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Old 28th June 2019, 10:32 PM   #3561
BowlOfRed
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
My bad I forgot the a.
Don't mind me. I was a young lad when "space nuts" was originally broadcast, and yet I still remember the opening sequence with some fondness. I'm sure that is due to only remembering a very tiny bit of it.
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Old 29th June 2019, 12:20 AM   #3562
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Channeling GV, you can see it tilt over after liftoff. If it was really going to space it would go straight up, but it has to avoid the firmament/dome. Seriously, he's said that repeatedly.
Remember the old saying

What goes up, must come down (unless it has sufficient ∆v to reach orbital or escape velocity)

If you send a rocket straight up and don't pitch it over, well, that is always going to end badly for the rocket and, if the rocket survives re-entry, anyone unlucky enough to be in the general area when it inevitably comes back to Earth.

I tried it in KSP once, a multi stage stage rocket launched straight up with no pitch over. It went out about 10,000 km, until gravity took over....... it hit some phenomenal velocity and when it hit the atmosphere....

KA-BOOM!!
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Old 29th June 2019, 02:06 AM   #3563
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I know it's silly even to think about this stuff, but I was reflecting on GV's theory that rockets work in atmosphere because they push off the atmosphere. But isn't air compressible? I mean, you can't get much thrust with air as anyone who has ever had to bleed brakes would know. And then, when you think about it, isn't there just as much atmosphere in front of the rocket as there is behind it? If the atmosphere is hard enough for the rocket's exhaust to push against, why is it not hard enough for the front of the rocket to push against too? I don't understand how, under GV's theory, rockets can ever work anywhere. If a rocket were made with a blunt nose of equal area to the outlet, wouldn't it just sit there?
Not just rockets: surely this would apply to planes as well? Actually, thinking about it, how is anything able to move? Won't the pressure of the air in front of any moving object stop it from going forward?
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Old 29th June 2019, 07:02 AM   #3564
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Not just rockets: surely this would apply to planes as well? Actually, thinking about it, how is anything able to move? Won't the pressure of the air in front of any moving object stop it from going forward?
And the earth would have no atmosphere because all the air would move to the lower pressure of the vacuum.

Edit: Oops, I forgot about the dome that is holding it in.
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Old 29th June 2019, 07:27 AM   #3565
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It is obvious that Gingervytes thinks a vacuum exerts some sort of pull on the gases in the rocket motor

I recall once wondering why the vacuum of space didn't such away the atmosphere. I was much younger back then, but very interested in physics. I don't recall how long it took for me to understand that a vacuum doesn't suck (insert any number of jokes here).

The idea that the vacuum of space sucks (I gotta figure out a better word) is a very common belief. I suspect most people think that you would explode like a bomb if exposed to a vacuum. That's what happens in many sci-fi movies and the more realistic scene in 2001 is often scoffed at as unbelievable.

I am sure most people understand that the Earth's atmosphere stays in place because of gravity. But most of those people would also say that gravity is preventing the gas from being pulled into space by the vacuum.

So, Gingervytes's misunderstanding is somewhat understandable, but not his refusal to learn how things really work.

Last edited by jadebox; 29th June 2019 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 29th June 2019, 03:42 PM   #3566
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Remember the old saying

What goes up, must come down (unless it has sufficient ∆v to reach orbital or escape velocity)

If you send a rocket straight up and don't pitch it over, well, that is always going to end badly for the rocket and, if the rocket survives re-entry, anyone unlucky enough to be in the general area when it inevitably comes back to Earth.

I tried it in KSP once, a multi stage stage rocket launched straight up with no pitch over. It went out about 10,000 km, until gravity took over....... it hit some phenomenal velocity and when it hit the atmosphere....

