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View Poll Results: American Civil War II: Is It Coming
American Civil War II is coming soon, perhaps even soon after this election. 12 19.35%
American Civil War II is coming sometime in the next few years. 10 16.13%
American Civil War II is coming in the foreseeable future, but not for at least a decade or so.. 4 6.45%
American Civil War II is not coming anytime in the foreseeable future. 23 37.10%
American Civil War II is never going to happen. 8 12.90%
American Civil War II is coming soon to Netflix, starring Dwayne Johnson! 9 14.52%
Planet X Civil War XXXVII is coming soon! 6 9.68%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 1st September 2020, 05:45 PM   #81
Horatius
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have no idea at all how such a civil war would be done today, or even if something could be done today that would justify using the term at all.

What manner do you think it would be done in, today?


The next US Civil War, if it happens, won't start with state or federal level troops fighting. That might happen later in the war, but it won't be the start.


What will start it is local communities, in which one portion of the population turns on another, akin to ethnic cleansing we've seen in places like Serbia and Rwanda. Picture a community Of Faction X mixed with Faction Y. It really doesn't matter how you assign the X and Y, by the way. At some point, Faction X will start to believe that all the problems could be solved if they could just get Faction Y to move along. So, they attack the Faction Y members of the community, killing some, and forcing others to move. Maybe not all of Faction Y, but just enough to "teach them a lesson", "put them on notice" or some such verbiage.

This will be widely condemned, but after the fact condemnation won't bring back the dead, or replace the burned out houses.

Then, there will be other communities, where Faction Y starts thinking..."Hey, look at what happened in that other town. I bet you Faction X is planning the same thing, right here in our Town. We'd better do it to them before they do it to us!!!"

Wash, rinse and repeat, in small towns all over the US. The more it happens, the faster the rate increases - we get into a spiral of violence and counter-violence that feeds on itself.

We're already seeing the beginnings of this, by the way. How many small towns heard rumors of "Antifa is coming!" and turned out with guns to repel them? Sure, this time it turned out to just be a bunch of rednecks swearing at their local hippies and leftists, but it won't always work out so well. When you have idiots with guns running around, eventually someone will get shot, which we've seen at least twice now in the last week or so. It won't take much for this to escalate.

Local police might try to contain it at first, but they'll quickly get overwhelmed (those who aren't part of the mob themselves, of course). National Guard and Federal military will probably be called in at some point, when the local violence gets big enough, and then we run into the classic question - will the US military fire on US civilians? Will the military tend to support Faction X over Faction Y? Then they might only stop some violence, not all. Then Faction Y will essentially be in full rebellion, since they know no one will defend them.

At some point, the legitimacy of the federal government will start to suffer. Some states might see secession as the only way to get out of the mess. Others might just be acting cynically for their own benefit. Some state governments might also lose legitimacy, and fall into anarchy. Regional strongmen might arise, and see an opportunity to loot the weaker states while federal troops are involved somewhere else.

Civil War The First will look positively well-organized in comparison to the coming **** show.
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Old 1st September 2020, 06:02 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is the part that interests me the most. I think I have a good idea of how the first civil war was done: Several state governments decided they didn't like the direction federal policy was going. They felt they had more in common with each other than with the other states, so they declared independence, formed their own Union, established their own government, and went about setting up collective security and trying to start their international trade and diplomacy game. But the feds wouldn't let them take over federal facilities within their borders, or even recognize them as an independent polity. Then the shooting started, and since the states effectively had their own armies, and the two sides were more or less evenly matched, it promptly escalated into a full-blown war of secession.

I have no idea at all how such a civil war would be done today, or even if something could be done today that would justify using the term at all.

What manner do you think it would be done in, today?
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I feel quite certain that the liberals around here are not proposing secession; after all, that would be treason.
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but...

a) none of the liberals are proposing secession.
b) proposing secession is not, in itself, treason (as defined by the United States constitution).
c) theprestige leaves out from the "Then the shooting started" explanation of the beginning of the American Civil War, that it was initiated by southern militia when they attacked Fort Sumter, and thus was an absolute clear-cut example of treason under the United States Constitution. Thus it was not secession so much as "levying war against [the United States]" that was treason.
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Old 1st September 2020, 06:22 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but...

a) none of the liberals are proposing secession.
Some liberals are pointing to States' Rights in the face of the White House's recent behaviour, and that's like secession, isn't it?
Quote:
b) proposing secession is not, in itself, treason (as defined by the United States constitution).
It would have been a deal-breaker.
Quote:
c) theprestige leaves out from the "Then the shooting started" explanation of the beginning of the American Civil War, that it was initiated by southern militia when they attacked Fort Sumter, and thus was an absolute clear-cut example of treason under the United States Constitution. Thus it was not secession so much as "levying war against [the United States]" that was treason.
Quite. Treason was a touchy subject at the time, since it had so often been a tool of tyranny, but the "levying war" thing was a no-brainer.
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Old 1st September 2020, 06:34 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
The next US Civil War, if it happens, won't start with state or federal level troops fighting. That might happen later in the war, but it won't be the start.

