IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 13th September 2021, 10:58 AM   #161
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,574
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Personally I believe we have little knowledge of the long term effects especially on young people. I would not agree the other side of the equation is literally nothing.

Plenty of approved treatments for various ailments have later been found to be dangeous. I admit mostly these are not vaccines but the new vaccines are a new technology.
What you 'personally believe' is not based in fact. No vaccine as ever been found to have negative "long term effects" that were not discovered within a very short time.

Science shows that even the most serious side effects for any vaccine, including COVID-19, occur within just a few weeks.

As already shown by others, this is not new technology. It is well accepted and safe technology used for decades. I would suggest you re-evaluate your personal beliefs based on these facts.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 11:14 AM   #162
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 15,724
That's why it still took a year to run through the trials. I read that when China released the sequence for COVID 19 in January 2020, Moderna had their version ready to roll for trials 48 hours later, but still had to prove itself on conventional trials

Eta: meant to respond to poster JoeMorgue
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

Last edited by Thermal; 13th September 2021 at 11:17 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 11:31 AM   #163
crescent
Illuminator
 
crescent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,197
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What you 'personally believe' is not based in fact. No vaccine as ever been found to have negative "long term effects" that were not discovered within a very short time.

Science shows that even the most serious side effects for any vaccine, including COVID-19, occur within just a few weeks.

As already shown by others, this is not new technology. It is well accepted and safe technology used for decades. I would suggest you re-evaluate your personal beliefs based on these facts.
To add to that: One of the things brought up in the current setting is "Gulf War Syndrome", with the claim that the experimental Anthrax vaccine was part of the cause.

However, current evidence suggests that the vaccine was not the cause of the syndrome. PDF: Gulf War Syndrome and the Health of Gulf War Veterans
Quote:
data linkage studies that evaluated hospitalizations, outpatient visits, and disability
claims for diagnosed conditions six weeks to four years after vaccination have found few differences
between anthrax vaccine recipients and nonrecipients
To pile on to that, the anthrax vaccines were developed more than 30 years ago and may not have been stored properly. Service members at the time were also given other "vaccines" which were not vaccines in any way and didn't tie into immune function, they were prophylactic treatments against chemical weapons such as Sarin and Botulism toxin - but they still told the soldiers that these were vaccines, adding to confusion.
crescent is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 01:36 PM   #164
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
An interesting observation on the wasted opportunity all these vaccine deniers are incurring.

Quote:
Recent words by @conor64 and @ebruenig call for empathy towards the unvaccinated. Some folks I respect echoed them . I agree, let's not mock the seriously ill and the dead.

But let's be honest that continually indulging the unvaccinated in America, costs lives elsewhere.

Since March 2021, America has wasted ~15 million doses of vaccines. This is a direct consequence of empathy and patience towards those who refuse to take the vaccine.
Some vaccinated Americans also seem to have a somewhat cavalier, entitled attitude towards these globally scarce, life saving vaccines, as evidenced by ~1 million Americans who took unauthorized 3rd shots before the CDC booster guidance.
https://twitter.com/bykerseven/statu...03026789380098

The vaccines are very plentiful in America as unvaxxed morons turn their noses up at free, potentially life-saving medicine, but the vaccines are extremely scarce at the global level. American are not the only population chugging horse dewormer to supposedly fight covid, but we're one of the few that actually has the option for real, proven medicine.

Continuing to waste these doses is an absurdly cruel luxury that less fortunate nations do not share. At what point do we stop throwing these vaccines down the drain because idiotic Americans refuse to be vaccinated and start sending this medicine to places where they will go to use, be appreciated, and actually reduce the global numbers of covid?

Seems to me the ethical and practical solution is mandate vaccination, then after a short period allowing the unvaxxed to comply, start diverting this necessary medicine elsewhere. Those that refuse a mandate can deal with future local shortages should they change their minds.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 13th September 2021 at 01:38 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 01:40 PM   #165
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Because we all damn well know the exact nano-second we start shipping vaccines overseas the screeching about the Democrats "Giving dirty furniers vaccines that were meant for real 'Muricans" will start.

