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Old 13th August 2020, 05:21 PM   #121
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I just sent an email to my county elections office in TN requesting an absentee ballot. Had to be done no earlier than 90 days before the election in question.

I was surprised by the following, given that lots of people are talking about hand delivering ballots to avoid the mail:

Can I hand deliver my ballot to the election office?

No. You must return your ballot by mail (USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc.).
Wow! You can hand deliver them in Washington. We have Secure Ballot boxes in front of many public buildings.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not sure that was wholly true. The article said:


Back in 2014 14% of the votes were rejected, so this doesn't seem to be a Trump thing. It may be that the surge in mail in voting has made the situation worse, but high numbers of votes being discarded looks to be a regular thing there.


No I don't. If in 2014 there were 14% of the votes getting rejected and in 2020 there were 20% then either it is the case that there are a lot of votes being cast by people who are ineligible to vote, or lots of people who are eligible to vote and want to vote are not having their votes counted. If demanding voter id counts as disenfranchisement, then a voting system that >10% of the electorate fail to navigate successfully is also disenfranchisement. It is too late to fix any of this now in anything other than a mad panic.
We. Aren't. Talking. About. Freaking. 2014.

You're inability to admit that neither fraud nor disenfranchisement had anything to do with last spring's NY election when you have been unable to provide a single piece of evidence in support and have to resort to such ridiculous nonsense as the above tells me I'm just



Buh bye.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:36 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Why? Because CA has a system in place. Their postal system was set up to handle it. NY's was not. If Trump had not started, and was not still pursuing, his campaign to hinder the Postal Service from preparing for mail in voting, states could be prepared for it. He is doing everything in his power to create the very mess he claims will happen in order to cast doubt on the election if he loses.
Again, as i have said before, i am not claiming and have not claimed that it is impossible to implement postal voting. NYC had a 14% rejection rate in 2014. This issue is pre-Trump and mostly todo with people failing to complete the mail in ballot correctly. No question it has been made worse by issues with the mail.

By the sound of it, it's you who is concerned that there will be malfeasance in the postal vote - obviously you believe coming from Trump. This is why changing the way the election is organized across the country with a few months notice is a problematic thing to do. Were I concerned that Trump was a corrupt tyrant, I would be concerned about moving the election to a postal vote at short notice and pushing to change the requirements for the ballots. This sounds much easier than rigging a regular election.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:51 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
When you can't get the ball over the goal, just move the entire goalpost and hope no one notices, heh? I noticed.
Is there really any point having a pedantic battle over definitions? Such things are frequently enough described as "effectively disenfranchising" voters. I've made it clear enough what I mean. The original point was that given that there are problems with New York in terms of the way postal votes are organized and we have only a few months to go before the general election, it is far from certain that there won't have significant numbers votes getting rejected then as well.
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Old 13th August 2020, 05:56 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
There is implementing it, and there is implementing it in a few months on the scale being proposed here. It's the timescale that is the concern. We won't know if there are flaws in the system until election night.
So you're buying into Trump's desperation?
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:08 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Sure. So in principle it can be done. I don't disagree. Those 5 states doing it by mail for years didn't stop New York screwing it up.
It appears you are referring to a SINGLE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

Mail-in ballot issues continue in troubled NY 12th Congressional District race
Quote:
“The State Board of Elections, the City Board of Elections mailed out and printed ballots late. They didn’t scale up in time,” Najmi said. “And they made a bet against how many people would really want to vote by mail in this election. … And the United States Postal Service, well, they're not perfect. They've had issues with their automated system in terms of delivering postmarks on to ballot envelopes and as well as accounting for the timeliness of their deliveries.”
Well good. They had a trial run to clear up the bugs.

I fail to see how this doom and gloom fear-mongering that Trump is promoting to sabotage the election he knows he's going to lose in Nov is a truly valid concern.