What will start it is local communities, in which one portion of the population turns on another, akin to ethnic cleansing we've seen in places like Serbia and Rwanda....
I see it starting differently. And only if Trump wins.

Trump's brazen voter suppression campaign guarantees the other side won't trust the result
Trump declared winner.
Instant, massive protests making May-June seem like tiddlywinks.
Unfettered Trump responds like the thug he is -- gas on the fire.
Things unwind from there in unpredictable ways.

Call it civil war. Call it domestic strife on a level that hasn't been seen since the civil war. Whatever.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 04:09 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I see it starting differently. And only if Trump wins.

Trump's brazen voter suppression campaign guarantees the other side won't trust the result
Trump declared winner.
Instant, massive protests making May-June seem like tiddlywinks.
Unfettered Trump responds like the thug he is -- gas on the fire.
Things unwind from there in unpredictable ways.

Call it civil war. Call it domestic strife on a level that hasn't been seen since the civil war. Whatever.
Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?
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Old 2nd September 2020, 05:16 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?
He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen".

That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious.

There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 05:20 AM   #87
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I see violence no matter who wins. Trumps blatant voter turnout suppression and calls about fraud mean no matter who wins the other side will not view the results as legitimate, and if Trump loses he is sure to blame illegals voting just like last time and why he lost the popular vote.

No matter what happens I expect a rising tide of politicaly motivated violence and a real body count from the far right.
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Old 2nd September 2020, 06:12 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pushing for rioting after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?
I am unambiguously opposed to wanton destructiveness. In our potential dystopian future, as well as the dystopian present, I wish people would not do that. It's counter productive. There are other ways to cripple "the system" if there is sufficient depth and breadth of opposition.

Re the China part ... guffaw!
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Old 2nd September 2020, 06:30 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
... Political violence is going to be on the rise for quite some time, regardless of if you call it a civil war or not.
Agreed.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 05:51 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen".

That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious.

There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous.
Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 05:59 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed.
LOL. If there were anything useful or interesting left to say about the topic, you'd be saying it, instead of posting about other members. Why should ML take your advice, when you won't even follow it?
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:10 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I am unambiguously opposed to wanton destructiveness. In our potential dystopian future, as well as the dystopian present, I wish people would not do that. It's counter productive. There are other ways to cripple "the system" if there is sufficient depth and breadth of opposition.

Re the China part ... guffaw!
Pushing for a China dominated Dystopia, what kind of monster would you be here?
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:12 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Rocky is trolling and trying to bring in arguments from another thread into this one because he desperately needs to think he's owned a lib. Pay him no heed.
Nope, just piling on the truth in this otherwise pointless conversation of leftie lamentation. So pay heed, dammit.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:13 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
He is predicting what will happen if your Fuhrer wins second term. Predicting is not same thing as "I want it to happen".

That should be Captain Obvious moment, but for some people apparently it is not obvious.

There is, of course, alternative and way, way less nice interpretation: projection. In other words, wannabe traitor (in this case, supporter of wannabe authoritarian protofascist party) accusing others of being treasonous.
You know nothing of what I support. The lamenting over a lack of chinese interference in this thread is plainly shown by some.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:20 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pushing for rioting
Rioters demanding fair representation in the democratic process created the US.

When governments don’t respect peoples rights and freedoms riots and revolution are a natural recourse. The tyrants and their supporters invariably answer with violence in the name of “law and order”.
Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
after openly endorsing Chinese interference in our system? Really?
You are the one demanding the US adopt the Chinese system of oppressing people for demanding their rights and freedoms.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:23 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Rioters demanding fair representation in the democratic process created the US.
Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny.

Quote:
When governments don’t respect peoples rights and freedoms riots and revolution are a natural recourse. The tyrants and their supporters invariably answer with violence in the name of “law and order”.

