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Old 16th September 2020, 04:08 PM   #41
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
Option 3 is to keep the EC but revise enough state constitutions to pledge their EC votes to the popular vote winner. Once you reach the tipping point, the EC vote becomes meaningless.
That might be a reasonable proposition if the candidate with the most votes got an absolute majority of the votes but not otherwise.

Even so, I suspect that California would abandon the accord the first time they had to tip all their EC votes to the GOP - especially if a Democrat would have won otherwise.
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Old 16th September 2020, 05:11 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Babbylonian - I think you misunderstood what Galaxie was proposing. The popular vote - at the national level. If states making up more than half the EC pledge to do that, then the EC does indeed become meaningless.

National Popular Vote Interstate Compact
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Galaxie didn't specify, but that compact means that the states pledge their electors to the national popular vote winner. Big difference in how that sentence reads.
My bad. At that point, though, why have an electoral college at all?

My fundamental premise is this: The problem is that the electoral college exists. Full stop.

In addition, any solution that requires states to make extraconstitutional agreements is fundamentally a bad idea because a) such agreements would be subject to being fairly easily negated or rendered ineffective as political winds shift in each state and b) it's questionable whether such agreements would be upheld when they're inevitably challenged in court.

Regardless, I apologize to Galaxie for my misunderstanding.
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Old 16th September 2020, 05:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
My bad. At that point, though, why have an electoral college at all?
.
Because it's in the constitution, so getting rid of it is harder.

But with the approach described, you don't need 3/4 of the states to approve, just enough states to account for more than half of the EC.
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Old 16th September 2020, 05:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
My bad. At that point, though, why have an electoral college at all?

My fundamental premise is this: The problem is that the electoral college exists. Full stop.

In addition, any solution that requires states to make extraconstitutional agreements is fundamentally a bad idea because a) such agreements would be subject to being fairly easily negated or rendered ineffective as political winds shift in each state and b) it's questionable whether such agreements would be upheld when they're inevitably challenged in court.

Regardless, I apologize to Galaxie for my misunderstanding.
To answer b), there's a lot of precedent saying the states can assign their electors however they please; there is only the requirement that they do.
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Old 16th September 2020, 07:15 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The media is not your friend, rocky.
Especially the New York Post!
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Old 16th September 2020, 07:33 PM   #46
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"Well the Founding Fathers made the EC to...."

Hold that thought.

*Gets in Time Machine. Goes back Revolutionary Times. Finds Thomas Jefferson.*

Me. "Mr. Jefferson. I'm from the future. The whole EC thing, we've got a problem with it in the future. Making some big imbalance."
Jefferson. "Well what seems to to the problem."
Me. "Well the 40 million people who live in California are represented by only...."
Jefferson *Spits out tea* "The how many people that live in the what now?"
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Old 16th September 2020, 07:41 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Well the Founding Fathers made the EC to...."

Hold that thought.

*Gets in Time Machine. Goes back Revolutionary Times. Finds Thomas Jefferson.*

Me. "Mr. Jefferson. I'm from the future. The whole EC thing, we've got a problem with it in the future. Making some big imbalance."
Jefferson. "Well what seems to to the problem."
Me. "Well the 40 million people who live in California are represented by only...."
Jefferson *Spits out tea* "The how many people that live in the what now?"
Wait until you tell him about automatic weapons and what they've done with the 2A. He's gonna **** him some bricks.
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Old 17th September 2020, 04:29 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Especially the New York Post!
One man's New York Post is another's NPR. The left wants to dump it to rig things their way same as the right wants to keep it to rig things theirs.
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Old 17th September 2020, 04:47 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The left wants to dump it to rig things their way...
Care to explain how?
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Old 17th September 2020, 04:54 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Care to explain how?
They feel the EC is in the way of their guy getting in, the right fears ,mail in voting the same way. Each side wants the method that favors them, is it really that hard?
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:02 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
They feel the EC is in the way of their guy getting in, the right fears ,mail in voting the same way. Each side wants the method that favors them, is it really that hard?
Now please explain how wanting an electoral system that is actually representative of the votes of the electorate is "rigging" the system.

Let's say that voting machines were rigged so that every third vote for candidate A was counted for candidate B. If someone wanted the machines to accurately record all votes, how is that "rigging" the election in their favor? If candidate A really does have more votes, then counting it that way isn't cheating.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:13 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
One man's New York Post is another's NPR.
And one man's road-kill gumbo is another man's gourmet feast.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:18 AM   #53
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"If we cheat we win. If we don't cheat you win. Therefore wanting no cheating just means you want your side to win."

Stunning. Simply stunning.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:20 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If we cheat we win. If we don't cheat you win. Therefore wanting no cheating just means you want your side to win."

Stunning. Simply stunning.
No, what's stunning is you cant see the obvious which is yes, each side favors the scenario favoring their candidate. Those lost in the dogma of either side are seemingly blind to that simple fact.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:21 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
Now please explain how wanting an electoral system that is actually representative of the votes of the electorate is "rigging" the system.

