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Tags Coronavirus , Coronavirus conspiracies , donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 9th September 2020, 12:36 PM   #41
Ranb
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm going with: Woodward is an ass for waiting until his book release.
Trump already publicly downplayed covid-19, then declared a national emergency, then said it would go away magically. This latest from Woodard is just more of the same. Trumpsters will not believe it and I don't think he will be impeached over it.

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Old 9th September 2020, 12:37 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Sure, if it were just another affair, his supporters might not care. But there has to be some point at which they will care, right?
No. There's isn't. They'll follow that bastard into the gates of Hell just to watch the liberals get triggered by it.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:37 PM   #43
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Yeah, he’s a murder. You know what though? This doesn’t shock me at all. This is Trump. I would argue there are no shocking or scandalous revelations about Trump - that would imply there are things that are disreputable to be revealed about him.

What would really shock me is a revelation that Trump has an actual friend of that he did something self-sacrificing for someone. But this? Negligent murder? Totally Trump.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:39 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No. There's isn't. They'll follow that bastard into the gates of Hell just to watch the liberals get triggered by it.

Okay, so are you buying the matches, or do you want me to pick them up?
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Above it, for sure. As bad as his Ukraine BS was in terms of illegality, it ultimately had little impact on the lives of those who need to be convinced to vote against him. To them, it was just one more political scandal involving foreigners with hard to pronounce names, that they couldn't keep straight from one day to the next.

But this hits them all directly. Lots have gotten sick, some have died, more of them know people who've died. Millions have been put out of work or lost their businesses because of this.

Yeah, but it was the response to the pandemic that did that. By minimising the risk, Trump was protecting his supporters, or at least the ones still able to vote. Right? Dead men cast no votes.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:45 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Sure, if it were just another affair, his supporters might not care. But there has to be some point at which they will care, right? What if he was found having a homosexual affair? Do you still think his supporters would vote for him?

If we're really at the point that they really don't care about him murdering thousands upon thousands of Americans, we might as well just burn down the country and be done with it.
True. I don't want to use the terms like "enemies of the people" that Trump throws around, but anyone still supporting Trump at this point is either wilfully ignorant of what he's done (a lot of cases), or... I don't know. Because either they don't know how bad Trump is, or... they don't care. Or they still support him. That's really the only possibilities that exist. Trumpkins don't know, or don't care.

That people can see this news item, with audio recordings and everything, and still come barging into the discussion to yell "bubutwhatabout--" or "bothsidesbad!!" speaks volumes. I'm not sure about what, but I can't imagine it's good.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
Yeah, he’s a murder. You know what though? This doesn’t shock me at all. This is Trump. I would argue there are no shocking or scandalous revelations about Trump - that would imply there are things that are disreputable to be revealed about him.

What would really shock me is a revelation that Trump has an actual friend of that he did something self-sacrificing for someone. But this? Negligent murder? Totally Trump.

A revelation that Trump has an actual friend would surprise me.
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Last edited by Mojo; 9th September 2020 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:49 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
A revelation that Trump has an actual friend would surprise me.

Let's be clear - the only surprising thing about this is that Trump was stupid enough to say this to a reporter that he knew was recording him.


I mean, I knew Trump was an idiot, but there's stupid and then there's stupid, ya know? I'm actually a little shocked that he's actually stupider than I thought he was.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:50 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Sure, if it were just another affair, his supporters might not care. But there has to be some point at which they will care, right? What if he was found having a homosexual affair? Do you still think his supporters would vote for him?
Without question. He's already been accused in a court filing of having beaten and raped a 13-year-old girl. One of his ex-wives described him raping her and only withdrew the accusation so that she could cash out of their divorce proceedings. If his last name was Clinton and he had (D) after his name, there would be no end to Republicans holding hearings about his sexual peccadillos.
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If we're really at the point that they really don't care about him murdering thousands upon thousands of Americans, we might as well just burn down the country and be done with it.
We are at that point. We've been at that point for months. The evidence about COVID-19 has been available, Trump's response has been criminally negligent, and he is still defended and supported by the vast majority of his party.

