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Old 18th February 2020, 01:36 AM   #601
IanS
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
While I'll agree with that, but for what I was saying, my emphasis wasn't on "fan fiction" but on "very late". One trick the bible accuracy proponents tend to do is claim that suspiciously the same arbitrary set of sources in Irenaeus are the real deal because they date them as early and possible, so supposedly those had to have had witnesses and whatnot. (I'll disagree with the last part too, but there we go.) So basically if the limits imposed by studying the content and/or lettering say it's written anywhere between 75 CE and 125 CE, then it gets dated as 75 CE. Whereas the sources they don't like get pushed as late as possible, and dismissed as basically by that point they were only pulling fanfic out of the butt.

Unless they decide they like them again, in which case they get pushed early too. Which is what those who want Thomas to be Q do with its dating.

What I was pointing out is just that even that trick doesn't get rid of all inconvenient sources.

Afaik, and we have discussed this point countless times in these threads (and over many hundreds, if not actually thousands of posts), those claims of first century dates are hugely misleading anyway.

Because we do not have any of that writing from anywhere near the first century (except for a few fragmented bits, which some people have dated as early as maybe 125AD, but which could easily be much later anyway).

The writing that we do actually have, and that which is the actual source of all the information and all the detail about what those writers thought Jesus had done, that is afaik all more credibly/accurately dated to the 3rd and 4th centuries & later, or else in many other cases (eg the non-biblical mentions of Jesus) as late as the 11th century!!

So afaik - we really don't have anything that could be said to be remotely useful (as information about Jesus), until at least several hundred years after his supposed lifetime.

Last edited by IanS; 18th February 2020 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 18th February 2020, 02:01 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I don't disagree with any of that. I was trying not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I didn't want to say I was an atheist. I was part of the church even though I barely believed any of it. I enjoyed the company and the community. I think the message that we are our brother's keeper and to love one another were something worth holding on to.

But when it came down to it, I felt like a fraud going along with it. And no amount of having Pascal's Wager being thrown at me would ever change that the stories are not believable.

I remember having this discussion with my pastor. I couldn't choose to believe what my mind told me was false. And if there were a god who knew my thoughts, pretending I believed was not going to save me.

OK, well that does seem like a familiar story, and especially in the USA. That is - people going to church and maintaining some sort of slowly dwindling religious belief, mostly because the enjoyed the sense of community etc. But where in the end it just seemed to them like they were "living a lie" as far as the actual religion was concerned.
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Old 18th February 2020, 03:52 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
Well just on the highlighted stuff about Bart Ehrman - the point is that he does insist that he knows as a matter of complete certainty that Jesus was a real individual, and that he certainly was the individual who people worshiped as the Son of God and who they wrote about in gospels and letters that later became the NT bible ... point is that Ehrman has been repeatedly and emphatically clear saying that Jesus was a certainty lol!
Well, I certainly won't disagree. Just saying that even if I were to accept that he actually reconstructed the right guy that the story is based on, that's still not what a lot of us would call "the historical Jesus".
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Old 18th February 2020, 05:00 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by Ricardo View Post
You must believe that Jesus existed!
Why?
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Old 18th February 2020, 11:56 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by IanS View Post
OK, well that does seem like a familiar story, and especially in the USA. That is - people going to church and maintaining some sort of slowly dwindling religious belief, mostly because the enjoyed the sense of community etc. But where in the end it just seemed to them like they were "living a lie" as far as the actual religion was concerned.
I really don't think I ever believed it. I distinctly remember going to Sunday School at church thinking the adults were nuts. I understood what fairy tales were, we were told them in elementary school. The Ugly Duckling, the Emperor's New Clothes, Little Red Riding Hood, etc, etc, etc. But the teachers in school never tried to say these stories were true.

Yeah, Noah gathered two of every animal on a big boat and everyone else died because of the flood.

Yeah, Jonah lived three days in the belly of a fish.

Yeah, Moses parted the Red Sea.

Yea, Joshua knocked down the walls of Jericho by blowing a big horn.

Yeah, Samson had the strength of 20 men and became weak because a woman cut his hair.

Yeah, the Earth was created in 6 days.