If he weren't so desperate to sabotage the vote he'd be funding the USPS and doing whatever could be done to make it possible for everyone to vote.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Aren't you arguing that a postal vote is secure, resistant to fraud and easily implemented? In that case, I'm sure it will be fine.
Yes, they are called absentee ballots and all states use them. Service personnel out of the country vote absentee every election.

You can't just stuff the ballot boxes with counterfeit ballots. They have a name attached, a signature, you have to be registered to vote first.

This is fear mongering at Trump's finest.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:12 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
By the sound of it you are agreeing that 20% of the votes in New York were cast by eligible voters in New York whose votes ended up not counting due to the election process. Hopefully we both agree that that is somewhat unfortunate, and would be still more unfortunate if anything remotely like that happened at the general. I kind of doubt that if Trump wins and 20% of the vote in some key state gets thrown into the trash you will be quibbling like this.
I don't see a link to this bull **** assertion. And there is no such reference in the article I did link to.

I suspect you are parroting some right-wing fabrication.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:14 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Yet demanding voter id counts as disenfranchising people. I bet if it turns out that some democrat favouring demographic is disproportionately getting their votes discarded in November it will suddenly become disenfranchisement again.
I can see you didn't do your homework as to how absentee voting and vote by mail actually works. You should do that. It will make you less susceptible to being hoodwinked.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:14 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you're buying into Trump's desperation?
I don't think I'm basing my thinking on Trumps feelings.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:18 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Again, as i have said before, i am not claiming and have not claimed that it is impossible to implement postal voting. NYC had a 14% rejection rate in 2014. This issue is pre-Trump and mostly todo with people failing to complete the mail in ballot correctly. No question it has been made worse by issues with the mail.

By the sound of it, it's you who is concerned that there will be malfeasance in the postal vote - obviously you believe coming from Trump. This is why changing the way the election is organized across the country with a few months notice is a problematic thing to do. Were I concerned that Trump was a corrupt tyrant, I would be concerned about moving the election to a postal vote at short notice and pushing to change the requirements for the ballots. This sounds much easier than rigging a regular election.
Again, no link to a 14% rejection rate in 2014 or a 20% rejection rate this year.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:19 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I don't think I'm basing my thinking on Trumps feelings.
Well you don't seem to be basing it on anything you've cited.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:20 PM   #132
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So this is where we stand:
Quote:
The following scenario is not only possible, but highly likely: It’s a week from the election and millions of people finally get around to requesting an absentee ballot. They fill out the ballot and mail it back, but by the time it finally makes its way to their local officials, Election Day has passed and their votes don’t count.

That’s because — and this is vital to understand — in 34 states, including the swing states of Arizona, Georgia, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, ballots can’t just be postmarked by Election Day to count. It has to be received by Election Day. If you mail it three days before, thinking you did everything right, but it doesn’t arrive at the board of elections until the day after the election, it’s tossed in the trash.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...nal-emergency/
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:27 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
That's going to be pretty hard to reconcile with all the overseas military voters and past tradition.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:35 PM   #134
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Yep, leave it to GOP run elections to disenfranchise as many Democratic voters as they possibly can.

Voting by mail and absentee voting
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:40 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It appears you are referring to a SINGLE CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.
If page 30 the report linked to in the NBC article linked to earlier is anything to go by:
https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/fi...AVS_Report.pdf
it looks like the 14% I referred to was for the state of New York. That is definitely an outlier, but there are plenty in the mid-single digits for the % rejected mail in ballots.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, they are called absentee ballots and all states use them. Service personnel out of the country vote absentee every election.
I'm pretty sure everybody knows this.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can't just stuff the ballot boxes with counterfeit ballots. They have a name attached, a signature, you have to be registered to vote first.
Sure, and in a contested election, I can't imagine the logistics of checking this kind of thing. Won't it be hanging chads, but worse?

