ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Windows 10

Reply
Old 18th August 2018, 07:49 AM   #1
tinribmancer
Hasbarian NWO Templar Cattle
 
tinribmancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Belgium
Posts: 1,626
Question Windows 10 info (getting the nuttery and misinfo out of the way)

I need to upgrade my computer to Windows 10, due to alot of problems that started after a check-up 2 months ago.

The main reason why I haven't done this yet, is because I own 4 games that are not compatible for Win 10: Divine Divinity, Nox, Warhammer 10000: Final Liberation & Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (Shadowrun: Hong Kong Extended Edition recently got a win 10 upgrade, so that's one less) (Need to contact GOG if the others are going to be geting a Win 10 upgrade very soon too)

Now I hardly know anything about win 10, so I'll sum up what I've heard:

1. Win 10 has Privacy issues (main reason why my uncle doesn't want win 10 and he really needs a new computer. Also, I wanna know what those issues are.). Russia has banned Win 10 in 2016 (found this on wikipedia) and according to someone on the internet, Microsoft is currently being sued by the US government over data collecting or something (don't think this is true, since this would've been in the news).

2. You can't choose your own browser anymore and Edge is being stuffed down your throat, unless you go into the configuration settings and set Firefox, Chrome, Opera, ect. as your main browser (this was on the wikipedia article, where both Mozilla and Google complained about this when I checked it last year, however it's not there anymore for some reason)

3. Microsoft wants to track down torrent users with win 10 (which is weird, since using Bittorrent, µTorrent, Vuze, ect... isn't illegal, but torrenting is. Which makes me wonder why torrent clients even exist then, if this is true...) (I have been using RuTracker since 2012, what I torrent are CDs from the 90's or some label rips (even though most songs sound the same as on Youtube, including the LP cracking). And I don't want to end up in Jail. My uncle is also a torrent user, every single Lara Croft game he has (except for Tomb Raider Legend), came from a torrent site (don't know which one).

4. Updates can't be manually stopped and could interrupt game play (really nice if you're in the middle of a boss fight...).

Then there's the usual ****** tinfoil bullcrap, which I'm not buying, like Microsoft releasing Win 10, so they could plung the world towards the NWO and another one linking Win 10 with "throwing people in the FEMA Death Camps" (I checked the google+ account from that Nutty DJ that I know (his non-music account) to see if he regained his senses. And the answer was: Nope!).
__________________
"Bravery Is Not A Function Of Firepower." - JC Denton

"And belief in conspiracy theories is not the function of a higher intellect." - BStrong

Last edited by tinribmancer; 18th August 2018 at 07:52 AM.
tinribmancer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 08:03 AM   #2
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,838
I don't recall Edge being too pushy except in conjunction with IE where IE would tell you about Edge too much. I mainly use other browsers on two Windows 10 machines and Edge is not my default.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 08:55 AM   #3
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 83,931
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
I need to upgrade my computer to Windows 10, due to alot of problems that started after a check-up 2 months ago.

The main reason why I haven't done this yet, is because I own 4 games that are not compatible for Win 10: Divine Divinity, Nox, Warhammer 10000: Final Liberation & Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (Shadowrun: Hong Kong Extended Edition recently got a win 10 upgrade, so that's one less) (Need to contact GOG if the others are going to be geting a Win 10 upgrade very soon too)

Now I hardly know anything about win 10, so I'll sum up what I've heard:

1. Win 10 has Privacy issues (main reason why my uncle doesn't want win 10 and he really needs a new computer. Also, I wanna know what those issues are.). Russia has banned Win 10 in 2016 (found this on wikipedia) and according to someone on the internet, Microsoft is currently being sued by the US government over data collecting or something (don't think this is true, since this would've been in the news).
Initial release of Windows 10 had a lot of "information sharing" options defaulted to "yes". This has now been corrected and you can choose the options you want when you do a fresh install or go into settings.
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
2. You can't choose your own browser anymore and Edge is being stuffed down your throat, unless you go into the configuration settings and set Firefox, Chrome, Opera, ect. as your main browser (this was on the wikipedia article, where both Mozilla and Google complained about this when I checked it last year, however it's not there anymore for some reason)
I only used Edge to download Chrome. Once Chrome is installed you can choose to have it as your default HTML viewer and so on. (If MS didn't include a browser how would you get online to download another browser - expect people to set up FTP and so on to download their browser of choice?)
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
3. Microsoft wants to track down torrent users with win 10 (which is weird, since using Bittorrent, µTorrent, Vuze, ect... isn't illegal, but torrenting is. Which makes me wonder why torrent clients even exist then, if this is true...) (I have been using RuTracker since 2012, what I torrent are CDs from the 90's or some label rips (even though most songs sound the same as on Youtube, including the LP cracking). And I don't want to end up in Jail. My uncle is also a torrent user, every single Lara Croft game he has (except for Tomb Raider Legend), came from a torrent site (don't know which one).
Not heard of this but sounds like paranoid users to me. Plus if you don't want to go to jail then pay the people who own the rights to the IP you want.
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
4. Updates can't be manually stopped and could interrupt game play (really nice if you're in the middle of a boss fight...).
Yes they can.
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
Then there's the usual ****** tinfoil bullcrap, which I'm not buying, like Microsoft releasing Win 10, so they could plung the world towards the NWO and another one linking Win 10 with "throwing people in the FEMA Death Camps" (I checked the google+ account from that Nutty DJ that I know (his non-music account) to see if he regained his senses. And the answer was: Nope!).
Must of what you posted seems to be in the tinfoil territory if you ask me!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 10:05 AM   #4
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,151
In my experience, win10 updates have been completely unobtrusive. They never interrupt anything except sometimes bootup or shut down.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 12:26 PM   #5
grmcdorman
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
3. Microsoft wants to track down torrent users with win 10 (which is weird, since using Bittorrent, µTorrent, Vuze, ect... isn't illegal, but torrenting is. Which makes me wonder why torrent clients even exist then, if this is true...) (I have been using RuTracker since 2012, what I torrent are CDs from the 90's
Neither the Bittorrent clients nor the protocol itself are illegal. What may be illegal, depending on your jurisdiction, is obtaining copies of commercial (for-sale) software without paying for it, regardless of the channel*. This is known as pirating (see, for example, The Pirate Bay). For physical goods, this is theft; some argue that software is different, but I personally don't agree with that.

Bittorrent has become associated with pirating simply because it's an efficient way for people to obtain the stolen ("pirated") software. However, it is also used to distribute legitimate software; for example, Linux distributions or Libre Office.

I don't believe Microsoft has built any sort of [eta: Bittorrent] tracking into Windows; it'd be all over the internet if this was true. However, ISPs have been known to track Bittorrent usage (for example, for a while Bell Canada slowed down customers using Bittorrent during the daytime). Companies, notably recording studios and movie studios, also tried to do this to go after individuals they believed were downloading illegal copies of music or movies. I don't know if they are still doing this. The tracking in both cases was outside of your computer, and either at the ISP or on the Internet at large.

* This doesn't include vendor give-aways, of course. Basically, if the equivalent physical good would be legitimately obtained, so would the software.
__________________
"Hello. My name is Inigo Skywalker. You are my father. Prepare to die."

Last edited by grmcdorman; 18th August 2018 at 12:29 PM.
grmcdorman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 12:28 PM   #6
grmcdorman
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In my experience, win10 updates have been completely unobtrusive. They never interrupt anything except sometimes bootup or shut down.
Likewise. I've been using Win 10 since Microsoft's free upgrade program; never had any issues.

The only notable issues I am aware of is that some older programs may not work as well on Win 10, and the privacy issues already mentioned. There are many online guides to changing these settings; whether the remaining data collection (and there is some) is a concern is up to you.
__________________
"Hello. My name is Inigo Skywalker. You are my father. Prepare to die."
grmcdorman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 03:29 PM   #7
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,318
1) Windows 10 HAS some privacy issues, in particular on the Home Edition, less on the Pro. It has become better since the launch, when it had dozens of different settings with confusing meanings related to privacy. Nowadays, there are only a few buttons, and they're quite easy to understand. But you cannot completely turn off data being sent home to the mothership, only dial it down a great deal. The only editions where you have complete control (ostensibly) over such "phoning home" stuff are the Enterprise editions. The terms and conditions read rather nastily: They reserve the right (and have the ability) to grab any data they want from your machine, triggered remotely, and even grab the copyright on this data. Of course that are mostly CYA terms, and they promise to not ever do this until they want to resolve some problem (the copyright issue is there so that they can legally send data to 3rd parties to discuss problems, say, when a 3rd party app crashes), but there it is. And Win 10 does have some rather questionable behavior issues related to that (see below for a few examples).