Let's say that voting machines were rigged so that every third vote for candidate A was counted for candidate B. If someone wanted the machines to accurately record all votes, how is that "rigging" the election in their favor? If candidate A really does have more votes, then counting it that way isn't cheating.
I gave you your answer, spare me the endless what ifs. Take your answer agree with it or don't.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If we cheat we win. If we don't cheat you win. Therefore wanting no cheating just means you want your side to win."

Stunning. Simply stunning.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:38 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
I gave you your answer, spare me the endless what ifs. Take your answer agree with it or don't.
You didn't answer my question. I specifically asked you to explain how wanting a system that accurately tallies each citizen's vote could be considered "rigging" the system.

rig /rig/

verb
manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person.
"the results of the elections had been rigged"

noun
a trick or way of swindling someone.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:41 AM   #58
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Generally I despite the "privilege" argument but I think it fits here.

When the system has been rigged for so long, it being made fair feels like cheating to the side that getting the good end of it.

That's a personality trait someone has checked on their troll persona's character sheet.
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"If we cheat we win. If we don't cheat you win. Therefore wanting no cheating just means you want your side to win."

Stunning. Simply stunning.
"You just want the other side to play fair because you would have won if they hadn't cheated, so you're cheating too."
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:41 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
One man's New York Post is another's NPR. The left wants to dump it to rig things their way same as the right wants to keep it to rig things theirs.
Perhaps you would care to describe an election process that is not "rigged"?
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Old 17th September 2020, 05:44 AM   #61
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:15 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
You didn't answer my question. I specifically asked you to explain how wanting a system that accurately tallies each citizen's vote could be considered "rigging" the system.

rig /rig/

verb
manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person.
"the results of the elections had been rigged"

noun
a trick or way of swindling someone.
There are other definitions for the verb rig......unless you think when we rig a submarine for dive we are doing something fraudulent.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:19 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There are other definitions for the verb rig......unless you think when we rig a submarine for dive we are doing something fraudulent.
Is that the usage of the verb that you believe the poster intended?
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:22 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
You didn't answer my question. I specifically asked you to explain how wanting a system that accurately tallies each citizen's vote could be considered "rigging" the system.

rig /rig/

verb
manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to produce a result or situation that is advantageous to a particular person.
"the results of the elections had been rigged"

noun
a trick or way of swindling someone.
Its rigged in the eyes of the opposing side if they dont feel they have the advantage, left feels the EC gives the right the advantage to rig the system, the left wants it gone to do the opposite which will be seen as rigged by the right.

If this forum wasn't dominated by leftist dogma this wouldnt be so hard.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:28 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Is that the usage of the verb that you believe the poster intended?
Intent seems irrelevant. The question was how it "could be considered." One way it could be considered that does not require that the poster intended it.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:30 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Its rigged in the eyes of the opposing side if they dont feel they have the advantage, left feels the EC gives the right the advantage to rig the system, the left wants it gone to do the opposite which will be seen as rigged by the right.

If this forum wasn't dominated by leftist dogma this wouldnt be so hard.
You don't have a right to perception and you didn't object to the definition. In that case, as the left is not engaged in fraud, no feeling on the right matters....it wouldn't be rigged.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:32 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Its rigged in the eyes of the opposing side if they dont feel they have the advantage, left feels the EC gives the right the advantage to rig the system, the left wants it gone to do the opposite which will be seen as rigged by the right.

If this forum wasn't dominated by leftist dogma this wouldnt be so hard.
Can you describe a non "rigged" election then?
How would votes be weighted in an election that was not "rigged"?
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:51 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Can you describe a non "rigged" election then?
How would votes be weighted in an election that was not "rigged"?
You miss the point, each side wants to rig it in their favor, moving on.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:54 AM   #69
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How is one person one vote (with RCV or runoff) systemically rigged in favour of one specific group?
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:54 AM   #70
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I'll have a go.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Can you describe a non "rigged" election then?
You are rigging an election if you alter the rules, or practices in the running of the election with the purpose of giving yourself an advantage (obviously there will be disagreement on what people's purpose actually is). I would say on that basis that it is not at all uncommon for elections have some element of rigging. Good signs of a non-rigged election would be that the rules and practices of the election are either long established, or if new are broadly agreed by the main parties contending the election.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How would votes be weighted in an election that was not "rigged"?
Doesn't this presuppose that there is a weighting that would be the non-rigged one?
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:56 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Its rigged in the eyes of the opposing side if they dont feel they have the advantage, left feels the EC gives the right the advantage to rig the system, the left wants it gone to do the opposite which will be seen as rigged by the right.

