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Old 12th August 2020, 12:50 PM   #81
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Is it not the case that 1 in 5 ballots in new york were rejected?
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...imary-n1236143

Surely that either means widespread fraud or widespread disenfranchisement?

Maybe the issues can be bottomed out before November?
Obviously you did not read your own source. Neither fraud nor disenfranchisement was involved.
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Old 12th August 2020, 12:57 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, I'm sure that the sole reason.
Don't be such a heel.
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Old 12th August 2020, 01:41 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Don't be such a heel.
Got you on your toes, don't I?
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Old 12th August 2020, 06:22 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Got you on your toes, don't I?
Stick to the pointe!
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Old 12th August 2020, 06:48 PM   #85
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I'm a total idiot. I had a mail-in ballot for the primary and did a precursory look at it a month or so ago when I got it. Somehow it got buried in my other papers and I just found it again today, a day after the election. Ooooops. Fortunately my choice won.
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Old 12th August 2020, 07:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Obviously you did not read your own source. Neither fraud nor disenfranchisement was involved.
And you are surprised about that?


ETA: some clarification
NYC - 403,000 ballots were returned to election officials, 84,000 rejected (21%)
LA - 1,159,670 ballots were returned to election officials, 17,743 rejected (1.53%)

This clearly indicates a problem with the NYC ballot processing
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Old 12th August 2020, 07:12 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And you are surprised about that?
Not at all.
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Old 13th August 2020, 08:41 AM   #88
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I just sent an email to my county elections office in TN requesting an absentee ballot. Had to be done no earlier than 90 days before the election in question.

I was surprised by the following, given that lots of people are talking about hand delivering ballots to avoid the mail:

Can I hand deliver my ballot to the election office?

No. You must return your ballot by mail (USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc.).
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Old 13th August 2020, 09:22 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Obviously you did not read your own source. Neither fraud nor disenfranchisement was involved.
Certainly I did. Either those were legitimate voters who were denied their voice, or there was a huge amount of fraudulent votes. If anything remotely like that happens in the general people will lose their minds.
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Old 13th August 2020, 09:33 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And you are surprised about that?


ETA: some clarification
NYC - 403,000 ballots were returned to election officials, 84,000 rejected (21%)
LA - 1,159,670 ballots were returned to election officials, 17,743 rejected (1.53%)

This clearly indicates a problem with the NYC ballot processing
Doubtless. I'm certainly not arguing that it isn't in principle possible to implement large scale mail in voting, or that lots of places don't get it right. Given what happened in New York though, it seems like it isn't a trivial thing to get right.

If the general comes around and some states are rejecting twice the rate of others it's going to feed the conspiracy theories what ever the result.
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Old 13th August 2020, 01:00 PM   #91
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Neither "republic" nor "democracy" are adequate to describe the US government or pretty much any other government.

democratic republic, constitutional republic, liberal democracy, constitutional democracy, liberal democratic constitutional republic?

At the writing of the constitution, a republic of generally thought to be a form of mixed government with elements of democracy, monarchy, and aristocracy. With the advent of the all the various autocratic governments that call themselves republics, its really become a fairly meaningless term.

That being said, one of the definitions of republic is "a government that is not a monarchy" so, crowned republic is pretty silly. Constitutional monarchy or democratic monarchy are better terms for that sort of thing.
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Old 13th August 2020, 01:27 PM   #92
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Should be noted that the Supreme Court today ruled against the RNC's request to force each absentee ballot to be signed by 2 other people or a notary public.
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Old 13th August 2020, 01:40 PM   #93
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Meanwhile, under everyone's noses for no good reason other than the real voter fraud: Yahoo News: The USPS is shutting down mail-sorting machines crucial for processing absentee ballots as the 2020 election looms
Quote:
United States Postal Service workers say mail-sorting machines are being taken apart and removed from distribution facilities across the US, raising concerns about their ability to handle a surge in mail-in ballots for the general election in November.

At least 19 mail-sorting machines, which can process up to 35,000 pieces of mail per hour, have been removed without any explanation, postal workers told Motherboard. And an internal letter published by the USPS in June outlines a plan to remove hundreds of mail sorting machines from operation this year.