2) Nope. You can use whatever browser you want. Every once in a while there's some push by Microsoft to Edge, but it's no big deal. (Windows 10 uses the notification system and the lock screen to push messages which, IMO, essentially are advertising, mostly for Office, Edge and other MS products. You can turn it off on the lock screen, but not via the notifications, as far as I have observed.)

3) Haven't heard that one. First impulse (without googling or checking) is that it's not true.

4) Updates can be stopped. They CAN be intrusive, and yes, I have seen Windows 10 machines popping up the wish to reboot and update at inopportune moments, but you probably can turn that off if you dive a bit deeper into the settings as I have (I don't use Win 10 much myself, but I am the admin for my mom's Win 10 laptop, which means I have to run it every once in a while, mostly to install updates, as she doesn't use it much herself.) Win 10 has some less nice issues related to updates: it wants to share your bandwidth and your hard drive space to deliver updates to OTHER machines (turn off-able), it does install things it shouldn't (mostly installers for games from the app store. Don't take much space, nothing that actually runs until you click on it, but clutters your start menu, and, frankly, shouldn't be done), and it resets settings (for instance, the above mentioned privacy settings.)

Personally, I would not recommend using Windows 10 Home for paying work, such as a small business owner or freelancer. It's OK for a private machine.

Last edited by elgarak; 18th August 2018 at 03:39 PM.
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 11:03 PM   #8
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
I've found Windows 10 to be a rather user-hostile system. Case in point that I discovered just tonight while working on a friend's system. For ages Windows has had the idea of "default application." In tonight's case, email. Clicking on an email link on a web site would send a message to Windows indicating the user wants to send an email message. Windows would determine which client program the user told it to use, start it, and pass to it the "To:" email address and perhaps even a subject line.

In older versions of Windows, one could set any app as the email client: Outlook, MS Office Outlook, Thunderbird, Eudora, HappyMail (I made that one up)—if it was on your computer, you could set it as a default email client.

On Windows 10 you have two choices: Windows Mail (which gets worse with every iteration, not better) or "Download from the store." If the app you want to use isn't in the store, you can't select it.

All right, you may be able to set a registry entry for the default email client, but that's beyond the technical ability of the vast majority of Windows users. That's user-hostile, not user friendly.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 11:09 PM   #9
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Further to installing system updates on shutdown. I hate that. I assist people with their Windows issues, and many times I'll set up or update a program that says it wants a reboot. So I do it. Then I see "Windows is installing updates. Please wait." ARGH! There is no indication whatsoever of the extent of the update! The system could be simply updating a minor app and will be back in 30 seconds, or it could be installing the latest semi-annual update and be out of commission for over an hour ... and possibly leave me with a system that needs additional work to make it ready again for the user.

About the only way I've discovered to stop this horrid behaviour is to install the Pi-hole ad-blocking DNS server and add the Windows update servers it its blacklists.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2018, 11:25 PM   #10
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,830
I feel like I should knock on wood before saying this, but my experience with Windows 10 has mostly been positive. There was one time, when the computer wanted to update and it mentioned that it might be awhile, and the doggone thing took like three hours. And they change the locations of stuff--Control Panel is now a sub-menu choice from Windows System. Ironically so far the only game that I can't seem to run is Microsoft's own Age of Empires II.

But aside from that it's been fine. I originally bought my current computer with Win 8.1, but it was understood that my license for the former allowed me to install 10 when it became available. I waited for a week or two to hear whether the experience was terrible, and then went ahead and bit the bullet.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 04:52 AM   #11
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,318
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Further to installing system updates on shutdown. I hate that. I assist people with their Windows issues, and many times I'll set up or update a program that says it wants a reboot. So I do it. Then I see "Windows is installing updates. Please wait." ARGH! There is no indication whatsoever of the extent of the update! The system could be simply updating a minor app and will be back in 30 seconds, or it could be installing the latest semi-annual update and be out of commission for over an hour ... and possibly leave me with a system that needs additional work to make it ready again for the user.