And yes that will be hypocritical of them and as I keep pointing out it won't matter because they don't care.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 01:42 PM   #166
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because we all damn well know the exact nano-second we start shipping vaccines overseas the screeching about the Democrats "Giving dirty furniers vaccines that were meant for real 'Muricans" will start.

And yes that will be hypocritical of them and as I keep pointing out it won't matter because they don't care.
Sure, they'll scream, but we don't have to let that guide our decisions.

The right wing isn't going to become reasonable anytime soon. We're going to have to become comfortable with ignoring or confronting (as most practical) their temper tantrums.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 01:44 PM   #167
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Yeah sure as soon as you discover the way to combat "Intentionally self destructive trolling backed by conspiratorial nutcases who live in a post-fact world" let me me know.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 01:49 PM   #168
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah sure as soon as you discover the way to combat "Intentionally self destructive trolling backed by conspiratorial nutcases who live in a post-fact world" let me me know.
Strange enough for me to admit this, but I actually think the Biden admin has been better than most when it comes to dealing with reactionary intransigence.

When announcing his plans for a mandate, his response to the reactionary freakout has been to call their bluff.

Sure, right wing resistance is going to mitigate how effective this strategy will be, but even a somewhat sabotaged effort will be better than doing nothing and hoping to reach a consensus with people that have no interest in being reasonable.

Quote:
Biden is hardly backing down. In a visit to a school Friday, he accused the governors of being "cavalier" with the health of young Americans, and when asked about foes who would file legal challenges, he retorted, "Have at it."
https://abc7chicago.com/covid-vaccin...ines/11015455/

There will be lawsuits, who knows how they will shake out, but that's better than the 0% chance of any reasonable compromise with the right. Hell, there will probably be violence, with right wingers already making thinly veiled threats about "revolution" and "tyranny" and blah blah blah.

Some things are worth a fight. I hope Biden and the rest have the stomach for the coming backlash, but so far he seems to have a good understanding of the stakes and the situation.

Biden plowed ahead despite all the whining and hot rhetoric about the Afghanistan withdrawal. If he can show similar resolve on this issue, I think we're in decent shape.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 13th September 2021 at 01:52 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 01:52 PM   #169
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Strange enough for me to admit this, but I actually think the Biden admin has been better than most when it comes to dealing with reactionary intransigence.
I respect you for saying that. (Zero snark)
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 02:06 PM   #170
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,701
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
You think when someone doesn't want to take the vaccine it is because they want to cause harm.
It does not matter if they intend to do harm or not, they are doing harm...and are just plain stupid.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 02:09 PM   #171
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,701
"Reason" magazine..the foremost "respectable" Libertarian website. does not have much reason in it. It has gone totally anti mandate, anti mask, loudly sounding the drum of "FREEDOM!".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 02:22 PM   #172
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,908
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
"Reason" magazine..the foremost "respectable" Libertarian website. does not have much reason in it. It has gone totally anti mandate, anti mask, loudly sounding the drum of "FREEDOM!".
This is consistent with the Libertarian philosophy surely. I'd be surprised if they argued otherwise.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 02:44 PM   #173
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 29,292
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What you 'personally believe' is not based in fact. No vaccine as ever been found to have negative "long term effects" that were not discovered within a very short time.

Science shows that even the most serious side effects for any vaccine, including COVID-19, occur within just a few weeks.

As already shown by others, this is not new technology. It is well accepted and safe technology used for decades. I would suggest you re-evaluate your personal beliefs based on these facts.
This is not Thalidomide.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 02:49 PM   #174
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,694
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
How great is the risk put on co workers who are vaccinated by those who are not? Big enough to warrant this mandate?
Risk to others, non-zero. Risk from vaccination, tiny.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 02:50 PM   #175
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,694
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Personally I believe we have little knowledge of the long term effects especially on young people. I would not agree the other side of the equation is literally nothing.

Plenty of approved treatments for various ailments have later been found to be dangeous. I admit mostly these are not vaccines but the new vaccines are a new technology.

And yet you seem to ignore the very real risks, short and long term, including death, from Covid-19.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 03:26 PM   #176
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 21,574
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
This is not Thalidomide.


