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Old 14th September 2021, 05:26 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I disagree,
from what I can work out, woman is a gender label so rpg it, whatever.
Human? Won't anyone think about the A.I's?

Female is a physical description, I don't think that can rpg'ed at all.

A female is a female, a male is a male, everything else seems to be a variable.
So... a mare is a horse that feels like a mare, and likes the gender label of mare, regardless of whether they are a male or a female horse? A drake can be either a male or a female duck, so long as they prefer the gender label of drake?

Are you certain that your milk is coming from a female bovine? Are you sure it's not coming from a male bovine that simply doesn't identify as a steer?

We have terms for male and female members of many different species, to distinguish their sex and maturity quickly. A filly is a female horse that is not sexually mature; a mare is a female horse that is sexually mature. A colt is a male horse that is not sexually mature; a stallion is a male horse that is sexually mature and intact; a gelding is a male horse that is sexually mature and neutered.

The idea that we can't have a single word for a sexually mature female human, a sexually immature female human, a sexually mature male human, or a sexually immature male human is strange. It's also a bit insulting - we are robbed of our humanity when you make the terms woman, man, girl, and boy into terms of self-selection divorced from our sex.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:26 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Indeed, and being female is just as much a component of being a "Woman" as being an Adult, or being a Human is.
If all three conditions are not met- the person is "presenting as", or "believing themselves to be" or even "pretending to be" a Woman. Which is fine by me. But they are not, objectively, a "Woman" unless they are Female, Adult, and Human.
Ah, ok.
The way I look at it, is as gender labels like 'woman' or 'man' are just variables that people can choose depending on how they want to interact with society and to be treated.

Male or female on the other hand, are not labels at all, they're physical descriptions of reality.

I'm fine with the gender label not matching the reality, the label is just to let you know how they want to be treated. You seem to be saying the label has to match reality, is that correct?
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:29 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If being a little bit squicked out by the prospect of cock-sex with someone in the uncanny valley between male and female makes me a transphobe, then a transphobe is what I am.

Heterosexuals don't have to apologize to anyone for their sexual turn-ons and turn-offs. Homosexuals don't have to justify their sexual attractions to any damn person. Transsexuals don't have to apologize. Why should cissexuals have to?
The part that made me giggle was this bit:

Quote:
Of the seven participants who themselves identified as transgender or nonbinary, 89% were willing to date another trans person.
11% of transgender people aren't willing to date transgender people. I mean, small sample size and all but still.

Hmm. You can't get 89% out of 7 respondents. That's 6.23 people. Maybe they've got a quadriplegic in there and are only counting them as 23% of a people?
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
If you define woman as a gender role, does that mean a female person who doesn't perform that gender role isn't a woman?
Given that I don't wear skirts, heels, or stockings, don't curl or style my hair, don't wear makeup, and think that pink is a horrid color, I suppose the best I can hope for is nonbinary, despite my currently-quite-angry uterus and fully functional female biology.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:32 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Ah, ok.
The way I look at it, is as gender labels like 'woman' or 'man' are just variables that people can choose depending on how they want to interact with society and to be treated.

Male or female on the other hand, are not labels at all, they're physical descriptions of reality.

I'm fine with the gender label not matching the reality, the label is just to let you know how they want to be treated. You seem to be saying the label has to match reality, is that correct?
The problem is that the label absolutely **** ing useless for telling you how they want to be treated..

Pop Quiz: How do women want to be treated? What does it mean to treat someone like a woman?
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:33 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
If you define woman as a gender role, does that mean a female person who doesn't perform that gender role isn't a woman?
It's a gender role, it's entirely up to them. Which is kind of the point.
EDIT:
ah ****, I should just say gender label instead of role, as role gives the wrong impression. I do not mean anyone having to act a certain way or anything. More just being happy with who you feel you are.

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Old 14th September 2021, 05:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Ah, ok.
The way I look at it, is as gender labels like 'woman' or 'man' are just variables that people can choose depending on how they want to interact with society and to be treated.

