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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 15th January 2020, 08:38 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Not really...see, I assumed that you guys were trying to tie Trumpís ignorance to his dangerous mental illness. Silly me for thinking that and trying to keep to the topic.

Like I said general Trump bashing is óó->

For someone who claims to not like Trump you sure do get all huffy when someone dares to bash him. Maybe try relaxing a bit?
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Old 15th January 2020, 08:39 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You, Random Internet Personality #3456094451. You are not a mental health professional and so ...

....and so....what? Did you have a thought when you began? Because evidently it escaped you by the end of the sentence.
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Old 15th January 2020, 08:42 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It does if your motivation was to tell them something they didn't already know.

It does if your motivation was to get them to change their mind with new information.

It is not the speakers' responsibility to investigate these things before speaking.....

....and maybe you already knew that, but that doesn't negate the fact that I wanted to tell you so.
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Old 15th January 2020, 08:49 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It does if your motivation was to tell them something they didn't already know.

It does if your motivation was to get them to change their mind with new information.

In addition, both of these statements are simply factually incorrect. If I am motivated to tell you something you don't already know, and then it turns out you already knew what I told you, that does not change the fact that I had that motivation (ie, it does not negate the motivation). You could argue that my actions to satisfy the motivation were misplaced, but the motivation itself was still there--It has not been negated.

Again, you have this entirely backwards.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:01 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You don't seem willing to even acknowledge the possibility that ignorance + incompetence can be the result of identifiable mental illness.


Why would I? Itís sufficient for me to observe the incompetence and ignorance.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:05 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
For someone who claims to not like Trump you sure do get all huffy when someone dares to bash him. Maybe try relaxing a bit?


No.

Mental health is not a reason to bash someone. Once again, another demonstration of the damage done by the Yale Group.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:09 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It is not the speakers' responsibility to investigate these things before speaking.....

....and maybe you already knew that, but that doesn't negate the fact that I wanted to tell you so.
I think that only you can be responsible for checking your motivations, and determining whether the thing you're going to do is necessary.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:11 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
In addition, both of these statements are simply factually incorrect. If I am motivated to tell you something you don't already know, and then it turns out you already knew what I told you, that does not change the fact that I had that motivation (ie, it does not negate the motivation). You could argue that my actions to satisfy the motivation were misplaced, but the motivation itself was still there--It has not been negated.

Again, you have this entirely backwards.
But this is inane.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:46 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No.

Mental health is not a reason to bash someone. Once again, another demonstration of the damage done by the Yale Group.

Irrelevant, as mental health is not the reason Trump is being bashed.

And you damn well know that.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:48 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think that only you can be responsible for checking your motivations, and determining whether the thing you're going to do is necessary.

And part of that responsibility is most certainly not ascertaining whether any one of hundreds of millions of people have or have not already heard what you are trying to tell them.

Just go ahead and tell them anyway.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Makes sense to me. If you voted against him on that basis, I wouldn't think it odd or irrational.

So. What did the Yale group tell you, that you hadn't already figured out on your own?
To me, the issue isnít whether or not to vote for him. To me, the issue is what mechanism is in place to deal with a president whose mental faculties are beginning to fail because of senility, Alzheimerís, or a mental disorder.

If President Trump were suffering from narcissistic personality disorder that greatly impaired his ability to serve his country, then the 25th Amendment would be useless if he surrounded himself with enablers and people who were afraid to speak up. Even if his doctor were convinced that the President were a danger to himself and others, and the doctor brought in 8 specialists with Republican leanings who independently drew the same conclusion, there would be no way to remove President Trump from office.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:49 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But this is inane.

Then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what "motivation" means.
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Old 15th January 2020, 09:59 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But this is inane.

Here, let me give you a simple analogy to make this easier for you to understand.

Say someone puts on 250 pair of underwear simultaneously. Their motivation is to set the world record for most underwear worn simultaneously.

Someone comes around and says, "Hey, that can't be your motivation: The record is already 266 pair!" This, however, is irrelevant and incorrect (the part about motivation, not the part about the record): The former person may have been misinformed, but the motivation was still to set a record. Knowledge that comes after the fact doesn't change that motivation.

Similarly, if I am motivated to tell you something you've never heard before, but then it turns out you've already heard what I had to tell you, that does not negate the motivation--The motivation was still there. You can't change that.

Last edited by Cabbage; 15th January 2020 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 15th January 2020, 11:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Irrelevant, as mental health is not the reason Trump is being bashed.



And you damn well know that.