It's the latest in a series of sweeping changes that Postmaster General Louis DeJoy, a major donor to President Donald Trump, has made to the agency since taking office earlier this summer. Postal workers and elected officials have said the changes dismantle the US Postal Service and could have devastating effects on the election, when many people are expected to vote by mail because of the coronavirus pandemic.
This is the same guy with blatant conflicts of interest.
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Old 13th August 2020, 01:43 PM   #94
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It's been a long time since I took any civics classes, and I don't much trust what I was told back then anyway, but my recollection is that at some point a "republic" described a government which is layered to the point that democracy is not direct all the way up. By necessity any government in which policy at the national level is decided by representatives, rather than by plebiscite, would be a republic even if the election of the representatives was entirely democratic.

Of course, in a world where there exists a Democratic Republic of North Korea and a Democratic Republic of the Congo, it's not what you call it that really counts.
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Old 13th August 2020, 02:44 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Obviously you did not read your own source. Neither fraud nor disenfranchisement was involved.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Certainly I did. Either those were legitimate voters who were denied their voice, or there was a huge amount of fraudulent votes. If anything remotely like that happens in the general people will lose their minds.
Then you did not comprehend what you read or you deliberately choose to misrepresent what it said because the article did not mention fraud or disenfranchisement as causes for the rejection of the ballots. This is what the article said:

Quote:
The U.S. Postal Service, unused to the deluge of prepaid mailers, reportedly left postmarks off ballots, leaving thousands of them to be rejected because it was unclear they were sent on time.
Now, unless you are claiming the US Postal Service was engaging in fraud and disenfranchisement, you have no grounds to claim either.

The article also said this:

Quote:
Voting rights advocates sued in July to demand reform to the state's absentee ballot system, particularly calling for a process for voters who make small errors on their ballots to be given a chance to fix them. The litigation is ongoing, but the state Legislature took the issue up this summer and passed a bill to immediately create a cure process that would give voters a week to fix small errors on their ballots, like a missing signature.
Ballots rejected due to voter origin errors is also not fraud or disenfranchisement. Your claim is utter nonsense.
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Old 13th August 2020, 02:48 PM   #96
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Trump just claimed that Democrats don't want schools to open because schools are used as polling places. Ballots mailed out would be grabbed by people and used to fraudulently vote. The man is looney tunes.
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Old 13th August 2020, 02:50 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump just claimed that Democrats don't want schools to open because schools are used as polling places. Ballots mailed out would be grabbed by people and used to fraudulently vote. The man is looney tunes.
What makes the moron think that whether the schools are open or not, their facilities cannot still be used as a polling place?

***** moron.
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Old 13th August 2020, 02:57 PM   #98
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He's now claiming that Russia, China, Iran, and/or N. Korea could print up ballots and forge or take them and manipulate the election. Um....no.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 13th August 2020 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 13th August 2020, 02:59 PM   #99
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Now he's saying that he 'has no idea' if Harris is qualified to be VP or P because she was an anchor baby. Sheeze

Last edited by Stacyhs; 13th August 2020 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:16 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now he's saying that he 'has no idea' if Harris is qualified to be VP or P because she was an anchor baby. Sheeze
The man is an idiot. She was born in the United States. There are no other Constitutional requirements....well other than being 35 years of age or older.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:26 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The man is an idiot. She was born in the United States. There are no other Constitutional requirements....well other than being 35 years of age or older.
Well, of course, he's an idiot. He also knows damn good and well she was born in this country. He's playing his usual "I don't know, I'll look into it" game so he can sow the seeds of doubt with his racist, anti-immigrant supporters. It's the same crap he pulled with Obama. He knew Obama was born in Hawaii.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:32 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Stick to the pointe!
Bone spur?
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:32 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Well, of course, he's an idiot. He also knows damn good and well she was born in this country. He's playing his usual "I don't know, I'll look into it" game so he can sow the seeds of doubt with his racist, anti-immigrant supporters. It's the same crap he pulled with Obama. He knew Obama was born in Hawaii.
If I was Kamala Harris I would give a small speech about this. Well I would mock the hell out of Trump. Such as "no wonder Trump has had such a problem upholding his oath to preserve protect and defend the Constitution", the idiot either hasn't read it or he incapable of comprehending it.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:33 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Meanwhile, under everyone's noses for no good reason other than the real voter fraud: Yahoo News: The USPS is shutting down mail-sorting machines crucial for processing absentee ballots as the 2020 election loomsThis is the same guy with blatant conflicts of interest.
See? We were being dramatic about Trump stealing the election! That was the real crime here.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:35 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
If I was Kamala Harris I would give a small speech about this. Well I would mock the hell out of Trump. Such as "no wonder Trump has had such a problem upholding his oath to preserve protect and defend the Constitution", the idiot either hasn't read it or he incapable of comprehending it.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if she did. And I have a feeling she could really get to him. After all, being mocked by a black man was bad, but by a black woman? He'd have a fit.
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Old 13th August 2020, 03:53 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Doubtless. I'm certainly not arguing that it isn't in principle possible to implement large scale mail in voting, or that lots of places don't get it right. Given what happened in New York though, it seems like it isn't a trivial thing to get right.
And yet other countries have not trouble whatsoever implementing mail-in voting.