About the only way I've discovered to stop this horrid behaviour is to install the Pi-hole ad-blocking DNS server and add the Windows update servers it its blacklists.
The updates_upon_shutdown_or_boot are not a new thing. They already happened with Windows XP. I had a laptop back then that essentially amounted to a BYOD. Drove me nuts when I wanted to shut down at the end of my work day to get home... It also did not help that the sleep_on_closing_lid never worked properly, so I HAD to shut it down before going home or to work. (NB: That was not a cheap laptop. It was a $1,500 HP.)
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 06:37 AM   #12
paulhutch
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA
Posts: 2,272
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
I need to upgrade my computer to Windows 10, due to alot of problems that started after a check-up 2 months ago.

1. Win 10 has Privacy issues

2. You can't choose your own browser anymore and Edge is being stuffed down your throat,

3. Microsoft wants to track down torrent users with win 10

4. Updates can't be manually stopped a
1. Basically like Google and Apples OS's the default settings are to share more info with them then some people like. I find overall it is less than what Google takes by default and that doesn't bother me, so I also leave Windows 10's settings at their default level. You can adjust the settings, see this article:
https://www.howtogeek.com/221864/dig...vacy-settings/

2. As others have said it's not true. I use Chrome and Firefox almost exclusively and other than the occasional notification suggesting I try Edge it never prevents installing, using or setting as default any other browser you want. On my home office PC I have been using Edge for my employers Office 365 account while also using Chrome and Firefox at the same time 8 hours a day during the work week. Edge is steadily getting better and I can see myself using it more as it steadily improves.

3. Never seen that or even heard about it before, likely just a stupid conspiracy theory, I'm a qBittorrent user for Linux distros that I use.

4. You can pause updates for up to 35 days on the Pro version under advanced Windows Updates options.

Last edited by paulhutch; 19th August 2018 at 06:41 AM.
paulhutch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 09:41 AM   #13
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,838
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
On Windows 10 you have two choices: Windows Mail (which gets worse with every iteration, not better) or "Download from the store." If the app you want to use isn't in the store, you can't select it.
I have Windows 10 Pro which may make a difference, but it lists every potential mail app I have installed and they all work fine when selected. No registry edits required.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 19th August 2018 at 09:42 AM.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 10:19 AM   #14
MinimumWageShill
Scholar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 63
Firstly I would say that Windows 10 Updates can be horrendous. They will completely wreck drivers for hardware such as WiFi cards etc and make them impossible to use.

As from today Windows 10 has decided that archive.org is a 'bad site', as this is the site that I get most of my NTRS docs from it is beyond annoying.

However, updates can, at the moment; be stopped by going to run, services.msc. Going to 'Windows Update', double clicking and choosing stop service (if it is running). Selecting 'Log On' and entering .\guest with no password.

If you haven't already I would suggest you install Linux (I know, I know) on a second machine if available or have a Linux boot disk.
MinimumWageShill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 10:33 AM   #15
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,838
Originally Posted by MinimumWageShill View Post
As from today Windows 10 has decided that archive.org is a 'bad site', as this is the site that I get most of my NTRS docs from it is beyond annoying.
Huh? What does that mean? I can get to archive.org just fine.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 11:26 AM   #16
MinimumWageShill
Scholar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Huh? What does that mean? I can get to archive.org just fine.
Annoying doesn't mean I can't access it, it means err... annoying
MinimumWageShill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 11:30 AM   #17
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,838
So what is annoying?
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 12:56 PM   #18
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 23,712
We have Win10 on 3 PCs now, with no major problems. FireFox and Chrome are installed on all of them with no issues at all. Updates can be a bloody nuisance but manageable. In an office environment - as some have mentioned - I can imagine they're a colossal nuisance.
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 01:59 PM   #19
DickK
Graduate Poster
 
DickK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: West London
Posts: 1,123
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
I have Windows 10 Pro which may make a difference, but it lists every potential mail app I have installed and they all work fine when selected. No registry edits required.

Same here, except I'm on Windows 10 Home. Using Thunderbird quite happily and it's what gets launched when I click on an email address on a web page.

ETA: Windows is fully up-to-date.

