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Old 26th May 2018, 11:06 PM   #41
Apathia
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There's no stopping a Windows update!

It happened while I was out. Fortunately this one didn't do any mischief.
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Old 27th May 2018, 02:04 AM   #42
Henri McPhee
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I had another Microsoft update yesterday and suddenly there was a pop up which said my computer had run into a problem and they were going to restart it. Then the computer froze, or crashed. Luckily it seems to be mainly working this morning. I complained to Microsoft and Dell using the internet forms provided.

Other computer companies advertise they can fix the problems but it seems like quite a hefty price to me. I think Microsoft stop supporting computers after a number of years, presumably to boost sales of new computers. I think my Dell computer may still be under guarantee. I have had similar sorts of problems on another now defunct computer, and my brother who is now abroad at the moment was able to sort them out then.

This latest Microsoft update seems to be something to do with privacy concerns, and legal tangles by the European Political Union. There is no privacy, or computer privacy, in Britain and America. Topix forums seem to be blocked at the moment unless you agree to accept cookies, whatever that is, and even then nothing happens. Waitrose supermarket sent an email to say they would no longer send correspondence unless you agreed to some new privacy agreement, which must be for legal reasons.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:15 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
I'm being threatened by another update.

I just followed Alfanier's advice (#30).

To quote Aimless T, "We'll see what happens."

I'll wait a month before allowing an update.
Aside: I am so stealing "Aimless T". Maybe without the T. I used to refer to the Bush(Jr.) administration as Helpless, Hapless and Hopeless. I like rhymes and alliteration. Aimless, Shameless and Blameless (and Nameless [sources]).
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Not this particular update. It was about an hour to shut down and do the initial portion of the upgrade, then another 30/40 minutes to restart. It seems to have been a massive upgrade of all sorts of features I don't care about, but I've had trouble with upgrades crashing midstream so I sat through it regardless of the fact that I was nodding off an wanted to go to bed.
This is another thing I hate about the Windows update process: there's no progress indicator or even context. When an update starts you have literally no idea if it's a quick five minute job or if your computer will be out of commission for a couple of hours. All you get is that damned spinner going round and round. You also have no idea if the update is progressing as expected or is stuck somewhere.

By contrast, a Linux distribution is comprised of separate packages, and when you do an update it lists all the packages it's going to modify. It then shows them one by one as it's doing the update. And for the most part it's possible to carry on working (editing text, reading email, surfing the web) while the update is running.

When you're running Windows, you've given control of your computer over to Microsoft, a giant corporation that doesn't care about you. With Linux you're still in the driver's seat.
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Old 27th May 2018, 04:46 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
This is another thing I hate about the Windows update process: there's no progress indicator or even context.
Sure there is. The whole time it was telling me 4%...26%...11%...19%....
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
When an update starts you have literally no idea if it's a quick five minute job or if your computer will be out of commission for a couple of hours. All you get is that damned spinner going round and round. You also have no idea if the update is progressing as expected or is stuck somewhere.
As long as there's some change every half hour or so, I'll let it go on.
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
When you're running Windows, you've given control of your computer over to Microsoft, a giant corporation that doesn't care about you. With Linux you're still in the driver's seat.
When BillG says "My Computer", that's exactly what he means. It ain't yours.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:43 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Sure there is. The whole time it was telling me 4%...26%...11%...19%....

As long as there's some change every half hour or so, I'll let it go on.

When BillG says "My Computer", that's exactly what he means. It ain't yours.
Apple uses a similar business model and so does Amazon. Think you own those books on your Kindle? Think again.
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Old 27th May 2018, 05:50 PM   #47
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I don't even think I own my house.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:07 PM   #48
Blue Mountain
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I don't even think I own my house.
You're right, the bank does.

To extend this metaphor to its (il)logical conclusion, the Rosthchilds own your house.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I don't even think I own my house.
I own my own house, but not the land it sits on. I have a 99 year lease on the land that is due to run out in a few years.

As for owning books, you may own the paper and ink in the books, but not the actual words. That means you cannot copy and then sell the copies. Never could due to copyright reasons.
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:53 PM   #50
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My Win10 installation was broken recently by an update. The installation completed, I could log in but had no desktop or start menu. When I tried to Win-R something it said "An attempt to access a non-existant token was made".

Only recourse was a reset.

I hate Microsoft.
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Old 28th May 2018, 09:53 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
My Win10 installation was broken recently by an update. The installation completed, I could log in but had no desktop or start menu. When I tried to Win-R something it said "An attempt to access a non-existant token was made".

