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Old 13th September 2021, 11:39 AM   #1
JSanderO
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Science Denial

Today we are witnessing science denial on steroids as it relates to the Covid pandemic. We have also witnessed the emerging influence of evangelical christian ideas which are clearly also anti science. After 9/11 science denial quickly appeared coming from the 9/11 truth "movement". In both instances the science deniers advance their own professionals and experts... who are lauded as "truth tellers".
It's hard for me to comprehend how intelligent educated people promote unscientific thinking. How can an engineer state that a collapse of the twin towers was impossible without CD? How can they even claim the collapse was at "free fall" or that free fall motion (or near FF) could ONLY mean that there was a CD that destroyed the columns?
A layman does not have the tools to understand a building collapse. They do understand that an explosion can destroyed integrity of a structure. It's not difficult to understand that the layman finds the explosive controlled demolition a good fit for a building collapse. After all.. Tall buildings ARE demolished with explosives and the collapse looks "close enough" to call it a match. For sure, if your observations are not informed my technical knowledge....your mind comes up with an explanation which satisfies them.
We have seen this in how ancient people explain the natural world.
Very few people have seen structural failures and they are extremely rare.
So it's understandable how laymen can be misled as well as misunderstand what they saw.
What is MORE troubling and to me inexplicable are those who ARE educated and CAN understand and refuse to... or reject reason. Witness David Chandler or Gage or McCoy and so on. Why are they deluded? And why are they promoting a false narrative?
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:01 PM   #2
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For many, it's a fundamental distrust of government. In a post-Pentagon Papers world, it's a thing to not take anything endorsed by DC as straight dope.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:10 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
For many, it's a fundamental distrust of government. In a post-Pentagon Papers world, it's a thing to not take anything endorsed by DC as straight dope.
Actually it's your basic Grifting the equivalent of the 19 century traveling medical show on the internet.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:23 PM   #4
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I think for Gage at least the grifter tag applies. Others seem to have an attention thing going on... being a "truther" celebrity. All of these people are denying the science which is available to anyone who seeks technical explanations.

I know Tony knows the arguments... He was a member of 911FF... Chandler? He seems to be hiding from those sites... and the truth. Maybe he makes money of his advocacy for 911truth???
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Actually it's your basic Grifting the equivalent of the 19 century traveling medical show on the internet.
I'm thinking of the very few deniers I know. Their basic reasoning is that if the govt (or even media) supports it, it can't possibly be true. Applies to vaccinations/lockdowns, climate change, even horrors like Sandy Hook.

Which I can sympathize with, to a point. Our government and media have a lousy track record for honesty.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Actually it's your basic Grifting the equivalent of the 19 century traveling medical show on the internet.
Ah, John Worrell Keely rides again.
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Old 13th September 2021, 12:40 PM   #7
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Because if they can believe that there's an all-powerful "them" behind everything, they can believe that it isn't their fault they're a complete loser. It's drinking in the last chance saloon of their self-validation.
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:23 PM   #8
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Good point. YES we rarely get the whole truth and the reason is things like "national security". YES we are subject to spin and PR, advertising all the time and no it's not the whole story... from gov, authorities including the government.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:50 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Good point. YES we rarely get the whole truth and the reason is things like "national security". YES we are subject to spin and PR, advertising all the time and no it's not the whole story... from gov, authorities including the government.
We have Media Now thanks to Rupert Murdock, that tells lies that violate the very laws of physics and could not possibly be true.
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Old 14th September 2021, 08:09 AM   #10
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Fox should not be allowed to peddle lies as they do.. Same for any media. That sounds like censorship... but the FCC license should proscribe lying... In fact this is dangerous because they call what they do news... people believe what they see and hear on Fox... It's dumbing down the citizens.
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Old 14th September 2021, 08:41 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Fox should not be allowed to peddle lies as they do.. Same for any media. That sounds like censorship... but the FCC license should proscribe lying... In fact this is dangerous because they call what they do news... people believe what they see and hear on Fox... It's dumbing down the citizens.
I have noticed, from CT-believing friends of mine, that they simultaneously castigate the 'MSM' for 'telling lies' and also strenuously object to fact-checking, and to any legal attempts to hold media outlets accountable to standards of factuality.
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:13 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
I have noticed, from CT-believing friends of mine, that they simultaneously castigate the 'MSM' for 'telling lies' and also strenuously object to fact-checking, and to any legal attempts to hold media outlets accountable to standards of factuality.
When Someone wishes to argue with established laws of physics as described by Newton, Maxwell, and Einstein in a way that is just dumb they deserve to be laughed at.
Yellow Journalism now is all we have.
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:33 AM   #13
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I am curious about why people accept the sources of information which they do???? Is the average person incapable of recognizing that the AE911T is false and misleading? How are people who are educated and especially those with engineering backgrounds taken in?
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Old 14th September 2021, 09:53 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
I am curious about why people accept the sources of information which they do???? Is the average person incapable of recognizing that the AE911T is false and misleading? How are people who are educated and especially those with engineering backgrounds taken in?
I think it's a screwball credibility distortion. If your starting assumption is that "the government lies and coerces others to lie, you might ascribe more credibility to what you perceive as an independent third party, ie AE911Truth. That they are in fact biased towards their own narrative might get by you, if they present themselves just neutrally enough. I think AE911 road that line fairly well, at least early on. Then they develop some credibility by their signatories, which appear to be a larger group than da gubmint.
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
I am curious about why people accept the sources of information which they do???? Is the average person incapable of recognizing that the AE911T is false and misleading? How are people who are educated and especially those with engineering backgrounds taken in?
Every CT starts like this:

A big, sometimes tragic event happens.

City, State, and Federal Investigators go to work, but their process is RIGHTLY slow and methodical. So in the information vacuum CTists step forward with their own version of events.

Every CTist has a political agenda which overrides their education and rational thinking. They take the known facts of the big event and tie it together with parallel facts, some closely relevant, and some are a stretch. Their overall narrative is designed to frame their personal political/social bogeyman (the CIA, FEMA, Democrats, Communists, Nazis, and or Jews). While the intial CTs usually fall flat on their face, other CTists quickly build upon the parts that had social traction and run with their new, improved CT.

Every good CT starts with a foundation of basic facts:

A+B+C=D

Then they combine their CT with the facts by drawing on unrelated conspiracies of the past:

Watergate+Pinochet+the CIA of the 1950s & 60s etc.

So we get the logic of:

If Watergate happened then lizard people planted explosive charges in the elevator shafts of the Twin Towers and flew a missile disguised by a holgram into the Pentagon...all so they could use Nanothermite to destroy WTC-7 to hide CIA evidence of whatnot.

The trick is to get people nodding, so yes Watergate happened therefore we should keep an open mind. At some point people stop asking for evidence, something we had with Watergate, but even in the days, and weeks after 9-11 never existed. And being educated does not vaccinate one from going to Crazy Town, in fact it makes it worse:



Just read through the old 911 threads on this board where intelligent people (much smarter than me) argued for CT. For some it's like a cat chasing a laser pointer around th house; they can't help themselves. And others like Tony Z just have a world-view that intellectually blinds them.

Just my .02 cents.
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Old 14th September 2021, 11:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
I am curious about why people accept the sources of information which they do???? Is the average person incapable of recognizing that the AE911T is false and misleading? How are people who are educated and especially those with engineering backgrounds taken in?
People simply don't want to hear information that is counter to the model of the universe that they have built for themselves in their head. Many are programed by false information.
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Old 14th September 2021, 02:01 PM   #17
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Everyone knows and accepts that "intel" deals in secrets, secrecy and seem to have power to do things the rest of us cannot. I think this allows CTists to accept that crazy things can be done... and be kept secret and cover stories are part of spycraft.

So we have the conditions of a "black op" shadow gov operation. The object would be to consolidate power and to control the political agenda... which post 9/11 seems to be a rush to war not a rush to arrest and try the people in the plot. Certainly lots of money in making war. And they got the Patriot Act approved which gave the people's rights a haircut. Hoe convenient!
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Old 14th September 2021, 02:57 PM   #18
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Wink

Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Everyone knows and accepts that "intel" deals in secrets, secrecy and seem to have power to do things the rest of us cannot. I think this allows CTists to accept that crazy things can be done... and be kept secret and cover stories are part of spycraft.

So we have the conditions of a "black op" shadow gov operation. The object would be to consolidate power and to control the political agenda... which post 9/11 seems to be a rush to war not a rush to arrest and try the people in the plot. Certainly lots of money in making war. And they got the Patriot Act approved which gave the people's rights a haircut. Hoe convenient!
Yes but I just wish I was paid as much for my Shilling as they think I was, I could then pay off the national Debt and lower everyone's Taxes.
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Old 14th September 2021, 02:57 PM   #19
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And all this is fed by the super credulous media, TV in particular, that provides infotainment rather than reason. When I read this thread, I thought, "I wonder what is happening on Oak Island?" It appears that in the eighth season they finally have proof of a Massive Treasure . . . no, wait, they have found a copper coin!