Last edited by shuttlt; 13th August 2020 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:40 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So this is where we stand:
Quote:
Quote:
The following scenario is not only possible, but highly likely: It’s a week from the election and millions of people finally get around to requesting an absentee ballot. They fill out the ballot and mail it back, but by the time it finally makes its way to their local officials, Election Day has passed and their votes don’t count.

That’s because — and this is vital to understand — in 34 states, including the swing states of Arizona, Georgia, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, ballots can’t just be postmarked by Election Day to count. It has to be received by Election Day. If you mail it three days before, thinking you did everything right, but it doesn’t arrive at the board of elections until the day after the election, it’s tossed in the trash.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...nal-emergency/
Easily rectified by a mass information campaign starting immediately. TV, radio, billboards, internet, etc.
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Old 13th August 2020, 06:56 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If page 30 the report linked to in the NBC article linked to earlier is anything to go by:
https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/fi...AVS_Report.pdf
it looks like the 14% I referred to was for the state of New York. That is definitely an outlier, but there are plenty in the mid-single digits for the % rejected mail in ballots.
That's from 2018 and it refers to the whole country. You cited 14% ballot issues from 2014 and before that you cited 20% from the current primary IN NY.

But since you cite this report as evidence of ... issues, let's look at the exec summary.

Quote:
More than half of voters cast their ballots in person on Election Day, and one-quarter of
participants cast their ballots by mail. Nearly one-fifth voted early at in-person early voting sites,
a rate that more than doubled since the 2014 elections....
Don't see the mail-in voting yet...
Quote:
However, recruiting poll workers continues to be a challenge for many
states and jurisdictions, with nearly 70 percent of responding jurisdictions reporting that it was
“very difficult” or “somewhat difficult” to obtain a sufficient number of poll workers.
Well son of a gun, it's in-person voting that is the issue.

But moving on to "key findings" I don't see a damn thing about the inability to manage the mail-in votes.

I'm going to let you sort through the 300+ pages to find whatever it is you think this citation supports.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm pretty sure everybody knows this.
That was the point.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Sure, and in a contested election, I can't imagine the logistics of checking this kind of thing. Won't it be hanging chads, but worse?
So you are in favor of dismantling the USPS and what, blocking absentee voting to prevent a problem with mail in ballots?

You do know Trump admitted he votes absentee every election so it's OK in Florida.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 07:10 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Again, no link to a 14% rejection rate in 2014 or a 20% rejection rate this year.
We were discussing an NBC article that was linked to earlier that quotes 1 in 5 rejected. That is 20%. Here is the link again:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...imary-n1236143

In that same article they mention the 14%. I may have got my wires crossed and said 2014 instead of 2018 earlier. That's my bad.
https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/fi...AVS_Report.pdf
p.30 is the data.

Back in 2016 the rejection number for New York was 5%.
https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/fi...ive_Report.pdf
p.24

In 2014 it was 7.4%
https://www.eac.gov/sites/default/fi..._Compliant.pdf
p.215

For some of the states with high rejection rates it looks like maybe that is associated with low numbers of mail in ballots, but not New York.
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Old 13th August 2020, 07:24 PM   #139
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A PA judge has told the Trump campaign they must present evidence of mail in voter fraud by tomorrow in their laws suit in June's primary election over unmonitored drop boxes. They had previously refused to provide Dems' request to do so (gee, I wonder why?).
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Old 13th August 2020, 07:26 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's from 2018 and it refers to the whole country. You cited 14% ballot issues from 2014 and before that you cited 20% from the current primary IN NY.
I know. 2014 was my error as I said. The numbers go up and down, but the same broad statement applies. They have a relatively high number of rejections against a relatively high number of mail in votes.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
But since you cite this report as evidence of ... issues, let's look at the exec summary.

Don't see the mail-in voting yet...
No, that's on p.30. I did give the page reference in the section of my post you quoted.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Well son of a gun, it's in-person voting that is the issue.

