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Old 15th August 2020, 01:58 AM   #161
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, if it means anything, at least some republicans think Trump is making a mistake in attacking mail-in ballots.

From: CNN
Behind the scenes, top Republicans are urging senior Trump campaign officials to press the President to change his messaging and embrace mail-in voting, warning that the party could lose the battle for control of Congress and the White House if he doesn't change his tune... Every vote will count in critical battleground states, they argue, fearful that deterring GOP voters from choosing a convenient option to cast their ballots could ultimately sway the outcome of races that are decided by a couple of percentage points.

In other words, some republicans are worried that Trump's actions may backfire. Which makes sense... unlike other methods of voter suppression (e.g. closing polls in districts with large minority populations, voter roll purges, etc.), messing with mail-in voting doesn't seem to have the same ability to differentiate between Republican and Democrat voters. And when Trump attacks mail-in voting, the ones that are most likely to listen to him are the MAGAchuds. So Trump may be suppressing his own vote.
But he's only against main-in voting if it's where he thinks it will hurt democrats. Again, look at the difference in response to Nevada and Florida.
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Old 15th August 2020, 02:13 AM   #162
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we will get a fully-funded Postal Service and Mail-in-ballot setup in no time if we tell Trump that the alternative is voting via Tik-Tok.
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Old 15th August 2020, 04:55 AM   #163
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Trump's plan to cripple the US election is working:

Postal Service Warns Mail-In Ballots In 46 States May Not Be Delivered In Time
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Old 15th August 2020, 11:07 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Trump's plan to cripple the US election is working:

Postal Service Warns Mail-In Ballots In 46 States May Not Be Delivered In Time
It helps when you have a Trump crony in charge of the USPS doing everything he can to slow down delivery service, remove post office boxes (which has now been stopped over Dem outcry), and eliminate overtime.
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Old 15th August 2020, 11:51 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I predict and hope that the election is sufficiently far away that all that Trump will achieve with his anti-USPS rhetoric is to harden the system for November - not even Republicans want the Trump Post Office killing elders by delaying their medication delivery.
The problem with that is that Trump's hand-picked Postmaster General is a Trump crony and donor. His sole task right now is to get Trump reelected. If destruction of the Post Office also happens, then it's a win-win for them.
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Old 16th August 2020, 03:53 AM   #166
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Dan rather had this to say about Trump's attempt to crash the USPS

He tweeted...
"So Joe Biden can now run on saving the Postal Service. That's a gift - the equivalent of a two-foot putt in politics. Donald Trump probably knows about two-foot putts. Or does he cheat on those too?"

https://twitter.com/DanRather/status...61097446727680

Classic Dan Rather!
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Old 16th August 2020, 03:55 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It helps when you have a Trump crony in charge of the USPS doing everything he can to slow down delivery service, remove post office boxes (which has now been stopped over Dem outcry), and eliminate overtime.
Do I see an opportunity here for FEDEX?
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Old 16th August 2020, 04:04 AM   #168
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US Rep. Bill Pascrell Jr. has made a formal Criminal Referral of Donald Trump and USPS Postmaster General Louis DeJoy to the New Jersey Attorney General, for Election Subversion.

https://lawandcrime.com/2020-electio...ostal-service/
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Old 16th August 2020, 04:21 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It helps when you have a Trump crony in charge of the USPS doing everything he can to slow down delivery service, remove post office boxes (which has now been stopped over Dem outcry), and eliminate overtime.
They've also instituted a programme of getting rid of sorting machines, although that did begin before the new head was in charge. There are reports from insiders saying that they've literally seen working machines being purposely destroyed to ensure they can't be used.
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Old 16th August 2020, 04:26 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The problem with that is that Trump's hand-picked Postmaster General is a Trump crony and donor. His sole task right now is to get Trump reelected. If destruction of the Post Office also happens, then it's a win-win for them.
He also has, with his wife, between $30m and 75m worth of investments in rival mail carriers.
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Old 16th August 2020, 06:09 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Dan rather had this to say about Trump's attempt to crash the USPS



He tweeted...