I tried orbiter but couldn't make it work.
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Old 30th June 2019, 04:10 AM   #3567
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I know it's silly even to think about this stuff, but I was reflecting on GV's theory that rockets work in atmosphere because they push off the atmosphere. But isn't air compressible? I mean, you can't get much thrust with air as anyone who has ever had to bleed brakes would know. And then, when you think about it, isn't there just as much atmosphere in front of the rocket as there is behind it? If the atmosphere is hard enough for the rocket's exhaust to push against, why is it not hard enough for the front of the rocket to push against too? I don't understand how, under GV's theory, rockets can ever work anywhere. If a rocket were made with a blunt nose of equal area to the outlet, wouldn't it just sit there?
Well, it wouldn't necessarily just sit there, because the air behind is being pushed away fast even when the air in front is just sitting still. But yes, it seems like a limit must be reached, for jets and rockets. When you want to go fast by pushing off the air behind you, but you also push on the air in front of you, there's only so much you can do because eventually the air behind is already moving away really fast while you try to push it. I'm not sure, but you may have discovered the real source of the legendary "sound barrier".
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Old 30th June 2019, 04:31 AM   #3568
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Well, it wouldn't necessarily just sit there, because the air behind is being pushed away fast even when the air in front is just sitting still. But yes, it seems like a limit must be reached, for jets and rockets. When you want to go fast by pushing off the air behind you, but you also push on the air in front of you, there's only so much you can do because eventually the air behind is already moving away really fast while you try to push it. I'm not sure, but you may have discovered the real source of the legendary "sound barrier".
If I push really fast against the air behind me, will I be able to fly?

In Gingervytes' world, this presumably is possible.
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Old 30th June 2019, 07:32 AM   #3569
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
Gingervytes:

Please explain, by your theory, how an aircraft flies when it's forward speed exceeds it's exhaust velocity.
Quoting from myself. I'd still like an answer to this question. There are jet aircraft which fly through the air faster than their own exhaust velocity. That means that the exhaust is not pushing against the air behind them, the exhaust is in fact going in the same direction as the aircraft, at a much lower speed relative to the outside air. There is no push against anything outside the aircraft!
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Old 30th June 2019, 02:41 PM   #3570
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Thumbs down Implied conspiracy theory paranoia about the coverage of a Falcon Heavy launch

Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Yea they’re covering something alright
1 July 2019 Gingervytes: Implied conspiracy theory paranoia about the coverage of a Falcon Heavy launch.

This was the launch of a rocket in the real world by a private company (Space-X): STP-2 MISSION has a 4 hour long webcast (live video)! The rocket got to orbit as hundreds of other rockets have done. The rocket deployed its USAF, NASA, NOAA, the Planetary Society, and others payload. We will get data back from that payload as we do for the ~5000 operational satellites already in obit around Earth.

Last edited by Reality Check; 30th June 2019 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 30th June 2019, 02:44 PM   #3571
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Still no rational (e.g. with actual, valid physics!) answers to these questions about the real world:
1 May 2019 Gingervytes: How did the Curiosity rover get to Mars through the vacuum of space?
1 May 2019 Gingervytes: Explain how the course changes of the Rosetta spacecraft worked as predicted by rocket physics.
2 May 2019 Gingervytes: How do astronauts maneuver in EVA at the ISS using rockets if rockets do not work in space?
3 May 2019 Gingervytes: If rockets do not work in space: How were the orbits of the Galileo 5 & 6 satellites altered with rockets? How are orbit changes for other satellites done? How are orbit adjustments doen for the ISS, e.g. to avoid space junk?
6 May 2019 Gingervytes: What evidence would you accept to show that rockets work in a vacuum?
10 May 2019 Gingervytes: How did astronauts get to the Hubble telescope and repair it?

Still no answers to these questions about that rather deluded image, video(s) and the "flat earth"? conspiracy.
13 May 2019 Gingervytes: How do rockets work inside the atmosphere?
21 May 2019 Gingervytes: Where is the experiment that you or a fellow conspiracy believer did to show that rockets do not work in vacuum?
22 May 2019 Gingervytes: Do you understand [yet] that the OP image has obvious ignorance or lies?
23 May 2019 Gingervytes: What makes the demonstrations in that YouTube video not faked?

27 May 2019 Gingervytes: A delusion of "alleged satellites" when he gives no evidence that the satellites do not exist (they exist even in the rockets do not work in space delusion )
28 May 2019 Gingervytes: "the direction of the gases will be going out of the opening" ignorance.
29 May 2019 Gingervytes: Ignorance about gun powder (exploding gun powder produces a shrapnel of powder particles and gas).
6 June 2019 Gingervytes: A delusion that rockets can only get to "100k feet max"
6 June 2019 Gingervytes: Ignorance about Robin's post is followed by fantasies.