You are the one demanding the US adopt the Chinese system of oppressing people for demanding their rights and freedoms.
Hardly, another person openly stated they wanted Chinese influence showing their love of big, invasive social credit score inducing gubment. I demanded no such thing and maybe reading comprehension would help you out there, unless you love Poo Bear so much to.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:26 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny.



Hardly, another person openly stated they wanted Chinese influence showing their love of big, invasive social credit score inducing gubment. I demanded no such thing and maybe reading comprehension would help you out there, unless you love Poo Bear so much to.
Looks like at least one person on earth is deeply affected by the "red scare" from decades ago.

ETA: Someone send a congratulatory message to McCarthy in hell.

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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:36 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Looks like at least one person on earth is deeply affected by the "red scare" from decades ago.
As opposed to the SJW loving traitors who long for it.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:38 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
As opposed to the SJW loving traitors who long for it.
Ah, "YOU DIRTY SJW", the last line of defense for racists, xenophobes and other scum.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:44 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
Ah, "YOU DIRTY SJW", the last line of defense for racists, xenophobes and other scum.
as opposed to Anarchists, and Cancel Culture loving Social Bullies who can only use racist as a slur because it's all they have. As opposed to the clarity that both sides are equally wrong and suck.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:51 AM   #101
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Indeed.
Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard.
After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened?
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:53 AM   #102
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Jesus people it's not rioting when white people do it. That's just science.

LOL triggered Lib SJW cuckholds.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 06:56 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
as opposed to Anarchists, and Cancel Culture loving Social Bullies who can only use racist as a slur because it's all they have. As opposed to the clarity that both sides are equally wrong and suck.
Trump is the biggest bully and proponent of Cancel Culture, as has the Koch-brother movement and the Evangelicals.
But because it was the Right doing it it was okay.
The Left is only now getting to the party.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 07:07 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Which side would the police and military be on?

I'm not sure the Troubles would be a good model, though. Northern Ireland was a case of a central government imposing a union on a local populace against their will.

What imposition by what governments would prompt the kind of separatist violence here, that happened there?

Who would be resisting? What side would the police and military presence be representing?

I mean, right now, in places like Portland, Chicago, Seattle, the violence is primarily coming from the left, calling for "secession" from their local police presence. How does that translate to the Troubles Model?
The political situations aren't analogous. I was just talking about the level of violence. I don't think we will get to a civil war, which would mean rival governments leading bands of troops, seizing control of territories, and plotting military strategy, but I'm wondering if we will get to a state where politically motivated violence and terrorism are commonplace, but short of an all out civil war.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 07:12 AM   #105
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Yeah a state of "LOL it's not technically a Civil War it's only sparkling civil constant ideological civil unrest and violence you triggered dramatic libs" sounds like exactly the kind of place a lot of people would just be tickled pink to find us at.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 07:14 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Indeed.
Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard.
After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened?
If Trump had been king, he'd have had his soldiers shoot them all dead on the spot.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 07:45 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by shemp
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Indeed.
Before you can call the riots illegitimate, you have to consider what other options the rioters have to get heard.
After all, the American Revolution started with a riot - I assume that one was illegitimate, too, and shouldn't have happened?
If Trump had been king, he'd have had his soldiers shoot them all dead on the spot.

If Shemp had been king, he'd have had bebebebebebebebebebebebe
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Old 3rd September 2020, 08:14 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Trump is the biggest bully and proponent of Cancel Culture, as has the Koch-brother movement and the Evangelicals.
But because it was the Right doing it it was okay.
The Left is only now getting to the party.
Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum
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Old 3rd September 2020, 08:28 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum
Even IF (big IF) that was the case, one should always hold those in power to a
higher standard than those in opposition.
you are very welcome to **** on Biden once he is elected, but for now, Trump is the one with tax-payer financed bully pulpit power.
Trump might be "only" just as bad, but he uses your money and wastes his time as President to bully others.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 08:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum
Has this been tested?
If we place Trump in a vacuum will he cease to exist or just explode?
Enquiring minds want to know.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 08:46 AM   #111
chrispy
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Pushing for a China dominated Dystopia, what kind of monster would you be here?
You keep bringing up a joke he made about Trump asking Russia for help- "Russia, are you listening?". He simply replaced it with China...as a joke. This was days ago, but you latched on to it and keep repeating it. You are

a) trolling, and poorly at that

B) being purposely obtuse

c) both a & b

I'll withold my answer so as not to violate the MA.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 08:49 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Wrong it was a bunch of whiners dumping tea over tea tax. Hardly tyranny.
It wasn’t the tax that had them upset (if fact they were protesting a tax cut) The real issue was that Parliament was making laws that applied to them even though they were not represented in that Parliament.