While most sensible people will see Woodwards revelations and recordings as unimaginable admissions of callous disregard for human life, Trump supporters will call them "4-D chess" and hashtag "#Trump2020 #MAGA."

Last edited by Babbylonian; 9th September 2020 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:52 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
We are at that point. We've been at that point for months. The evidence about COVID-19 has been available, Trump's response has been criminally negligent, and he is still defended and supported by the vast majority of his party.

While most sensible people will see Woodwards revelations and recordings as unimaginable admissions of callous disregard for human life, Trump supporters will call them "4-D chess" and hashtag "#Trump2020 #MAGA."


So you're buying the matches, then.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:54 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So you're buying the matches, then.
I've gotten a little old to be throwing Molotov cocktails, but ask me again November 4th.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:57 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Let's be clear - the only surprising thing about this is that Trump was stupid enough to say this to a reporter that he knew was recording him.


I mean, I knew Trump was an idiot, but there's stupid and then there's stupid, ya know? I'm actually a little shocked that he's actually stupider than I thought he was.

Itís not stupidity so much as arrogance. He thinks he can get away with it. He may even be right.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:58 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Either you believe in the standard Horatius put forth in the OP, or you don't.

Horatius has the honesty to apply that standard evenly. You don't.
Classic tactic to try and put me on the defensive for a position I never took.

My post pointed out that, instead of addressing what TRUMP did, which was horrific, you instead misdirected to what WOODWARD DIDN'T DO. It's your classic reaction to avoid criticizing Trump.
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Old 9th September 2020, 12:58 PM   #54
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It looks like all leaders are guilty according to the people of coo coo land
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:01 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I've gotten a little old to be throwing Molotov cocktails, but ask me again November 4th.


Poorly aimed fireworks seem to be doing a good job in California, just sayin'.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:08 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think you need an emoji to read the sarcasm in that post.

You underestimate the stupidity and/or the disingenuousness of Chump worshipers. I've heard people say worse, and mean every word of it too. Not knowing the political leanings of someone saying something like this, would make this kind of thing the perfect Poe.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:14 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
You underestimate the stupidity and/or the disingenuousness of Chump worshipers. I've heard people say worse, and mean every word of it too. Not knowing the political leanings of someone saying something like this, would make this kind of thing the perfect Poe.
Unless one knows Cain, you're absolutely right. I thought Cain was serious when I first joined ISF until someone put me straight.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:19 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Yeah, but it was the response to the pandemic that did that. By minimising the risk, Trump was protecting his supporters, or at least the ones still able to vote. Right? Dead men cast no votes.
That's right. If we had stayed open so 100's of millions got infected, health services became overwhelmed and millions died, the economy would have been fine and nobody would have become unemployed.

It's all those people who stayed home rather than risk killing themselves and others who are responsible for the unemployment. What a bunch of selfish pricks they are, not putting their lives on the line for our Holy Economy!


Originally Posted by rockysmith76
That doesnt fit the definition of murder, negligent homicide perhaps, not murder.
Correct.

Trump - like all presidents before him - had to make a tough decision which would have resulted in people dying no matter what path he took. If he is guilty of murder then so is every president who sent troops into a war zone, or who didn't send them in when people would die without our protection. And people also died due to economic downturns, so any president who deliberately made a decision which would obviously damage the economy (eg. Bill Clinton signing the GLBA) is also guilty of murder!

If we held presidents to the same standard as ordinary citizens they would not be able to do their job without risking prosecution. This is why the president has to be 'above the law' for all but 'high crimes and misdemeanors', and why impeachment or the ballot box should be the only redress. If you don't want a murderer in the White House, don't put him there!
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:28 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
That's right. If we had stayed open so 100's of millions got infected, health services became overwhelmed and millions died, the economy would have been fine and nobody would have become unemployed.

