Ongoing Adventures of Kyle Rittenhouse - Page 4

Ziggurat · 28th December 2021, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

He carried a small kitchen fire extinguisher borrowed from Black's house. He was not going to extinguish much beyond a campfire with that.

Large fires usually start small.

Thermal · 28th December 2021, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Large fires usually start small.

And large mobs of arsonists usually start more than one small fire.

If the little punk had bought ten little fire extinguishers and stored them with his LARPer buddies instead of a rifle and thirty rounds of .223, it would speak far more positively to his intentions that night. What he spent effort and money on was shooting people, and that's it. A small prop borrowed from a friend does not negate that.

Ziggurat · 28th December 2021, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

And large mobs of arsonists usually start more than one small fire.

Most of the people there were not arsonists. Only a few (like Rosenbaum) were.

Quote:

If the little punk had bought ten little fire extinguishers and stored them with his LARPer buddies instead of a rifle and thirty rounds of .223, it would speak far more positively to his intentions that night. What he spent effort and money on was shooting people, and that's it. A small prop borrowed from a friend does not negate that.

He didn't buy the gun for that night. Your comparison is obvious crap.

Thermal · 28th December 2021, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Most of the people there were not arsonists. Only a few (like Rosenbaum) were.

So? We are talking about what Kyle prepared for. The town had widespread arson on the previous nights. His little kitchen fire extinguisher was useless at that scale. Had he dropped a few bucks on a backpack full of them, again, he would have some credibility. A bull **** prop is a bull **** prop.

Quote:

He didn't buy the gun for that night. Your comparison is obvious crap.

Yeah, the only thing he found worthy of spending money on was a sling. For the rifle. That he made sure to load thirty rounds in. And fired some of them, killing and maiming people.

What he made ample preparations for for is what he proceeded to do. That's it.

Ziggurat · 28th December 2021, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

So? We are talking about what Kyle prepared for. The town had widespread arson on the previous nights. His little kitchen fire extinguisher was useless at that scale.

It's useless in preventing all fires at all locations, sure.

That doesn't mean it's useless. Stopping one fire can accomplish quite a lot.

Quote:

Had he dropped a few bucks on a backpack full of them, again, he would have some credibility.

You keep trying to come up with after-the-fact standards to apply in order to invalidate his efforts. This is a very tempting tactic to use, especially in cases where things go sideways, but it's still bull ****.

People have a right to try to protect property. They even have the right to do so sub-optimally. Yet somehow, the one thing you WON'T rage against is the people actually intent on destroying property.

carlitos · 28th December 2021, 11:58 AM

Because it's off topic.

BobTheCoward · 28th December 2021, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by cmikes

Same with Maurice Freeland, the man who attempted to kick Rittenhouse in the face with heavy work boots. Rittenhouse managed to get his arm up between the boot and his face, but if hadn't, how long do you think Rittenhouse would have lasted after he was unconscious?

.

Decades

plague311 · 28th December 2021, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Decades

Don't be foolish, he would have still had to sleep.

Thermal · 28th December 2021, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

It's useless in preventing all fires at all locations, sure.

That doesn't mean it's useless. Stopping one fire can accomplish quite a lot.

Of course it would have a small use. That's exactly what Kyle prepared for with it; a very piddling attempt at a single small fire. What he more substantially prepared for was putting 30 high powered rounds into human beings.

Quote:

You keep trying to come up with after-the-fact standards to apply in order to invalidate his efforts. This is a very tempting tactic to use, especially in cases where things go sideways, but it's still bull ****.

Negative. Carrying a gun is my up-front standard. If you carry one, your intent is to kill. Period. It may be justifiable, it may not. But that is your avowed intent over any other consideration: you want the ability to kill. No sugar coaring with euphemisms about self-defense if you make no defensive efforts or expenditures and only focus on a killing tool. That's what you want to do.

Quote:

People have a right to try to protect property. They even have the right to do so sub-optimally.

And Kyle was in no way prepared to protect the stranger's trashed car lot beyond the quickie squirt. The odds are pretty slim that he would have made any difference with that, in light of the previous two nights of widespread devastation. It was testified in court that only Kyle brought the only fire extinguisher. I'm sure the other play soldiers just forgot. They sure did remember their rifles and laser pointers to threaten the protesters with, though.

Quote:

Yet somehow, the one thing you WON'T rage against is the people actually intent on destroying property.

Again, negatory. They were criminals. Although on that night they were not violent till the police pushed them down Sheridan till they met the rifle boys.

The rifle boys did not stop a damn thing, and many of us think they provoked the hostilities that night. Debatable, of course. But if you want to take on a mob, and you have nothing but rifles and a single kitchen fire extinguisher, what exactly are you going to do?

I've put this question to you and others, with no answer. What exactly could Kyle and the "Kenosha Guard", complete with their underage conscripts, do to protect this trashed car lot? We've established that they had one small kitchen fire extinguisher. So they could put out a small fire. Not that he had any training with putting out a burning car with gas tank and other compressed chemicals. Nor did he have a respirator or flame resistant clothing. He was wearing a t-shirt, IIRC? So he was in no way prepared to protect Kenosha from much more than a carelessly flicked cigarette.

Ziggurat · 28th December 2021, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Negative. Carrying a gun is my up-front standard. If you carry one, your intent is to kill. Period.

That's just stupid. But even more than that, if that's really your standard, then none of the other bull **** excuses you came up with even matter. You should have just said this from the start, and then I'd know that there's no point in discussing this any further.

Craig4 · 28th December 2021, 08:33 PM

Do you think Pirro on Ingrahm cougared him out of his virginity?

webfusion · 28th December 2021, 09:01 PM

He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge ---
https://www.rittenhousehotel.com

================

Quick correction: The fire extinguisher carried along by Kyle in haste to CarSource3 was not taken from Black's home, but rather, proffered by another citizen at the Ultimate gas station.
Also, there was a brief interaction captured on video (and shown in court) between Kyle and some others who came along carrying small fire extinguishers at the same time when he and Ryan Balsh became separated across the street from Ultimate. The use of these small fire-fighting devices was apparently effective that night, to stop little blazes from expanding into big ones, and Kyle was not the only one using them.

mgidm86 · 29th December 2021, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge ---
https://www.rittenhousehotel.com

================

Quick correction: The fire extinguisher carried along by Kyle in haste to CarSource3 was not taken from Black's home, but rather, proffered by another citizen at the Ultimate gas station.
Also, there was a brief interaction captured on video (and shown in court) between Kyle and some others who came along carrying small fire extinguishers at the same time when he and Ryan Balsh became separated across the street from Ultimate. The use of these small fire-fighting devices was apparently effective that night, to stop little blazes from expanding into big ones, and Kyle was not the only one using them.