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The comments are not exactly supportive.

Any guesses how long the "History" channel can string the show out?
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Old 14th September 2021, 08:03 PM   #20
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As ozeco41 would say most people can't seem to handle the burden of having to think about more than two, three factors of a given situation at once, much less how those factors may interact. I'm paraphrasing. But we can see this happen for any pet belief, opinion, speculation, etc. Conspiracist reasoning is an endless circle of "oh yeah, what about this?!..." "but this part here seems too weird, so I'm just gonna forget everything you just explained to me"
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:24 AM   #21
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So comprehension .. understanding... of the events at the WTC demands careful observations and the technical background to understand what you are seeing.

Years ago, "independent" researchers on sites such as 911FF took this approach and produced logical coherent and internally consistent explanations.

However. the visual observations are truly and incomplete set of data. For one we can't see inside the building because the facade largely blocks one's view. Secondly we don't have temperature data for the flames... and assumptions are required... where they were burning and for how long... and of course how hot were they.

Gage relied on flawed reasoning such as.... if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it MUST BE a duck. So he shows a building collapsing from a CD and says... look at the similarity. Anyone can see 7WTC was a CD.

The entire truth arguments were based on incorrect, incomplete observations, misunderstanding and incomplete or no understand of structure, fire and engineering. We got a garbage in garbage out... but the naive person failed to see the slight. People are fooled by magic too. Don't you believe your eyes?
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
So comprehension .. understanding... of the events at the WTC demands careful observations and the technical background to understand what you are seeing.

Years ago, "independent" researchers on sites such as 911FF took this approach and produced logical coherent and internally consistent explanations.

However. the visual observations are truly and incomplete set of data. For one we can't see inside the building because the facade largely blocks one's view. Secondly we don't have temperature data for the flames... and assumptions are required... where they were burning and for how long... and of course how hot were they.

Gage relied on flawed reasoning such as.... if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it MUST BE a duck. So he shows a building collapsing from a CD and says... look at the similarity. Anyone can see 7WTC was a CD.

The entire truth arguments were based on incorrect, incomplete observations, misunderstanding and incomplete or no understand of structure, fire and engineering. We got a garbage in garbage out... but the naive person failed to see the slight. People are fooled by magic too. Don't you believe your eyes?
Gage Just followed Steven Jones's lies, Steven E.Jones set up the original conspiracy theories by lying and Trying to claim evidence that wasn't present.
It was grifting all along and remains grifting to this day!
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Old 15th September 2021, 10:36 AM   #23
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What was the motivation of the original truthers?
Were they naive and not intentionally dishonest... just kinda dumb?
After some time and lots of sites debunking truther nonsense... stinking with the truther line is would be grifting, exploitation... and for sire willful ignorance and self delusion.

The psychology of dumb and delusion and willful ignorance is more interesting the the actual collapse dynamics.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:27 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
What was the motivation of the original truthers?
Were they naive and not intentionally dishonest... just kinda dumb?
After some time and lots of sites debunking truther nonsense... stinking with the truther line is would be grifting, exploitation... and for sire willful ignorance and self delusion.

The psychology of dumb and delusion and willful ignorance is more interesting the the actual collapse dynamics.
Motivation? At its root it's a political statement. After that, anything that confirms the point in their mind is fair play.

I think the root cause is most Truthers, like most people, are naive and ignorant. The insistence that the events of 9/11 would have "broken the laws of physics" just sounds crazy to people who know what they're talking about, but most people tend to overestimate how much they know. I've been trained from movies that firing a bullet into a vehicle's fuel tank will make it explode. I don't know if it would, and I haven't done any research to confirm whether this can happen, but if I was less skeptical I may fall for a conspiracy theory that engages my ingrained belief.
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Old 15th September 2021, 12:59 PM   #25
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Most people are very ignorant as far as science and engineering for sure. They/we go through life believing that engineers who understand are behind all the things we take for granted... cars, planes, elevators... cell phones... you name it. And in fact practically speaking there is no need or purpose in "understanding" how things work... unless you have to maintain or repair them.
So people see explosions and CDs in the media and the media is their frame of reference for what is possible. And the media, unless "science fiction" tries to stick the the possible.
So along come a series of narcissists who are looking for attention, a buck or both and the exploit the naive public... much the way a cult leader does... Oh wait... Gage was the 911Truth cult leader! The church of 911Truth... Leave your critical thinking at the door... and your donations right over here.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:23 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
So comprehension .. understanding... of the events at the WTC demands careful observations and the technical background to understand what you are seeing.