"So Joe Biden can now run on saving the Postal Service. That's a gift - the equivalent of a two-foot putt in politics. Donald Trump probably knows about two-foot putts. Or does he cheat on those too?"



Classic Dan Rather!
He has a good point.

Lots of people do like having the post office. And I suspect this is particularly true among seniors (a demographic group that had been more supportive of the Republicans in past elections.)

A campaign ad talking about how trump's dismantling of the post office is preventing you getting birthday cards, medicines, and your social security cheques delivered on time could do some damage.



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Old 16th August 2020, 06:51 AM   #172
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There was a small protest outside DeJoy’s condo.

https://dcist.com/story/20/08/15/pro...n-voting-loom/
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Old 16th August 2020, 08:18 AM   #173
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Republicans:" the Postal Service doesn't work!"
Everyone else:"it's working fine"
Republicans:"not when one of us is running it!"
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Old 16th August 2020, 01:01 PM   #174
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Earlier today, Jake Tapper confronted the WH Chief of Staff Mark Meadows with the fact that there is no evidence of widespread mail in voter fraud. Meadows retorted with this idiocy: "There's no evidence there's not either. That's the definition of fraud, Jake!"

So the definition of fraud is that there's no evidence of it. Uh huh. Right. Got it.
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Old 16th August 2020, 01:09 PM   #175
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It's a crime that Republicans have to resort to fraud to win.
Trump is just leveling the playing field that got lopsided by the the GOP being repulsive to voters.
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Old 16th August 2020, 01:38 PM   #176
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Trump falsely claimed in May that kids raided ballot drop boxes, collected ballots and gave them to people 'down at the end of the street' who then fraudulently signed them. There was zero evidence of this. The man just lies and lies and lies.
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Old 16th August 2020, 03:19 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Do I see an opportunity here for FEDEX?
No. For one thing, in many states, mailed ballots must have a postmark. Only the USPS can do that. However, most--if not all--states have ballot drop boxes. That seems to be the safest option.
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Old 16th August 2020, 03:54 PM   #178
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It varies by state, but I seem to recall hearing one account in which some state which does not allow ballots to be hand delivered did allow other carriers than USPS, including UPS and Fedex, which does suggest that there could be an opening for an alternative system. I think it would a grand public relations gesture if some outfit like UPS stepped in and made arrangements. Perhaps even if there is a USPS proviso, they could provide some service in which they sort or process ballots and then leave the final delivery to USPS, as they sometimes do currently.
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Old 16th August 2020, 03:58 PM   #179
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Rational People: "We're afraid Trump is going to purposely sabotage the Postal Service to rig the election."
Trumpers: "LOL lookit the triggered libs. You're being dramatic."
Trump: "Hi this is President Donald Trump. I'm literally saying I'm going to purposely sabotage the Postal Service to rig the election. Here's my saying it. Here's a copy of my new book Rigging the Postal Service to Rig the Election: This is Totally What I'm Doing."
Trumpers: "LOL triggered libs."
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Old 16th August 2020, 04:07 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Trump's plan to cripple the US election is working:

Postal Service Warns Mail-In Ballots In 46 States May Not Be Delivered In Time
Land of the free!
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Old 16th August 2020, 04:12 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Rational People: "We're afraid Trump is going to purposely sabotage the Postal Service to rig the election."
Trumpers: "LOL lookit the triggered libs. You're being dramatic."
Trump: "Hi this is President Donald Trump. I'm literally saying I'm going to purposely sabotage the Postal Service to rig the election. Here's my saying it. Here's a copy of my new book Rigging the Postal Service to Rig the Election: This is Totally What I'm Doing."
Trumpers: "LOL triggered libs."
It's clear what they care about: winning at all costs.