Are you claiming that Kyle put out a fire(s)? Not sure by your wording.

I see that the claim that Rittenhouse put out a dumpster fire is false, as stated by his own attorneys. Are there any other claims?

autumn1971 · 29th December 2021, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge ---
https://www.rittenhousehotel.com

================

Quick correction: The fire extinguisher carried along by Kyle in haste to CarSource3 was not taken from Black's home, but rather, proffered by another citizen at the Ultimate gas station.
Also, there was a brief interaction captured on video (and shown in court) between Kyle and some others who came along carrying small fire extinguishers at the same time when he and Ryan Balsh became separated across the street from Ultimate. The use of these small fire-fighting devices was apparently effective that night, to stop little blazes from expanding into big ones, and Kyle was not the only one using them.

********. Those types of extinguishers can maybe stop a single small pan with a contained grease-fire.

One of them could never put out even the smallest of campfires.

You walk into my protest brandishing a weapon and then shot someone?

I’ll make you eat that fire extinguisher

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by autumn1971

********. Those types of extinguishers can maybe stop a single small pan with a contained grease-fire.
One of them could never put out even the smallest of campfires.

Several people were using them to extinguish fires. Including dumpster fires.
Your claim that they could not be effective is debunked right there.

During direct examination of Kyle Rittenhouse, Prosecutor Binger introduced video taken by Richie McGinnis, as he followed Kyle and Ryan along Sheridan Road, when they departed from CarSource and proceeded beyond the police lines towards the Ultimate location.
That video can be seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG8PhtFrO0Y (starting at 1:31:30) and you will notice several citizens carrying fire extinguishers, as they appear into the scene from the right, encountering the two armed men.
From my limited understanding, the people in this small grouping were peaceful protestors, and they had ostensibly been trying to prevent violent arsonist protestors lighting fires. The skateboard dude had two slung over his shoulder, the injured guy (he had been shot by the police with a non-lethal round in his shoulder earlier) had one, and the blonde girl had a small extinguisher in her hand.
These Kenosha citizens were doing what they could to maintain some semblance of level-headedness within that night of chaos.

Originally Posted by autumn1971

You walk into my protest brandishing a weapon and then shot someone?
I’ll make you eat that fire extinguisher

Kyle Rittenhouse intended to put out the fire in the SUV. (dubbed "The Duramax")
As he came upon the flaming vehicle, Joshua Ziminski confronted him with a handgun drawn, as Joseph Rosenbaum ran up from his hiding spot behind cars and Kyle instantly realized what these men were intending, namely, a brazen armed robbery of his AR15.
And potentially his own demise.

That is what happened.
That is why the jury found him Not Guilty of 'murdering' Rosenbum. (the 'someone' you referred to).

kookbreaker · 29th December 2021, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge ---
https://www.rittenhousehotel.com
.

I'm sure you are joking, but Rittenhouse (or its unanglophied spelling: Rettinghaus) is an honorable name in Philadelphia, so we don't want Kyle's stain on it.

carlitos · 29th December 2021, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by Craig4

Do you think Pirro on Ingrahm cougared him out of his virginity?

Eww. She was booking a bunch of hotel rooms for the Jan 6 people, so maybe she gets a good deal.

There was at least one "Kiss me Kyle" sign at the AmericaFest get-together. Also, he's posting photos on social media from "the mountains" so there could be a ski bunny thing. Honestly, I hope he's getting laid left and right - he'll probably be happier and maybe less harmful that way.

plague311 · 29th December 2021, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Honestly, I hope he's getting laid left and right

He could make t-shirts. "I took a shot from Kyle and lived!"

cmikes · 29th December 2021, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by fishbob

See post 114.
Armed man just shot somebody.
You wonder why others might take this as threatening?
You ever consider that they might be 'standing their ground' with a skateboard and boots?

You're ignoring causality and linear time here. You seem to be claiming that the group attacked Rittenhouse because he defended himself when they attacked him? What?

Besides which, we know from the trial why Rittenhouse was attacked. They were pissed that Rittenhouse and others were going around putting out fires after being assured by the political leaders of Kenosha that the town would be a sacrifice to BLM and that the police and fire department wouldn't try to save the town. And here were these stupid Bourgeoisie who didn't get the memo and wasn't allowing BLM to have their fun. Which makes all the "Fire extinguishers to put out fires? How preposterous!" Monday morning quarterbacking in this thread all the funnier.

How else do you explain Rosenbaum's explicit death threat to Rittenhouse and the other defenders? "If I catch any of you [people protecting the town] alone, I'll kill you" is pretty clear, and pretty clearly exactly what they were attempting to do. But no, let's just ignore that and assume they must have had a good reason to attack Rittenhouse when he was lured away and separated from the other defenders. It can't have anything to do with the prior death threats.

No, they knew that if they attacked Rittenhouse, he would defend himself giving them the perfect excuse to attack him.

thaiboxerken · 29th December 2021, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by cmikes

You're ignoring causality and linear time here. You seem to be claiming that the group attacked Rittenhouse because he defended himself when they attacked him? What?

Besides which, we know from the trial why Rittenhouse was attacked. They were pissed that Rittenhouse and others were going around putting out fires after being assured by the political leaders of Kenosha that the town would be a sacrifice to BLM and that the police and fire department wouldn't try to save the town. And here were these stupid Bourgeoisie who didn't get the memo and wasn't allowing BLM to have their fun. Which makes all the "Fire extinguishers to put out fires? How preposterous!" Monday morning quarterbacking in this thread all the funnier.

How else do you explain Rosenbaum's explicit death threat to Rittenhouse and the other defenders? "If I catch any of you [people protecting the town] alone, I'll kill you" is pretty clear, and pretty clearly exactly what they were attempting to do. But no, let's just ignore that and assume they must have had a good reason to attack Rittenhouse when he was lured away and separated from the other defenders. It can't have anything to do with the prior death threats.

No, they knew that if they attacked Rittenhouse, he would defend himself giving them the perfect excuse to attack him.

Nonsense. Rittenhouse was attacked because he provoked the crowd for the purpose of having and excuse to "defend himself" with deadly force.

BobTheCoward · 29th December 2021, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by webfusion

Kyle Rittenhouse intended to put out the fire in the SUV. (dubbed "The Duramax")
As he came upon the flaming vehicle, Joshua Ziminski confronted him with a handgun drawn, as Joseph Rosenbaum ran up from his hiding spot behind cars and Kyle instantly realized what these men were intending, namely, a brazen armed robbery of his AR15.
And potentially his own demise.