Years ago, "independent" researchers on sites such as 911FF took this approach and produced logical coherent and internally consistent explanations.

However. the visual observations are truly and incomplete set of data. For one we can't see inside the building because the facade largely blocks one's view. Secondly we don't have temperature data for the flames... and assumptions are required... where they were burning and for how long... and of course how hot were they.

Gage relied on flawed reasoning such as.... if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it MUST BE a duck. So he shows a building collapsing from a CD and says... look at the similarity. Anyone can see 7WTC was a CD.

The entire truth arguments were based on incorrect, incomplete observations, misunderstanding and incomplete or no understand of structure, fire and engineering. We got a garbage in garbage out... but the naive person failed to see the slight. People are fooled by magic too. Don't you believe your eyes?



Quote:
So comprehension .. understanding... of the events at the WTC demands careful observations and the technical background to understand what you are seeing.
Years ago, "independent" researchers on sites such as 911FF took this approach and produced logical coherent and internally consistent explanations.
911FF ? Was that Eric Lawyer's group?...
Independent researchers that comprehend and have an understanding of fire science took-up the challenge
and using careful observations and their technical background to understand,
applied this approach and produced logical and internally consistent explanations.
OK

Please post a link to the final results their work produced and explain how their explanations, that impressed you
enough that you used them as an example, affirm your convictions.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:52 PM   #27
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read these sites:
http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/

and

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/the9...zNAlCjcnBszQlR
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Old 15th September 2021, 02:09 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Most people are very ignorant as far as science and engineering for sure. They/we go through life believing that engineers who understand are behind all the things we take for granted... cars, planes, elevators... cell phones... you name it. And in fact practically speaking there is no need or purpose in "understanding" how things work... unless you have to maintain or repair them.
So people see explosions and CDs in the media and the media is their frame of reference for what is possible. And the media, unless "science fiction" tries to stick the the possible.
So along come a series of narcissists who are looking for attention, a buck or both and the exploit the naive public... much the way a cult leader does... Oh wait... Gage was the 911Truth cult leader! The church of 911Truth... Leave your critical thinking at the door... and your donations right over here.
It was ignorance and Grifting you have to Remember a lot of what they first produced was based on Propaganda, both Russian, Chinese and from Iran, and Venezuela.
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Old 15th September 2021, 02:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
911FF ? Was that Eric Lawyer's group?...
Independent researchers that comprehend and have an understanding of fire science took-up the challenge
and using careful observations and their technical background to understand,
applied this approach and produced logical and internally consistent explanations.
OK

Please post a link to the final results their work produced and explain how their explanations, that impressed you
enough that you used them as an example, affirm your convictions.
He is referring to ROOSD, on the 9/11 Free Forums.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:11 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post

I thank you for those resources ...


No ! I want a link to the results of the 911FF Study, the one you want the stupido and ignorant "Twoofers" to emulate.
Then, using the techniques that you they stated arrived at logical conclusions using their technical skills and knowledge to
form their opinions, We should arrive at the exact same conclusions.
The 911FF may have been behind the "outing" of Triforcharity as a class A fraud and if what you say about them is true
they would have made their findings public somewhere.
A link will do. Links to other sites is unacceptable.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:22 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
He is referring to ROOSD, on the 9/11 Free Forums.
Can you supply a link to the ROOSD on the 9/11 free forum?.
Does the link to the ROOSD on the 9/11 Free Forum discuss the 911FF Study
JSanderO mentions ?
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Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains taken to bring it to light. __George Washington
All great truths begin as blasphemies __Shaw

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Old 15th September 2021, 04:54 PM   #32
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by Fonebone View Post
Can you supply a link to the ROOSD on the 9/11 free forum?.
Does the link to the ROOSD on the 9/11 Free Forum discuss the 911FF Study
JSanderO mentions ?
Roosd explanations can be found here, also a forum search will lead you to discussions on this very Forum.http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/...sition=722:722

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Old 16th September 2021, 05:16 AM   #33
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Interesting that truthers don't bother to look for all material about the collapses online. I post two links with many discussions and much wisdom.
But believing Gage's comical presentations seem to make sense to them.

We are a nation of idiots and willfully ignorant people.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:05 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
What was the motivation of the original truthers?
Were they naive and not intentionally dishonest... just kinda dumb?
After some time and lots of sites debunking truther nonsense... stinking with the truther line is would be grifting, exploitation... and for sire willful ignorance and self delusion.

