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Tags donald trump , joe biden , political speculation

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Old 6th September 2020, 08:19 AM   #41
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
There is also the libel lawsuit ongoing based on the accusation that Trump raped someone.

There is nothing Pence or Biden can do to pardon Trump from that.
Well, that is a civil suit rather than a criminal prosecution.
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:25 AM   #42
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What really burns my bacon is that Trump and his cronies might ultimately be allowed to commit muliple acts of TREASON because we as a whole don't want to face the reality that our governing processes are fundamentally broken.
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:45 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I've certainly seen it suggested that it would be a wise move on his part, and entirely in keeping with history.

As for centrism, going by voting record Kamala Harris is further to the left than Bernie Sanders.
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion?
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:58 AM   #44
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion?
It depends a bit on the methodology.

govtrack.us has Sanders slightly left of Harris, https://projects.propublica.org/ goes the other way around.

Of course, Harris had a rather short term in the Senate, so a comparison with Sanders is probably not useful.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:01 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
You don't think red states and red judges might take a different view of what a "legitimate" reason might be? Any precedent set here can and will be used by the other side.
You seem to suggest that any legitimate prosecution of criminal activity by a President once out of office will devolve to purely political, unfounded trials in tit-for-tat actions for all time to come.

Is this a legitimate fear warranting the effective treatment of criminal Presidents as above the Law? How bad must a President be in order to be held to account? Are we to accept that there is no limit?
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:40 AM   #46
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If Trump wins will he pardon Biden for running against him?
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:41 AM   #47
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, that is a civil suit rather than a criminal prosecution.
more importantly, it's not a federal lawsuit.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:46 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Nova Land View Post
Yes.
If he doesn't testify he's guilty of contempt and can be locked up; if he does testify but doesn't testify truthfully he's guilty of perjury and can be locked up; and if he does testify and testifies truthfully a lot of his associates including family members are looking at some serious fines and jail time.
Trump doesn't care about any of his family, he'd gladly kill them all to escape punishment. He cares even less about his lackeys.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:53 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Huh? How did you come to that conclusion?
Primarily from listening to the Opening Arguments episode where they did a deep dive into her career and record. You can listen to it here, if you're interested.

Here are the sources they used:

https://www.progressivepunch.org/sco...er=down&party=

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/mem...port-card/2019

I'm sure there are other sources which would quibble over a couple of percentage points here and there, but that's really besides the point when discussing a claim that Biden's ticket is centrist.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:56 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Trump doesn't care about any of his family, he'd gladly kill them all to escape punishment. He cares even less about his lackeys.
He cares about ******* Ivanka.
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Old 6th September 2020, 10:00 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
You seem to suggest that any legitimate prosecution of criminal activity by a President once out of office will devolve to purely political, unfounded trials in tit-for-tat actions for all time to come.
I don't think I said anything about legitimate. One may well feel a prosecution is legally justified. However, the political reality is that unless his support collapses, the political fallout of getting him on something non-trivial - like Treason would be enormous. He still has mid 40s approval. Look at how much Republican's trust the media. Look at the approval of congress. I am very doubtful that this will be seen as anything other than a political move by the majority of Republicans. Based on that, Democrats feeling it is "legitimate" is irrelevant. The downside will be the same as if it were a politically motivated prosecution.

If the idea is to stop a populist getting in again, it would be a lot easier for the Republicans just to update their primary process to prevent it.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Is this a legitimate fear warranting the effective treatment of criminal Presidents as above the Law? How bad must a President be in order to be held to account? Are we to accept that there is no limit?
That's easy. The President has to be bad enough that enough of the public turn against him that there is minimal political cost from removing him. You've got a trade off between Democracy, Rule of Law, and practicality here.

Last edited by shuttlt; 6th September 2020 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 6th September 2020, 10:14 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
He cares about ******* Ivanka.
He's been doing that since she was thirteen. But even then he'd throw her under the bus if it meant him getting off of a five dollar fine.
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Old 6th September 2020, 10:22 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
The President has to be bad enough that enough of the public turn against him that there is minimal political cost from removing him.

You are incorrect. What you call "bad enough" doesn't matter.