Denying people the right to have a say in the laws that govern them is a form of Tyranny. For those arguing "the US is promotes democracy", the US regularly makes laws that attempt to control what citizens of other democracies can and cannot do in their own countries.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 08:59 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
It wasn’t the tax that had them upset (if fact they were protesting a tax cut) The real issue was that Parliament was making laws that applied to them even though they were not represented in that Parliament.
Well, that's what they said was the reason. The real reason was the same as the reason for every revolution ever: people who wanted more power thought that was the way to get it. The wealthy elite in North America resented having to share power and wealth with the wealthy elite back in Europe, so they acted to sever the connection. They spouted a lot of flowery rhetoric and philosophy, and possibly even believed they believed it, but ultimately it's all pragmatism at the bottom. Hence "freedom", "equality", and a whole buncha slavery at the same time.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 09:16 AM   #114
Mader Levap
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You know nothing of what I support.
History of your posts gives pretty good picture about who you are and what you support.

Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Nope BOTH sides are guilty, and thus suck. Orange Man Bad doesnt exist in a vaccuum
You know that no one believes that you are sincere in your "both sides are bad reee" claim, right?
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Old 3rd September 2020, 09:17 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Has this been tested?
If we place Trump in a vacuum will he cease to exist or just explode?
Enquiring minds want to know.
We know how that would go! Never mind the vacuum. His skin is so thin he's barely able to maintain structural integrity. If he took off the suit and corset, his internal organs would spill onto the carpet.
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Old 3rd September 2020, 10:09 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
If Shemp had been king, he'd have had bebebebebebebebebebebebe
Damn right!
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:24 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Now, correct me if I am wrong, but...

a) none of the liberals are proposing secession.

In one scenario, John Podesta — the former chair of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, and a leading figure in party circles — played former Vice President Joe Biden, and refused to concede the election.

The result: the threat of secession by the entire West Coast, followed by the possible intervention of the U.S. armed forces:




Democrats contemplating secession and potential civil war after Biden loses in November (according to NY Times)
Democrats have participated in a “war game” in which they considered several possible outcomes of the election. Not only will Biden not concede, but the West Coast (California, Oregon, Washington) will succeed from the union and the official start of a civil war will begin. This is all the master plan of spirit cooker John Podesta.


https://www.pacificpundit.com/2020/0...g-to-ny-times/
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Old 6th September 2020, 10:26 PM   #118
Bob001
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
In one scenario, John Podesta — the former chair of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, and a leading figure in party circles — played former Vice President Joe Biden, and refused to concede the election.

The result: the threat of secession by the entire West Coast, followed by the possible intervention of the U.S. armed forces:
.....

Nobody's advocating secession, as if that would even be possible. The project explored multiple scenarios that illustrate how easily the electoral process could go off the rails. They also considered the possibilities that swing states with Democratic governors and Republican legislatures could send completing slates of electors to Washington, and that Trump could refuse to leave the White House after a narrow loss. The point is that a lot could happen before the election, and even more could happen afterward.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/07/...-wasnt-pretty/
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Old 6th September 2020, 10:33 PM   #119
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Bubba View Post
In one scenario, John Podesta — the former chair of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, and a leading figure in party circles — played former Vice President Joe Biden, and refused to concede the election.

The result: the threat of secession by the entire West Coast, followed by the possible intervention of the U.S. armed forces:




Democrats contemplating secession and potential civil war after Biden loses in November (according to NY Times)
Democrats have participated in a “war game” in which they considered several possible outcomes of the election. Not only will Biden not concede, but the West Coast (California, Oregon, Washington) will succeed from the union and the official start of a civil war will begin. This is all the master plan of spirit cooker John Podesta.


https://www.pacificpundit.com/2020/0...g-to-ny-times/
An opinion writer on a right wing website with a sketchy reputation has an opinion about an article in the NYT.

No thanks. If you want readers to consider the NYT article, a good starting point is citing the NYT article. What a concept.
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Old 6th September 2020, 10:54 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
History of your posts gives pretty good picture about who you are and what you support.
Indeed it does!

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
You know that no one believes that you are sincere in your "both sides are bad reee" claim, right?
I suspect a Trump supporter trying to hide behind a "both sides bad" shtick.... and failing badly!
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