Yeah, Eve tempted Adam with an apple and God got pissed.
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Old 18th February 2020, 01:38 PM   #606
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I really don't want to get drawn back into this endless back-and-forth about Jesus, but I thought some readers of this thread might find this documentary interesting:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Who Was The Real Jesus Christ...
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Old 18th February 2020, 04:05 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really don't think I ever believed it. I distinctly remember going to Sunday School at church thinking the adults were nuts. I understood what fairy tales were, we were told them in elementary school. The Ugly Duckling, the Emperor's New Clothes, Little Red Riding Hood, etc, etc, etc. But the teachers in school never tried to say these stories were true.

Yeah, Noah gathered two of every animal on a big boat and everyone else died because of the flood.

Yeah, Jonah lived three days in the belly of a fish.

Yeah, Moses parted the Red Sea.

Yea, Joshua knocked down the walls of Jericho by blowing a big horn.

Yeah, Samson had the strength of 20 men and became weak because a woman cut his hair.

Yeah, the Earth was created in 6 days.

Yeah, Eve tempted Adam with an apple and God got pissed.
To be fair, some people are daft regardless of whether it's about religion or not.

There literally are people out there writing letters to the address Sherlock Holmes had in the novels, for example. The street didn't even have that number IIRC, they just added that number for the letters to Sherlock Holmes, because it's really that many letters.

There's literally a tomb of Romeo And Juliet. They're not historical characters, but so many people kept asking to see their tomb, that, sure, the locals made one.

There are people going to Castle Bran just to see Dracula's residence. And while, sure, you could say it's based on the historical Vlad Tepes, he never really lived there. The only actually historical connection between Vlad and Bran is that he once laid siege to it, and was rather unsuccessful at that. They also go look for his ghost in a place about a couple hundred miles north of where he actually died. But if a frikken novel told them about those places, by Odin's iPatch, there's where they'll go look. (And again, the locals are more than happy to prey on idiot tourists.)

Etc.

I guess some people just are gullible.
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Old 18th February 2020, 05:26 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
To be fair, some people are daft regardless of whether it's about religion or not.

There literally are people out there writing letters to the address Sherlock Holmes had in the novels, for example. The street didn't even have that number IIRC, they just added that number for the letters to Sherlock Holmes, because it's really that many letters.

There's literally a tomb of Romeo And Juliet. They're not historical characters, but so many people kept asking to see their tomb, that, sure, the locals made one.

There are people going to Castle Bran just to see Dracula's residence. And while, sure, you could say it's based on the historical Vlad Tepes, he never really lived there. The only actually historical connection between Vlad and Bran is that he once laid siege to it, and was rather unsuccessful at that. They also go look for his ghost in a place about a couple hundred miles north of where he actually died. But if a frikken novel told them about those places, by Odin's iPatch, there's where they'll go look. (And again, the locals are more than happy to prey on idiot tourists.)

Etc.

I guess some people just are gullible.
This is all true. But there aren't 50,000 churches dedicated to Vlad the impaler or giving 10 percent of their earnings to Sherlock and Dr. Watson.
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Old 19th February 2020, 05:13 AM   #609
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Not sure if spending one's savings for the year to see "Dracula's castle" (which he actually only briefly sieged once, but was never inside) and buy crap Dracula sovenirs is all that much smarter, tbh. I mean, technically it's not IDENTICAL, but I'm not entirely sure it's any smarter.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:35 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Not sure if spending one's savings for the year to see "Dracula's castle" (which he actually only briefly sieged once, but was never inside) and buy crap Dracula sovenirs is all that much smarter, tbh. I mean, technically it's not IDENTICAL, but I'm not entirely sure it's any smarter.
It's a bit different. Thats a tourist trap and for almost all these people, it's just for fun. Hardly different then going to Disneyland or Hogwarts Castle or Hobbittown.
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Old 19th February 2020, 08:49 AM   #611
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Going mad. Thought I'd already posted this!

Given the tourism drummed up by the Da Vinci code I wonder if Bethlehem back in 150 CE was plagued with tourists trying to find the locations mentioned in their tour book, sorry Bible?
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Old 19th February 2020, 09:01 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Going mad. Thought I'd already posted this!