Unfortunately one party realized that if they align themselves with the fact that many Americans have been brainwashed since birth to believe in a creator cult which teaches that human beings have magical ghosts inside of them; therefore early stage abortion destroys a magical ghost. So all that party has to do is hammer home the fact that they are against that and they can literally do anything and still receive 80% support from those people. And, as if they needed an "and", they disingenuously claim that the other party wants to "take all of your guns". (And don't even begin to suggest that they would use fear of the "others"/don't call it racism you racist!)

They can be "bad enough" all they want. The followers will just chalk it up to "there must be a plan, the other side is satanic".


tl;dr We are in a situation where one party has followers that literally believe and are taught in churches across the nation that the other party is satanic.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:10 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
You are incorrect. What you call "bad enough" doesn't matter.

Unfortunately one party realized that if they align themselves with the fact that many Americans have been brainwashed since birth to believe in a creator cult which teaches that human beings have magical ghosts inside of them; therefore early stage abortion destroys a magical ghost. So all that party has to do is hammer home the fact that they are against that and they can literally do anything and still receive 80% support from those people. And, as if they needed an "and", they disingenuously claim that the other party wants to "take all of your guns". (And don't even begin to suggest that they would use fear of the "others"/don't call it racism you racist!)
I'm really not sure that abortion is central to his approval. Be that as it may, Nixon's approval went down to 24% with 60% and rising of the public agreeing he needed to go. So it's clearly possible for a scandle to get a President down to a level where both sides agree they need to go.

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
They can be "bad enough" all they want. The followers will just chalk it up to "there must be a plan, the other side is satanic".
Maybe I should rephrase. You need to convince enough of the population that he is bad enough that he needs to go/be convicted of something big. It may be that he is in fact having nightly séances in which he receives guidance from Hitler. If for whatever reason you fail to convince people that that is the case, then your conviction that he is a horrible monster is no good. Unless you convince enough people that he is so terrible that he should be removed, or convicted of something significant.... the political cost of doing that is too high and it won't happen. That is the practical reality.

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
tl;dr We are in a situation where one party has followers that literally believe and are taught in churches across the nation that the other party is satanic.
It's funny, the view on the right of centre folks I interact with is that they believe the left are misguided/naive and that the left view them as evil. They take the accusations like "anybody who voted for Trump is a racist/knowingly supports racism" as an implication that they are terrible people. Again, it's not important though since the political reality is that unless you convince a good number of them that any significant legal consequence for Trump are not politically motivated, then you'll have a huge number of people convinced that it was a political hit.

What would you think if Trump fitted up Obama and had him carted off to prison? Would that have been a divisive thing to do? Would there be long term consequences for him doing that? They will see it in exactly the same way and the consequences will be the same.

I don't see how to quantify the consequences of doing such a thing. What strategic benefit would there be for the Democrats in opening up all that chaos to go after an already defeated opponent? Why make Trump the centre of attention? Why martyr him? The best punishment for Trump is for him to lose relevance. You'd be making the Biden administration the Trump show act 2.

Last edited by shuttlt; 6th September 2020 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:17 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Biden sent a great big signal with the his statements to the press about is candidcy being about "healing" and "reconciliation". Nowhere in his statements is he talking about seeking justice for the treasonous crimes comitted by the regime.

I could be wrong. I hope I am. But the ticket is solidly Centrist, and the convention only gave progressive voices one real speaker who got short changed on time.

I will really be holding my nose to vote Blue this year. But Trump is on the verge of snuffing out American Democracy altogether and has to be stopped.
Progressives are whiney sad imitations of Communism and their sjw platform is utterly worthless, useless and weak.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:18 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Honestly if Biden wins in November I don't see Trump making it to the end of 2021.

If Trumps wins he'll keep going on pure hate and spite for the rest of his second term.

As to allegations against Biden, the double standards have already been so well established I don't see the Trumpers losing any sleep over the fact that their leader has openly bragged about more stuff then Biden has even be accused of. It won't bother them in the least.
I hope Biden wins, but your mindset revolves around nothing more than Orange Man Bad.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:24 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Progressives are whiney sad imitations of Communism and their sjw platform is utterly worthless, useless and weak.
Is this another (unattributed) Trump tweet? Sure looks like one.

Or is it an attempt at parody? If so leave it to Cain. You are not in his league.