I do indeed. Which makes such bashing irrelevant to this thread.
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Old 15th January 2020, 11:11 PM   #95
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Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness' say psychiatry experts at Yale... Pt 3

Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Here, let me give you a simple analogy to make this easier for you to understand.

Say someone puts on 250 pair of underwear simultaneously. Their motivation is to set the world record for most underwear worn simultaneously.

Someone comes around and says, "Hey, that can't be your motivation: The record is already 266 pair!" This, however, is irrelevant and incorrect (the part about motivation, not the part about the record): The former person may have been misinformed, but the motivation was still to set a record. Knowledge that comes after the fact doesn't change that motivation.

Similarly, if I am motivated to tell you something you've never heard before, but then it turns out you've already heard what I had to tell you, that does not negate the motivation--The motivation was still there. You can't change that.


But who cares what you have to say? The point of this thread is whether or not we should care about what the Yale Group has to say. Your motivations are completely irrelevant.

So yeah, a Bonfire of Inanity.
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Old 15th January 2020, 11:33 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I do indeed. Which makes such bashing irrelevant to this thread.

Then you should take back this comment

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Mental health is not a reason to bash someone.

since you now acknowledge mental health is not the reason Trump is being bashed.
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Old 15th January 2020, 11:38 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But who cares what you have to say? The point of this thread is whether or not we should care about what the Yale Group has to say. Your motivations are completely irrelevant.

So yeah, a Bonfire of Inanity.


.....(sigh)......


Take it up with theprestige--He was the one making claims about motivations/justifications being necessary.

And my motivations were never a subject at all. Are you having trouble following the conversation?

And for someone who dares to ask who cares what I have to say, you sure do have habit of bitching about what I do say. An awful lot, in fact. LOL!
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Old 16th January 2020, 06:51 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Why would I? Itís sufficient for me to observe the incompetence and ignorance.

Nevertheless, it demonstrates you are wrong when you claim his ignorance isn't relevant to the thread.
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Old 16th January 2020, 11:13 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
.....(sigh)......





Take it up with theprestige--He was the one making claims about motivations/justifications being necessary.



And my motivations were never a subject at all. Are you having trouble following the conversation?
No, but you obviously are. Theprestige, was talking about the motivations of the Yale Group and their justifications for speaking out, which are germane. You keep giving analogies about yourself telling people something which is not germane -what you -a random layperson- tell people and why you tell them tells us nothing about the ethics of the Yale Group


Quote:
And for someone who dares to ask who cares what I have to say, you sure do have habit of bitching about what I do say. An awful lot, in fact. LOL!
I donít care, in the context of this thread, what you say about Trump. I do care about the arguments you make in this thread about the Yale Group.
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Old 16th January 2020, 11:22 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Nevertheless, it demonstrates you are wrong when you claim his ignorance isn't relevant to the thread.


His ignorance and any mental illness he might have are completely separate issues. Itís just plain wrong to connect the two. Therefore, pointing out his ignorance is indeed irrelevant to this thread.

Unless of course, you are trying to connect the two, which is completely wrongheaded, unfair to people with mental illness and a major reason why the APA has an ethical rule against the kinds of statements the Yale Group is making.
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:25 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No, but you obviously are. Theprestige, was talking about the motivations of the Yale Group and their justifications for speaking out, which are germane. You keep giving analogies about yourself telling people something which is not germane -what you -a random layperson- tell people and why you tell them tells us nothing about the ethics of the Yale Group

Had you actually read for comprehension you would understand I gave those analogies only to facilitate theprestige's struggle to understand what I was saying to begin with.






Quote:
I donít care, in the context of this thread, what you say about Trump.

BS. Only yesterday you were whining about someone bringing up Trump's ignorance, saying it was irrelevant. Upon being told that it actually was relevant, you simply whined some more.
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Old 16th January 2020, 04:27 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
His ignorance and any mental illness he might have are completely separate issues. Itís just plain wrong to connect the two. Therefore, pointing out his ignorance is indeed irrelevant to this thread.

Unless of course, you are trying to connect the two, which is completely wrongheaded, unfair to people with mental illness and a major reason why the APA has an ethical rule against the kinds of statements the Yale Group is making.

They can be related, as Bob001 has already explained to you. You are not the policeman of the content of this thread.
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Old 16th January 2020, 05:02 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
They can be related, as Bob001 has already explained to you. You are not the policeman of the content of this thread.
Yes I totally want noted Internet personality Bob001 to explain to me the medical relationship between ignorance and mental disorder. Who needs Dr Lee and the Yale Group, when you have... Whatever the **** this is.
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Old 16th January 2020, 05:19 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes I totally want noted Internet personality Bob001 to explain to me the medical relationship between ignorance and mental disorder. Who needs Dr Lee and the Yale Group, when you have... Whatever the **** this is.


