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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , Mary Trump , presidential candidates , Trump controversies

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Old 23rd August 2020, 12:44 AM   #361
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Not a great weekend for the Orange One. He had to pretend his brother died and now this.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 02:39 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Not a great weekend for the Orange One. He had to pretend his brother died and now this.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 02:56 AM   #363
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I'm confused, too.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 03:44 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Not a great weekend for the Orange One. He had to pretend his brother died and now this.
You mean he had to pretend he cared? Yeah, but not for long.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 04:30 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Sorry, I meant to say he had to care his brother died and now this.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 10:05 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I posted this in the Trump Presidency thread but thought it might fit here, too.

In secretly recorded tapes by Mary Trump and heard by Michael Kranish of The Atlantic, Trump's older sister, Mary Anne, says that Donald has "no principles" and "you can't trust him".

Apparently there are 15 hours of recorded tapes. These tapes also apparently reveal that Mary Anne is the source of the allegation that a boy named Joe Shapiro took the SAT's for Donald to get into college. She also says, "And what they're doing with kids at the border." She guessed that "He hasn't read my immigration opinions on court cases," and "His God damned tweets and lying. Oh, my God, I'm talking too freely but, you know, the change of stories, the lack of preparation, the lying. Holy ****!"
(Interview of Kranish of CNN)
Story here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit..._medium=social
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Old 23rd August 2020, 10:14 AM   #367
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I had my doubts about the existence of the tapes. Clearly I was wrong! What a nasty woman....
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Old 23rd August 2020, 11:32 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Reading the quotes from the tape....I don't think that should be a sufficient basis for Mary Trump to report the SAT story. Seems pretty weak.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 12:24 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Reading the quotes from the tape....I don't think that should be a sufficient basis for Mary Trump to report the SAT story. Seems pretty weak.
It may sound weak to you but it sounds exactly like something Donald Trump would do. Let's look at the circumstantial evidence that would support the story.

1) Trump was not known for doing well academically.

2) He threatened his schools with lawsuits if they revealed his academic
records. Why?

3) Maryanne said she did his homework for him. Why?

4) We know that Trump does not read.

5) We know that Trump is ignorant of geography, history and other subjects
by statements he has made. Tijuana is in South America? Frederick
Douglas is still alive? He didn't know HE'S the president of the US Virgin
Islands?

6) It is suspected that he has a learning disability and his niece has said
he does.

7) He has misrepresented his attendance at Wharton. He's claimed he
graduated first in his class when he wasn't even close. He's implied he
went to the prestigious post graduate MBA program which he did not.

8) We know he is dishonest, has no principles, cheats, and uses his money to
get what he wants.

All of the above support Maryanne's claim. She had no reason to lie to Mary about it.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 12:30 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Reading the quotes from the tape....I don't think that should be a sufficient basis for Mary Trump to report the SAT story. Seems pretty weak.
What other possibility is there for him getting into Penn State. Is there anything about him that screams to you he's Wharton material?
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Old 23rd August 2020, 12:32 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It may sound weak to you but it sounds exactly like something Donald Trump would do. Let's look at the circumstantial evidence that would support the story.

1) Trump was not known for doing well academically.

2) He threatened his schools with lawsuits if they revealed his academic
records. Why?

3) Maryanne said she did his homework for him. Why?

4) We know that Trump does not read.

5) We know that Trump is ignorant of geography, history and other subjects
by statements he has made. Tijuana is in South America? Frederick
Douglas is still alive? He didn't know HE'S the president of the US Virgin
Islands?

6) It is suspected that he has a learning disability and his niece has said
he does.

7) He has misrepresented his attendance at Wharton. He's claimed he
graduated first in his class when he wasn't even close. He's implied he
went to the prestigious post graduate MBA program which he did not.

8) We know he is dishonest, has no principles, cheats, and uses his money to
get what he wants.

All of the above support Maryanne's claim. She had no reason to lie to Mary about it.
I didn't suggest she lied. I would say at best her statement is hearsay (not the legal term) and that it should have something more substantial to report it.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 12:54 PM   #372
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Point taken. But I do think it's more than likely it happened. I can't see Trump doing well enough on the SAT's to get into college.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 12:57 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Point taken. But I do think it's more than likely it happened. I can't see Trump doing well enough on the SAT's to get into college.
And maybe the sister agrees with you, did you consider that? And her recount is shaped by that and adds more confidence than is consistent with how she received the information?
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Old 23rd August 2020, 01:01 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And maybe the sister agrees with you, did you consider that? And her recount is shaped by that and adds more confidence than is consistent with how she received the information?
What do you mean by "how she received the information"?
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Old 23rd August 2020, 01:02 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What do you mean by "how she received the information"?
She did not observe the cheating on the test? Then sh3 would have received the information from someone else at some point after the event.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 01:06 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
She did not observe the cheating on the test? Then sh3 would have received the information from someone else at some point after the event.
I would say that would likely have been Donald. Who else would have told her? She is nine years older than Donald so did not have the same circle of friends, etc.