Last edited by DickK; 19th August 2018 at 02:01 PM.
DickK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 07:14 PM   #20
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
The updates_upon_shutdown_or_boot are not a new thing. They already happened with Windows XP. I had a laptop back then that essentially amounted to a BYOD. Drove me nuts when I wanted to shut down at the end of my work day to get home... It also did not help that the sleep_on_closing_lid never worked properly, so I HAD to shut it down before going home or to work. (NB: That was not a cheap laptop. It was a $1,500 HP.)
True. What has changed is the user's ability to defer updates or turn them off altogether. While that's a huge boon for security (security patches are pretty much guaranteed to be applied,) it's really frustrating for people when they do a quick reboot and it turns into half an hour of watching that idiot spinner. Why oh why can't Microsoft supply some useful information on the update process? For the 98% of people who are content to watch the spinner, display it. But please provide some way for power users to see what the hell is going on.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 07:16 PM   #21
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Originally Posted by DickK View Post
Same here, except I'm on Windows 10 Home. Using Thunderbird quite happily and it's what gets launched when I click on an email address on a web page.

ETA: Windows is fully up-to-date.
Interesting. I'm curious: does Thunderbird show up as an option for the default email application?
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 07:57 PM   #22
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,151
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
True. What has changed is the user's ability to defer updates or turn them off altogether. While that's a huge boon for security (security patches are pretty much guaranteed to be applied,) it's really frustrating for people when they do a quick reboot and it turns into half an hour of watching that idiot spinner. Why oh why can't Microsoft supply some useful information on the update process? For the 98% of people who are content to watch the spinner, display it. But please provide some way for power users to see what the hell is going on.
You're not a power user, though.

Also, and related to the previous point, why are you doing "quick reboots"?

ETA: Also, in the OP you indicate that you have not yet upgraded to Win10. But in subsequent posts you write as if you are currently experiencing the effects of having already upgraded. Which is it?

Last edited by theprestige; 19th August 2018 at 08:00 PM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2018, 10:38 PM   #23
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,838
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Interesting. I'm curious: does Thunderbird show up as an option for the default email application?
If you've already installed it. Windows 10 doesn't offer to download it and install it if that is what you are thinking.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 01:44 AM   #24
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,279
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Also, and related to the previous point, why are you doing "quick reboots"?

ETA: Also, in the OP you indicate that you have not yet upgraded to Win10. But in subsequent posts you write as if you are currently experiencing the effects of having already upgraded. Which is it?
From an earlier post above:
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I assist people with their Windows issues, and many times I'll set up or update a program that says it wants a reboot.
And yes, some programs ask to do a restart and, if an update is hanging around then Windows will handle that at the same time.
I have been caught on that one as well, and it is a tad frustrating if you suddenly lose a laptop for a while because it's gone into update mode.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 02:50 AM   #25
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,318
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
I've found Windows 10 to be a rather user-hostile system. Case in point that I discovered just tonight while working on a friend's system. For ages Windows has had the idea of "default application." In tonight's case, email. Clicking on an email link on a web site would send a message to Windows indicating the user wants to send an email message. Windows would determine which client program the user told it to use, start it, and pass to it the "To:" email address and perhaps even a subject line.

In older versions of Windows, one could set any app as the email client: Outlook, MS Office Outlook, Thunderbird, Eudora, HappyMail (I made that one up)—if it was on your computer, you could set it as a default email client.

On Windows 10 you have two choices: Windows Mail (which gets worse with every iteration, not better) or "Download from the store." If the app you want to use isn't in the store, you can't select it.

All right, you may be able to set a registry entry for the default email client, but that's beyond the technical ability of the vast majority of Windows users. That's user-hostile, not user friendly.
What are you talking about?

On my mom's Win 10 Home laptop, I could installing Thunderbird just fine. I could also select Thunderbird as the default email client in the settings (no need to go to the registry). OK, updates have since then reset the default, meaning I had to change it back after the update, but it was always possible.

Unless something has changed in the last couple of months, that is. Or unless there's a bug – google tells me that there are frequent complaints that changing/setting the default email app is not possible, but that swings both ways: First impression is that are as many complaints that they cannot set Windows Mail as there are for other apps.
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 03:20 AM   #26
DickK
Graduate Poster
 
DickK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: West London
Posts: 1,123
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Interesting. I'm curious: does Thunderbird show up as an option for the default email application?

It certainly does...