Oh, so this thread is only about Trump's mental illness, and as such, only medical doctors are qualified to post in this thread.

How convenient for Trump bootlickers!
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Old 16th January 2020, 05:27 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, so this thread is only about Trump's mental illness, and as such, only medical doctors are qualified to post in this thread. : rolleyes :

How convenient for Trump bootlickers!
Don't appeal to Bob001's authority as a medical doctor, and you won't have to suffer the indignity of seeing your appeal challenged.
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Old 16th January 2020, 06:25 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Don't appeal to Bob001's authority as a medical doctor, and you won't have to suffer the indignity of seeing your appeal challenged.

Just one problem, bro: I never appealed to Bob001's authority as a medical doctor.
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Old 16th January 2020, 06:44 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Just one problem, bro: I never appealed to Bob001's authority as a medical doctor.


You used Bobís explanation as a rebuttal. Why should we accept that explanation? Bob isnít a mental health professional.

On the other hand, actual MHPs have repeatedly warned against stigmatizing the mentally ill, which is what associating ignorance with mental illness is doing. Hell, even Dr. Lee herself has backed away from using ďmental illness;Ē she insists that sheís only assessing his ďdangerousness.Ē* But the fact remains that the core argument of the Yale Group (of which Dr Lee is a founding member) is that Trump has a mental illness and that makes him dangerous.

Such stigmatization is wrong and thus, mental illness should be left out of that argument. If one wants to argue that Trumpís ignorance (of history, of foreign affairs or even just general ignorance) makes him dangerous, that argument does not belong here.


*If one separates dangerousness from mental health, as Dr. Lee claims she has done, then oneís status as a MHP is entirely irrelevant and one shouldnít be using that expertise as a basis from which to argue. And if Dr. Lee isnít talking about his mental health...well, she sure does talk a lot about his mental health. She canít have it both ways.
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Old 16th January 2020, 06:59 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You used Bobís explanation as a rebuttal. Why should we accept that explanation? Bob isnít a mental health professional.

Not everything medically related requires an MD to discuss or understand. And I'm not demanding you accept the explanation, only that you finally shut up about allowing it to exist in this thread--You are not the thread police.
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Old 16th January 2020, 08:03 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
You used Bobís explanation as a rebuttal. Why should we accept that explanation? Bob isnít a mental health professional.
Why should we accept xjx388ís explanations? xjx388 is not a mental health professional.
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Old 17th January 2020, 12:44 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Why should we accept xjx388ís explanations? xjx388 is not a mental health professional.

They arenít my explanations, as the part of my post you snipped makes clear.

OTOH, Bob001 seems to have pulled his explanation out of thin air.
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Old 17th January 2020, 01:16 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
They aren’t my explanations, as the part of my post you snipped makes clear.

OTOH, Bob001 seems to have pulled his explanation out of thin air.

The rest of that post doesn't really make any claims about a link (existence or non-existence) between mental illness and ignorance; it merely says we should avoid speaking of such links to avoid stigmatizing the mentally ill.

I'm more interested in facts, thanks.

And you claim "Bob001 seems to have pulled his explanation out of thin air" but you have yet to specify anything wrong with it.....That's all that really needs to be said about your "contribution".

Last edited by Cabbage; 17th January 2020 at 01:18 AM.
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Old 17th January 2020, 01:49 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
The rest of that post doesn't really make any claims about a link (existence or non-existence) between mental illness and ignorance; it merely says we should avoid speaking of such links to avoid stigmatizing the mentally ill.

I'm more interested in facts, thanks.

And you claim "Bob001 seems to have pulled his explanation out of thin air" but you have yet to specify anything wrong with it.....That's all that really needs to be said about your "contribution".


It's interesting watching this debate, which has increasingly become xjx388 telling everyone else that 'they're not allowed to say that'.

The professional psyches? -- they're not allowed - goldwater
Anyone not a psyche doesn't have the right either, we've now learned. So that covers, er, everyone.
When that doesn't work it's 'Off topic!! Off topic!!

It's very telling
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Old 17th January 2020, 08:41 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
They arenít my explanations, as the part of my post you snipped makes clear.