That is what happened.
That is why the jury found him Not Guilty of 'murdering' Rosenbum. (the 'someone' you referred to).

Is that a situation that warrants deadly force?

dann · 29th December 2021, 11:13 AM

Definitely! You should always be armed with an AR15, so you can defend yourself in case somebody tries to steal it from you. In fact, you should probably have two, just in case. And maybe an explosive belt for deterrence.

plague311 · 29th December 2021, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by cmikes

How else do you explain Rosenbaum's explicit death threat to Rittenhouse and the other defenders? "If I catch any of you [people protecting the town] alone, I'll kill you" is pretty clear, and pretty clearly exactly what they were attempting to do. But no, let's just ignore that and assume they must have had a good reason to attack Rittenhouse when he was lured away and separated from the other defenders. It can't have anything to do with the prior death threats.

pffhahahahahaha that is knee slappingly funny. I mean, coffee out my nose type of funny.

I guess we just get to add whatever we want in to statements now, right? Let me do one:

Quote:

"If I catch any of you [feeding a stranger in the alps] alone, I'll kill you"

How about:

Quote:

"If I catch any of you [feigning to be here to protect the town instead of the real reason, personifying tiny penis syndrome,] alone, I'll kill you"

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Is that a situation that warrants deadly force?

The jury of 12 felt it was, indeed, yes.

also --- thaiboxerken: Nonsense. Rittenhouse was attacked because he provoked the crowd for the purpose of having an excuse to "defend himself" with deadly force.

The 'crowd' was not provoked into attacking him. This is actually you spouting nonsense here.
Did you even watch ANY of the trial? It seems not.

By the way, I notice that D-A Michael Graveley in Kenosha is seeking further information from the public regarding rioters.
https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/loc...898025bf2.html
A new website will be launched in January that will include all the pending cases, with photographs, more than 100, of those who have yet to be identified. Visitors to the site will be able to view all the photographs, and if they have information, a direct link will take them to the Kenosha Police Department Detective Bureau.

One notable case that is already going to trial -- Joshua J. Ziminski, 3400 block of Ivy Lane, Racine, WI; felony arson, misdemeanor disorderly conduct, misdemeanor obstructing.
His jury selection will begin Jan. 31.

cmikes · 29th December 2021, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Nonsense. Rittenhouse was attacked because he provoked the crowd for the purpose of having and excuse to "defend himself" with deadly force.

Well, you're right in the sense that Rittenhouse "provoked" the crowd by putting out the fires that they were setting.

But the second part of your claim doesn't make any sense. If Rittenhouse's motive in provoking the crowd by putting out the fires they were setting was having an excuse to defend himself, why didn't he at first? If the point of putting out the fires wasn't to protect the town, but to have an excuse to shoot people, why was his first reaction to the ambush to run away towards the police line? If he wanted to shoot people, why run away and try to get to safety and only defend himself when he was cut off and knocked to the ground? Why not defend himself in the first place and not wait until he was literally seconds from being killed?

cmikes · 29th December 2021, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

pffhahahahahaha that is knee slappingly funny. I mean, coffee out my nose type of funny.

I guess we just get to add whatever we want in to statements now, right? Let me do one:

How about:

Is your claim that Rosenbaum threatened to kill the people trying to defend the town because they were going to feed strangers in the Alps? Or did he threaten to kill any of them that he found alone because they were trying to keep him and his pals from destroying the town?

Did you follow the trial and the evidence at all or you just making it up as you go along?

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

pffhahahahahaha that is knee slappingly funny. I mean, coffee out my nose type of funny.
I guess we just get to add whatever we want in to statements now, right?

That statement about people being there protecting property was provided on the stand by JoAnn Fiedler, who carried her own handgun (in a holster on her hip, openly) as she stood guard at CarSource.
I am not sure why you find her testimony to be "knee slappingly funny" --- it seemed more to me that it was quite heart-felt and honest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx2oFLYRym0 40 minutes of her testimony

She heard Rosenbaum threaten to kill these citizens. Specifically.
(from timestamp 14:30 she begins the narrative and at 16:25 JoAnn expounds on Rosenbaum's expletive-laden words and his violent action --- of throwing a chemical bomb).

plague311, I don't know what you are still doing here, making excuses and trying to handwave the reasons various citizens chose to carry their personal weapons that night.

Thermal · 29th December 2021, 12:30 PM

Whelp. I guess we're gonna become Knox Thread people over this little putz.

plague311 · 29th December 2021, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by cmikes

Is your claim that Rosenbaum threatened to kill the people trying to defend the town because they were going to feed strangers in the Alps? Or did he threaten to kill any of them that he found alone because they were trying to keep him and his pals from destroying the town?

Did you follow the trial and the evidence at all or you just making it up as you go along?

Check this out, I'm going to blow your ******* mind. How about if Rosenbaum threatened to kill people because he felt threatened by people carrying guns around? Or, how about, we don't know Rosenbaum was thinking because he obviously had mental issues that were apparent that night?

You're the one inserting your narrative into it. You added the statement. I didn't. Show your work.

Originally Posted by webfusion

plague311, I don't know what you are still doing here, making excuses and trying to handwave the reasons various citizens chose to carry their personal weapons that night.

Strawman. I don't what you're still doing here, either. So there, we're both confused by each others actions.

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by cmikes

Well, you're right in the sense that Rittenhouse "provoked" the crowd by putting out the fires that they were setting.

But the second part of your claim doesn't make any sense. If Rittenhouse's motive in provoking the crowd by putting out the fires they were setting was having an excuse to defend himself, why didn't he at first? If the point of putting out the fires wasn't to protect the town, but to have an excuse to shoot people, why was his first reaction to the ambush to run away towards the police line? If he wanted to shoot people, why run away and try to get to safety and only defend himself when he was cut off and knocked to the ground? Why not defend himself in the first place and not wait until he was literally seconds from being killed?

A few points of order, cmikes.
1. Rittenhouse was not engaged in putting out any fires, prior to him grabbing a fire extinguisher from someone at Ultimate location and going down Sheridan Road to deal with the increasingly volatile situation at CarSource3 (where he was then ambushed by the Ziminski couple -- 'Bonnie & Clyde' -- and Rosenbaum)

2. Immediately upon facing the armed Ziminski, his first reaction was to set down/drop that fire extinguisher and get both hands on his rifle. Rosenbaum suddenly appeared from behind parked cars, and Kyle ran away from these threatening actors, racing across the parking lot (not towards the police lines) with Rosenbaum in hot pursuit (and throwing the bag) while Ziminski opened fire with his own gun.