It's all those people who stayed home rather than risk killing themselves and others who are responsible for the unemployment. What a bunch of selfish pricks they are, not putting their lives on the line for our Holy Economy!

Not only that, but if those selfish old people had not stayed home, had gone out, gotten sick and died, the younger people would have been sitting pretty for Social Security and Medicare when they turn 65, too! All those old people now would be dead and not draining SS and Medicare.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:31 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Unless one knows Cain, you're absolutely right. I thought Cain was serious when I first joined ISF until someone put me straight.

Yeah, Poe neatly executed, in that case.

What's difficult to believe is how Chump gets people to dribble out imbecile justifications and support for every idiotic and blatantly self-serving thing he does and says. I mean, how do you GET to such sheer stupidity on the part of the Chump cultists, short of breeding them for stupid? After all, with that kind of a magical ability to have people support every ******* thing you do or say, who needs such boring things as actual performance on the job, if only there're enough such zombie followers?
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:37 PM   #61
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The sunk cost fallacy.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:38 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
We are at that point. We've been at that point for months. The evidence about COVID-19 has been available, Trump's response has been criminally negligent, and he is still defended and supported by the vast majority of his party.
And every one of them is just as guilty as Trump. Many of them deliberately voted for Trump just to **** liberals, and some may even have left documentary evidence of their desire. If someone hires a hitman to kill someone they don't like, they are just as guilty of murder as the actual killer. So if 62,984,828 people hire a hitman...
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:39 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.
As a patriot, Woodward was obligated to release the book when it would inflict the most harm on Trump.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:45 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Yeah, Poe neatly executed, in that case.

What's difficult to believe is how Chump gets people to dribble out imbecile justifications and support for every idiotic and blatantly self-serving thing he does and says. I mean, how do you GET to such sheer stupidity on the part of the Chump cultists, short of breeding them for stupid? After all, with that kind of a magical ability to have people support every ******* thing you do or say, who needs such boring things as actual performance on the job, if only there're enough such zombie followers?
Ya got me. I don't get it either.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Not only that, but if those selfish old people had not stayed home, had gone out, gotten sick and died, the younger people would have been sitting pretty for Social Security and Medicare when they turn 65, too! All those old people now would be dead and not draining SS and Medicare.
There's also the massive boost to the healthcare and pharmaceutical industries to consider. So many broken windows to profit from!

It will be years before we can get a measure of the true cost of this pandemic. Sadly, it almost certainly will not take into account the human cost. Already we have economists holding up GDP as a measure of the damage, as if that number has any relationship to the effect on people.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:56 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
... If we held presidents to the same standard as ordinary citizens they would not be able to do their job without risking prosecution. This is why the president has to be 'above the law' for all but 'high crimes and misdemeanors', and why impeachment or the ballot box should be the only redress. If you don't want a murderer in the White House, don't put him there!

That makes sense, I guess.

Although, I'd say, if the results were exceptionally horrendous -- as they are now -- then it might make sense to put their intentions under the laser.

If you've caused thousands of clearly avoidable deaths, whether in an ill-conceived war or a botched-up pandemic management, then it might make sense to subject them to explaining clearly how and why. Sure, if the means justify the ends, fine. Or, if not that, if it's something that's, well, an honest mistake, honest incompetence -- if I may call it that -- I guess that too, like you say, should get a pass.

But if a President has no way to explain a catastrophically mishandled pandemic (or war, or law and order issue, that literally cost thousands of lives), then, if they have no better way to coherently explain it than by admitting 'I wanted to keep my ass on this chair no matter the cost', then that should be punishable by law, it seems to me.