But moving on to "key findings" I don't see a damn thing about the inability to manage the mail-in votes.
I can't speak to other issues, but I did look up the rejected mail in votes on page 30.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm going to let you sort through the 300+ pages to find whatever it is you think this citation supports.
p.30. It isn't hard to find if you search on "rejected". I've just done that on a bunch of those reports.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That was the point.
OK.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you are in favor of dismantling the USPS and what, blocking absentee voting to prevent a problem with mail in ballots?
What?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You do know Trump admitted he votes absentee every election so it's OK in Florida.
Yes. I'm not sure how that relates to the question of whether a vastly expanded mail in election is going to run into problems.
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Old 13th August 2020, 09:09 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
What are the thoughts out there about Mail in ballots? Will it open the door to Voting Corruption or is it just another manifestion of Covid 19?
It hasn't opened any doors to voter corruption in the last 155 years, so no.
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Old 13th August 2020, 09:27 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'm a total idiot. I had a mail-in ballot for the primary and did a precursory look at it a month or so ago when I got it. Somehow it got buried in my other papers and I just found it again today, a day after the election. Ooooops. Fortunately my choice won.
Be on your toes in the general! I'm convinced the GOP will steal every vote they can. In 2016 liberal blogs were putting Hillary's odds of winning at 98 percent. Complacency might have suppressed turnout enough to give Trump an edge.

I'm a registered Republican which I hope means my ballot won't get tossed in the trash.
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Old 13th August 2020, 09:34 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
He's now claiming that Russia, China, Iran, and/or N. Korea could print up ballots and forge or take them and manipulate the election. Um....no.
I would think that Trump would be happy about foreign interference.
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Old 13th August 2020, 09:39 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Be on your toes in the general! I'm convinced the GOP will steal every vote they can. In 2016 liberal blogs were putting Hillary's odds of winning at 98 percent. Complacency might have suppressed turnout enough to give Trump an edge.

I'm a registered Republican which I hope means my ballot won't get tossed in the trash.
I don't know about other states but in WA one's party affiliation is not on the ballots in the general election.

Instead the GOP minions challenge votes by districts. If you vote in a majority Democratic district, your ballot has a much greater chance of being challenged.
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Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
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Old 13th August 2020, 09:53 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't know about other states but in WA one's party affiliation is not on the ballots in the general election.

Instead the GOP minions challenge votes by districts. If you vote in a majority Democratic district, your ballot has a much greater chance of being challenged.
I'm pretty sure I live in a highly Democratic congressional district.

There was apparently a way to check to make sure my ballot had arrived in 2018 but I didn't do that. This year I might.
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Old 13th August 2020, 10:39 PM   #146
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Just noting that in Vermont absentee ballots can be delivered either in person or to a drop box at the town hall. I believe also that, at least in the case of State ballots, if not all, it's the postmark, not the delivery time, that determines the timeliness.

It's actually possible to do this.
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Old 13th August 2020, 10:54 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
It's a Republic.
I don't get this argument. What has the type of government to do with how said government is put in power? "Republic" doesn't mean "not democracy" nor does "not democracy" mean "republic". Most of the world's republics are democracies.
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Old 14th August 2020, 12:38 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
I don't get this argument. What has the type of government to do with how said government is put in power? "Republic" doesn't mean "not democracy" nor does "not democracy" mean "republic". Most of the world's republics are democracies.
I think it means he doesn't care about fair election processes as long as his team wins. He doesn't care if his team becomes the authoritarian leaders of a new dictatorial Republic.
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Old 14th August 2020, 03:53 AM   #149
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Trump opposes additional funding for the postal service, because without that funding universal mail-in voting will be impossible
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Old 14th August 2020, 08:46 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I think it means he doesn't care about fair election processes as long as his team wins. He doesn't care if his team becomes the authoritarian leaders of a new dictatorial Republic.
No, they definitely care. That's their goal.
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:02 AM   #151
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Well, if it means anything, at least some republicans think Trump is making a mistake in attacking mail-in ballots.