14 June 2019 Gingervytes: Persists with a delusion of "alleged space missions and satellites"
14 June 2019 Gingervytes: An "Indirect evidence" lie when we have direct evidence of space missions and satellites.
14 June 2019 Gingervytes: Lies about his delusion which is that rockets do not work in space which is not a problem with rockets reaching space.
14 June 2019 Gingervytes: Lies again about Newton's third law which is not that every force has an equal and opposite force (pressure gradient force does not have a magic opposing force).
18 June 2019 Gingervytes: Abysmal ignorance of the laws of physics (momentum conservation says rockets are pushed!).
18 June 2019 Gingervytes: A stupid "Where is your proof" question.
18 June 2019 Gingervytes: A stupid question on the pressure gradient force and an insult.
1 July 2019 Gingervytes: Implied conspiracy theory paranoia about the coverage of a Falcon Heavy launch.
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Old 30th June 2019, 04:39 PM   #3572
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And then there's how to get one bar of pressure at the bottom of a ship....
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:16 AM   #3573
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And then there's how to get one bar of pressure at the bottom of a ship....
Is that similar to getting one bar of chocolate at the bottom of your Xmas stocking?
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Old 1st July 2019, 11:45 PM   #3574
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A friend of mine suggested that if you one up conspiracy theorists then they don't know what to do.

"The moon landing was fake."

"Oh, you're one of those guys that believes in the moon?"

It seems an intriguing suggestion, I think I'll be using this approach from now on.

So GingerVytes, you're one of those guys that believes in rockets?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 03:02 AM   #3575
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
If I push really fast against the air behind me, will I be able to fly?

In Gingervytes' world, this presumably is possible.
No. Birds are in on it too. Dinosaurs invented anti-gravity and escaped the asteroid impact. Only a few of the smaller ones got left behind and have evolved flashy displays with waving feathers to disguise the tech they really use to fly.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 03:36 AM   #3576
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
No. Birds are in on it too. Dinosaurs invented anti-gravity and escaped the asteroid impact. Only a few of the smaller ones got left behind and have evolved flashy displays with waving feathers to disguise the tech they really use to fly.
Oh, you're one of those people who believe in dinosaurs, are you?

Dave
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Old 2nd July 2019, 03:43 AM   #3577
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Oh, you're one of those people who believe in dinosaurs, are you?

Dave
LOL. This could run and run. In the context of this thread though it should probably have been "oh, you're one of those people who believe in asteroids".
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:12 AM   #3578
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Oh, you're one of those people who believe in dinosaurs, are you?

Dave
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
LOL. This could run and run. In the context of this thread though it should probably have been "oh, you're one of those people who believe in asteroids".
Why stop there?

"Oh, you're one of those people that believe in people, are you?"

That'll get 'em thinking.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:18 AM   #3579
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
"Oh, you're one of those people that believe in people, are you?"
Who said that?

Dave
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:36 AM   #3580
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Let's not forget the biggest myth of all, the idea that words can convey meaning. How can a sequence of arbitrarily chosen sounds or symbols carry meaning? Impossible!

Sent from my Moto C using Tapatalk
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:40 AM   #3581
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
How can a sequence of arbitrarily chosen sounds or symbols carry meaning? Impossible!
I like the way that you've backed up your thesis...

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
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...with a supporting example.

Dave
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:56 PM   #3582
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Yes, The Apollo Moon Landings Really Did Happen including evidence of rockets working in vacuum (the ascents from the Lunar surface)!
One thing I did not know was that the lunar modules crashed on the lunar surface and we have photos of the crash sites and the ejecta.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 05:56 PM   #3583
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I like the way that you've backed up your thesis...



...with a supporting example.

Dave



Now that's my kind of humour!!
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:16 PM   #3584
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
A friend of mine suggested that if you one up conspiracy theorists then they don't know what to do.

"The moon landing was fake."

"Oh, you're one of those guys that believes in the moon?"

It seems an intriguing suggestion, I think I'll be using this approach from now on.

So GingerVytes, you're one of those guys that believes in rockets?
Hey, we all know that The "Moon" is a ridiculous liberal myth.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:59 AM   #3585
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
You are one of those who believe that there are liberals?

Preposterous! Everyone knows that the so-called "liberal" is simply the disguise that demons put on when they want to walk about on the Earth.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:29 AM   #3586
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You are one of those who believe that there are liberals?

Preposterous! Everyone knows that the so-called "liberal" is simply the disguise that demons put on when they want to walk about on the Earth.
I think that qualifies more as a Poe than anything else...