Male or female on the other hand, are not labels at all, they're physical descriptions of reality.

I'm fine with the gender label not matching the reality, the label is just to let you know how they want to be treated. You seem to be saying the label has to match reality, is that correct?
If the label does not correctly define that which it is labelling- it is at best a fiction, and at worst a lie.
"Man" and "Woman" are just as much descriptions of reality as are "Male" and "Female".

I am not fine with terms that are used as descriptions of reality not matching reality itself as closely as possible.
If the title of the thread were something akin to: "Trans-women should have all the rights of Women", or "Trans Women should be viewed as Women under the law" I would have different takes on it, but the title of the thread is "Trans Women are Women"- A false proposition from Jump Street.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
It's a gender role, it's entirely up to them. Which is kind of the point.
If it's a role, then it's up to the audience.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:37 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
It's a gender role, it's entirely up to them. Which is kind of the point.
Let's assume for the moment that you are correct, and that anyone can select any gender role they want, whenever they want. And that by so doing, they compel other people to treat them the way they imagine that gender role to merit.

What should happen when an adult human male, with fully intact male genitalia, with not hormone treatment at all, adopts the gender label of "woman"?

If they believe that the proper treatment for their view of "woman" is that they are now allowed into female locker rooms, around naked human females of all ages... are they then entitled to such treatment? Are human females obligated to accept them into their private spaces, because they have adopted the gender label of "woman"?
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:44 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The problem is that the label absolutely **** ing useless for telling you how they want to be treated..

Pop Quiz: How do women want to be treated? What does it mean to treat someone like a woman?
Well that's an easy question, women or men would prefer people to treat them with the correct pronouns, for instance.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:48 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What should happen when an adult human male, with fully intact male genitalia, with not hormone treatment at all, adopts the gender label of "woman"?
Good luck.

I've literally been asking this question for 10 threads and as many years at this point and have never gotten an answer, just a mealy-mouth, pettifogging spiral of "Well it's complected you see self-identity... er stop asking you transphobe."

I have person X who has a penis and an XY chromosome who identifies as male.

I have person Y who has a penis and an XY chromosome who identifies as female.

I've asked, begged, screamed, appealed to, everything short of bribed someone, anyone to tell me what the difference is between those people and how I am supposed to treat them differently. I've never gotten an answer.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:48 PM   #52
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EDIT:
ah ****, I should just say gender label instead of role, as role gives the wrong impression. I do not mean anyone having to act a certain way or anything. More just being happy with who you feel you are.
My fault, sorry.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:50 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well that's an easy question, women or men would prefer people to treat them with the correct pronouns, for instance.
Yet some express a desire (even insist) that the incorrect pronouns be used when they are being referred to in the third person. Which makes your sweeping assertion far from a universal truth.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:50 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well that's an easy question, women or men would prefer people to treat them with the correct pronouns, for instance.
If that's the most significant thing you can think of, then the gender label is indeed useless.

What even is a "correct" pronoun? There is no such thing. Just my preference, and you doing me a courtesy.

I note that you have completely avoided any substantive answer to the question of what it means to be treated as a woman. Which is understandable, since there is no substantive answer.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:53 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
EDIT:
ah ****, I should just say gender label instead of role, as role gives the wrong impression. I do not mean anyone having to act a certain way or anything. More just being happy with who you feel you are.
My fault, sorry.
Please explain the difference between "gender" and "gender label."

I mean we already had words for all of this. Sex and gender.

Sex is what you are and, outside of some major surgery, doesn't change no matter how hard you close your eyes and wish upon a star.

Gender is what society expects out of you and was about 100% bullcrap within a rounding error. You can, and should, defy it as much as you are comfortable with. Let your freak flag fly and all that. I've got your back on that.

Until the great transgender retconning trying to reword two words over and over to create a "sex/gender soul" in there as a third axis.
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Old 14th September 2021, 05:59 PM   #56
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When a woman wears a pink dress, you should comment on how cute she looks.