Only recourse was a reset.

I hate Microsoft.
Yup. That's what happened to me: Desktop and Start Menu gone. Had to do a reinstall of Windows 10.


Where I begin to curse Microsoft is when I go to their support site for answers and what's given is useless. It's usually something that doesn't work and can't even be done.
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Old 29th May 2018, 03:31 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
This is another thing I hate about the Windows update process: there's no progress indicator or even context. When an update starts you have literally no idea if it's a quick five minute job or if your computer will be out of commission for a couple of hours. All you get is that damned spinner going round and round. You also have no idea if the update is progressing as expected or is stuck somewhere.

By contrast, a Linux distribution is comprised of separate packages, and when you do an update it lists all the packages it's going to modify. It then shows them one by one as it's doing the update. And for the most part it's possible to carry on working (editing text, reading email, surfing the web) while the update is running.

When you're running Windows, you've given control of your computer over to Microsoft, a giant corporation that doesn't care about you. With Linux you're still in the driver's seat.
"You may continue working" was the most annoying lie Windows ever told me (on Win XP. It's generally gotten better since then, but every once in a while gets worse again).

In recent annoyances, Win 10 update told me something along the lines "Update failed. A reboot may resolve the problem." I mean, how can they NOT know if an update requires a reboot or not? Linux and Mac always do.
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Old 17th June 2018, 11:29 PM   #53
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My brother helped me with my no sound on YouTube problem after this latest Microsoft update. At first he was a bit mystified by it, but he changed the headphone jack from front hole to the rear socket (green socket or port at back) and the previous deafening silence has now returned to normal sound.

In the course of my research into the problem I noticed that somebody said the his mother's friend in America had been defrauded out of $130000 by these so-called Microsoft support and Windows support internet fraudsters in India, and she now has no money, and she is trying to get the money back from Mumbai. Something needs to be done about these crooks.
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Old 18th June 2018, 09:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Sure there is. The whole time it was telling me 4%...26%...11%...19%....

As long as there's some change every half hour or so, I'll let it go on.

When BillG says "My Computer", that's exactly what he means. It ain't yours.
Something I've always wondered about progress indicators that show a percentage (and not just the ones for Windows updates).

Percent of what? Because, in most cases, it is clearly not time.
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Old 18th June 2018, 10:01 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Something I've always wondered about progress indicators that show a percentage (and not just the ones for Windows updates).

Percent of what? Because, in most cases, it is clearly not time.
In my experience, the progress is often not even linear. The first 30% may take 1 minute, the middle 3% may take 25 minutes, and the last 29% may take 1 second except for the final 1%, which can take 30 minutes. Not very useful for planning out one's time.

My favorite however is watching rapid progress and completion on a progress bar, which then hits 100% and disappears, leading one to (false) optimism. Which is then followed by the the appearance of another progress bar. And later another. And another. Often each helpfully labeled:
"Downloading"
"Checking files"
"Installing"
"Optimizing"
"Mulling it all Over"
"Doing nothing but annoying the user"
etc.

Or going away for lunch during a long installation only to find on one's return that the installation paused at 10 minutes waiting for your response to a useless prompt, such as "This installation will retain the use of your wireless mouse. Click okay to continue."
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Old 18th June 2018, 10:44 AM   #56
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So last week I was trying to figure out why my video capture card wouldn't work in Windows 10. I found a year-old video showing how to solve the problem if it was a conflict in device drivers; but device manager found no conflicts. So I finally found out that if the serial number was below a certain number (mine was), that it was not compatible with Windows 10. So I went out and bought a new card, installed it and it worked just fine that first night.

Next morning Windows tells me it's got an update that might take awhile. Okay, so I set it to go and the frigging thing takes like 3 hours. Anyway, when it's all done, I go to start up the video capture program and it doesn't work. The preview screen is black instead of blue (ready for input). Well, I remembered that was the problem the guy with the video said he could solve. Sure enough, I went into device manager, found the conflict and resolved it.

It does irk me though. It's almost like my computer sent a message to Microsoft telling them about the new card that worked and they decided to promptly sabotage it.
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Old 18th June 2018, 12:14 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
In my experience, the progress is often not even linear. The first 30% may take 1 minute, the middle 3% may take 25 minutes, and the last 29% may take 1 second except for the final 1%, which can take 30 minutes. Not very useful for planning out one's time.

My favorite however is watching rapid progress and completion on a progress bar, which then hits 100% and disappears, leading one to (false) optimism. Which is then followed by the the appearance of another progress bar. And later another. And another. Often each helpfully labeled:
"Downloading"
"Checking files"
"Installing"
"Optimizing"
"Mulling it all Over"
"Doing nothing but annoying the user"
etc.