The message here is that progress is a bad thing. Americans should cherish living in the past and maintaining all the long established social injustices where minorities knew their place and stayed in it. MAGA!
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by whoanellie View Post
I suspect you are correct. Pardoning Trump would be consistent with historical precedent (see Nixon, Richard M.) and with Biden's centrist, waiting-for-the-fever-to-break mindset. The selling-point will be that Biden wants to focus on the future and not the past 4 years.
I disagree. I think Biden will want to set a new precedent: that even the president is not above the law. That no president can do any damn thing s/he wants to while in office and expect to walk away from it without consequence at the end of their term with a pardon.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:28 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Is this another (unattributed) Trump tweet? Sure looks like one.

Or is it an attempt at parody? If so leave it to Cain. You are not in his league.

The message here is that progress is a bad thing. Americans should cherish living in the past and maintaining all the long established social injustices where minorities knew their place and stayed in it. MAGA!
And they want to destroy the economy.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:48 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
And they want to destroy the economy.
The minorities?
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The minorities?
the lefties, I never mentioned race, so spare me the race baiting
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:57 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
the lefties, I never mentioned race, so spare me the race baiting
No, I mentioned minorities and you quoted my post. I did not mention lefties. Your post was a non sequitor, and you do seem overly sensitive. Your attempts to rile “progressives“ are not having the effects you desire. Does that upset you?
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:02 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
No, I mentioned minorities and you quoted my post. I did not mention lefties. Your post was a non sequitor, and you do seem overly sensitive. Your attempts to rile “progressives“ are not having the effects you desire. Does that upset you?
Race baiting is simply an indication of your apparent obsession
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:03 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Race baiting is simply an indication of your apparent obsession
With?
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:03 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Biden sent a great big signal with the his statements to the press about is candidcy being about "healing" and "reconciliation". Nowhere in his statements is he talking about seeking justice for the treasonous crimes comitted by the regime.

I could be wrong. I hope I am. But the ticket is solidly Centrist, and the convention only gave progressive voices one real speaker who got short changed on time.

I will really be holding my nose to vote Blue this year. But Trump is on the verge of snuffing out American Democracy altogether and has to be stopped.
I have the same worry about Biden.

I think ultimately in the end Trump will get away with everything scott-free, like he has always done it in the past. He has a long history of messing things up and then just walking away without consequences.

I really feel Biden will try to "normalize" things in this country by capitulating to the Republicans as much as possible. We have seen a preview of this happening at the DNC already, and it doesn't make me hopeful...
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
With?
Race baiting, duh...
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:09 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I have the same worry about Biden.

I think ultimately in the end Trump will get away with everything scott-free, like he has always done it in the past. He has a long history of messing things up and then just walking away without consequences.

I really feel Biden will try to "normalize" things in this country by capitulating to the Republicans as much as possible. We have seen a preview of this happening at the DNC already, and it doesn't make me hopeful...
You will not a liberal in, they dont represent a majority view point, never have.
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:11 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
If Trump wins will he pardon Biden for running against him?
LOL.

Hunter and Hillary will go to jail for sure, Qanon will preside over the cases.
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Race baiting, duh...
Well gee. I guess an obsession would be indicated in these forums by numerous posts on a topic, Perhaps you could identify several of mine in order to demonstrate a pattern. If you can do that you may get me to agree to an obsession that I have not yet realized I have.

I do like the “duh...” though. A definite indicator of a reasoned response.

I do suggest taking this to a new thread though, if you wish to demonstrate my obsession. It has nothing to do with Biden pardoning Trump, or not. Come to think of it, your hyperbolic post about progressives had nothing to do with the topic either. I should not have responded and I am going to drop this sidetrack in this thread. Start a new one. I will see you there.
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Old 6th September 2020, 02:19 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
He has a long history of messing things up and then just walking away without consequences.
He's like an amoral Forest Gump.
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Old 6th September 2020, 02:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You will not a liberal in, they dont represent a majority view point, never have.
Anyone able to parse that? Bonus points if it can be interpreted in any manner relevant to what Boudicca90 wrote.
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Old 6th September 2020, 02:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
He's like an amoral Forest Gump.
Well put.

I've been watching a lot of videos about various dictators and tyrants throughout history and the thing that stuck out to me is they are rarely punished for their crimes. Often they flee and live the remainder of their lives in comfort and peace.