Nope. It's not even a vaccine. It's a sedative that was also used to reduce nausea. Today, it's used in some cancer treatments.
Stacyhs is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 04:27 PM   #177
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,408
We used vaccines to eliminate smallpox worldwide. We could easily have used used vaccines to eliminate polio and measles worldwide, but no, the anti-vaxxers prevented that. We could eliminate COVID as well using vaccines ,lbut no, the anti-vaxxers aren't having that either.

It is just so bloody stupid.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 05:58 PM   #178
Fidelio
Muse
 
Fidelio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The island of Atlanta
Posts: 969
Are we even sure that polio, smallpox, influenzia, yellow fever, malaria ever actually existed?

Many people are saying the earth is actually flat.
__________________
"SCE to AUX" Thanks John Aaron and RIP Al Bean
Fidelio is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 06:02 PM   #179
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 52,701
Originally Posted by Fidelio View Post
Are we even sure that polio, smallpox, influenzia, yellow fever, malaria ever actually existed?

Many people are saying the earth is actually flat.
ANd the term for these people is "Idiots".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 08:49 PM   #180
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 18,960
smartcooky has a birthday
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What you 'personally believe' is not based in fact. No vaccine as ever been found to have negative "long term effects" that were not discovered within a very short time.

Science shows that even the most serious side effects for any vaccine, including COVID-19, occur within just a few weeks.

As already shown by others, this is not new technology. It is well accepted and safe technology used for decades. I would suggest you re-evaluate your personal beliefs based on these facts.
And it is important to understand that this is true for reasons that are relatively easy to understand, even for the layman.

When you become infected with a virus, your immune system takes time to react. During that time, you can become highly contagious and/or very ill, beyond the ability of your immune system to fight it effectively enough.

A vaccine itself does not protect you from the virus, it "trains" or "teaches" your immune system how to protect you from the virus. It does that by using "teaching aids" in the form of proteins, that mimic the virus. Your immune system then fights the "fake virus" teaching it not only to recognise those "teaching aids" if it sees them again, but allowing it to react much more quickly if it does.

The vaccine itself, and all the "teaching aids" are completely eliminated from the body by your own waste elimination system within a few weeks. The only thing it leaves behind are the "lessons" your immune system learned... and that is the reason there no longer term side effects - there isn't anything left in your body to have a side effect from.

When people talk about a vaccine losing its effectiveness over time, that is not what is really happening. There is no vaccine left in your body to lose anything. What is actually happening is that your immune system's "memory" is fading; it is beginning to forget the "lessons". A booster acts as a reminder.

NOTE: I expect some of the Googlexperts here will feel compelled to come along and show us how clever they are by nitpicking this description to death and adding details. Please don't. This is meant to be a simplified explanation... like a sort of Vaccines for Dummies. If the details do not add to the understanding, then they are unnecessary and will just create confusion.
__________________
► Evolution is "survival of the fittest" - the fittest being those who are stronger, healthier and better adapted. Covid-19 has changed that. The fittest are now the well informed, logical, science believers who listen to the experts and get vaccinated.
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 10:25 PM   #181
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,510
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
How great is the risk put on co workers who are vaccinated by those who are not? Big enough to warrant this mandate?
Yes actually. For example, I'm vaccinated but I also have 3 significant risk factors so getting a breakthrough case will put me at risk.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th September 2021, 10:35 PM   #182
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,510
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post


Nope. It's not even a vaccine. It's a sedative that was also used to reduce nausea. Today, it's used in some cancer treatments.
In the US it's only used if you can pay about 10K a month. There is some evidence it might help people like me with difficult to treat autoimmune disorders. And apparently I would be able to get some. But insurance companies here simply will not reimburse for it. 10K a month was what it would have cost me to try it.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 03:52 AM   #183
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 11,802
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
...A vaccine itself does not protect you from the virus, it "trains" or "teaches" your immune system how to protect you from the virus...
The explanation is on point but the above is what the right would use to attack it.
Quote:
What else is it gonna teach my doggone immune system?
It's politics, about owning the libs. One part of the wing already understands how vaccines work but they think attacking the vaccine triggers the libs. No matter how you present a pro-vaccine argument they'll look for a way to attack it. The other part of the wing is more clueless. They believe the attacks. Since neither group has much in the way of compassion and empathy, they don't care about any real world consequences. They seem convinced, they won't get it or, if they do, it'll be a mild case. Get vaccinated to protect your community? Falls on deaf ears.
Quote:
I protect my damn self. Let other people protect themselves. I ain't doing it for them.

