for pretty much the reason you suggested: lower viral loads and shorter infections mean less time to mutate. (Plus, the person who is vaxxed is less likely to pass it on to someone else, who could then end up with a mutated strain.)

Nothing is 100% here... but the vaccine greatly cuts down the odds... the odds of actually getting sick, the odds of passing the disease to others, the odds of having a mutation pop up that is more dangerous than existing strains.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:24 AM   #158
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Nothing is 100% here... but the vaccine greatly cuts down the odds... the odds of actually getting sick, the odds of passing the disease to others, the odds of having a mutation pop up that is more dangerous than existing strains.
Well that's the problem. Antivaxxer logic is always "I have some inherent right to assume greater risk (to myself and others) despite not actually having a reason to do so."
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:47 AM   #159
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,084
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Personally I believe we have little knowledge of the long term effects especially on young people. I would not agree the other side of the equation is literally nothing.
People have been receiving various Covid vaccines for over a year (going back to the early stages of the trials). And the technology used in developing these vaccines goes back even further than that.

Yet no effects have been found.

Quote:
Plenty of approved treatments for various ailments have later been found to be dangeous.
There have been, but many of those "dangerous treatments" didn't go through the proper testing protocols.

I don't think anything has been examined/tested as much as these Covid-19 vaccines.
Quote:
I admit mostly these are not vaccines but the new vaccines are a new technology.
No they aren't.

Vaccines like AstraZeneca and J&J are Viral Vector vaccines. But they've been testing (and in some cases using) those type of vaccines since around the 1970s, including in vaccines for Ebola (actually used in outbreaks in the Congo) and Zika.

See: Wikipedia

And the mRNA vaccine technology used in Pfizer/Moderna covid vaccines may be newer, they've been examining the technology since at least the 80s, and they've been studied for use in vaccines for Rabies and Zika long before they were used for covid vaccines.

See: Wikipedia

And investigation into vaccines for Coronaviruses isn't even all that new... they had started working on vaccines for SARS and MERS (both similar to Covid-19).
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 09:49 AM   #160
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,788
People don't get (and by don't get I mean intentionally ignore) that when the vaccines were "rushed" (and that's actually a horrible way of putting it, they were expediated under already laid out frameworks created for just this kind of scenario) the science wasn't rushed, just the bureaucracy.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 13th September 2021 at 09:53 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:40 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.