History shows karma doesn't exist.
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:35 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm really not sure that abortion is central to his approval. Be that as it may, Nixon's approval went down to 24% with 60% and rising of the public agreeing he needed to go. So it's clearly possible for a scandle to get a President down to a level where both sides agree they need to go.


Maybe I should rephrase. You need to convince enough of the population that he is bad enough that he needs to go/be convicted of something big. It may be that he is in fact having nightly séances in which he receives guidance from Hitler. If for whatever reason you fail to convince people that that is the case, then your conviction that he is a horrible monster is no good. Unless you convince enough people that he is so terrible that he should be removed, or convicted of something significant.... the political cost of doing that is too high and it won't happen. That is the practical reality.


It's funny, the view on the right of centre folks I interact with is that they believe the left are misguided/naive and that the left view them as evil. They take the accusations like "anybody who voted for Trump is a racist/knowingly supports racism" as an implication that they are terrible people. Again, it's not important though since the political reality is that unless you convince a good number of them that any significant legal consequence for Trump are not politically motivated, then you'll have a huge number of people convinced that it was a political hit.

What would you think if Trump fitted up Obama and had him carted off to prison? Would that have been a divisive thing to do? Would there be long term consequences for him doing that? They will see it in exactly the same way and the consequences will be the same.

I don't see how to quantify the consequences of doing such a thing. What strategic benefit would there be for the Democrats in opening up all that chaos to go after an already defeated opponent? Why make Trump the centre of attention? Why martyr him? The best punishment for Trump is for him to lose relevance. You'd be making the Biden administration the Trump show act 2.
Why would a majority approval of the populace be needed before initiating an otherwise legally justified prosecution?

That would imply that Justice is hostage to popular referendum.

If, say, Trump raped and then murdered an intern inside the WH, left sufficient evidence to warrant a criminal investigation, but his various and sundry enablers managed to convince the ~40% that make up his base that it's a frame-up. Once Donnie leaves office, is he still immune just because enough credulous followers might raise a stink? Seems rather like Lady Justice not being blind, and there being very clearly a different kind of law for some--or one.

Some gangsters of the '30s enjoyed no small sympathy and even support from the larger community, but this didn't stop the Law from vigorously attempting to hold the bad guys to account. This should hold at the largest scale. Once objective, legal process is discarded, trust is lost and the system is broken.

That some fraction of the people, by don't of ill informed passion alone, should have the power to keep a criminal free of consequences, and thereby thwart both the long arm of the law (singularly important in its own right) and the will of the majority is a form of mob rule that bespeaks of a morally weakened State.
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:49 PM   #74
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I have the same worry about Biden.

I think ultimately in the end Trump will get away with everything scott-free, like he has always done it in the past. He has a long history of messing things up and then just walking away without consequences.

I really feel Biden will try to "normalize" things in this country by capitulating to the Republicans as much as possible. We have seen a preview of this happening at the DNC already, and it doesn't make me hopeful...
Is whether or not Trump gets away with "it" really the most important thing? What cost in terms of slitting the country further would be acceptable to make sure he's punished?
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:54 PM   #75
Lurch
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
You will not a liberal in, they dont represent a majority view point, never have.
You might want to review the level of support for progressive, liberal policies, and the desire for societal progress, among USAians.

I mean, consider gay marriage, and the acceptance of gays in the military. Only a very short time ago this was heretical to contemplate.

A majority want a health care system nearer to that of all the other developed nations.

A majority desire racial equality. Or at least comity.

It's a minority who desire to remain fixed in the past, fearful of change. But in the long march of humanity through history, the general, inexorable course has been toward progress. Such hiccups as Hitlerism and Trumpism are brief, backward steps. As long as Man doesn't really pull the plug with catastrophic climate wreckage, or a global nuclear war, the expectation of this social creature's further evolution is in the main to betterment.
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:57 PM   #76
Boudicca90
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Is whether or not Trump gets away with "it" really the most important thing? What cost in terms of slitting the country further would be acceptable to make sure he's punished?
The country is already split, and the split is going to get worse regardless.