When a man wears a pink dress, you should gasp and have your monocle drop into your earl gray.

When a transwoman wears a pink dress, you should comment on how cute she looks.

Gah, it's so easy. Peasants.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:04 PM   #57
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"I thought sex and gender stereotypes were bad."
"Not when you're using them ironically!"

Would it help clarify things if instead of transgender we just called them gender hipsters?
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:15 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Good luck.

I've literally been asking this question for 10 threads and as many years at this point and have never gotten an answer, just a mealy-mouth, pettifogging spiral of "Well it's complected you see self-identity... er stop asking you transphobe."

I have person X who has a penis and an XY chromosome who identifies as male.

I have person Y who has a penis and an XY chromosome who identifies as female.

I've asked, begged, screamed, appealed to, everything short of bribed someone, anyone to tell me what the difference is between those people and how I am supposed to treat them differently. I've never gotten an answer.
male and female are physical facts, you can't identify as them as they are not variables.
Man/woman/other though? they are gender labels and seem to be variables.

If X wants to be treated as a man and Y wants to be treated as a woman then I'm happy to oblige.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If that's the most significant thing you can think of, then the gender label is indeed useless.

What even is a "correct" pronoun? There is no such thing. Just my preference, and you doing me a courtesy.
yeah, that's what correct means in this context.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I note that you have completely avoided any substantive answer to the question of what it means to be treated as a woman. Which is understandable, since there is no substantive answer.
I said it's a variable, treat people how they want to be treated.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:15 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
EDIT:
ah ****, I should just say gender label instead of role, as role gives the wrong impression. I do not mean anyone having to act a certain way or anything. More just being happy with who you feel you are.
My fault, sorry.
I get the place you're coming from, p0lka. And it's a very nice and compassionate place.

The challenge is that self-identification, adopting a gender label based on feelings alone, results in a conflict. Specifically, gender identity frequently conflicts with sex class. At the end of the day, a male who identifies as a woman is not actually female. And vice versa.

Which leads to situations where one or the other of those characteristics needs to take precedence.

So let's start with my current top issue: prisons.

Prisons have long been sex-segregated. They haven't been separated on the basis of gender label or gender identity, but on objective sex. Over the past few years, that has changed, and several US states, along with Canada, and parts of the UK & Ireland, have decided that prisoners should be housed according to their gender identity, rather than their sex. I, along with nearly all female inmates, think this is a monumentally bad idea that puts female prisoners at risk.

What are your thoughts on how gender identity should be handled in prisons?
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:17 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
If X wants to be treated as a man and Y wants to be treated as a woman then I'm happy to oblige.
So you treat men and women differently?

*Cue massive backpedal that no that's totally different...*
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:22 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
When a woman wears a pink dress, you should comment on how cute she looks.

When a man wears a pink dress, you should gasp and have your monocle drop into your earl gray.

When a transwoman wears a pink dress, you should comment on how cute she looks.

Gah, it's so easy. Peasants.
you missed a permutation.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:24 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
male and female are physical facts, you can't identify as them as they are not variables.
Man/woman/other though? they are gender labels and seem to be variables.

If X wants to be treated as a man and Y wants to be treated as a woman then I'm happy to oblige.


yeah, that's what correct means in this context.


I said it's a variable, treat people how they want to be treated.
Aside from pronouns, which are arbitrary, how do you believe a woman wants to be treated?
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:28 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So you treat men and women differently?
I'd've assumed everyone (other than a/bisexuals) has treated men and women differently, at least some of the time.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:30 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So you treat men and women differently?

*Cue massive backpedal that no that's totally different...*
I treat everyone differently, according to how they would like to be treated.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:31 PM   #65
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And just like that, we're right back where we started.

"Okay, so a biological male who identifies as a man is different from a biological male who identifies as a woman."
"Correct."
"So there have to be meaningful non-biological differences between males and females."
"No, they aren't."
"So there's a variable that exists between biological males who identify as women and biological males who identify as females, but no variable that exists between men and women?"
"Yes."
*Slight stroke*
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:33 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I treat everyone differently, according to how they would like to be treated.
Copout. Answer the question actually asked.