3. After Rosenbaum was neutralized, Kyle stopped for a few seconds to review the scene, quickly called Black to say he had shot someone -- "I had no choice" and then within that commotion (including more gunshots echoing) he started to move quickly northbound up Sheridan Road, towards the police Bearcats at the Ultimate location at 60th street.

4. It was during this run that he was struck in the head by a chunk of rock (his hat flew off); hit by Huber's skateboard the first time; attacked by Maurice Freeland's flying kick; sliced in the neck/shoulder by Huber's second attempt at 'cranium-ing" him; and then having Grosskreutz come right up to him with a drawn handgun.

Let us remember one thing, there was an individual right alongside Grosskreutz, who initially was moving towards the prone/sitting Rittenhouse, and he backed off, and thus no shots were fired at him.

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 12:50 PM

plague311, these citizens carrying guns were engaged in legal activity. Both by Wisconsin Statute and by the United States Constitution - Bill of Rights.
Rosenbaum and Ziminski were breaking laws that night by making death threats and committing arson and throwing chemical bombs and brandishing/firing illegal handguns --- not the citizens.

I am here to keep correcting the record, which you persist on falsifying.

plague311 · 29th December 2021, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

plague311, these citizens carrying guns were engaged in legal activity.

No, they weren't. There was a curfew in effect.

Originally Posted by webfusion

Both by Wisconsin Statute and by the United States Constitution - Bill of Rights.

*checks bingo card for 'Constitution and Bill of Rights' spots*

Awesome, if you could just bring up "mah freedumz" I'll have a bingo.

Originally Posted by webfusion

Rosenbaum and Ziminski were breaking laws that night by making death threats and committing arson and throwing chemical bombs and brandishing/firing illegal handguns --- not the citizens.

Uh, wasn't Kyle's gun illegal? You are ******* terrible at stating facts so far.

Originally Posted by webfusion

I am here to keep correcting the record,

You're doing a **** job, if I do say so myself.

Originally Posted by webfusion

which you persist on falsifying.

Riigghht

carlitos · 29th December 2021, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

plague311, these citizens carrying guns were engaged in legal activity. Both by Wisconsin Statute and by the United States Constitution - Bill of Rights.

......

Kyle Rittenhouse wasn't just violating the riot curfew; he was only 17 years old, so he was in violation of the regular weeknight curfew in Kenosha, which is 10:30 on weekdays.

Originally Posted by webfusion

I am here to keep correcting the record, which you persist on falsifying.

Hahahahahahahaha, nope.

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by plague311

No, they weren't. There was a curfew in effect.

In the trial, this item was dismissed. Have you not been paying attention?

Originally Posted by plague311

*checks bingo card for 'Constitution and Bill of Rights' spots*
Awesome, if you could just bring up "mah freedumz" I'll have a bingo.

Poisoning the well, and ridicule of the US Constitution, nice going.

Originally Posted by plague311

Uh, wasn't Kyle's gun illegal? You are ******* terrible at stating facts so far.

Uh, no.
It wasn't his gun, it was legally Dominick Black's (that court case is open and has not yet been adjudicated, so we have to assume Black is innocent of wrongdoing until proven guilty) Furthermore, Kyle had the presiding judge in his case decide it WAS NOT illegal for him to carry around.
In Rittenhouse's trial, this item was dismissed. Have you not been paying attention?

Originally Posted by plague311

You're doing a **** job, if I do say so myself.

Well, I have offered links, video evidence, detailed descriptions of known facts, and corrected the overt misstatements and errors of facts, so you can say whatever you want, but I'll stick to my proper course of action, regardless of your opinion.

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Kyle Rittenhouse wasn't just violating the riot curfew; he was only 17 years old, so he was in violation of the regular weeknight curfew in Kenosha, which is 10:30 on weekdays.

As it happens, the City Ordinance 11.05 you quoted has an exception--
"This Section shall... not apply in circumstances in which the
minor was exercising First Amendment rights protected by the United States Constitution or the Wisconsin Constitution, including freedom of speech, the free exercise of religion and/or the right of assembly."

Go fish.
This is all just a red herring, as the charge was dismissed and you can't say "He was violating 11.05" because the Kenosha Court found otherwise, sui juris.

plague311 · 29th December 2021, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by webfusion

In the trial, this item was dismissed. Have you not been paying attention?

It being dismissed does not mean that there wasn't a curfew in effect, and that these people weren't out past curfew. Have you not been paying attention?

Originally Posted by webfusion

Poisoning the well, and ridicule of the US Constitution, nice going.

**** the US Constitution. Also, learn what "poisoning the well" means, because I have no idea how it would pertain to my statement. If you think I have the same hard-on for the Constitution that you guys do, you're sadly mistaken. Even the founding fathers said that it should change periodically. If you think it bothers me that I "ridicule(d) the Constitution" then you're just wrong.

Originally Posted by webfusion

Uh, no.
It wasn't his gun, it was legally Dominick Black's (that court case is open and has not yet been adjudicated, so we have to assume Black is innocent of wrongdoing until proven guilty)

Did Kyle pay for it? Was Kyle carrying it? Then it was Kyle's gun.

Originally Posted by webfusion

Furthermore, Kyle had the presiding judge in his case decide it WAS NOT illegal for him to carry around.
In Rittenhouse's trial, this item was dismissed. Have you not been paying attention?

Well, then. As we know, judges never get anything wrong, ever. That's why there is no such thing as an appeals process, because judges are right 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by webfusion

Well, I have offered links, video evidence, detailed descriptions of known facts, and corrected the overt misstatements and errors of facts, so you can say whatever you want, but I'll stick to my proper course of action, regardless of your opinion.

Stick to whatever you want. I really don't care what you think or what your opinion is and it means little to me that we disagree. You're way, Way, WAY more invested in the Kyle bull **** than I am. None of this means anything to me at all, but to be frank there isn't a lot going on around here, and I wanted to see what the mouthbreathers in the right wing media were saying\doing with Rittenhouse lately.

Warp12 · 29th December 2021, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

Whelp. I guess we're gonna become Knox Thread people over this little putz.

It is the ISF way. Argue continuously over the same points, sometimes for years, while knowing damn well that nobody is going to change their mind.

But really, I think most of this argument belongs in the existing thread on the trial. The mods already did one clean up, here.

thaiboxerken · 29th December 2021, 02:34 PM

If Kyle's killing of people was in self-defense, why are right-wingers celebrating his killing of all the libruls? Why is he a hero?

BobTheCoward · 29th December 2021, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

If Kyle's killing of people was in self-defense, why are right-wingers celebrating his killing of all the libruls? Why is he a hero?