The psychology of dumb and delusion and willful ignorance is more interesting the the actual collapse dynamics.
I've told this story before, but it fits...

On 9/15/2001 I went to the local metaphysical bookstore to visit. Back then I was deeper into the Woo, and the bookstore was where I attended UFO discussion-group meetings back in the 1990s (just for background). I'm talking with the owner hoping to get caught up with UFO gossip but all he wants to talk about his how the 9-11 attacks were suspicious. He rattled a list of things off, such as the claim that footage of Palestinians celebrating in the streets was actually four years old (in the footage there are two cars which are 2001 makes).

I asked him where he was getting this from and he said he'd received a fax from a guy in Sacramento, a guy who was a big promoter of the chem-trail conspiracy.

I've never been back to that bookstore.

Anytime a country goes to war conspiracy theories grow like weeds.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:07 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Interesting that truthers don't bother to look for all material about the collapses online. I post two links with many discussions and much wisdom.
But believing Gage's comical presentations seem to make sense to them.

We are a nation of idiots and willfully ignorant people.
As has been pointed out many times before, in the time since 9-11 Truthers could now have multiple PhDs in engineering AND physics using the same effort they put into wasting their brain power on CTs.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
Interesting that truthers don't bother to look for all material about the collapses online. I post two links with many discussions and much wisdom.
But believing Gage's comical presentations seem to make sense to them.

We are a nation of idiots and willfully ignorant people.
You can lead a Truther to Science, but you can't make him think,
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:31 AM   #37
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you might find this article of interest
truthandshadows.com/2012/01/11/when-did-they-know-truth-leaders-on-how-they-awakened-to-the-911-lie/
it shows what we already know, that trutherism is about belief (religious conversion) and not about evidence. You might also be interested in a book by one of my colleagues at Lund U, entitled 'Knowledge Resistance' by Michael Klintmann. He also has a shorter piece in The Conversation. Basically Klintmann says that social togetherness trumps arguments, which is why people will resist good arguments if it means that they become isolated from their groups. Truthers are not just a lonely guy in a basement. They are a community. I do research on connspiracy theories and because I live in denmark, have had some interaction with Niels Harrit. I am also in academia and can attest that it is filled with some incredibly stupid, dogmatic, stubborn people. Steven Sampson, Lund, see focaalblog.com
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:56 AM   #38
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Someone like Neils Harrit is smart enough to understand the rational consistent arguments about the collapse of the WTC buildings. He is an example of and educated science denier. I suspect he is a truther "luminary" for the ego. Hardly anyone would know him if he didn't jump on as a truther expert.
Sad man... pathetic because effectively he is not naive... he is deceitful.
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:40 AM   #39
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Couple of points. Almost nobody denies science outright, mostly they deny scientific evidence that has implication or outright contradicts their pre-existing beliefs, most science deniers really just pick and choose which science they like.

Humans are not rational, we are rationalizing. The smarter and more well educated you are the better you are at rationalizing what you want to believe.

Its virtually impossible to tell if someone truly believes something or is merely using it to con folks. Even if you catch them in deliberate deception, they may think of it as a noble lie.

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Old 17th September 2021, 10:24 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Couple of points. Almost nobody denies science outright, mostly they deny scientific evidence that has implication or outright contradicts their pre-existing beliefs, most science deniers really just pick and choose which science they like.

Humans are not rational, we are rationalizing. The smarter and more well educated you are the better you are at rationalizing what you want to believe.

Its virtually impossible to tell if someone truly believes something or is merely using it to con folks. Even if you catch them in deliberate deception, they may think of it as a noble lie.
This is excellent...
Gage will deny he denies science! He will assert that what he presents IS science. This is self serving. Science deniers IGNORE what contradicts their views on a topic. Essentially they "cherry pick" science which supports their view and ignore science that refutes it.
But in the case of someone like Gage and his professionals.... they SHOULD be aware of all the relevant science on the topic they advocate... and most likely they are. Engineering may rise above their pay grade...
Admittedly structural engineering and physics is above his pay grade. Chandler teaches physics and should know better... he is obviously in denial and lying. All of them should have "brushed up" on the state of the art.. collapse mechanics... before they opened their mouths. And when they did learn that they had made mistakes.... they should retract their incorrect statements. They don't. This is willful igorance with the intent to deceive... EXACTLY what they accuse NIST and the media of - INTENT to deceive.
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