Great power, great responsibility. If that elemenary equation isn't instinctively evident to some sociopath, then the prospect of legal redress later on might alert them to that responsibility.
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Old 9th September 2020, 01:58 PM   #67
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OMG. Sen John Kennedy (R LA) is on CNN right now doing the Defend Trump Shuffle. Disgusting. He starts off with "These 'gotcha' books don't really interest me." He says that he can only go by his "personal experience" and that he got what he needed from the Trump administration in LA once it hit. He then tried to muddy the water by going off on some stupid irrelevant side path in order to distract from the real issue. Never mind that Trump knew way back in early Feb. what was coming and could have prepared us by telling us to wear masks, social distance, wash our hand, use sanitizer, etc to avoid spreading the virus etc.
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Old 9th September 2020, 02:17 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
As a patriot, Woodward was obligated to release the book when it would inflict the most harm on Trump.
Exactly.

Investigators often spend years gathering enough evidence to take down a mob boss, and during that time he could be ordering dozens of hits. But they keep the evidence under wraps until they are ready to prosecute.

Had Woodward released his book earlier it would have been too early to affect the election. We saw with impeachment that no evidence would be enough to make the government take action, and that the only way to get rid of Trump is to vote him out. But I suspect that now is still too early. By November Trump will have convinced many people that his performance wasn't that bad, or even that he did a 'great' job! We need an 'October surprise' to take the wind out of his sails at the right moment.
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Old 9th September 2020, 02:32 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Exactly.

Investigators often spend years gathering enough evidence to take down a mob boss, and during that time he could be ordering dozens of hits. But they keep the evidence under wraps until they are ready to prosecute.

Had Woodward released his book earlier it would have been too early to affect the election. We saw with impeachment that no evidence would be enough to make the government take action, and that the only way to get rid of Trump is to vote him out. But I suspect that now is still too early. By November Trump will have convinced many people that his performance wasn't that bad, or even that he did a 'great' job! We need an 'October surprise' to take the wind out of his sails at the right moment.

No we don't. We need a constant stream of negativity between now and election day. There's is no "right moment"for that one thing that will finally get Trump. Just keep throwing **** at him.
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Old 9th September 2020, 02:36 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
No we don't. We need a constant stream of negativity between now and election day. There's is no "right moment"for that one thing that will finally get Trump. Just keep throwing **** at him.
This!!!! 100 percent This!!!!! Professional political people tell their people to stay on message for a reason. You tell people what they already know over and over again. You have to repeat the message enough that the association just pops into people's heads and they complete the sentence for you.
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Old 9th September 2020, 02:41 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
But if a President has no way to explain a catastrophically mishandled pandemic (or war, or law and order issue, that literally cost thousands of lives), then, if they have no better way to coherently explain it than by admitting 'I wanted to keep my ass on this chair no matter the cost', then that should be punishable by law, it seems to me.
The problem with that criteria is that one person's 'keep my ass on this chair no matter the cost' is another's 'take whatever action is required to do the job'. With half the country disagreeing with whatever course the president takes, he would constantly be under threat of removal by the other side. And Republicans would do it just for wearing a tan suit.

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Great power, great responsibility. If that elementary equation isn't instinctively evident to some sociopath, then the prospect of legal redress later on might alert them to that responsibility.
Great responsibility, great power. You can't expect one without giving the other.

Sociopaths generally don't care about consequences 'later on'. They figure they will cross that bridge when they come to it - a policy which has worked very well for Trump so far. The mistaken idea that sociopaths will take consequences into account is one reason we are in this mess. How many thought that Trump wouldn't dare do 'x' because it would it would hurt him, and then he did it anyway?
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Old 9th September 2020, 02:42 PM   #72
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Won't work. Arguments don't matter to deaf. Trump's audience only listens to Trump. Trump himself must either admit mistake, or slip and attack his supporters.
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Old 9th September 2020, 02:56 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
No we don't. We need a constant stream of negativity between now and election day. There's is no "right moment"for that one thing that will finally get Trump. Just keep throwing **** at him.
Don't worry, we will be getting that. With Trump, we can't not get that.