Why are people that fought imperial Japan at Pearl Harbor heroes? That was in self defense.

webfusion · 29th December 2021, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

If Kyle's killing of people was in self-defense, why are right-wingers celebrating his killing of all the libruls? Why is he a hero?

The word "IF" is not appropriate here.

Kyle shot one raging man who was literally clinically insane, and did so because he feared for his own life while facing an attack.

He then had to defend himself (lawfully) against further attacks, from men named Maurice Freeland, Anthony Huber and Gaige Grosskreutz. Two of them were not killed, one was.

Kyle did not shoot nor kill 'all the libruls' on the night of August 25th. Why is he a hero? Because he used the weapon appropriately and within the bounds of law.

He is looked up to by many in America because he has been vindicated by the manner he handled himself in the face of clear and present threats.

The mere presence of this thread in the Forum indicates 'sour grapes' on the part of carlitos, and others.

28th December 2021, 09:21 AM	#121
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,938	Originally Posted by Thermal He carried a small kitchen fire extinguisher borrowed from Black's house. He was not going to extinguish much beyond a campfire with that. Large fires usually start small.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

28th December 2021, 09:34 AM	#122
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section) Posts: 19,505	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Large fires usually start small. And large mobs of arsonists usually start more than one small fire. If the little punk had bought ten little fire extinguishers and stored them with his LARPer buddies instead of a rifle and thirty rounds of .223, it would speak far more positively to his intentions that night. What he spent effort and money on was shooting people, and that's it. A small prop borrowed from a friend does not negate that.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

28th December 2021, 09:50 AM	#123
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,938	Originally Posted by Thermal And large mobs of arsonists usually start more than one small fire. Most of the people there were not arsonists. Only a few (like Rosenbaum) were. Quote: If the little punk had bought ten little fire extinguishers and stored them with his LARPer buddies instead of a rifle and thirty rounds of .223, it would speak far more positively to his intentions that night. What he spent effort and money on was shooting people, and that's it. A small prop borrowed from a friend does not negate that. He didn't buy the gun for that night. Your comparison is obvious crap.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

28th December 2021, 10:08 AM	#124
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section) Posts: 19,505	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Most of the people there were not arsonists. Only a few (like Rosenbaum) were. So? We are talking about what Kyle prepared for. The town had widespread arson on the previous nights. His little kitchen fire extinguisher was useless at that scale. Had he dropped a few bucks on a backpack full of them, again, he would have some credibility. A bull ** prop is a bull ** prop. Quote: He didn't buy the gun for that night. Your comparison is obvious crap. Yeah, the only thing he found worthy of spending money on was a sling. For the rifle. That he made sure to load thirty rounds in. And fired some of them, killing and maiming people. What he made ample preparations for for is what he proceeded to do. That's it.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

28th December 2021, 11:46 AM	#125
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,938	Originally Posted by Thermal So? We are talking about what Kyle prepared for. The town had widespread arson on the previous nights. His little kitchen fire extinguisher was useless at that scale. It's useless in preventing all fires at all locations, sure. That doesn't mean it's useless. Stopping one fire can accomplish quite a lot. Quote: Had he dropped a few bucks on a backpack full of them, again, he would have some credibility. You keep trying to come up with after-the-fact standards to apply in order to invalidate his efforts. This is a very tempting tactic to use, especially in cases where things go sideways, but it's still bull ****. People have a right to try to protect property. They even have the right to do so sub-optimally. Yet somehow, the one thing you WON'T rage against is the people actually intent on destroying property.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

28th December 2021, 11:58 AM	#126
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	Because it's off topic.

28th December 2021, 12:06 PM	#127
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,442	Originally Posted by cmikes Same with Maurice Freeland, the man who attempted to kick Rittenhouse in the face with heavy work boots. Rittenhouse managed to get his arm up between the boot and his face, but if hadn't, how long do you think Rittenhouse would have lasted after he was unconscious? . Decades

28th December 2021, 12:21 PM	#128
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,966	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Decades Don't be foolish, he would have still had to sleep.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

28th December 2021, 12:57 PM	#129
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section) Posts: 19,505	Originally Posted by Ziggurat It's useless in preventing all fires at all locations, sure. That doesn't mean it's useless. Stopping one fire can accomplish quite a lot. Of course it would have a small use. That's exactly what Kyle prepared for with it; a very piddling attempt at a single small fire. What he more substantially prepared for was putting 30 high powered rounds into human beings. Quote: You keep trying to come up with after-the-fact standards to apply in order to invalidate his efforts. This is a very tempting tactic to use, especially in cases where things go sideways, but it's still bull ****. Negative. Carrying a gun is my up-front standard. If you carry one, your intent is to kill. Period. It may be justifiable, it may not. But that is your avowed intent over any other consideration: you want the ability to kill. No sugar coaring with euphemisms about self-defense if you make no defensive efforts or expenditures and only focus on a killing tool. That's what you want to do. Quote: People have a right to try to protect property. They even have the right to do so sub-optimally. And Kyle was in no way prepared to protect the stranger's trashed car lot beyond the quickie squirt. The odds are pretty slim that he would have made any difference with that, in light of the previous two nights of widespread devastation. It was testified in court that only Kyle brought the only fire extinguisher. I'm sure the other play soldiers just forgot. They sure did remember their rifles and laser pointers to threaten the protesters with, though. Quote: Yet somehow, the one thing you WON'T rage against is the people actually intent on destroying property. Again, negatory. They were criminals. Although on that night they were not violent till the police pushed them down Sheridan till they met the rifle boys. The rifle boys did not stop a damn thing, and many of us think they provoked the hostilities that night. Debatable, of course. But if you want to take on a mob, and you have nothing but rifles and a single kitchen fire extinguisher, what exactly are you going to do? I've put this question to you and others, with no answer. What exactly could Kyle and the "Kenosha Guard", complete with their underage conscripts, do to protect this trashed car lot? We've established that they had one small kitchen fire extinguisher. So they could put out a small fire. Not that he had any training with putting out a burning car with gas tank and other compressed chemicals. Nor did he have a respirator or flame resistant clothing. He was wearing a t-shirt, IIRC? So he was in no way prepared to protect Kenosha from much more than a carelessly flicked cigarette.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain Last edited by Thermal; 28th December 2021 at 12:59 PM.

28th December 2021, 03:44 PM	#130
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 51,938	Originally Posted by Thermal Negative. Carrying a gun is my up-front standard. If you carry one, your intent is to kill. Period. That's just stupid. But even more than that, if that's really your standard, then none of the other bull **** excuses you came up with even matter. You should have just said this from the start, and then I'd know that there's no point in discussing this any further.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

28th December 2021, 08:33 PM	#131
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 25,647	Do you think Pirro on Ingrahm cougared him out of his virginity?