People who don't care about democracy should not participate in it.
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Old 16th August 2020, 04:35 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Rational People: "We're afraid Trump is going to purposely sabotage the Postal Service to rig the election."
Trumpers: "LOL lookit the triggered libs. You're being dramatic."
Trump: "Hi this is President Donald Trump. I'm literally saying I'm going to purposely sabotage the Postal Service to rig the election. Here's my saying it. Here's a copy of my new book Rigging the Postal Service to Rig the Election: This is Totally What I'm Doing."
Trumpers: "LOL triggered libs."
Trumpter: He was just joking!
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Old 16th August 2020, 05:00 PM   #183
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Imagine if in the summer of '12 Obama had even breathed a hint of considering hobbling the USPS...

Last edited by Lurch; 16th August 2020 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 16th August 2020, 05:32 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Imagine if in the summer of '12 Obama had even breathed a hint of considering hobbling the USPS...
Obama was a black non-American liberal.

You have to understand it's not hypocrisy to them because there's obviously a group of people who are just better and a group of people who are just worse, so it would be insane, literally unthinkable, to suggest the rules should apply to all of them equally.

It's like a prisoner suggesting it's "hypocrisy" that he's in the cell and the prison guard isn't, or a child suggesting it's "hypocrisy" that they don't get a say in how the household is run and their parents do.

The disparage between "us" and "them" is so obvious, so self obvious, indeed so self defining that they have literally never thought about it so they don't even think about it on any conscious level.
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Old 16th August 2020, 07:52 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Republicans:" the Postal Service doesn't work!"
Everyone else:"it's working fine"
Republicans:"not when one of us is running it!"
Republicans: "the Postal Service doesn't work!"
Everyone else: "It's working fine"
(Republicans take a flamethrower to the Postal Service)
Republicans: "How about NOW??"
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Old 16th August 2020, 08:40 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Quote:
In other words, some republicans are worried that Trump's actions may backfire. Which makes sense... unlike other methods of voter suppression (e.g. closing polls in districts with large minority populations, voter roll purges, etc.), messing with mail-in voting doesn't seem to have the same ability to differentiate between Republican and Democrat voters. And when Trump attacks mail-in voting, the ones that are most likely to listen to him are the MAGAchuds. So Trump may be suppressing his own vote.
But he's only against main-in voting if it's where he thinks it will hurt democrats. Again, look at the difference in response to Nevada and Florida.
But the problem for Trump is that the presidency is decided by winning states, not winning the overall popular vote. And if a state offers expanded vote-by-mail, I can't think of an easy way to differentiate between a republican and a democratic voter within that state.
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Old 16th August 2020, 09:21 PM   #187
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You know, I just thought of another reason why Trump's attempts to sabotage the post-office might backfire on him.

Lets say Trump's actions cause mail delivery to slow down (so that some ballots may not be received in time.) But if I remember correctly, mail delivery within a city is usually faster than delivery in rural areas (due to greater population density, economy of scale, etc.) But Trump's has less support in urban areas than rural areas. By slowing mail, he may be making it harder for his own people to vote.
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Old 16th August 2020, 10:18 PM   #188
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The issue that needs to be discussed is that voting systems are designed to function with certain assumptions based on past practices. If large numbers of votes aren't counted because paper ballots didn't reach voters in time, or ballots weren't returned in time, it would invalidate the election results -- except there is no legal process to invalidate an election on that basis, or to have a redo. We might actually find out how many ballots weren't counted, but we won't know who they would have been votes for.

The real suspicion is that Trump hopes to raise enough doubts and conflicts that the election will be thrown into the House, where each state will get one vote -- and there are more Repub states than Democrat.
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Old 16th August 2020, 10:43 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
But the problem for Trump is that the presidency is decided by winning states, not winning the overall popular vote. And if a state offers expanded vote-by-mail, I can't think of an easy way to differentiate between a republican and a democratic voter within that state.
Reports I've seen say that Democrats are twice as likely to vote by mail. If that's accurate then any disruption of postal voting is going to affect the Democrats disproportionately.

If mail in voting is universal in a state then delaying the delivery or collection in some neighborhoods will target Democrats.

They could even be super-bold and target the idea that urban areas have a better postal service by switching resources to bolster rural services at the expense of urban ones.
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Old 16th August 2020, 10:48 PM   #190
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It seems to me that the man in the street in the US gets more worked up over cheating in pro sports than in political elections.