But a constant stream won't be enough, because Trump's side has their own constant stream that will wear ours down. I guarantee - barring some surprise - that by the end of October Trump's ratings will have improved to the point where he is almost neck-in-neck with Biden. Why? Firstly because people will be sick of all the negativity. Then Covid-19 cases and deaths will probably be (at least appearing to be) going down, with a vaccine promised (if you vote for Trump!) and the economy will look better than expected. This will give many people an excuse to a/ not bother voting for 'unnecessary' change, or b/ justify voting for Trump again.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:10 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The problem with that criteria is that one person's 'keep my ass on this chair no matter the cost' is another's 'take whatever action is required to do the job'. With half the country disagreeing with whatever course the president takes, he would constantly be under threat of removal by the other side. And Republicans would do it just for wearing a tan suit.

Great responsibility, great power. You can't expect one without giving the other.

Sociopaths generally don't care about consequences 'later on'. They figure they will cross that bridge when they come to it - a policy which has worked very well for Trump so far. The mistaken idea that sociopaths will take consequences into account is one reason we are in this mess. How many thought that Trump wouldn't dare do 'x' because it would it would hurt him, and then he did it anyway?

I imagine people probably aren't necessarily either the one or the other. They probably occupy a continuum, with some/most, at one end, instinctively inclined to keep away from causing harm -- or at least, an extraordinary amount of harm -- to other people, even if following this policy hurts their self interest; and, at the other end, a few out-and-out crazies that'd follow their own narrow and immediate self-interest no matter what. The former won't need "legal redress", while the latter wouldn't worry about it, at least not until later.

But I imagine there'd be quite a few in-betweens who might have no compunction in causing harm to others, but who might think long and hard before risking others' lives, if they knew that they might find themselves sitting in prison as a result a few years down the line.

Would this make the job more stressful? Yes and no. To a sane person,, the prospect of taking a decision that might affect thousands of lives is already stressful enough; and to those, like Trump, playing with others' lives isn't itself a source of stress, well, that's exactly the point. That stress will do them good, keep them in check.

So is Trump a rabid crazy who'll blunder on no matter what, or is he crazy-with-a-dash-of-sane who is mindful enough of consequences when his own fat ugly ass might be on the line? That I'm afraid I don't know!

Last edited by Chanakya; 9th September 2020 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:19 PM   #75
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Um wow. Turn on "The Situation Room". I hope Blitzer has a binder or something to protect his modesty. He's interviewing people about the excerpts from Woodward's new book. He seems really excited.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:21 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Won't work. Arguments don't matter to deaf. Trump's audience only listens to Trump. Trump himself must either admit mistake, or slip and attack his supporters.
I'm so sick of this argument. We call them swing states for a reason. That reason would be that there are key voters who "Swing" their vote between parties. If they didn't, we'd call those states something else.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:24 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
What's difficult to believe is how Chump gets people to dribble out imbecile justifications and support for every idiotic and blatantly self-serving thing he does and says. I mean, how do you GET to such sheer stupidity on the part of the Chump cultists, short of breeding them for stupid?
You don't understand the mentality of a Deplorable or the values they hold dear. They don't want the same things we want.

To a large extent, Trump is giving them what they want. What could Trump do to make the cultists disown him? Not much really - just admit his mistakes, be honest about his beliefs, and become a caring person who abhors racism and sexism and wants everyone to get along. Trumpkins hate that - it would be a betrayal of everything they desire.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:26 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Both sides suck
Sure, both sides suck but both sides don't tickle the sack and take a facial. Only the Trump side is all in on it.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:39 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm so sick of this argument. We call them swing states for a reason. That reason would be that there are key voters who "Swing" their vote between parties. If they didn't, we'd call those states something else.
I think any reasonable person has already swung.
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Old 9th September 2020, 03:55 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm so sick of this argument. We call them swing states for a reason. That reason would be that there are key voters who "Swing" their vote between parties. If they didn't, we'd call those states something else.
This.
There's more kinds of people in the world than "people who definitely don't support Trump" and "people who support Trump and are immune to any and all arguments against him". As you say, the most contested states are called swing states for a reason.
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