ETA: He does enjoy bragging about how smart he is cheating 'the system'. But I do wish Mary had asked her aunt for more details.

ETA: I think there has to be more on the tapes than we've heard about this because the name given was Joe Shapiro and that part is not given on the tapes we've heard.

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Old 23rd August 2020, 01:09 PM   #377
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Oh, lordy, I think this might be the second time, but I kind of agree with Bob on this one. It's a story that her editors might have wanted to vet a little more closely.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 01:19 PM   #378
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I think the crucial question that should have been asked was how did Maryanne know that this "Joe Shapiro" took the SAT's for Donald?

The sad part is that it is very much within the realm of probability that it is true. If someone made this claim about Obama, it would be laughed at.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 01:54 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Such speculation is something to resolve before releasing the book.
Why? It hurts Trump so it's okay. It only has to be right until November 3rd.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 02:55 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Why? It hurts Trump so it's okay. It only has to be right until November 3rd.
I wonder if it really hurts Trump.

The big revelation (so far) is Maryanne saying that Trump has no principles. Yeah? Tell me something we don't know.

What I mean is that it's about his character, which a blind man can see is deeply flawed, so anyone who isn't already convinced probably won't be convinced by this, either. Meanwhile, the unsavory way in which the tapes were made might generate some sympathy.

Among people who will or might vote for Trump, there are a few groups. You have his hard core supporters who never believe anything bad about him, no matter how much evidence is available. Those are pretty much lost. Then there are the Republicans who want low taxes, and don't care about anything else. Those people already know he's a lying snake in the grass, but he does what they want policy-wise, so who cares? So, the genuinely undecided ones might be swayed. Some will see it as more evidence that Trump is pond scum, so that could sway a few votes. Others will see it as more evidence that the media is out to get Trump, so much so that they are willing to put family gossip on the front page. That helps him.

Which is the bigger effect? Honestly, I don't know. I hope it hurts him.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 09:13 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Oh, lordy, I think this might be the second time, but I kind of agree with Bob on this one. It's a story that her editors might have wanted to vet a little more closely.
You don't think a sister might be aware of things her brother was doing like cheating on the SAT? I knew what my brothers were up to. Nothing drastic mind you, but if my brother had hired someone to take the SATs for him, I probably would have known.
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Old 23rd August 2020, 10:05 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't think a sister might be aware of things her brother was doing like cheating on the SAT? I knew what my brothers were up to. Nothing drastic mind you, but if my brother had hired someone to take the SATs for him, I probably would have known.

More than that, she has said that she routinely did his homework for him and helped him get into college.
Quote:
Barry told how she tried to help her brother get into college. He was a brat, Barry said, explaining that I did his homework for him and I drove him around New York City to try to get him into college.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...ge%2Fstory-ans

If he cheated on his SATs, she would be in a position to know.
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Old 24th August 2020, 12:12 AM   #383
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He cheats at golf, he cheated on all his wives, he cheated on his taxes according to Cohen, why not on his SAT's? As Maryanne said, "He has no principles."
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Old 24th August 2020, 07:03 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I wonder if it really hurts Trump.

The big revelation (so far) is Maryanne saying that Trump has no principles. Yeah? Tell me something we don't know.

What I mean is that it's about his character, which a blind man can see is deeply flawed, so anyone who isn't already convinced probably won't be convinced by this, either. Meanwhile, the unsavory way in which the tapes were made might generate some sympathy.

Among people who will or might vote for Trump, there are a few groups. You have his hard core supporters who never believe anything bad about him, no matter how much evidence is available. Those are pretty much lost. Then there are the Republicans who want low taxes, and don't care about anything else. Those people already know he's a lying snake in the grass, but he does what they want policy-wise, so who cares? So, the genuinely undecided ones might be swayed. Some will see it as more evidence that Trump is pond scum, so that could sway a few votes. Others will see it as more evidence that the media is out to get Trump, so much so that they are willing to put family gossip on the front page. That helps him.