I'd bet that a MAGA hat would feel more of a twinge of shame if his home ball team cheated than he would if he knew Trump or his Congressional rep cheated. Concerning sports, there is still a general societal contract where cheating is a low and base thing to engage in. But in politics, it's more of a dog eat dog, rat **** mentality.

Strange, really, how in the more consequential milieu comportment is attended with less moral constraint.
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Old 17th August 2020, 12:25 AM   #191
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In a nutshell:

Clipboard01.jpg

https://twitter.com/Patbagley/status...70232234016768
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Old 17th August 2020, 03:06 AM   #192
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For a while now, people on one side of the political divide in the US have been claiming that those on the other side are going to steal the election. It's not just Republicans (though IMO they're the ones who, for the last couple of decades, have been screaming about imagined wide scale voter fraud), Democrats have also had claims about hacked voting machines, irregularities in process and so on.

I realise that there have been major efforts over the last few election cycles to prevent certain people from voting by purging election rolls, implementing voter ID regulations, making it difficult to get to polling stations and so on but IMO these have been somewhat localised and relatively modest in scope.

This is the first time I can remember an American election where there is reasonable concern for the integrity of the process on a widespread basis. My in-laws in New Jersey are trying to decide how to cast their votes to preserve their safety whilst ensuring that their votes count. They have no confidence in the USPS. Mrs Don will cast her absentee ballot by post as always but she has little confidence that it will end up being counted because non-military ex-pats lean heavily towards the Democrats and so she expects that there's a high likelihood that her ballot will be lost somewhere along the way. She was considering sending it under plain cover to her parents so that they could drop it off in person.
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Old 17th August 2020, 05:10 AM   #193
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Mark Meadows says that we can't prove that there isn't mail-in voter fraud on CNN..even go so far as to say that the inability to prove there isn't fraud is part of the definition.
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Old 17th August 2020, 05:15 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Mark Meadows says that we can't prove that there isn't mail-in voter fraud on CNN..even go so far as to say that the inability to prove there isn't fraud is part of the definition.
We also can't prove that Mark Meadows isn't a fraud, and that is probably also part of the definition.
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Old 17th August 2020, 05:23 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Mark Meadows says that we can't prove that there isn't mail-in voter fraud on CNN..even go so far as to say that the inability to prove there isn't fraud is part of the definition.
That's a consistent message the right has been pushing.

One of the reasons why Hillary had to be crooked was the absence of evidence of wrongdoing. This means that she, and her organisation, must be so used to having to hide things, they've become expert at cover-ups.

OTOH all the ample apparent evidence of President Trump's illegal activities is a clear indicator of his fundamental honesty. He's so honest, he hasn't even thought of covering things up - hence the evidence.
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Old 17th August 2020, 05:23 AM   #196
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
We also can't prove that Mark Meadows isn't a fraud, and that is probably also part of the definition.
It's not surprising. These are the same morons that think "you can't prove the my god isn't real" is a reasonable statement.
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Old 17th August 2020, 05:33 AM   #197
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Another thing we're dealing with in politics because we refused to deal with it in Woo.
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Old 17th August 2020, 05:39 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Another thing we're dealing with in politics because we refused to deal with it in Woo.
I'm not sure it's a refusal to deal with it, more that it's now a case that there are a lot of people who are impervious to evidence.

They have been told and/or have decided that mail-in voting is insecure (whereas absentee ballots are just fine and dandy) and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them because it doesn't fit in with their chosen narrative.
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Old 17th August 2020, 11:22 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not sure it's a refusal to deal with it, more that it's now a case that there are a lot of people who are impervious to evidence.

They have been told and/or have decided that mail-in voting is insecure (whereas absentee ballots are just fine and dandy) and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them because it doesn't fit in with their chosen narrative.
The USPS can somehow cope with 'absentee' ballots but not with 'mail in' ballots.
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Old 17th August 2020, 07:02 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The USPS can somehow cope with 'absentee' ballots but not with 'mail in' ballots.
That's because mail in ballots are going out to everyone and their dogs, and the illegals, and the dead....
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