I'm of the opinion that the reconciliation during Reconstruction was a horrible idea. It just kicked the can down the road and now we are dealing with the consequences. This is a fight that has been brewing for a while, even before Trump, and we need to nip it in the bud now.

The same will happen if we try to make peace with the far-right in this country, so we need to make Trump an example by thoroughly destroying him.
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Old 6th September 2020, 04:10 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
You might want to review the level of support for progressive, liberal policies, and the desire for societal progress, among USAians.

I mean, consider gay marriage, and the acceptance of gays in the military. Only a very short time ago this was heretical to contemplate.

A majority want a health care system nearer to that of all the other developed nations.

A majority desire racial equality. Or at least comity.

It's a minority who desire to remain fixed in the past, fearful of change. But in the long march of humanity through history, the general, inexorable course has been toward progress. Such hiccups as Hitlerism and Trumpism are brief, backward steps. As long as Man doesn't really pull the plug with catastrophic climate wreckage, or a global nuclear war, the expectation of this social creature's further evolution is in the main to betterment.
Brief, but expensive in money and lives.

This so called hiccup could be more serious than you imagine. Authoritarian governments are on the rise. Democracy was real for a while in Russia. It's as dead there today as it was under Stalin. I'm afraid Americans don't really care much about it. They are willing to follow the grifter.
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Old 6th September 2020, 04:16 PM   #78
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Why would a majority approval of the populace be needed before initiating an otherwise legally justified prosecution?
Technically you clearly don't need it. Practically speaking, will the Democrats want the current level of tension and division running through Biden's time in office? Isn't the whole point of Biden that it will be a return to business as usual? Putting Trump away while he still has anything like his current support is just going to keep everything crazy.

This would be the effect on Republicans of going after Trump, if he maintains his popularity, out of office:
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I AGREE


Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
That would imply that Justice is hostage to popular referendum.
It could be that the politicians and back room deal makers who make these decisions are moral absolutists and will "let justice be done, though the heavens fall", but I really don't think that they are.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
If, say, Trump raped and then murdered an intern inside the WH, left sufficient evidence to warrant a criminal investigation, but his various and sundry enablers managed to convince the ~40% that make up his base that it's a frame-up. Once Donnie leaves office, is he still immune just because enough credulous followers might raise a stink? Seems rather like Lady Justice not being blind, and there being very clearly a different kind of law for some--or one.
Well, that would be a very difficult situation. I have been talking about convicting him, rather than an investigation. If 40% of the population think he's innocent, what is going to happen at the trial? He'll be let off.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Some gangsters of the '30s enjoyed no small sympathy and even support from the larger community, but this didn't stop the Law from vigorously attempting to hold the bad guys to account. This should hold at the largest scale. Once objective, legal process is discarded, trust is lost and the system is broken.
There is no objective legal process. You have to persuade a jury. You have already said that 40% of the population think he's innocent. How are you going to convict him? Will all Republicans be excluded from this fair and objective Jury? If they come to power can they then convict your guy having excluded all Democrats from the Jury?

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
That some fraction of the people, by don't of ill informed passion alone, should have the power to keep a criminal free of consequences, and thereby thwart both the long arm of the law (singularly important in its own right) and the will of the majority is a form of mob rule that bespeaks of a morally weakened State.
Better to have him stay free than convict somebody that 40% of the population think is innocent because you are super certain he is guilty.
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Old 6th September 2020, 04:16 PM   #79
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Brief, but expensive in money and lives.

This so called hiccup could be more serious than you imagine. Authoritarian governments are on the rise. Democracy was real for a while in Russia. It's as dead there today as it was under Stalin.
I'm afraid Americans those who vote for Trump don't really care much about it. They are willing to follow the grifter.
FTFY
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Old 6th September 2020, 04:30 PM   #80
shuttlt
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Originally Posted by The J is for Jeenyus View Post
Yesterday:



Today:




The walkback has begun.
OK. Maybe one shouldn't deal in absolutes. I just don't see this happening. What is going to happen that is going to cause Trump's approval to drop down to next to nothing? It could happen that he personally strangles greta thunberg in the rose garden in front of the worlds press. I just really don't think something like that is likely. Maybe somebody has a tape of him on a secret trip to Moscow receiving instructions from Putin. I doubt it.

You aren't going to get him unless he becomes so unpopular that getting him stops being a political issue.
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