Or going away for lunch during a long installation only to find on one's return that the installation paused at 10 minutes waiting for your response to a useless prompt, such as "This installation will retain the use of your wireless mouse. Click okay to continue."
I've written numerous programs that include a "progress bar". It doesn't take a programming genius to make the progress linear. Microsoft must program their updates to purposefully **** it up. Bothers me to no end.
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Old 18th June 2018, 12:18 PM   #58
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Apple uses a progress bar on their various products. Is theirs "correct"?
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Old 18th June 2018, 01:45 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
I've written numerous programs that include a "progress bar". It doesn't take a programming genius to make the progress linear. Microsoft must program their updates to purposefully **** it up. Bothers me to no end.
If the s/w does a deep scan of the work it's going to have to do, then yes to that. It should 'know'.

If it kicks straight off on the basis of typical estimates of fairly clean Win systems then I can get that it can be wildly wrong in its estimates.

I don't housekeep this laptop much, as I create/acquire precious little new data, though no doubt i have countless useless versions of the same logs and whatever. Don't much care if my C: drive is heavily fragmented, as I/O performance is of little importance to me.

Having said all that, the Win updates still drive me mad
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Old 18th June 2018, 01:49 PM   #60
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My sound has never been the same after upgrading to Windows 10.

It's constantly breaking and most of the time it sounds very muffled.

Never had a problem before that fateful day. I've updated drivers, deleted and reinstalled drivers, nothing works. I've given up trying to fix it and just live with it.
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Old 18th June 2018, 02:14 PM   #61
Giordano
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Apple uses a progress bar on their various products. Is theirs "correct"?
Nope. Just as screwed up.

Apple also appears to prefer little circles over bars for indicating progress in downloading apps and music/video files online. More and more of a sector of the circle changes color as the file loads. But at least on my devices, actual functionality takes many minutes after the circle reports a complete download.
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Old 18th June 2018, 02:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
I've written numerous programs that include a "progress bar". It doesn't take a programming genius to make the progress linear. Microsoft must program their updates to purposefully **** it up. Bothers me to no end.
It also doesn't take a programming genious to imagine a scenario where the progress is not linear

E.g: The speed with which files are copied can vary quite much depending on multiple parameters. So do you choose bytes copied vs total bytes to copy as the progress value or the number of files copied vs total files to copy? Both values can fall victim to the "last percent takes forever"-problem.

With a single progress bar covering a multitude of different tasks it almost guarantees that the progress will be jerky with some percents taking a lot longer than others.

In the end it's not there to provide you any sort of clue to when it's finished (because it can't other than when reaching 100%). It's there to say "I'm still working. Don't shut me off."
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Old 18th June 2018, 07:32 PM   #63
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As a programmer who has also written many programs with progress bars, they can be trickier than you might think. Sometimes the time it would take to make a good estimate of the total time and how each step compares to that as a percentage is not inconsiderable. And since you really don't want to increase the time required for the task by any serious fraction to get a good estimate, lots of times you punt and the progress bar is not very accurate. But I agree they could be better in many cases.

Having said that, here's the obligatory XKCD link:
https://xkcd.com/612/
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Old 19th June 2018, 12:04 AM   #64
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Windows helpline training document found
https://xkcd.com/627/
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Old 19th June 2018, 12:59 AM   #65
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Here is a YouTube on the subject of why progress bars are not very reliable
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

There are several reasons, including it is not a priority for software people and another task may start that slows progress.
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Old 19th June 2018, 01:07 AM   #66
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Old 16th July 2018, 03:01 AM   #67
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Ever since that Windows update disaster I have been receiving continual emails saying 'Server Alert: we will terminate your email in the next 24 hours' and of course nothing happens. My sister has also said she has been getting emails supposedly from the Inland Revenue asking for financial and bank details from her. Something needs to be done about this internet fraud.
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Old 16th July 2018, 03:40 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Ever since that Windows update disaster I have been receiving continual emails saying 'Server Alert: we will terminate your email in the next 24 hours' and of course nothing happens. My sister has also said she has been getting emails supposedly from the Inland Revenue asking for financial and bank details from her. Something needs to be done about this internet fraud.
I don't think Microsoft can be held accountable for phishing emails.....
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Old 1st August 2018, 02:25 AM   #69
Henri McPhee
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I received this email form my brother about my no sound on YouTube problem:

Here is the link for the Britec help video that helped us sort the problem out!
Hope it stays working!