28th December 2021, 09:01 PM	#132
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge --- https://www.rittenhousehotel.com ================ Quick correction: The fire extinguisher carried along by Kyle in haste to CarSource3 was not taken from Black's home, but rather, proffered by another citizen at the Ultimate gas station. Also, there was a brief interaction captured on video (and shown in court) between Kyle and some others who came along carrying small fire extinguishers at the same time when he and Ryan Balsh became separated across the street from Ultimate. The use of these small fire-fighting devices was apparently effective that night, to stop little blazes from expanding into big ones, and Kyle was not the only one using them.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

29th December 2021, 12:22 AM	#133
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,890	Originally Posted by webfusion He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge --- https://www.rittenhousehotel.com ================ Quick correction: The fire extinguisher carried along by Kyle in haste to CarSource3 was not taken from Black's home, but rather, proffered by another citizen at the Ultimate gas station. Also, there was a brief interaction captured on video (and shown in court) between Kyle and some others who came along carrying small fire extinguishers at the same time when he and Ryan Balsh became separated across the street from Ultimate. The use of these small fire-fighting devices was apparently effective that night, to stop little blazes from expanding into big ones, and Kyle was not the only one using them. Are you claiming that Kyle put out a fire(s)? Not sure by your wording. I see that the claim that Rittenhouse put out a dumpster fire is false, as stated by his own attorneys. Are there any other claims?
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 7,890	__________________ Thanks and bye.

29th December 2021, 12:30 AM	#134
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,757	Originally Posted by webfusion He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge --- https://www.rittenhousehotel.com ================ Quick correction: The fire extinguisher carried along by Kyle in haste to CarSource3 was not taken from Black's home, but rather, proffered by another citizen at the Ultimate gas station. Also, there was a brief interaction captured on video (and shown in court) between Kyle and some others who came along carrying small fire extinguishers at the same time when he and Ryan Balsh became separated across the street from Ultimate. The use of these small fire-fighting devices was apparently effective that night, to stop little blazes from expanding into big ones, and Kyle was not the only one using them. ********. Those types of extinguishers can maybe stop a single small pan with a contained grease-fire. One of them could never put out even the smallest of campfires. You walk into my protest brandishing a weapon and then shot someone? I’ll make you eat that fire extinguisher
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3,757	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

29th December 2021, 02:33 AM	#135
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by autumn1971 ******. Those types of extinguishers can maybe stop a single small pan with a contained grease-fire. One of them could never put out even the smallest of campfires. Several people were using them to extinguish fires. Including dumpster fires. Your claim that they could not be effective is debunked right there. During direct examination of Kyle Rittenhouse, Prosecutor Binger introduced video taken by Richie McGinnis, as he followed Kyle and Ryan along Sheridan Road, when they departed from CarSource and proceeded beyond the police lines towards the Ultimate location. That video can be seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG8PhtFrO0Y (starting at 1:31:30) and you will notice several citizens carrying fire extinguishers, as they appear into the scene from the right, encountering the two armed men. From my limited understanding, the people in this small grouping were peaceful protestors, and they had ostensibly been trying to prevent violent arsonist protestors lighting fires. The skateboard dude had two slung over his shoulder, the injured guy (he had been shot by the police with a non-lethal round in his shoulder earlier) had one, and the blonde girl had a small extinguisher in her hand. These Kenosha citizens were doing what they could to maintain some semblance of level-headedness within that night of chaos. Originally Posted by autumn1971** You walk into my protest brandishing a weapon and then shot someone? I’ll make you eat that fire extinguisher Kyle Rittenhouse intended to put out the fire in the SUV. (dubbed "The Duramax") As he came upon the flaming vehicle, Joshua Ziminski confronted him with a handgun drawn, as Joseph Rosenbaum ran up from his hiding spot behind cars and Kyle instantly realized what these men were intending, namely, a brazen armed robbery of his AR15. And potentially his own demise. That is what happened. That is why the jury found him Not Guilty of 'murdering' Rosenbum. (the 'someone' you referred to).
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Last edited by webfusion; 29th December 2021 at 02:35 AM.

29th December 2021, 06:44 AM	#136
kookbreaker Evil Fokker Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 14,086	Originally Posted by webfusion He might find the owners of THIS hotel in Philadephia willing to hire him as a concierge --- https://www.rittenhousehotel.com . I'm sure you are joking, but Rittenhouse (or its unanglophied spelling: Rettinghaus) is an honorable name in Philadelphia, so we don't want Kyle's stain on it.
	__________________ www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun! Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.

29th December 2021, 07:07 AM	#137
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	Originally Posted by Craig4 Do you think Pirro on Ingrahm cougared him out of his virginity? Eww. She was booking a bunch of hotel rooms for the Jan 6 people, so maybe she gets a good deal. There was at least one "Kiss me Kyle" sign at the AmericaFest get-together. Also, he's posting photos on social media from "the mountains" so there could be a ski bunny thing. Honestly, I hope he's getting laid left and right - he'll probably be happier and maybe less harmful that way.

29th December 2021, 09:57 AM	#138
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,966	Originally Posted by carlitos Honestly, I hope he's getting laid left and right He could make t-shirts. "I took a shot from Kyle and lived!"
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

29th December 2021, 10:35 AM	#139
cmikes Muse Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 623	Originally Posted by fishbob See post 114. Armed man just shot somebody. You wonder why others might take this as threatening? You ever consider that they might be 'standing their ground' with a skateboard and boots? You're ignoring causality and linear time here. You seem to be claiming that the group attacked Rittenhouse because he defended himself when they attacked him? What? Besides which, we know from the trial why Rittenhouse was attacked. They were pissed that Rittenhouse and others were going around putting out fires after being assured by the political leaders of Kenosha that the town would be a sacrifice to BLM and that the police and fire department wouldn't try to save the town. And here were these stupid Bourgeoisie who didn't get the memo and wasn't allowing BLM to have their fun. Which makes all the "Fire extinguishers to put out fires? How preposterous!" Monday morning quarterbacking in this thread all the funnier. How else do you explain Rosenbaum's explicit death threat to Rittenhouse and the other defenders? "If I catch any of you [people protecting the town] alone, I'll kill you" is pretty clear, and pretty clearly exactly what they were attempting to do. But no, let's just ignore that and assume they must have had a good reason to attack Rittenhouse when he was lured away and separated from the other defenders. It can't have anything to do with the prior death threats. No, they knew that if they attacked Rittenhouse, he would defend himself giving them the perfect excuse to attack him.
cmikes Muse Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 623