Given the tourism drummed up by the Da Vinci code I wonder if Bethlehem back in 150 CE was plagued with tourists trying to find the locations mentioned in their tour book, sorry Bible?
Tour book seems like the right words. After all, people not only visit Jerusalem, they visit the Vatican not to mention the Ark exhibit in the buckle of the Bible belt. Although, it's having issues staying afloat.

Doesn't the Koran serve the same purpose for Muslims? I mean seriously, would anyone travel to Mecca if not for the Koran? Hey Honey, let's spend our vacation in 120 degree heat.

But hey, I drove 5 miles out of my way to see Paul Bunyan and the Blue Ox.
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Old 19th February 2020, 12:00 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Tour book seems like the right words. After all, people not only visit Jerusalem, they visit the Vatican not to mention the Ark exhibit in the buckle of the Bible belt. Although, it's having issues staying afloat.

Doesn't the Koran serve the same purpose for Muslims? I mean seriously, would anyone travel to Mecca if not for the Koran? Hey Honey, let's spend our vacation in 120 degree heat.

But hey, I drove 5 miles out of my way to see Paul Bunyan and the Blue Ox.
Way, way back in the day, the last time I went to the USA, I went to Tombstone to watch the re-enactment of the "Gunfight at the OK Corral", but unlike the bible, that wasn't a fable - it really happened, involving real historical figures, in a place that really exists.
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:27 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Going mad. Thought I'd already posted this!

Given the tourism drummed up by the Da Vinci code I wonder if Bethlehem back in 150 CE was plagued with tourists trying to find the locations mentioned in their tour book, sorry Bible?
You posted it in the Jeeps thread!
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Old 19th February 2020, 01:49 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You posted it in the Jeeps thread!


Historical Jeeps, historical Jesus, same difference


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Old 19th February 2020, 01:51 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Tour book seems like the right words. After all, people not only visit Jerusalem, they visit the Vatican not to mention the Ark exhibit in the buckle of the Bible belt. Although, it's having issues staying afloat.

Doesn't the Koran serve the same purpose for Muslims? I mean seriously, would anyone travel to Mecca if not for the Koran? Hey Honey, let's spend our vacation in 120 degree heat.

But hey, I drove 5 miles out of my way to see Paul Bunyan and the Blue Ox.
You can go see the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota, just don't let Bernie take your picture with your Instamatic
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Old 19th February 2020, 02:05 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You posted it in the Jeeps thread!


What a pillock.
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Old 19th February 2020, 02:06 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Historical Jeeps, historical Jesus, same difference


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Speaking of Jeepsus:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Instagram-5b5381.jpg (44.0 KB, 6 views)
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Old 19th February 2020, 02:34 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
You can go see the biggest ball of twine in Minnesota, just don't let Bernie take your picture with your Instamatic
They showed that in the movie Michael. Nah, Bernie uses his Brownie.
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Old 20th February 2020, 01:14 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Going mad. Thought I'd already posted this!

Given the tourism drummed up by the Da Vinci code I wonder if Bethlehem back in 150 CE was plagued with tourists trying to find the locations mentioned in their tour book, sorry Bible?
Dude. Like, dude. Dunno about Bethlehem, but Nazareth had an empress go on pilgrimage there in the early 4th century and decree that a big ass church be built there. How's that for both spending big on vacation and building a better tourist trap?
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Old 20th February 2020, 01:23 AM   #621
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But if you want probably the most LUDICRIOUS tourist trap ever, take the Basilica della Santa Casa, i.e., literally cathedral of the holy house. It houses not just any holy bone or pot, but a big ass HOUSE inside the cathedral, supposed to be the home of Joseph and Mary, flown air mail express by angels from Nazareth to Italy.

Well, I say "house", but OF COURSE it's a big ass marble villa with elaborate columns and bas reliefs all over, that would have made Pilate himself envious. Because, you know, when you think about a poor non-citizen carpenter in a tiny town in a poor backwater province, that's the kind of house you expect to see

So yeah, religion and tourist traps go pretty well together
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Old 20th February 2020, 03:14 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What a pillock.
In this thread it is an interesting post.