You treat women and men differently because they are women and men, because there is a variable there. If there is no variable there "transgender" is totally meaningless.

Let's see how much virtual breathe you waste trying to make a distinction without difference before falling back on "Shut you're a transphobe."
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I treat everyone differently, according to how they would like to be treated.
Give us an example of your approach in practice. Give us an example of a friend or acquaintance of your s, who told you what being treated like a woman meant to them, and how you treated them that way.
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Old 14th September 2021, 06:52 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I get the place you're coming from, p0lka. And it's a very nice and compassionate place.

The challenge is that self-identification, adopting a gender label based on feelings alone, results in a conflict. Specifically, gender identity frequently conflicts with sex class. At the end of the day, a male who identifies as a woman is not actually female. And vice versa.

Which leads to situations where one or the other of those characteristics needs to take precedence.

So let's start with my current top issue: prisons.

Prisons have long been sex-segregated. They haven't been separated on the basis of gender label or gender identity, but on objective sex. Over the past few years, that has changed, and several US states, along with Canada, and parts of the UK & Ireland, have decided that prisoners should be housed according to their gender identity, rather than their sex. I, along with nearly all female inmates, think this is a monumentally bad idea that puts female prisoners at risk.

What are your thoughts on how gender identity should be handled in prisons?
difficult question,
I don't think gender(being a variable) should override sex(being a constant) if they are in opposition to each other.
That's my simple off the cuff answer, I would have to think about it more to get to the truth of it though.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:00 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Copout. Answer the question actually asked.

You treat women and men differently because they are women and men, because there is a variable there. If there is no variable there "transgender" is totally meaningless.

Let's see how much virtual breathe you waste trying to make a distinction without difference before falling back on "Shut you're a transphobe."
You're acting like this is a competition or something, it's not. You're taking both sides of a convo and getting annoyed by my imagined answers.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
You're acting like this is a competition or something, it's not. You're taking both sides of a convo and getting annoyed by my imagined answers.
That's fair. Your actual answers are already annoying enough,though.
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Old 14th September 2021, 07:09 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Give us an example of your approach in practice. Give us an example of a friend or acquaintance of your s, who told you what being treated like a woman meant to them, and how you treated them that way.
I don't quite understand why you are focusing on 'treated like a woman', but I have relatives that prefer he/him whilst being female, others that prefer she/her whilst being male, and others that prefer they/they whilst being whatever.

edit:
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's fair. Your actual answers are already annoying enough,though.
Why are my answers annoying?

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Old 14th September 2021, 08:23 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I disagree,
from what I can work out, woman is a gender label so rpg it, whatever.
Human? Won't anyone think about the A.I's?

Female is a physical description, I don't think that can rpg'ed at all.

A female is a female, a male is a male, everything else seems to be a variable.
That's the language I've been using for a while. I realized, at some point, that the arguments about the meaning of "woman" were arguments about the meaning of words, and words can mean whatever you want.

However, reality doesn't change, so, as part of the post where I said I would use those terms (i.e. woman is a gender and female is a sex) I said that we should take down all the locker room signs that said "women", and replace them with signs that said "female", and we should have "female" sports divisions instead of girls' sports divisions.

I'm pretty sure that still made me a TERF.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:34 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I get the place you're coming from, p0lka. And it's a very nice and compassionate place.

The challenge is that self-identification, adopting a gender label based on feelings alone, results in a conflict. Specifically, gender identity frequently conflicts with sex class. At the end of the day, a male who identifies as a woman is not actually female. And vice versa.

Which leads to situations where one or the other of those characteristics needs to take precedence.

So let's start with my current top issue: prisons.

Prisons have long been sex-segregated. They haven't been separated on the basis of gender label or gender identity, but on objective sex. Over the past few years, that has changed, and several US states, along with Canada, and parts of the UK & Ireland, have decided that prisoners should be housed according to their gender identity, rather than their sex. I, along with nearly all female inmates, think this is a monumentally bad idea that puts female prisoners at risk.