Last edited by newyorkguy; 14th September 2021 at 04:06 AM.
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:04 AM   #184
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 32,371
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
It's politics, about owning the libs.
In the case of many senior Republicans who've been vaccinated, they seem to be encouraging their supporters not to get vaccinated so that Joe Biden's Covid death toll looks as bad as Donald Trump's.

Being vaccinated, they're orders of magnitude less at risk than their loyal followers.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:09 AM   #185
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post


It's politics, about owning the libs.
This is definitely true for some, even a lot, but for most of the unvaccinated crowd?

Is there any good information out there about what is motivating those that are currently unvaccinated? The people out there screaming about how the vaccines are Marxism or how they're going to suicide bomb their local school board if they pass mask mandates are certainly very, very attention grabbing, but I very much doubt this is the majority view of the unvaxxed.

I suspect a lot of these people are susceptible to the normal carrots and sticks of public policy. Lots of tough talk about people quitting their jobs rather than getting the vax, but telling a pollster that is free of consequences while actually getting fired is not.

I very much suspect a lot of this is just a mixture of laziness, half-hearted skepticism, and puffery that would collapse in the face of an appropriately aggressive mandate.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:13 AM   #186
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is definitely true for some, even a lot, but for most of the unvaccinated crowd?
I think it's like all Woo.

Predatory people with an agenda mixed with the "true believers" as the base, holding up a solid shell mostly made up of mentally troubled people surrounding a core made up of a lot of sad, lonely people who just want to belong to some group to feel important, sprinkled throughout with trolls who don't care about anything but like watching drama.

But at the end of the day if you made the personal choice to turn yourself into a walking plague blanket and/or encourage others to do the same your exact motivations is secondary.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 14th September 2021 at 05:26 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:28 AM   #187
slyjoe
Master Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ
Posts: 2,788
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is definitely true for some, even a lot, but for most of the unvaccinated crowd?

...snip

I suspect a lot of these people are susceptible to the normal carrots and sticks of public policy. Lots of tough talk about people quitting their jobs rather than getting the vax, but telling a pollster that is free of consequences while actually getting fired is not.

...snip
Not sure where I read it, but rewards (lottery tickets, money, food, etc) had practically no effect on vaccination rates.

What does seem to motivate people is fear, plain and simple.

And like was said above, not sure I care what motivates the unvaccinated. Put fear into them (don't care of what...the virus, death, suffering, pain, maybe money/job loss) and they will take the vaccine.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:29 AM   #188
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think it's like all Woo.

Predatory people with an agenda mixed with the "true believers" as the base, holding up a solid shell mostly made up of mentally troubled people surrounding a core made up of a lot of sad, lonely people who just want to belong to some group to feel important, sprinkled throughout with trolls who don't care about anything but like watching drama.

But at the end of the day if you made the personal choice to turn yourself into a walking plague blanket and/or encourage others to do the same your exact motivations is secondary.
I doubt there's any good way to figure out how many are willing to go all the way in this stupidity and how many are just keyboard warrior short of just calling the question with a mandate.

Morally they're all repugnant, but from a public policy standpoint, there's a huge difference between those willing to self-destruct their own lives out of stubbornness and those that will quietly back off this nonsense if it means keeping their jobs.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:31 AM   #189
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I doubt there's any good way to figure out how many are willing to go all the way in this stupidity and how many are just keyboard warrior short of just calling the question with a mandate.
Sadly you are correct. Questions of that nature can only be answered in real time and give you an answer after the point where if you're wrong it's too late to do anything about it.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:32 AM   #190
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Not sure where I read it, but rewards (lottery tickets, money, food, etc) had practically no effect on vaccination rates.