In the Historical Jeeps thread it earned you a nomination for the "feel me up" awards, or something like that. Context matters!
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Old 24th February 2020, 12:55 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
...the Basilica della Santa Casa, i.e., literally cathedral of the holy house ...

Well, I say "house", but OF COURSE it's a big ass marble villa with elaborate columns and bas reliefs all over, that would have made Pilate himself envious. ...
Urr... nope.


Read your own link:
Quote:
The "house" itself is a plain stone building, 8.5 m by 3.8 m and 4.1 m high; it has a door on the north side and a window on the west; and a niche ... Around the house is a tall marble screen designed by Bramante ... in the baroque style.
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Old 24th February 2020, 01:51 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You posted it in the Jeeps thread!
There's a "Jeeps" thread?

Who knew?
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Old 8th March 2020, 09:58 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Urr... nope.
Hey its not his fault they hid the house in a bigger house.
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Old 11th March 2020, 02:49 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Dude. Like, dude. Dunno about Bethlehem, but Nazareth had an empress go on pilgrimage there in the early 4th century and decree that a big ass church be built there. How's that for both spending big on vacation and building a better tourist trap?
I think that was Helena, mother of the first big-time Christian Roman emperor Constantine. She went traipsing all over the Holy Land buying up bits of the "true cross" etc. She was a gullible 'mark' it seems - any half decent merchant could sell her anything as being related to Jesus, including the location of the tomb in which Jesus was allegedly buried.
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Old 11th March 2020, 04:47 AM   #627
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Yep, that's the old gal. I'm surprised someone didn't even sell her the donkeys that Jesus rode into Jerusalem
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Old 12th March 2020, 03:00 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Yep, that's the old gal. I'm surprised someone didn't even sell her the donkeys that Jesus rode into Jerusalem
Pity. They could have been stuffed and given pride of place in St. Peter's.
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Old 24th March 2020, 04:33 AM   #629
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One problem with talking a "Historical Jesus" is its meaning. Does a guy named Jesus who preached to moderate sized groups who died, not by crucifixion, of old age having drifted off into obscurity.

Carrier himself admits the 'Jesus was a nobody' position is an out but then you get a Jesus who is no more "historical" then Robin Hood or King Arthur; you get a real life Swastika Night (1937) situation where the actual person had been so buried by mythology that next to nothing remains.
Another issue is Paul may have been coopting the remains of previous messiah cults and convincing them that Jesus rather then their founder was the real deal. That would go a long way to explain the wild diversity. Here is a collection of "historical" but nobody Jesuses to illustrate just what the problem with a minimal Jesus is:

1) In the time of Pontius Pilate some crazy man ran into the Temple trashing the place and screaming "I am Jesus, King of the Jews" before some guard runs him through with a sword. Right place right time...and that is it. No preaching, no followers, no crucifixion, nothing but some nut doing the 1st century equivalent of suicide by cop. All the other events in the Gospels were done by other would be messiah and a more palatable version of the "Temple Tantrum" (I love that term) created forming a composite Jesus ie a Jesus who in reality never really existed.

2) Paul's teachings ala John Frum inspired others to take up the name "Jesus" and preach their spin on Paul's visions with one of them getting crucified by the Romans by his troubles whose teachings are time shifted so he is before Paul. (John Robertson actually came up with a variant of this in 1900 with this Jesus being inspired by Paul's writings rather then teachings)

3) You could have a Jesus who was born c 12 BCE in the small town of Cana, who preached a few words of Jewish wisdom to small crowds of no more than 10 people at a time, and died due to being run over by a chariot at the age of 50.

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Old 25th March 2020, 03:40 AM   #630
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Most available actual evidence indicates that the Biblical Jesus was most likely a creation by Jewish turncoat and Roman historian Josephus, at the orders of Roman Emperor Diocletian. He and a few other scribes also seem to have written most of the New Testament, long after the fact.
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Old 25th March 2020, 03:44 AM   #631
Darat
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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
One problem with talking a "Historical Jesus" is its meaning. Does a guy named Jesus who preached to moderate sized groups who died, not by crucifixion, of old age having drifted off into obscurity.