Which is the bigger effect? Honestly, I don't know. I hope it hurts him.
The tapes help the American side in this election stay on message. We already know this but it reinforces the theme and keeps it at the top of people's minds.
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Old 24th August 2020, 07:38 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The tapes help the American side in this election stay on message. We already know this but it reinforces the theme and keeps it at the top of people's minds.
I do wonder if it would have been better had the tapes been released closer to the election. (Perhaps done strategically to counter any Republican attacks in October.) As it stands, whatever benefit it has might vanish by election time.



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Old 24th August 2020, 09:36 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
She makes no pretense of being a journalist. She is transparently attempting to hurt her family [uncle and grandfather].
Is there anyone else she's trying to hurt? I suppose her cousins, Trump's kids.
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Old 24th August 2020, 10:30 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
She makes no pretense of being a journalist. She is transparently attempting to hurt her family.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Is there anyone else she's trying to hurt? I suppose her cousins, Trump's kids.
I don't think she's trying to 'hurt' anyone. If that were her motive, she would have done this a long time ago. I think she truly is afraid that her uncle is going to be re-elected and felt she had to speak out. This isn't vindictiveness; it's fear.
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Old 24th August 2020, 10:55 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think you are wrong, but I will stop arguing it. What about the obligation of the publisher?
It is not the obligation of the publisher to vet every single claim by the author.

ETA: However:

Quote:
The main goal, especially when reporting on individuals who aren’t public figures (since the law allows more leeway when discussing public figures), is to be able to demonstrate the truth of what’s stated or at least show reasonable grounds for believing the statements are true.
Mary had the audio recordings of her Donald's sister telling her this. That is 'reasonable grounds'.

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Old 24th August 2020, 11:40 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It is not the obligation of the publisher to vet every single claim by the author....
Bob needs to scroll through the non-fiction book section at any book seller.

OMG the lies people spout in their 'non-fiction' books, like Ann Coulter's rants about "liberals", John Fund's bogus claims about voter fraud, and how about "The Art of the Deal"? That has to be full of bull ****.
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Old 24th August 2020, 11:55 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't think she's trying to 'hurt' anyone. If that were her motive, she would have done this a long time ago. I think she truly is afraid that her uncle is going to be re-elected and felt she had to speak out. This isn't vindictiveness; it's fear.
These are not mutually exclusive motivations.
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Old 24th August 2020, 11:56 AM   #391
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Was Ayn Rand a journalist? She wrote books too!
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Old 24th August 2020, 12:47 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The fact that you don't want to accept that it was unreasonable grounds is not my problem, either.

Where Maryanne heard it matters. Without knowing that, it is unreasonable to believe it. It is (non legal) hearsay.
Believe what you want to believe. I really don't give a rat's patootie. Like I said, take it up with Mary and her publisher.

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Old 24th August 2020, 12:53 PM   #393
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I get puzzled sometimes. Mary has a recording of MaryAnne saying that Donald has no principles. This fact has been mentioned in the press.


Who's a journalist and why should I care?
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Old 24th August 2020, 03:58 PM   #394
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Anyway, underhanded or not, the interesting part is the recording, though just confirming what is pretty obvious anyway. The US society is broken and sick as this obviously poisonous person still has above 40% approval rating.
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Old 24th August 2020, 04:42 PM   #395
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This is too long but I wrote it and might as well post it. Genre: "media criticism":

I think there is a difference between a journalist and a memoirist, but not because of any dictionary or other definitions that attempt to place all nonfiction writing in one genre or the other. It's not that clear-cut. I'm not even sure what this discussion is about ... is it the responsibility of Mary to source her claims about Trump's alleged SAT cheating and apply contemporary "journalistic" standards to the claim? And that boils down to emphasis. If I were reporting it, I might protect the source, as that is a fairly common practice, yet the trend when I was a working journalist was that anonymity needed serious justification and was not a valid way to simply insert a "zinger" into copy that otherwise wouldn't see print.

To really vet the claim, you'd have to try to contact an awful lot of "Joe Schapiros" and document the effort. For one thing, you need a certain diligence to make sure that "Joe Schapiros" as a group are not being unfairly presented as potential cheats. There would be a methodology: Find all such "Joe Schapiros" within Trump's realistic orbit, check with each and probably apply some formula to evaluate their credibility. In addition, "reach out" (hate that construct) to Trump himself and ask if it's true.

I have seen "journalists" try to get away with the technique of quoting someone anonymously just because they like the idea of getting a claim into the record somewhere. Sometimes they have a job at a newspaper or magazine; sometimes they don't. Actually CNN does this quite a bit ... there would be stories that played it 95 percent straight, but then would get a real humdinger of a quote - often from several anonymous sources - and use that as the basis for a headline or a lede. And I don't even blame CNN or the NYT for doing this. But they overused it. I saw so many "White House in chaos" articles or editorials that I began dismissing most of what they said. NOT because I didn't believe it, but because I was hyperaware of my own desire to believe it, and didn't want confirmation bias to give me unrealistic hope that Trump was losing support. However, that's an awfully picky, technical way to go about consuming news media, and is probably fairly rare, as not everyone has spent decades in a business where they saw news being constructed, hour by hour, day by day.