But " 'Merica is special" I guess
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:03 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Doubtless. I'm certainly not arguing that it isn't in principle possible to implement large scale mail in voting, or that lots of places don't get it right. Given what happened in New York though, it seems like it isn't a trivial thing to get right.

If the general comes around and some states are rejecting twice the rate of others it's going to feed the conspiracy theories what ever the result.
You keep harping on NY yet 5 states do all voting by mail and have for years with very little to no problems.

Trump, instead of supporting it and encouraging states to set up systems earlier, lies about how dangerous it is, accuses the Dems of trying to rig the election, claims Russia, China, N. Korea, and Iran could forge ballots, etc, and hinders the Post Office all in an effort to help himself win the election. And his supporters help him spread the misinformation and lies on the internet.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:04 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And yet other countries have not trouble whatsoever implementing mail-in voting.

But " 'Merica is special" I guess
There is implementing it, and there is implementing it in a few months on the scale being proposed here. It's the timescale that is the concern. We won't know if there are flaws in the system until election night.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:05 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I wouldn't be at all surprised if she did. And I have a feeling she could really get to him. After all, being mocked by a black man was bad, but by a black woman? He'd have a fit.
A fit? He might have an embolism, if we're lucky.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:08 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You keep harping on NY yet 5 states do all voting by mail and have for years with very little to no problems.
Sure. So in principle it can be done. I don't disagree. Those 5 states doing it by mail for years didn't stop New York screwing it up.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump, instead of supporting it and encouraging states to set up systems earlier, lies about how dangerous it is, accuses the Dems of trying to rig the election, claims Russia, China, N. Korea, and Iran could forge ballots, etc, and hinders the Post Office all in an effort to help himself win the election. And his supporters help him spread the misinformation and lies on the internet.
Aren't you arguing that a postal vote is secure, resistant to fraud and easily implemented? In that case, I'm sure it will be fine.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:17 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now, unless you are claiming the US Postal Service was engaging in fraud and disenfranchisement, you have no grounds to claim either.
By the sound of it you are agreeing that 20% of the votes in New York were cast by eligible voters in New York whose votes ended up not counting due to the election process. Hopefully we both agree that that is somewhat unfortunate, and would be still more unfortunate if anything remotely like that happened at the general. I kind of doubt that if Trump wins and 20% of the vote in some key state gets thrown into the trash you will be quibbling like this.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:22 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He's now claiming that Russia, China, Iran, and/or N. Korea could print up ballots and forge or take them and manipulate the election. Um....no.
Aaaand of course that's been debunked numerous times.