Carrier himself admits the 'Jesus was a nobody' position is an out but then you get a Jesus who is no more "historical" then Robin Hood or King Arthur; you get a real life Swastika Night (1937) situation where the actual person had been so buried by mythology that next to nothing remains.
Another issue is Paul may have been coopting the remains of previous messiah cults and convincing them that Jesus rather then their founder was the real deal. That would go a long way to explain the wild diversity. Here is a collection of "historical" but nobody Jesuses to illustrate just what the problem with a minimal Jesus is:

1) In the time of Pontius Pilate some crazy man ran into the Temple trashing the place and screaming "I am Jesus, King of the Jews" before some guard runs him through with a sword. Right place right time...and that is it. No preaching, no followers, no crucifixion, nothing but some nut doing the 1st century equivalent of suicide by cop. All the other events in the Gospels were done by other would be messiah and a more palatable version of the "Temple Tantrum" (I love that term) created forming a composite Jesus ie a Jesus who in reality never really existed.

2) Paul's teachings ala John Frum inspired others to take up the name "Jesus" and preach their spin on Paul's visions with one of them getting crucified by the Romans by his troubles whose teachings are time shifted so he is before Paul. (John Robertson actually came up with a variant of this in 1900 with this Jesus being inspired by Paul's writings rather then teachings)

3) You could have a Jesus who was born c 12 BCE in the small town of Cana, who preached a few words of Jewish wisdom to small crowds of no more than 10 people at a time, and died due to being run over by a chariot at the age of 50.

At the heart of the issue is that even if there had been an historic Jesus it has no relationship with the Jesus of the religious.
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Old 25th March 2020, 04:27 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
Most available actual evidence indicates that the Biblical Jesus was most likely a creation by Jewish turncoat and Roman historian Josephus, at the orders of Roman Emperor Diocletian. He and a few other scribes also seem to have written most of the New Testament, long after the fact.
DIOCLETIAN? REALLY? A guy born in 244 CE, ascended to the throne in 284 CE, commissioned ANYTHING from Josephus who lived between 37 CE and 100 CE? Did Diocletian have a time machine, or what the hell?

But even without that piece of dumbassery: not really, no. He's a creation all right, but poor ol' Josephus has nothing to do with it.

And it certainly wouldn't fit the motivation you ascribe to him there. Josephus was out to show that Vespasian was the real messiah foretold by the Jewish scriptures. He pretty much had a chip on his shoulder to write about other failed messiah claimants as just that. And that's in fact one of the many clues that the gushing "Testimonium Flavianum" is a forgery. It doesn't fit that picture at all.

But really, that the "Testimonium Flavianum" is a forgery was even mainstream biblical scholarship for more than a century. In fact we even have a good idea as to WHO forged it. Mostly because nobody really needed it to be an authentic testimomy. It's only recently that "so where's the evidence for HJ?" started to be asked more seriously that religiously-motivated stonking idiots start pretending that Josephus must have actually written that, just maybe not in those fanboy words.
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Old Yesterday, 09:45 PM   #633
dejudge
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Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
Most available actual evidence indicates that the Biblical Jesus was most likely a creation by Jewish turncoat and Roman historian Josephus, at the orders of Roman Emperor Diocletian. He and a few other scribes also seem to have written most of the New Testament, long after the fact.
There is no actual historical evidence for your claim.

In writings attributed to Josephus, he claimed Vespasian the Emperor of Rome was the prophesied Messianic ruler found in Hebrew Scripture.

If Josephus was captured and imprisoned by the Romans then, unless he was suicidal, it would make no sense for him to make up a story that a crucified criminal, a Jew was really the Messiah.
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Old Today, 07:52 AM   #634
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The writings attributed to Josephus appear to be part of the evidence that the Jesus character in the NT, including all the Epistles, was fabricated no earlier than sometime after 94-96 CE or after the works of Josephus.

In effect, the authors of the Jesus stories called Gospels and the so-called Epistles of Paul appear to be using events only found in the books attributed to Josephus.
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Old Today, 12:31 PM   #635
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