OTOH, Bob001 seems to have pulled his explanation out of thin air.
You are claiming that you have explained nothing in this thread? I am tempted to agree with that. But actually you have attempted to explain many things, without any qualifications or expertise of your own. Yet you criticize others for not being qualified. That is plain hypocrisy.
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Old 17th January 2020, 08:48 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's interesting watching this debate, which has increasingly become xjx388 telling everyone else that 'they're not allowed to say that'.
Please quote where I've said that someone isn't allowed to say something. The shrinks are ethically barred from speaking out but obviously they are allowed to -they are doing it. Non-professionals are allowed to say whatever they want about mental illness but it's meaningless.

It's like you only hear what you want and not what I actually say.

Quote:
When that doesn't work it's 'Off topic!! Off topic!!

It's very telling
Again, I never used the words Off Topic. I said that discussions of Trump's ignorance are irrelevant to a thread about mental illness. And they quite plainly are. But I'm not attempting to police the thread; I'm pointing out bad arguments.
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Old 17th January 2020, 08:50 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
You are claiming that you have explained nothing in this thread? I am tempted to agree with that. But actually you have attempted to explain many things, without any qualifications or expertise of your own. Yet you criticize others for not being qualified. That is plain hypocrisy.
I have used the relevant citations to back up my positions. The APA, Dr. Frances, various papers, other professional commentary . . . throughout the years of this thread, I have supported every argument I make. Never have I represented myself as an expert. Never have I pulled an argument out of thin air because that's the way I think it is.

Bob001 did just that -pulled something out of the air and presented it as fact. I'd like to see him provide a professional source that says "delusion causes ignorance." I'll wait.
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Old 17th January 2020, 08:58 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Please quote where I've said that someone isn't allowed to say something. The shrinks are ethically barred from speaking out but obviously they are allowed to -they are doing it. Non-professionals are allowed to say whatever they want about mental illness but it's meaningless.

It's like you only hear what you want and not what I actually say.

Again, I never used the words Off Topic.
No, maybe you didn't.

Try this though:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12942998

If you're not happy with that, I'll find more.


Quote:
I said that discussions of Trump's ignorance are irrelevant to a thread about mental illness. And they quite plainly are. But I'm not attempting to police the thread; I'm pointing out bad arguments.
You're doing it again. Sure you don't use the words 'off topic' but it's what you mean.

your whole schtick in the this thread has been seeking to control the conversation to avoid the awkward bits you don't like.


But you carry on, chap.
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Old 17th January 2020, 11:04 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, maybe you didn't.

Try this though:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post12942998

If you're not happy with that, I'll find more.
No need because they will all be along the same lines: Steering people back to the relevant issues of the thread.

Quote:
You're doing it again. Sure you don't use the words 'off topic' but it's what you mean.
I don't mean it in a "I'm going to report your post" way; I mean it in a "make better, more relevant arguements way." You are free to ignore me of course, no skin off my back.

Quote:
your whole schtick in the this thread has been seeking to control the conversation to avoid the awkward bits you don't like.
Ridiculous. What are these "awkward bits" you think I don't like?

I see it completely the opposite: I see many posters here wanting to avoid the topic of the ethics of what the Yale Group has done. Very few posters want to acknowledge the general ignorance of a statement like "Delusions cause ignorance," and how stigmatizing such labels and stereotypes can be to the mentally ill. Almost no one wants to address the dubious methodology by which the Yale Group has remotely diagnosed a person they've never met. Those issues are simply handwaved away with "Dunning-Kruger, Trump bootlicker, it's obvious!, the system is broken, they are professionals and they disagree with the ethics, blah, blah blah."

But I'm the one avoiding the "awkward bits."


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But you carry on, chap.
I shall.
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Old 17th January 2020, 12:17 PM   #118
Bob001
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
.....
Bob001 did just that -pulled something out of the air and presented it as fact. I'd like to see him provide a professional source that says "delusion causes ignorance." I'll wait.

You're just being silly. Nobody says ignorance and mental illness are the same things. But it should be self-evident that delusional thinking -- rejection of reality -- is one explanation for ignorance -- lack of knowledge and deficits in the ability to grasp facts and process information.

Like Dunning-Kruger syndrome:
Quote:
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a type of cognitive bias in which people believe that they are smarter and more capable than they really are. Essentially, low ability people do not possess the skills needed to recognize their own incompetence. The combination of poor self-awareness and low cognitive ability leads them to overestimate their own capabilities.
https://www.verywellmind.com/an-over...effect-4160740

And:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmur.../#5b9f2c315d7c

Of course, there's always this:
Quote:
Among the variants of narcissism, however, malignant narcissists are by far the most damaging. Beyond merely wanting to focus primarily on themselves and be held in overly high regard by virtually everyone in their lives, they tend to have a darker side to their self-absorption. This subset contains the general traits of NPD including the regular egocentricity, but also some antisocial traits and even a sadistic streak in addition to a poor sense of self and lack of empathy. In fact, some experts see little difference between malignant narcissists and psychopaths in that both have a sadistic, antisocial streak, and very little empathy. There is often some paranoia involved with malignant narcissism as well.