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Old 4th July 2019, 09:32 PM   #3587
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The Who started the flat Earth conspiracy and... thread cites an interesting video on the history and beliefs of the flat earthers. There are stupid beliefs such as
  • Idiocy about only believing your eyes.
    This makes the Earth a sphere because anyone can observe ships vanishing over the curvature of the Earth!
  • The Earth is not only flat, it is the unique and center of at least the Solar System and maybe the universe.
    School children know the evidence that it is the Sun that is the center of the Solar System. Eyes + a telescope confirms this (see above) by observing the phases of Venus.
  • Earth's gravity is the Earth constantly accelerating at 9.8 meters per second squared due to "universal accelerator/dark energy/aetheric wind" delusions.
    The narrator says that this puts Earth at or over the speed of light within a year which is not correct. Special relativity (which the flat earthers believe!) puts Earth at relativistic speeds where red and blue shifting of light from other stars would be obvious to our eyes. Just use your eyes folks! They should also use their eyes to notice all of the stars not streaming past the Earth! I suspect that they add another delusion of their delusions accelerating all objects equally - but then why do we not float off the surface of the Earth when we jump? Ok - add another delusion ?

    The narrator misses that the flat earthers are blatantly lying. The average acceleration at the surface of the Earth is 9.8 meters per second squared. It varies with height as expected for real gravity. It varies with depth as expected for real gravity. It varies along the surface as expected for real gravity which is used to detect underground masses. It is a varying acceleration caused by different masses and distances.

    ETA: We also measure gravity between objects in labs.

Last edited by Reality Check; 4th July 2019 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 5th July 2019, 01:13 AM   #3588
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The Who started the flat Earth conspiracy [...]
...but they won't get fooled again.

Dave
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:18 AM   #3589
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
...but they won't get fooled again.

Dave
The flatness is why they can see for miles and miles.
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:25 AM   #3590
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
The flatness is why they can see for miles and miles.
"So why do ships vanish below the horizon?"

"I can't explain."

Dave
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:38 AM   #3591
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
If I push really fast against the air behind me, will I be able to fly?

In Gingervytes' world, this presumably is possible.
Isn't that basically how a bird's wings work?
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:02 AM   #3592
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Isn't that basically how a bird's wings work?
Actually, no. Bird's wings (or any other wings) don't push on the air. They create a flow that causes a pressure difference.
Plenty of early human attempts at making aircraft tried to just push at air. It doesn't work.

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Old 5th July 2019, 11:17 AM   #3593
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Actually, no. Bird's wings (or any other wings) don't push on the air. They create a flow that causes a pressure difference.
Plenty of early human attempts at making aircraft tried to just push at air. It doesn't work.

Hans
I get what you're saying about lift, but a bird's wings do push on air when taking off from the ground and at other times to gain height. Then there's hovering in the case of humming birds, where there's no flow caused by forward motion. As I recall, the feathers kind of hinge to present a 'solid' surface on the downbeat but a vented surface on the upbeat. In addition, the angle of the wing changes on the up/down beat.
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Old 5th July 2019, 11:47 AM   #3594
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I get what you're saying about lift, but a bird's wings do push on air when taking off from the ground and at other times to gain height. Then there's hovering in the case of humming birds, where there's no flow caused by forward motion. As I recall, the feathers kind of hinge to present a 'solid' surface on the downbeat but a vented surface on the upbeat. In addition, the angle of the wing changes on the up/down beat.
A bird hovering (or rising vertically) is either using a mode where the wings are swept forward to create lift then swung backward where they do mostly push air but counter the backward momentum and crate some lift, or the advanced humming bird mode (not entirely restricted to humming birds) where the wings are swept in one direction, then pivoted round and swept in the other direction, creating lift in both directions.

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Old 5th July 2019, 12:44 PM   #3595
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
A bird hovering (or rising vertically) is either using a mode where the wings are swept forward to create lift then swung backward where they do mostly push air but counter the backward momentum and crate some lift, or the advanced humming bird mode (not entirely restricted to humming birds) where the wings are swept in one direction, then pivoted round and swept in the other direction, creating lift in both directions.

Hans
But neither type of bird works in a vacuum.
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:39 PM   #3596
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
But neither type of bird works in a vacuum.
Well, DUH.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:22 PM   #3597
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Yea they’re covering something alright
You are a liar.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:23 PM   #3598
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
But neither type of bird works in a vacuum.
On the other hand , flies can survive in a vacuum - but become walks.
Evidence is about the 4:30 mark.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:37 PM   #3599
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
On the other hand , flies can survive in a vacuum - but become walks.
Evidence is about the 4:30 mark.
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My classic Dyson™ DC07 All floors kills them instantly.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:59 PM   #3600
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
My classic Dyson™ DC07 All floors kills them instantly.
Thats just false advertising then - calling it the Dyson Animal Vacuum.
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