From: CNN
Behind the scenes, top Republicans are urging senior Trump campaign officials to press the President to change his messaging and embrace mail-in voting, warning that the party could lose the battle for control of Congress and the White House if he doesn't change his tune... Every vote will count in critical battleground states, they argue, fearful that deterring GOP voters from choosing a convenient option to cast their ballots could ultimately sway the outcome of races that are decided by a couple of percentage points.

In other words, some republicans are worried that Trump's actions may backfire. Which makes sense... unlike other methods of voter suppression (e.g. closing polls in districts with large minority populations, voter roll purges, etc.), messing with mail-in voting doesn't seem to have the same ability to differentiate between Republican and Democrat voters. And when Trump attacks mail-in voting, the ones that are most likely to listen to him are the MAGAchuds. So Trump may be suppressing his own vote.
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:12 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, if it means anything, at least some republicans think Trump is making a mistake in attacking mail-in ballots.

From: CNN
Behind the scenes, top Republicans are urging senior Trump campaign officials to press the President to change his messaging and embrace mail-in voting, warning that the party could lose the battle for control of Congress and the White House if he doesn't change his tune... Every vote will count in critical battleground states, they argue, fearful that deterring GOP voters from choosing a convenient option to cast their ballots could ultimately sway the outcome of races that are decided by a couple of percentage points.

In other words, some republicans are worried that Trump's actions may backfire. Which makes sense... unlike other methods of voter suppression (e.g. closing polls in districts with large minority populations, voter roll purges, etc.), messing with mail-in voting doesn't seem to have the same ability to differentiate between Republican and Democrat voters. And when Trump attacks mail-in voting, the ones that are most likely to listen to him are the MAGAchuds. So Trump may be suppressing his own vote.
It's a difficult position to be in considering Trump's lack of discipline and long term planning.

Attacking mail voting and the USPS only really makes sense if you're committed to a power grab. There's really no room for waffling on such a strategy, but waffling is Trump's favorite pass-time. If he isn't willing to cross the Rubicon on this attack on the vote, his slandering of mail voting could back-fire.
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Old 14th August 2020, 05:21 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I would think that Trump would be happy about foreign interference.
The irony is that HE is the one attempting to interfere in the election more than anyone else now
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:02 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, if it means anything, at least some republicans think Trump is making a mistake in attacking mail-in ballots.
Yes, but I think that Mitch is on board with Trump because he knows that their party is polling horribly. It appears that they are going for a scorched earth strategy as a hail-Mary. It's either a dictatorship for them beginning this year or they lose power for a few years and try it again.
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:31 PM   #155
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Rationally speaking, we can only trust older White people and military personnel to vote by mail.
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:41 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Rationally speaking, we can only trust older White people and military personnel to vote by mail.
They won’t be able to this year or at least not in time.
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Old 14th August 2020, 11:04 PM   #157
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I predict and hope that the election is sufficiently far away that all that Trump will achieve with his anti-USPS rhetoric is to harden the system for November - not even Republicans want the Trump Post Office killing elders by delaying their medication delivery.
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Old 14th August 2020, 11:22 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
r - not even Republicans want the Trump Post Office killing elders by delaying their medication delivery.
I think that depends on the skin color of those elderly.
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Old 14th August 2020, 11:46 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I think that depends on the skin color of those elderly.
touché.

Republicans accuse Dems for taking the Black Vote for granted, but they will happily defecate day-in-day-out on the elderly, soldiers and veterans in the conviction that they will vote for them anyway.
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Old 15th August 2020, 12:11 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
touché.

Republicans accuse Dems for taking the Black Vote for granted, but they will happily defecate day-in-day-out on the elderly, soldiers and veterans in the conviction that they will vote for them anyway.
They might stop taking them for granted if they didn't vote Republican
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