Malignant narcissists can be highly manipulative and they don't care who they hurt as long as they get their own way. They see the world in black-and-white terms, including seeing others as either friend or foe. They seek to win at all costs and generally leave a great amount of pain, frustration, and even heartache in their wake. They generally don’t care about the pain they cause others—or may even enjoy it and experience it as empowering—and will do what it takes to prevent themselves from loss, inconvenience, or failing to get what they want in any situation.
https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-...issist-4164528

Of course, if you want to insist that delusional thinking and willful rejection of reality are no different from ordinary lack of education, have at it.

Meanwhile, the latest chilling revelation:
Quote:
Trump by now was in one of his rages. He was so angry that he wasn’t taking many breaths. All morning, he had been coarse and cavalier, but the next several things he bellowed went beyond that description. They stunned nearly everyone in the room, and some vowed that they would never repeat them. Indeed, they have not been reported until now.

“I wouldn’t go to war with you people,” Trump told the assembled brass.

Addressing the room, the commander in chief barked, “You’re a bunch of dopes and babies.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...f6d_story.html

Sleep well.

Last edited by Bob001; 17th January 2020 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 17th January 2020, 12:44 PM   #119
Stacyhs
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 15,326
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You're just being silly. Nobody says ignorance and mental illness are the same things. But it should be self-evident that delusional thinking -- rejection of reality -- is one explanation for ignorance -- lack of knowledge and deficits in the ability to grasp facts and process information.

Like Dunning-Kruger syndrome:

https://www.verywellmind.com/an-over...effect-4160740

And:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markmur.../#5b9f2c315d7c

Of course, there's always this:

https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-...issist-4164528

Of course, if you want to insist that delusional thinking and willful rejection of reality are no different from ordinary lack of education, have at it.

Meanwhile, the latest chilling revelation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...f6d_story.html

Sleep well.
Trump is the poster boy for that malignant narcissism description. So much so that you'd think they had Trump in mind when it was written.

I watched about 30 seconds of a FOX News show this morning (it was all I could stomach). The GOP pundit (don't know his name) was repeated that the impeachment 'hoax' is just the Dems wanting to 'negate' the 2016 election. I'm so sick of that stupid and lazy excuse.
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Old 17th January 2020, 01:43 PM   #120
xjx388
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Posts: 8,592
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You're just being silly. Nobody says ignorance and mental illness are the same things. But it should be self-evident that delusional thinking -- rejection of reality -- is one explanation for ignorance -- lack of knowledge and deficits in the ability to grasp facts and process information.
A person who has an inability to process information and has a delusional view of reality due to mental illness is not ignorant, they are mentally ill. That's the difference. You cannot use ignorance as evidence of a mental illness. A person with intellectual disabilities is not ignorant, their brains simply can't process information correctly. ETA: It's this conflation of ignorance with mental illness that is the problem.

Quote:
There is no such thing as D-K "syndrome." It has nothing to do with mental illness, so I'm not sure why you brought it up (well, I might have some idea). D-K effect is a cognitive bias, not a cognitive dysfunction. And the effect works across the spectrum of intellegence and functioning: A Family Medicine doctor can exhibit D-K when he thinks he knows everything about medicine simply because he has "MD" after his name and a license to practice medicine.

Quote:
I didn't see "ignorance" in that description. I didn't see anything about delusions causing ignorance. I also reject the idea that using examples of Trump's ignorance is a valid method of evaluating whether or not he has a mental illness. So, no support for your "delusions can cause ignorance," idea.

Quote:
Of course, if you want to insist that delusional thinking and willful rejection of reality are no different from ordinary lack of education, have at it.
Not sure how you got that. . . delusional thinking is a result of a dysfunctional brain. Ignorance and willful rejection of reality are not. A person with schizophrenia might have delusions but it would be terribly unfair to call them ignorant as a result.

Quote:
Meanwhile, the latest chilling revelation:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...f6d_story.html

Sleep well.
I will grant that as evidence that Trump is an *******. But Mental illness =/= being an *******.
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Last edited by xjx388; 17th January 2020 at 01:45 PM.
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