What does seem to motivate people is fear, plain and simple.

And like was said above, not sure I care what motivates the unvaccinated. Put fear into them (don't care of what...the virus, death, suffering, pain, maybe money/job loss) and they will take the vaccine.
What we know about deterrence is that people, generally speaking, are terrible at risk analysis. We know that the chance of getting caught has much more to do with deterrence than the severity of the consequences of getting caught.

The fear of maybe getting a serious disease, perhaps even dying, is clearly not effective. People can always justify their stupidity by believing they won't be the unlucky ones.

If a mandate is aggressive enough that it's basically guaranteed you will suffer a consequence (such as becoming unemployable), that has much more deterrent value than the long-shot odds of dropping dead of covid. Take luck out the equation and I suspect people's assessment of this moronic stance will change.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th September 2021 at 05:34 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:34 AM   #191
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Also the problem is it seems very, very hazy on whether or not this sort of fear is transferable.

Yeah we keep getting feed human interest stories of what amount to "Vaccine Deathbed Conversions" but I'm not sure if the facts are solid on whether or not that makes anyone else more likely to get to "stop being stupid" faster.

A bunch of people realizing way after it's too late to do anything about they are wrong has a certain karmic cosmic irony to it, but functionally it's not improving the situation.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:35 AM   #192
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also the problem is it seems very, very hazy on whether or not this sort of fear is transferable.

Yeah we keep getting feed human interest stories of what amount to "Vaccine Deathbed Conversions" but I'm not sure if the facts are solid on whether or not that makes anyone else more likely to get to "stop being stupid" faster.

A bunch of people realizing way after it's too late to do anything about they are wrong has a certain karmic cosmic irony to it, but functionally it's not improving the situation.
Especially considering that refusing to get the vaccine seems like de-facto evidence of an empathy and/or rational thinking deficiency.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 05:43 AM   #193
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Yeah so we need people to stop being stupid at a point when it actually matters.

I'm not inhuman, watching someone dying, realizing their own stupidity got them there, begging the world to give them a second change the world doesn't have to give them... it's not pleasant to watch even if I can't generate sympathy for the person in question in most cases.

But the problem is at this point the person's death (or if they are very, very, very lucky long term major medical problems) is all but inevitable and they've already spent God knows how long being a spreader of both the virus and false information, being an incubator for potential new strains, and wasting medical time, equipment, and expertise that could have gone to better use.

They still have a huge debt to the truth that will be left unpaid.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 06:30 AM   #194
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 15,699
No question, not getting vaccinated is a political statement for some.
In a recent survey I can Germany among those who refused to vaccinate, about a third give that as their reason.
Another no third has health concerns, and another third doesn't feel the need because no one in their circle got seriously sick.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 07:23 AM   #195
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,670
Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
You think when someone doesn't want to take the vaccine it is because they want to cause harm.
Yes, depending on how you are using 'want'.

The reality of what they want is to cause harm. It doesn't really matter if they can admit that to themselves or they get to 'wanting to cause harm' with more steps. Even if they have a depraved indifference to that truth, that's the outcome they're literally killing for. It is the same way that arguing the Civil War was about 'state's rights' is still arguing it was about slavery. State's rights to do what?

Some will desperately try to rationalize it with some slippery slopes and other fallacies that if they were true could invalidate almost any law. If we can use our freedom of medical choice in such an extreme case like this to cause death and suffering on a massive level, then why can someone be charged with spreading HIV recklessly? How could you charge someone with using their speech to incite violence? How could you charge someone for using their freedom of movement to walk into a prison, and trade with people there?

They know or should know that refusing the vaccine without good reason is causing direct, acute harms to others with no actual benefit to themselves. This reckless endangerment is so clear and present that it has been addressed in law for more than a hundred years, and so well evidence in this specific case that there can be no rational argument there is not a compelling state interest.