Subject: audio link

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...BF&FORM=WRVORC
ix windows 10 audio problem - Bing
Intelligent search from Bing makes it easier to quickly find what you’re looking for and rewards you.
www.bing.com

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 1st August 2018 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 24th August 2018, 02:28 AM   #70
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Since that windows update disaster I have been getting pop ups saying do not switch off your computer because it is in grave peril and phone this Microsoft number which consists of bank fraudsters from India. This is getting on my nerves and I now just ignore it.
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Old 24th August 2018, 03:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Since that windows update disaster I have been getting pop ups saying do not switch off your computer because it is in grave peril and phone this Microsoft number which consists of bank fraudsters from India. This is getting on my nerves and I now just ignore it.
Sounds like your machine needs a deep malware scan. When did you last do that? Are you confident it's safe to use?
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Old 24th August 2018, 05:47 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Sounds like your machine needs a deep malware scan. When did you last do that? Are you confident it's safe to use?
Far safer to do a complete drive wipe and re-install Windows from scratch, you can never be 100% certain malware has been removed. This is especially true when you've experienced update problems and then malware appears, it is often a symptom of very clever malware interfering with malware patches in the update. If the malware has successfully prevented the patches it is also very likely it can hide itself from malware scanning.
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Old 24th August 2018, 06:08 AM   #73
GlennB
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
Far safer to do a complete drive wipe and re-install Windows from scratch, you can never be 100% certain malware has been removed. This is especially true when you've experienced update problems and then malware appears, it is often a symptom of very clever malware interfering with malware patches in the update. If the malware has successfully prevented the patches it is also very likely it can hide itself from malware scanning.
I dare say, but it's a long time since I actually possessed a Windows installation kit. And then you'd need to know what backed-up files were safe.

Anyway, it seems to me Henri is playing a dangerous game by leaving the dodgy behaviour unchallenged.
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Old 29th August 2018, 09:04 AM   #74
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For licensed copies of Windows 10 you can download the Media Creation Toolkit
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Old 29th August 2018, 09:11 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I got through a couple of horrid windows updates by repeated cycles of power on, try to recover, walk away, come back, restart. Sometimes the recovery is incremental.
...which is why I always deactivate Windows update on my computers. Apparently this is no longer possible on Windows 10... meaning that I'll have to disconnect the internet from the computer with my next one.
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Old 29th August 2018, 12:49 PM   #76
Blue Mountain
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...which is why I always deactivate Windows update on my computers. Apparently this is no longer possible on Windows 10... meaning that I'll have to disconnect the internet from the computer with my next one.
For those with a modicum of technical skills, one can set up a secondary computer with a Linux distribution (CentOS, Debian, Ubuntu) and the Pi-Hole ad-blocking DNS resolver. Then in its admin console (Blacklist > Wildcard Blocking) one can set up the names of the Windows telemetry and update servers:
  • data.microsoft.com
  • mp.microsoft.com
  • update.microsoft.com
Because the above are in the Wildcard section, it will block, for example, server1.update.microsoft.com, wsus184.update.microsoft.com, etc. That means any time your Windows system(s) ask for the IP address of an update server it (they) will get an IP address that does not point to an update server.
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Old 29th August 2018, 01:02 PM   #77
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
...which is why I always deactivate Windows update on my computers. Apparently this is no longer possible on Windows 10... meaning that I'll have to disconnect the internet from the computer with my next one.
Could be wrong here, but I thought you could set your connection to 'metered', which disables automatic updates. Or was that a previous version of windows?
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Old 29th August 2018, 01:36 PM   #78
elgarak
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Could be wrong here, but I thought you could set your connection to 'metered', which disables automatic updates. Or was that a previous version of windows?
From the relevant Microsoft Support Database entry:
Quote:
[..]some updates for Windows won't be installed automatically.
(highlighting mine)

It reduces the number of automated updates to whatever they call security relevant (if they do a proper job, that could be good thing. Previous events indicate they do not), but does not turn them off completely.

Last edited by elgarak; 29th August 2018 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 23rd September 2018, 08:00 AM   #79
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I still think Microsoft could do more to prevent audio problems and internet fraud when they do their updates.
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Old 24th September 2018, 05:38 AM   #80
erwinl
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I still think Microsoft could do more to prevent audio problems and internet fraud when they do their updates.
I can imagine.
Listened to the submissions of Forumvision, did you?

But we can hardly lay this, and the fact that your Nigerian prince isn't really forthcoming with his millions, at Microsoft's doorstep.

No matter how much we may wish to.
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