Default Email Settings.jpg
DickK is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 03:23 AM   #27
Worm
Master Poster
 
Worm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,321
Mostly covered above, but some additional thoughts:

1. Any assessment that includes 'according to someone on the internet' is immediately suspect IMO.

2. Absolute rubbish. Edge is the 'preferred' browser from a MS perspective, but it's perfectly possible to ignore it if you wish. Set a new default and forget about it.

3. Total misunderstanding of what torrenting is and how it works. Neither the software nor the protocol are illegal. Some of the content may well be illegal, but that is a personal ethical issue, nothing to do with the software. If you're concern about an OS is that it doesn't actively help you to breach copyright and intellectual property rights, then I'm not sure anyone can help you.

4. You can (within limits) control how updates are handled. I think MS have perhaps gone a bit far in not giving enough information on what updates are being done, but you can choose when they happen.
__________________
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov

Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness
Worm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 09:04 AM   #28
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're not a power user, though.
What the hell are you talking about? I've been a computer user, programmer, system administrator, and "power user" for nearly forty years. I've worked on Kronos, HP/MPE, CP/M, PC DOS, mainframe DOS/VSE, IBM EDX, Windows since 2.0, OS/2, HP/UX, AIX, BSD, and a dozen distributions of Linux.

Quote:
Also, and related to the previous point, why are you doing "quick reboots"?
Sometimes a service goes AWOL and won't respond to a request to restart it. Sometimes an anti-virus update will require a reboot. Sometimes the system just goes to hell and you want to do a reboot to get it going again.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

Last edited by Blue Mountain; 20th August 2018 at 09:14 AM.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 09:08 AM   #29
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
What are you talking about?

On my mom's Win 10 Home laptop, I could installing Thunderbird just fine. I could also select Thunderbird as the default email client in the settings (no need to go to the registry). OK, updates have since then reset the default, meaning I had to change it back after the update, but it was always possible.

Unless something has changed in the last couple of months, that is. Or unless there's a bug – google tells me that there are frequent complaints that changing/setting the default email app is not possible, but that swings both ways: First impression is that are as many complaints that they cannot set Windows Mail as there are for other apps.
Originally Posted by DickK View Post
It certainly does...

Attachment 38733
Good to know. My friend is running Opera Mail, and when I tried to change the default Mail app from Windows Mail to Opera it wasn't one of the options available. Perhaps reinstalling it would set up a registry entry for Windows 10 indicating it's an available mail app.

If I recall correctly, in the dialogue for selecting a default app, one of the options on older versions of Windows was "Choose program." Meaning you could select any program as a default app for mail, internet, music player, etc—even if the program wasn't capable of handling it. That option appears to have disappeared from Windows 10, which meant I couldn't search for and assign Opera Mail as the default mail app.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.

Last edited by Blue Mountain; 20th August 2018 at 09:20 AM.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 09:33 AM   #30
Mongrel
Begging for Scraps
 
Mongrel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 20 minutes in the future
Posts: 1,841
Just type "Default" in the search box and you should see Default App Settings (it may be under the system header). Just click that and you should be able to do what you want
__________________
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin

...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer
Mongrel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 10:20 AM   #31
paulhutch
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA
Posts: 2,272
It could be that the Opera Mail installer did not designate itself as a "mailto" protocol handler when it installed on Windows 10.

For file type handlers you can still choose any application even one that did not register itself as being capable of handling that file type. However you have to do it through File Explorer's Open with -> Choose another app right click menu not in system settings.

For protocol handlers you can't choose an arbitrary program like you can for file types, the program must have registered itself as a handler for that protocol for it to be chosen without a registry hack. IIRC the change was made to make it harder for a malware to set itself up for click jacking various network protocols without user permission.
paulhutch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 10:59 AM   #32
RecoveringYuppy
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 7,838
FWIW Opera registered itself as a mail handler on my system.
__________________
REJ (Robert E Jones) posting anonymously under my real name for 30 years.