It is as clear as 'you can't **** on the salad bar'. Hell, it's actually more clear than that because if you **** on the salad bar, at least you don't have to **** anymore. Demanding we respect people arguing for their right to spread a disease needlessly is so...entitled.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 07:53 AM   #196
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 34,787
Agreed. We're not about to get trolled down into yet another thread where people are intentionally hurting people and someone tries to drag us down into hairsplitting the difference between "I'm intentionally causing harm" and "I'm intentionally performing an action that I know will cause harm, but that's the not the same as intending to cause harm."
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 07:59 AM   #197
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
LAPD found God.

Quote:
More than 2,000 Los Angeles Police Department employees have indicated they may request exemptions from the City’s new vaccine mandate, claiming their religious beliefs would prevent them from receiving any of the COVID-19 shots, according to multiple senior officials familiar with the City’s effort to vaccinate its workforce.
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/invest...virus/2691274/

Sooner or later these big cities are going to have to confront that their police departments are chock full of conspiracy poisoned right wingers that are going to do everything possible to keep covid killing the public.

Mass layoffs of anti-vax freaks in the police department seems like a golden opportunity to rid the department of some of the most malicious and stupid people on the force. Hopefully these cities don't let this chance slip by.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th September 2021 at 08:01 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 08:10 AM   #198
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 6,842
This will sound strange, but vaccine deniers and other types of covidiots may well feel (not think, I wont be unjust to them) that they're contributing something to society. This is probably the first time they've ever been able to feel that.

I can understand their emotions. When you're a rural proletarian, i.e., what used to be called a mudsill, you feel useless and disregarded, the latter with considerable justification. That class of people, and the class immediately above them, attached themselves to Trumpff because it felt like gaining power. Power to do harm? Damn right! Power to sling vulgarity into the faces of the rich and entitled too!

Now they don't feel that; their God is fading out. What can they do to keep being noticed? Why, save themselves and stay pure! Save their country from those sneering smartallecks! Who'll by god have to reckon with the empowered ignorant!

I said I can understand the way they feel. Scares me a little.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

Last edited by sackett; 14th September 2021 at 08:13 AM.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 08:14 AM   #199
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,039
Originally Posted by sackett View Post
This will sound strange, but vaccine deniers and other types of covidiots may well feel (not think, I wont be unjust to them) that they're contributing something to society. This is probably the first time they've ever been able to feel that.

I can understand their emotions. When you're a rural proletarian, i.e., what used to be called a mudsill, you feel useless and disregarded, the latter with considerable justification. That class of people, and the class immediately above them, attached themselves to Trumpff because it felt like gaining power. Power to do harm? Damn right! Power to sling vulgarity into the faces of the rich and entitled too!

Now they don't feel that; their God is fading out. What can they do to keep being noticed? Why, save themselves and stay pure! Save their country from those sneering smartallecks! Who'll by god have to reckon with the empowered ignorant!

I said I can understand the way they feel. Scares me a little.
People who are comfortable with being self-consciously evil are pretty rare. Most of the time people doing cruel things to their fellow man think they are doing the right thing.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th September 2021, 08:33 AM   #200
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,408
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The vaccine itself, and all the "teaching aids" are completely eliminated from the body by your own waste elimination system within a few weeks. The only thing it leaves behind are the "lessons" your immune system learned... and that is the reason there no longer term side effects - there isn't anything left in your body to have a side effect from.
Sigh. I know that. You know that.

Nevertheless, the loon fringe is convinced:

1: The vaccine permanently alters your DNA, forever.
2: The vaccine has a "microchip" in it
3: The vaccine is variously intended to control you, track you, poison you, kill you, turn you atheist, turn you communist, turn you marxist, turn you liberal, turn you reptillian, disrupt your chakras, interrupt your Kundallini currents and who knows what all.
4: interact with 5G to do any of the above. Pick one.
5: Depopulate the world. So that the big pharma can make more money by selling drugs to dead people?
6: So that Trump can be reinstated since the evil libs will be gone. (Yes, I have seen that one.)
7: So the "elites can move underground. Whit the seed banks and the mole people, only to later emerge to...what, exactly?

It seems absurd, yet here we are with buckets of people believing this crap.

Seems to me that the end times believers are not waiting for it, they actively want to create it.

Just MHO.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:26 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.