Usually nonfiction can be broadly labeled "news," "commentary" or "memoir," but there are dozens of other possibilities - "history," "literature," "propaganda," "polemic," "rhetoric," "crowd-sourcing," "fact-checking," "travelogue," "color," "play-by-play" and on and on. But really there is a ton of overlap and hybridization. It's possible to take a journalistic approach to a memoir, for example. I think most writers want to be read and believed, and whether Trump cheated on his SATs is really IMO kind of a marginal claim. If I were editing a memoir that contained the claim, there's a good chance I would have queried it and suggested either supporting it or eliding it, depending on how it affected the readability and credibility of a manuscript.
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Old 24th August 2020, 04:57 PM   #396
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
This is too long but I wrote it and might as well post it. Genre: "media criticism":

I think there is a difference between a journalist and a memoirist, but not because of any dictionary or other definitions that attempt to place all nonfiction writing in one genre or the other. It's not that clear-cut. I'm not even sure what this discussion is about ... is it the responsibility of Mary to source her claims about Trump's alleged SAT cheating and apply contemporary "journalistic" standards to the claim? And that boils down to emphasis. If I were reporting it, I might protect the source, as that is a fairly common practice, yet the trend when I was a working journalist was that anonymity needed serious justification and was not a valid way to simply insert a "zinger" into copy that otherwise wouldn't see print.

To really vet the claim, you'd have to try to contact an awful lot of "Joe Schapiros" and document the effort. For one thing, you need a certain diligence to make sure that "Joe Schapiros" as a group are not being unfairly presented as potential cheats. There would be a methodology: Find all such "Joe Schapiros" within Trump's realistic orbit, check with each and probably apply some formula to evaluate their credibility. In addition, "reach out" (hate that construct) to Trump himself and ask if it's true.

I have seen "journalists" try to get away with the technique of quoting someone anonymously just because they like the idea of getting a claim into the record somewhere. Sometimes they have a job at a newspaper or magazine; sometimes they don't. Actually CNN does this quite a bit ... there would be stories that played it 95 percent straight, but then would get a real humdinger of a quote - often from several anonymous sources - and use that as the basis for a headline or a lede. And I don't even blame CNN or the NYT for doing this. But they overused it. I saw so many "White House in chaos" articles or editorials that I began dismissing most of what they said. NOT because I didn't believe it, but because I was hyperaware of my own desire to believe it, and didn't want confirmation bias to give me unrealistic hope that Trump was losing support. However, that's an awfully picky, technical way to go about consuming news media, and is probably fairly rare, as not everyone has spent decades in a business where they saw news being constructed, hour by hour, day by day.

Usually nonfiction can be broadly labeled "news," "commentary" or "memoir," but there are dozens of other possibilities - "history," "literature," "propaganda," "polemic," "rhetoric," "crowd-sourcing," "fact-checking," "travelogue," "color," "play-by-play" and on and on. But really there is a ton of overlap and hybridization. It's possible to take a journalistic approach to a memoir, for example. I think most writers want to be read and believed, and whether Trump cheated on his SATs is really IMO kind of a marginal claim. If I were editing a memoir that contained the claim, there's a good chance I would have queried it and suggested either supporting it or eliding it, depending on how it affected the readability and credibility of a manuscript.
Here is the alleged comment

Quote:
According to the Post, the conversation went like this, Barry said to Mary: "He went to Fordham for one year [actually two years] and then he got into University of Pennsylvania because he had somebody take the exams." "No way!" Mary responded. "He had somebody take his entrance exams?"

Barry then replied, "SATs or whatever. . . . That's what I believe," before saying, "I even remember the name." That person was Joe Shapiro," Barry said.