If this forum wasn't dominated by leftist dogma this wouldnt be so hard.
You wrote:
Originally Posted by rockysmith76
The left wants to dump it to rig things their way same as the right wants to keep it to rig things theirs.
You clearly implied that both sides were engaging in equivalent levels of engineering the outcome of election, consistent with your frequent use of "both sides suck" . You didn't say anything about it only seeming like cheating to those who would lose their advantage. Now that you've been asked to explain how wanting a fair system can be considered cheating, you're weaseling out of it.
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Old 17th September 2020, 06:59 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Can you describe a non "rigged" election then?
How would votes be weighted in an election that was not "rigged"?
He won't answer that, for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'll have a go.(...)
Nice sophistry. More complex than "they will just send them to Madagascar", but worth same amount.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:14 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You miss the point...
No, we get it. It's just a silly point.


Quote:
each side wants to rig it in their favor...
But those two opposing views are not equivalent in terms of moral justification. If each side wanted a system that was engineered to misrepresent the vote tally in their favor, then they would, indeed, both want a rigged system weighted in their favor. But if one side wants a system that accurately reflects majority selection, then even if they were expecting to win with such a system it doesn't make their motivation morally equivalent to those who want a rigged system because they expect to win because of it.


Quote:
...moving on.
Can we move on to the content of the "news article" then?
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:29 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
But those two opposing views are not equivalent in terms of moral justification. If each side wanted a system that was engineered to misrepresent the vote tally in their favor, then they would, indeed, both want a rigged system weighted in their favor. But if one side wants a system that accurately reflects majority selection, then even if they were expecting to win with such a system it doesn't make their motivation morally equivalent to those who want a rigged system because they expect to win because of it.
These are the rules of the game that were agreed to. All that is needed to change them, as was decided when the rules were agreed to, is a super majority. At the point where there is a super majority, all this stuff about whether one is changing things to get political advantage would be off the table. It is not altogether unreasonable of Republicans to see sticking to the agreed rules of the game as "fair". You have a definition of "fair" that you prefer. Weirdly both definitions of "fair" favour the sides who hold them. Bashing these two definitions of "fair" into one another serves no purpose.

Incidentally, I suspect there would be other impacts to consider if the winner was decided on a pure majority. This would certainly increase Republican concerns, justified or otherwise, about fraud and error in the election.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:30 AM   #75
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"LOL Don't hate the player, hate the game" is a lot easier pill to swallow when the game is rigged in your favor.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:37 AM   #76
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"LOL Don't hate the player, hate the game" is a lot easier pill to swallow when the game is rigged in your favor.
Well, yes.... just as changing the rules of the game is a lot easier to accept if the change favours you.

Perhaps, if the electoral college favoured your side, you would see more sense in the position that the United States is a collection of States and that therefore it is "fair" to decide the President based on an electoral college? Maybe you wouldn't. There are a lot of assumptions about what the role of the President being carried along in the hand luggage of your notion of "fair".

Last edited by shuttlt; 17th September 2020 at 07:43 AM.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:42 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You miss the point, each side wants to rig it in their favor, moving on.
Okay. Of course, given the option of "rigging" an election, any participant is likely to choose a manner which benefits their interests. So much for the "wants" part.

To avoid that, those proposing an election should design a system that avoids "rigging".
What would that look like? How would votes be weighted in a non rigged election?
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:42 AM   #78
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Well, yes.... just as changing the rules of the game is a lot easier to accept if the change favours you.
Again this just denies that "fair" exists as a standard outside of who it advantages.

You and Rocky are both operating from the same insane "If making the system more fair means the Democrats are more likely to win, that's the same thing as a just rigging the system in their favor so it's the same as rigging it the other way" fallacy.

A fair neutral does exist.
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Old 17th September 2020, 07:53 AM   #79
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Pandemic or no, the Electoral College should play football this season! They worked hard and deserve a chance to play!
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Old 17th September 2020, 08:01 AM   #80
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again this just denies that "fair" exists as a standard outside of who it advantages.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I have given you two other notions of fairness outside of who it advantages. 1. Sticking with the agreed rules. 2. A different understanding of the game, that is to say that the Presidency is a compromise between representing the states and the people, hence an electoral college is "fair". You then have your third definition of "fair".

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You and Rocky are both operating from the same insane "If making the system more fair means the Democrats are more likely to win, that's the same thing as a just rigging the system in their favor so it's the same as rigging it the other way" fallacy.
That is certainly not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that it is natural for Republican's to imagine that the advantage that a pure majority vote is popularly believed to give to Democrats might play a significant role in Democrat motivations. In a hypothetical scenario where Trump had narrowly won the popular vote, but lost the college, they doubt, perhaps incorrectly, that there would be much of a fuss about this being illegitimate from Democrats.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A fair neutral does exist.
No it doesn't. If the Presidency is a compromise between representing the states and representing the people then a pure majority decision is unfair. What is fair or not depends on what assumptions you make about the game being played. Bringing a bat onto the field may be fair in baseball, but unfair in football. There is no universal "fair".

Last edited by shuttlt; 17th September 2020 at 08:03 AM.
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