29th December 2021, 10:41 AM	#140
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 32,190	Originally Posted by cmikes You're ignoring causality and linear time here. You seem to be claiming that the group attacked Rittenhouse because he defended himself when they attacked him? What? Besides which, we know from the trial why Rittenhouse was attacked. They were pissed that Rittenhouse and others were going around putting out fires after being assured by the political leaders of Kenosha that the town would be a sacrifice to BLM and that the police and fire department wouldn't try to save the town. And here were these stupid Bourgeoisie who didn't get the memo and wasn't allowing BLM to have their fun. Which makes all the "Fire extinguishers to put out fires? How preposterous!" Monday morning quarterbacking in this thread all the funnier. How else do you explain Rosenbaum's explicit death threat to Rittenhouse and the other defenders? "If I catch any of you [people protecting the town] alone, I'll kill you" is pretty clear, and pretty clearly exactly what they were attempting to do. But no, let's just ignore that and assume they must have had a good reason to attack Rittenhouse when he was lured away and separated from the other defenders. It can't have anything to do with the prior death threats. No, they knew that if they attacked Rittenhouse, he would defend himself giving them the perfect excuse to attack him. Nonsense. Rittenhouse was attacked because he provoked the crowd for the purpose of having and excuse to "defend himself" with deadly force.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

29th December 2021, 10:58 AM	#141
BobTheCoward Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,442	Originally Posted by webfusion Kyle Rittenhouse intended to put out the fire in the SUV. (dubbed "The Duramax") As he came upon the flaming vehicle, Joshua Ziminski confronted him with a handgun drawn, as Joseph Rosenbaum ran up from his hiding spot behind cars and Kyle instantly realized what these men were intending, namely, a brazen armed robbery of his AR15. And potentially his own demise. That is what happened. That is why the jury found him Not Guilty of 'murdering' Rosenbum. (the 'someone' you referred to). Is that a situation that warrants deadly force?

29th December 2021, 11:13 AM	#142
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 16,689	Definitely! You should always be armed with an AR15, so you can defend yourself in case somebody tries to steal it from you. In fact, you should probably have two, just in case. And maybe an explosive belt for deterrence.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

29th December 2021, 11:34 AM	#143
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,966	Originally Posted by cmikes How else do you explain Rosenbaum's explicit death threat to Rittenhouse and the other defenders? "If I catch any of you [people protecting the town] alone, I'll kill you" is pretty clear, and pretty clearly exactly what they were attempting to do. But no, let's just ignore that and assume they must have had a good reason to attack Rittenhouse when he was lured away and separated from the other defenders. It can't have anything to do with the prior death threats. pffhahahahahaha that is knee slappingly funny. I mean, coffee out my nose type of funny. I guess we just get to add whatever we want in to statements now, right? Let me do one: Quote: "If I catch any of you [feeding a stranger in the alps] alone, I'll kill you" How about: Quote: "If I catch any of you [feigning to be here to protect the town instead of the real reason, personifying tiny penis syndrome,] alone, I'll kill you"
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

29th December 2021, 11:48 AM	#144
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Is that a situation that warrants deadly force? The jury of 12 felt it was, indeed, yes. also --- thaiboxerken: Nonsense. Rittenhouse was attacked because he provoked the crowd for the purpose of having an excuse to "defend himself" with deadly force. The 'crowd' was not provoked into attacking him. This is actually you spouting nonsense here. Did you even watch ANY of the trial? It seems not. By the way, I notice that D-A Michael Graveley in Kenosha is seeking further information from the public regarding rioters. https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/loc...898025bf2.html A new website will be launched in January that will include all the pending cases, with photographs, more than 100, of those who have yet to be identified. Visitors to the site will be able to view all the photographs, and if they have information, a direct link will take them to the Kenosha Police Department Detective Bureau. One notable case that is already going to trial -- Joshua J. Ziminski, 3400 block of Ivy Lane, Racine, WI; felony arson, misdemeanor disorderly conduct, misdemeanor obstructing. His jury selection will begin Jan. 31.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

29th December 2021, 12:00 PM	#145
cmikes Muse Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 623	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken Nonsense. Rittenhouse was attacked because he provoked the crowd for the purpose of having and excuse to "defend himself" with deadly force. Well, you're right in the sense that Rittenhouse "provoked" the crowd by putting out the fires that they were setting. But the second part of your claim doesn't make any sense. If Rittenhouse's motive in provoking the crowd by putting out the fires they were setting was having an excuse to defend himself, why didn't he at first? If the point of putting out the fires wasn't to protect the town, but to have an excuse to shoot people, why was his first reaction to the ambush to run away towards the police line? If he wanted to shoot people, why run away and try to get to safety and only defend himself when he was cut off and knocked to the ground? Why not defend himself in the first place and not wait until he was literally seconds from being killed?
cmikes Muse Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 623

29th December 2021, 12:06 PM	#146
cmikes Muse Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 623	Originally Posted by plague311 pffhahahahahaha that is knee slappingly funny. I mean, coffee out my nose type of funny. I guess we just get to add whatever we want in to statements now, right? Let me do one: How about: Is your claim that Rosenbaum threatened to kill the people trying to defend the town because they were going to feed strangers in the Alps? Or did he threaten to kill any of them that he found alone because they were trying to keep him and his pals from destroying the town? Did you follow the trial and the evidence at all or you just making it up as you go along?
cmikes Muse Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 623

29th December 2021, 12:17 PM	#147
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by plague311 pffhahahahahaha that is knee slappingly funny. I mean, coffee out my nose type of funny. I guess we just get to add whatever we want in to statements now, right? That statement about people being there protecting property was provided on the stand by JoAnn Fiedler, who carried her own handgun (in a holster on her hip, openly) as she stood guard at CarSource. I am not sure why you find her testimony to be "knee slappingly funny" --- it seemed more to me that it was quite heart-felt and honest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx2oFLYRym0 40 minutes of her testimony She heard Rosenbaum threaten to kill these citizens. Specifically. (from timestamp 14:30 she begins the narrative and at 16:25 JoAnn expounds on Rosenbaum's expletive-laden words and his violent action --- of throwing a chemical bomb). plague311, I don't know what you are still doing here, making excuses and trying to handwave the reasons various citizens chose to carry their personal weapons that night.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

29th December 2021, 12:30 PM	#148
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: East Coast USA (in the Troll Ignoring Section) Posts: 19,505	Whelp. I guess we're gonna become Knox Thread people over this little putz.
	__________________ We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain

29th December 2021, 12:38 PM	#149
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,966	Originally Posted by cmikes Is your claim that Rosenbaum threatened to kill the people trying to defend the town because they were going to feed strangers in the Alps? Or did he threaten to kill any of them that he found alone because they were trying to keep him and his pals from destroying the town? Did you follow the trial and the evidence at all or you just making it up as you go along? Check this out, I'm going to blow your ***** mind. How about if Rosenbaum threatened to kill people because he felt threatened by people carrying guns around? Or, how about, we don't know Rosenbaum was thinking because he obviously had mental issues that were apparent that night? You're the one inserting your narrative into it. You added the statement. I didn't. Show your work. Originally Posted by webfusion** plague311, I don't know what you are still doing here, making excuses and trying to handwave the reasons various citizens chose to carry their personal weapons that night. Strawman. I don't what you're still doing here, either. So there, we're both confused by each others actions.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

29th December 2021, 12:42 PM	#150
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by cmikes Well, you're right in the sense that Rittenhouse "provoked" the crowd by putting out the fires that they were setting. But the second part of your claim doesn't make any sense. If Rittenhouse's motive in provoking the crowd by putting out the fires they were setting was having an excuse to defend himself, why didn't he at first? If the point of putting out the fires wasn't to protect the town, but to have an excuse to shoot people, why was his first reaction to the ambush to run away towards the police line? If he wanted to shoot people, why run away and try to get to safety and only defend himself when he was cut off and knocked to the ground? Why not defend himself in the first place and not wait until he was literally seconds from being killed? A few points of order, cmikes. 1. Rittenhouse was not engaged in putting out any fires, prior to him grabbing a fire extinguisher from someone at Ultimate location and going down Sheridan Road to deal with the increasingly volatile situation at CarSource3 (where he was then ambushed by the Ziminski couple -- 'Bonnie & Clyde' -- and Rosenbaum) 2. Immediately upon facing the armed Ziminski, his first reaction was to set down/drop that fire extinguisher and get both hands on his rifle. Rosenbaum suddenly appeared from behind parked cars, and Kyle ran away from these threatening actors, racing across the parking lot (not towards the police lines) with Rosenbaum in hot pursuit (and throwing the bag) while Ziminski opened fire with his own gun. 3. After Rosenbaum was neutralized, Kyle stopped for a few seconds to review the scene, quickly called Black to say he had shot someone -- "I had no choice" and then within that commotion (including more gunshots echoing) he started to move quickly northbound up Sheridan Road, towards the police Bearcats at the Ultimate location at 60th street. 4. It was during this run that he was struck in the head by a chunk of rock (his hat flew off); hit by Huber's skateboard the first time; attacked by Maurice Freeland's flying kick; sliced in the neck/shoulder by Huber's second attempt at 'cranium-ing" him; and then having Grosskreutz come right up to him with a drawn handgun. Let us remember one thing, there was an individual right alongside Grosskreutz, who initially was moving towards the prone/sitting Rittenhouse, and he backed off, and thus no shots were fired at him.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

29th December 2021, 12:50 PM	#151
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	plague311, these citizens carrying guns were engaged in legal activity. Both by Wisconsin Statute and by the United States Constitution - Bill of Rights. Rosenbaum and Ziminski were breaking laws that night by making death threats and committing arson and throwing chemical bombs and brandishing/firing illegal handguns --- not the citizens. I am here to keep correcting the record, which you persist on falsifying.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

29th December 2021, 01:25 PM	#152
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 12,966	Originally Posted by webfusion plague311, these citizens carrying guns were engaged in legal activity. No, they weren't. There was a curfew in effect. Originally Posted by webfusion Both by Wisconsin Statute and by the United States Constitution - Bill of Rights. checks bingo card for 'Constitution and Bill of Rights' spots Awesome, if you could just bring up "mah freedumz" I'll have a bingo. Originally Posted by webfusion Rosenbaum and Ziminski were breaking laws that night by making death threats and committing arson and throwing chemical bombs and brandishing/firing illegal handguns --- not the citizens. Uh, wasn't Kyle's gun illegal? You are ***** terrible at stating facts so far. Originally Posted by webfusion I am here to keep correcting the record, You're doing a job, if I do say so myself. Originally Posted by webfusion** which you persist on falsifying. Riigghht
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

29th December 2021, 01:33 PM	#153
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,384	Originally Posted by webfusion plague311, these citizens carrying guns were engaged in legal activity. Both by Wisconsin Statute and by the United States Constitution - Bill of Rights. ...... Kyle Rittenhouse wasn't just violating the riot curfew; he was only 17 years old, so he was in violation of the regular weeknight curfew in Kenosha, which is 10:30 on weekdays. Originally Posted by webfusion I am here to keep correcting the record, which you persist on falsifying. Hahahahahahahaha, nope.

29th December 2021, 02:12 PM	#154
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by plague311 No, they weren't. There was a curfew in effect. In the trial, this item was dismissed. Have you not been paying attention? Originally Posted by plague311 checks bingo card for 'Constitution and Bill of Rights' spots Awesome, if you could just bring up "mah freedumz" I'll have a bingo. Poisoning the well, and ridicule of the US Constitution, nice going. Originally Posted by plague311 Uh, wasn't Kyle's gun illegal? You are ***** terrible at stating facts so far. Uh, no. It wasn't his gun, it was legally Dominick Black's (that court case is open and has not yet been adjudicated, so we have to assume Black is innocent of wrongdoing until proven guilty) Furthermore, Kyle had the presiding judge in his case decide it WAS NOT illegal for him to carry around. In Rittenhouse's trial, this item was dismissed. Have you not been paying attention? Originally Posted by plague311 You're doing a ** job, if I do say so myself. Well, I have offered links, video evidence, detailed descriptions of known facts, and corrected the overt misstatements and errors of facts, so you can say whatever you want, but I'll stick to my proper course of action, regardless of your opinion.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009

29th December 2021, 02:22 PM	#155
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009	Originally Posted by carlitos Kyle Rittenhouse wasn't just violating the riot curfew; he was only 17 years old, so he was in violation of the regular weeknight curfew in Kenosha, which is 10:30 on weekdays. As it happens, the City Ordinance 11.05 you quoted has an exception-- "This Section shall... not apply in circumstances in which the minor was exercising First Amendment rights protected by the United States Constitution or the Wisconsin Constitution, including freedom of speech, the free exercise of religion and/or the right of assembly." Go fish. This is all just a red herring, as the charge was dismissed and you can't say "He was violating 11.05" because the Kenosha Court found otherwise, sui juris.
webfusion Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,009