I think it is irresponsible to report that as a fact. It just doesn't have many details that impart confidence it is true.
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Old 24th August 2020, 05:00 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by llwyd View Post
Anyway, underhanded or not, the interesting part is the recording, though just confirming what is pretty obvious anyway. The US society is broken and sick as this obviously poisonous person still has above 40% approval rating.
That's what has really been getting me down to an increasing degree of late. No matter what clear and obvious evidence is before the eyes, so many Americans have gone insane with tribalism. I'm really starting to think the core base of cultists would un-see Trump shoot someone were he to do so at one of his rallies.
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Old 24th August 2020, 05:42 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
This is too long but I wrote it and might as well post it. Genre: "media criticism":

I think there is a difference between a journalist and a memoirist, but not because of any dictionary or other definitions that attempt to place all nonfiction writing in one genre or the other. It's not that clear-cut. I'm not even sure what this discussion is about ... is it the responsibility of Mary to source her claims about Trump's alleged SAT cheating and apply contemporary "journalistic" standards to the claim? And that boils down to emphasis. If I were reporting it, I might protect the source, as that is a fairly common practice, yet the trend when I was a working journalist was that anonymity needed serious justification and was not a valid way to simply insert a "zinger" into copy that otherwise wouldn't see print.

To really vet the claim, you'd have to try to contact an awful lot of "Joe Schapiros" and document the effort. For one thing, you need a certain diligence to make sure that "Joe Schapiros" as a group are not being unfairly presented as potential cheats. There would be a methodology: Find all such "Joe Schapiros" within Trump's realistic orbit, check with each and probably apply some formula to evaluate their credibility. In addition, "reach out" (hate that construct) to Trump himself and ask if it's true.

I have seen "journalists" try to get away with the technique of quoting someone anonymously just because they like the idea of getting a claim into the record somewhere. Sometimes they have a job at a newspaper or magazine; sometimes they don't. Actually CNN does this quite a bit ... there would be stories that played it 95 percent straight, but then would get a real humdinger of a quote - often from several anonymous sources - and use that as the basis for a headline or a lede. And I don't even blame CNN or the NYT for doing this. But they overused it. I saw so many "White House in chaos" articles or editorials that I began dismissing most of what they said. NOT because I didn't believe it, but because I was hyperaware of my own desire to believe it, and didn't want confirmation bias to give me unrealistic hope that Trump was losing support. However, that's an awfully picky, technical way to go about consuming news media, and is probably fairly rare, as not everyone has spent decades in a business where they saw news being constructed, hour by hour, day by day.

Usually nonfiction can be broadly labeled "news," "commentary" or "memoir," but there are dozens of other possibilities - "history," "literature," "propaganda," "polemic," "rhetoric," "crowd-sourcing," "fact-checking," "travelogue," "color," "play-by-play" and on and on. But really there is a ton of overlap and hybridization. It's possible to take a journalistic approach to a memoir, for example. I think most writers want to be read and believed, and whether Trump cheated on his SATs is really IMO kind of a marginal claim. If I were editing a memoir that contained the claim, there's a good chance I would have queried it and suggested either supporting it or eliding it, depending on how it affected the readability and credibility of a manuscript.
Thank you for your input, Minoosh. I too felt that they probably should have researched it a little better but then I'm not really sure if Joe Shapiro is even mentioned in the book.
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Old 24th August 2020, 05:45 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Here is the alleged comment

According to the Post, the conversation went like this, Barry said to Mary: "He went to Fordham for one year [actually two years] and then he got into University of Pennsylvania because he had somebody take the exams." "No way!" Mary responded. "He had somebody take his entrance exams?"

Barry then replied, "SATs or whatever. . . . That's what I believe," before saying, "I even remember the name." That person was Joe Shapiro," Barry said.



I think it is irresponsible to report that as a fact. It just doesn't have many details that impart confidence it is true.
Claiming (implying?) that Trump cheated is in a way less problematic than tossing out the name "Joe Schapiro."

There are numerous red flags about the statement ... who corrected the "one year" at Fordham to "two years"? "SATS or whatever" emphasizes that he's not sure of the exact entrance exam. The fact that this is what Barry allegedly told Mary as reported in the Post - too many layers. But mostly ... that was more than 50 years ago. I've had my memory proven faulty too many times to try to reproduce a conversation from decades ago. I'll be sure a certain book ends with a well-remembered line ... only to reread the book and realize I'd remembered wrong. As Barry himself seems to hint ... "That's what I believe."

Even so, journalistically you could probably claim to cover your bases just by asking Trump if it's true and recording his response or non-response. But the "Joe Schapiro" part? There really are guys named Joe Schapiro, and you've just accused one of them of serious fraud. And what if it was really "John Schapira," or some other plausible deviation?

Those things stuck in memory that you are sure are true ... are often inaccurate. Even if it's true in broad outline, you can undermine your own credibility by getting some detail wrong.
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Old 24th August 2020, 05:49 PM   #400
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Thank you for your input, Minoosh. I too felt that they probably should have researched it a little better but then I'm not really sure if Joe Shapiro is even mentioned in the book.
I had heard that name mentioned before, at about the time the book came out. I'm not sure it was in the book, but it was being tossed around.
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