Make a fire for a man and you keep him warm for a day. Set him on fire and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 12:46 PM   #33
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Just type "Default" in the search box and you should see Default App Settings (it may be under the system header). Just click that and you should be able to do what you want
This is certainly useful information, but if you look at the post immediately above yours you'll see that's what I was trying to do, without success.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th August 2018, 12:51 PM   #34
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
It could be that the Opera Mail installer did not designate itself as a "mailto" protocol handler when it installed on Windows 10.
<snip>
For protocol handlers you can't choose an arbitrary program like you can for file types, the program must have registered itself as a handler for that protocol for it to be chosen without a registry hack. IIRC the change was made to make it harder for a malware to set itself up for click jacking various network protocols without user permission.
Thanks for the term protocol handler. That's the search term I need to figure out how to update the registry, should we decide to pursue this further on my friend's system.

Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
FWIW Opera registered itself as a mail handler on my system.
Good to see that it worked as expected on your system. It currently appears that Something Went Wrong on my friend's system, and as a result we can't currently choose Opera Mail as the default mail handler. But it looks like it's related to that one system and not to Windows 10 as a whole.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2018, 05:00 AM   #35
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 30,151
Stupid question: Is Opera mail installed yet?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2018, 09:08 AM   #36
Blue Mountain
Resident Skeptical Hobbit
 
Blue Mountain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg
Posts: 5,469
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Stupid question: Is Opera mail installed yet?
Indeed it is. My friend's been using Opera for years. Initially it was Opera, the combined web browser and email program. Later Opera split the browser and email into two separate programs, and both are on the system now.
__________________
The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)
Canadian or living in Canada? PM me if you want an entry on the list of Canadians on the forum.
Blue Mountain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 07:49 PM   #37
Molinaro
Illuminator
 
Molinaro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,227
Originally Posted by tinribmancer View Post
The main reason why I haven't done this yet, is because I own 4 games that are not compatible for Win 10: Divine Divinity, Nox, Warhammer 10000: Final Liberation & Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (Shadowrun: Hong Kong Extended Edition recently got a win 10 upgrade, so that's one less) (Need to contact GOG if the others are going to be geting a Win 10 upgrade very soon too)

I have no problems running Divine Divinity and Arcanum with Win10.
__________________
100% Cannuck!
Molinaro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2018, 10:00 PM   #38
novaphile
Quester of Doglets
Moderator
 
novaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,013
I think I know what is going on.

Sometimes, Win10 displays scrollable lists with NO INDICATION that they are scrollable lists.

Depending on the size of the dialog, you may say: "What? Why isn't my application listed?"

It turns out that you can scroll the list with a mouse etc. even though there are no displayed scroll bars.

Because controls that users can understand are not hipster enough.
__________________
We would be better, and braver, to engage in enquiry, rather than indulge in the idle fancy, that we already know -- Plato.
novaphile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2018, 07:05 AM   #39
paulhutch
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Blackstone River Valley, MA
Posts: 2,272
Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
Sometimes, Win10 displays scrollable lists with NO INDICATION that they are scrollable lists.
I've not encountered that anywhere in Windows, any example program that shows this major error.

Many dialogs have scroll bars that are thin and hidden until your mouse is inside the scroll-able list (e.g. start menu) but never no indication. I certainly can imagine a poorly designed program from another company where they failed to enable scroll bars but I've never encountered one from Microsoft.
paulhutch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2018, 07:35 AM   #40
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,318
Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
I've not encountered that anywhere in Windows, any example program that shows this major error.

Many dialogs have scroll bars that are thin and hidden until your mouse is inside the scroll-able list (e.g. start menu) but never no indication. I certainly can imagine a poorly designed program from another company where they failed to enable scroll bars but I've never encountered one from Microsoft.
No, there are scrollable boxes which are not recognizable as separate boxes, and have no scroll bars unless you scroll in them (say, with the mouse scroll wheel.) The update info box is one – the one which should inform you what the updates do and what the state of the updates are (though the design and behavior changed a couple of times since Win 10 launched).

There are four to seven (depending on how you count) different design schemes used throughout Windows 10, with different design elements, decoration, tools, and fonts. There are still the old Windows 7 AND XP like windows, the others are attempts to integrate the modern/metro/tile/whatever-name-it-ever-had touchscreen scheme, which had never been fully developed design-wise, so it's chaotic. It's needlessly confusing (and caused me to catch malware since there was a pop-up browser window that I couldn't immediately recognize as such and for tad too long assumed to be part of an installer).

Last edited by elgarak; 26th August 2018 at 07:41 AM.
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Computers and the Internet

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:08 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.