What are your thoughts on how gender identity should be handled in prisons?
I trust you have a citation for that.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:40 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What should happen when an adult human male, with fully intact male genitalia, with not hormone treatment at all, adopts the gender label of "woman"?
Perhaps the solution to prevent further Wi Spa incidents is to designate the former "women only" area to "no penis" area. This way people can adopt whatever label/gender/designation they want and those who do not wish to see a penis can avoid it.

Last edited by Alt+F4; 15th September 2021 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:55 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I treat everyone differently,
Perhaps. But that's frequently not worthwhile.

Quote:
according to how they would like to be treated.
Well, no. Obviously you don't. Oh, I'm sure you frequently extend certain courtesies to people which they desire, but only within bounds that you have set. And when they want to be treated outside the bounds that you set, no, you absolutely won't treat them the way that they want to be treated. And that is right and proper, to do otherwise is simply to invite being exploited and victimized yourself. The only question is, where do you set the limits of what you're willing to accommodate? Because I guarantee that you have limits somewhere.
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Old 15th September 2021, 06:17 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
So... If Eddie Izzard and Alex Drummond were to commit crimes that land them in jail... would you argue that they be placed in the male prison or the female prison? Both have declared themselves to be transwomen, both identify as women, neither have had (nor plan to have) any hormone therapy, neither have had (nor plan to have) any surgical alterations. Yet neither is closeted.
Eddie Izzard plans to have sex reassignment surgery. On hormone use, the article states:
Quote:
However, when asked whether she is taking the hormone pills, she replied that she is happy about her transition but would like to keep certain things of her life private.
I think it is likely that she does take/has taken hormones.
Quote:
Do they count as "women" to you? Do they gain access to female spaces, honors, shelters, and prisons as a right?
I think it is pretty obvious by now what I think of segregation, especially when it is used to paper over more fundamental problems. It shouldn't matter whether a person "counts as a woman". Access should be regulated based on what is practical.
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Old 15th September 2021, 06:38 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The vast majority of people on the planet are attracted to people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are in alignment with each other.
The study is about whether people would date people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are not in perfect alignment with each other.

Quote:
This is what happens when someone somewhere tries to redefine sexual orientation to be "gender identity orientation" instead. Then you end up with researchers being surprised that gay males are attracted to other males, regardless of their presentation, and that gay females are attracted to other females.
You don't think it is surprising that gay males are attracted to people who don't look like males, and lesbians are attraced to people who do?

50% of trans-inclusive straight men would rather enter a homosexual relationship with a transman (who wouldn't want that relationship unless they are accepted as being a man) rather than a straight relationship with someone who looks like a woman, and you don't think that is a bit odd? My guess is that a lot of the respondents didn't quite understand the question. You'd be surprised how many people think transmen are m2f and transwomen are f2m.
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Old 15th September 2021, 06:58 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
50% of trans-inclusive straight men would rather enter a homosexual relationship with a transman...
That isn't a homosexual relationship. I guess you could call it a homogendered relationship.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:05 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
You don't think it is surprising that gay males are attracted to people who don't look like males, and lesbians are attraced to people who do?
You're trying too hard to ignore the truth. The truth is that males still look like males, and females still look like females. Primary and secondary sex indicators are not magically transformed by fiat self-ID, or by going about in drag. You know this. Everyone knows this. Pretending otherwise just makes you look insane.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:08 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heterosexuals don't have to apologize to anyone for their sexual turn-ons and turn-offs. Homosexuals don't have to justify their sexual attractions to any damn person. Transsexuals don't have to apologize. Why should cissexuals have to?
Nobody has to apologise for anything. For everybody it is true; either you like someone, or you don't.

But if someone insists that they need to subject someone to a chromosomal test before they can decide whether or not they like them, I think that is a bit weird. No kinkshaming.
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