He's desperate.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:28 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ballots rejected due to voter origin errors is also not fraud or disenfranchisement. Your claim is utter nonsense.
Yet demanding voter id counts as disenfranchising people. I bet if it turns out that some democrat favouring demographic is disproportionately getting their votes discarded in November it will suddenly become disenfranchisement again.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:36 PM   #114
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And now they’re removing post boxes from the streets of Portland.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:37 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
If I was Kamala Harris I would give a small speech about this. Well I would mock the hell out of Trump. Such as "no wonder Trump has had such a problem upholding his oath to preserve protect and defend the Constitution", the idiot either hasn't read it or he incapable of comprehending it.
I'm hoping she "goes there", all out. Biden is maybe too old-school and prominent to do and say what she will. The message will get out but she being the VP pick it won't have that much of a detrimental effect to their campaign.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:54 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm hoping she "goes there", all out. Biden is maybe too old-school and prominent to do and say what she will. The message will get out but she being the VP pick it won't have that much of a detrimental effect to their campaign.
Exactly. And that is the usual role of the VP candidate.
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Old 13th August 2020, 04:59 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
You keep harping on NY yet 5 states do all voting by mail and have for years with very little to no problems.
Sure. So in principle it can be done. I don't disagree. Those 5 states doing it by mail for years didn't stop New York screwing it up.
It wasn't NY that screwed it up. It was the US Post Office. As described in the article. As I quoted. As you said you read.


Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
Trump, instead of supporting it and encouraging states to set up systems earlier, lies about how dangerous it is, accuses the Dems of trying to rig the election, claims Russia, China, N. Korea, and Iran could forge ballots, etc, and hinders the Post Office all in an effort to help himself win the election. And his supporters help him spread the misinformation and lies on the internet.
Aren't you arguing that a postal vote is secure, resistant to fraud and easily implemented? In that case, I'm sure it will be fine.
Please stop trying to misdirect from Trump's lies.

Studies, including those done by conservative foundations, have not found mail in voting to be subject to fraud.

Do you concede that your initial claim that the ballot rejection in NY was due to fraud and/or ballot disenfranchisement is false?
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:15 PM   #118
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
By the sound of it you are agreeing that 20% of the votes in New York were cast by eligible voters in New York whose votes ended up not counting due to the election process. Hopefully we both agree that that is somewhat unfortunate, and would be still more unfortunate if anything remotely like that happened at the general. I kind of doubt that if Trump wins and 20% of the vote in some key state gets thrown into the trash you will be quibbling like this.
Perhaps you should go read the article again. I'm getting rather tired of explaining things to you that are clearly spelled out in it. But here goes...again:

Quote:
For comparison, Los Angeles County processed nearly four times as many ballots but rejected only 17,743 ballots, according to state data provided to NBC News. Their mail-in ballot rejection rate was 1.53 percent.
Why? Because CA has a system in place. Their postal system was set up to handle it. NY's was not. If Trump had not started, and was not still pursuing, his campaign to hinder the Postal Service from preparing for mail in voting, states could be prepared for it. He is doing everything in his power to create the very mess he claims will happen in order to cast doubt on the election if he loses.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:17 PM   #119
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It wasn't NY that screwed it up. It was the US Post Office. As described in the article. As I quoted. As you said you read.
I'm not sure that was wholly true. The article said:

Quote:
They show some very real problems with New York laws. ... It also shows the fact that New Yorkers aren’t used to voting by mail.
Back in 2014 14% of the votes were rejected, so this doesn't seem to be a Trump thing. It may be that the surge in mail in voting has made the situation worse, but high numbers of votes being discarded looks to be a regular thing there.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Please stop trying to misdirect from Trump's lies.

Studies, including those done by conservative foundations, have not found mail in voting to be subject to fraud.

Do you concede that your initial claim that the ballot rejection in NY was due to fraud and/or ballot disenfranchisement is false?
No I don't. If in 2014 there were 14% of the votes getting rejected and in 2020 there were 20% then either it is the case that there are a lot of votes being cast by people who are ineligible to vote, or lots of people who are eligible to vote and want to vote are not having their votes counted. If demanding voter id counts as disenfranchisement, then a voting system that >10% of the electorate fail to navigate successfully is also disenfranchisement. It is too late to fix any of this now in anything other than a mad panic.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:19 PM   #120
Stacyhs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ballots rejected due to voter origin errors is also not fraud or disenfranchisement. Your claim is utter nonsense.
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yet demanding voter id counts as disenfranchising people. I bet if it turns out that some democrat favouring demographic is disproportionately getting their votes discarded in November it will suddenly become disenfranchisement again.
When you can't get the ball over the goal, just move the entire goalpost and hope no one notices, heh? I noticed.
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