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Tags crypto-archaeology , Noah's Ark

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Old 28th April 2010, 01:24 AM   #121
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Yes only heaps bigger - and potentially less dangerous to carry around


Genesis 6:15 in the Bible tells us the Ark's dimensions were at least 135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high
We have several threads on this. Perhaps someone have the heart to merge them?

Anyway, on shape: If you built a box of these dimensions, without using impossibly heavy dimensions of timber (I'm talking metre thick beams), and tried to float it, the bottom and sides would soon cave in from the water pressure. Streamlining is not the only reason the traditional ship's hull is rounded in shape. And you would still need an inner supporting structure. The idea that Noah just build a sort of big house, and it floated away when the waters rose, is simply ignorant (a myth made be desert tribes). To sail a huge heavy load on open sea for months requires a very sturdy and well-built regular ship.

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 01:26 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
The Daily Mirror report on this topic mentions that the wood used in this structure does not match the biblical account.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-sto...5875-22217374/
That's also mentioned in the SCMP original article. Gopher wood (bible) versus some type of cedar (sample). They don't seem to care about that discrepancy. It seems that the bible is to be taken literally when it is convenient to take it literally and to be reinterpreted when it has inconvenient little mismatches.
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Old 28th April 2010, 01:48 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
We have several threads on this. Perhaps someone have the heart to merge them?

Anyway, on shape: If you built a box of these dimensions, without using impossibly heavy dimensions of timber (I'm talking metre thick beams), and tried to float it, the bottom and sides would soon cave in from the water pressure. Streamlining is not the only reason the traditional ship's hull is rounded in shape. And you would still need an inner supporting structure. The idea that Noah just build a sort of big house, and it floated away when the waters rose, is simply ignorant (a myth made be desert tribes). To sail a huge heavy load on open sea for months requires a very sturdy and well-built regular ship.

Hans
All this is very true, but the fundies will just wave their hands and say that God gave Noah some miraculous help.

Why God instructed Noah to build a big impossible box and fill it with an impossible collection of animals, when He could have just saved them all miraculously anyway, is anybody's guess.
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:14 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Well, if they did find something there resembling an ark the explanation would probably be that it was someone trying to escape a local flood. You know, the story about the Meditertaenian rushing into the black sea.
(I'm guessing you don't use a spell-checker because you think it is something to do with witches? Anyway...)

A local flood is hardly likely to flood anywhere to the HEIGHT of 4000 meters (that's about 12,000 feet in the old money) above sea level.

The Mediterranean flood into the Black Sea was a heck of a long way from Mt Ararat in western Turkey, over a mountain range or two in between, and it drained one as it filled the other (so the water levels would have gone down, on average).

The number and scale of the astonishingly massive technical problems that poor old (drunkard) Noah had to overcome to single-handedly build a seagoing tub as per the biblical specifications are, frankly, ridiculous. The subsequent problems of animal dispersion post the ark landing mean the idea is preposterously stupid. I'll say just one word to shoot the whole thing down: koalas.

Unless, of course, the story of Noah was merely an allegory...
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:17 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
We have several threads on this. Perhaps someone have the heart to merge them?

Anyway, on shape: If you built a box of these dimensions, without using impossibly heavy dimensions of timber (I'm talking metre thick beams), and tried to float it, the bottom and sides would soon cave in from the water pressure. Streamlining is not the only reason the traditional ship's hull is rounded in shape. And you would still need an inner supporting structure. The idea that Noah just build a sort of big house, and it floated away when the waters rose, is simply ignorant (a myth made be desert tribes). To sail a huge heavy load on open sea for months requires a very sturdy and well-built regular ship.

Hans
C"mon Hans bringing logic and science into the debate is just soooo unfair.
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:27 AM   #126
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I particularly enjoy the line of thinking that it can't be the remains of a building, because (they claim) no others have been found above 11,000ft in the area ... so therefore it must be ... a boat.

Yeah, that makes sense!
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:33 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I particularly enjoy the line of thinking that it can't be the remains of a building, because (they claim) no others have been found above 11,000ft in the area ... so therefore it must be ... a boat.

Yeah, that makes sense!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Paz

Quote:
... As it grows, La Paz climbs the hills, resulting in varying elevations from 3,000 meters to 4,100 meters (9,840 ft to 13,450 ft)...
FTW.
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:36 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Well, if they did find something there resembling an ark the explanation would probably be that it was someone trying to escape a local flood. You know, the story about the Meditertaenian rushing into the black sea.
As already noted, that event would not put it at 4000m on Mt Ararat. Also, judging from the pictures, what they found bears no resemblance to a ship.

And what is your take on the carbon dating?

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:37 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
I value truth and justice over superstition, which I regard as the enemy of mankind.

So sue me.
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???

You assume that I think it really is, but what I'm doing is leaving open the possibility that it could be. Of course, in all likelihood it is not, but from a small article there isn't enough evidence to blow this off completely, as you did from the get-go. That's what I meant by being dismissive rather than skeptical, which so many value so greatly here. Believe it or not we're on the same side.
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:37 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
I don't reject diversification via speciation if that's what you are referring to. It happens all the time. Also, please keep in mind that if two animals produce viable offspring they are the same species. If there differences are too significant then the offspring will be sterile. Domesticated dogs can all interbreed. So speciation has not yet occured among them.
I would love to challenge you on this, but it would be a derail of this thread.

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:43 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Nursedan View Post
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???

...
I'm not Complexity, and he will answer or not if he wants, but I'd just like to say this: This is just as likely to be Noah's Ark as it is to be the Elven Ship that carried Frodo and Bilbo to The Undying Lands.
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:45 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Nursedan View Post
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???
If it was, in point of actual fact, a boat. A REAL boat of some sort. Or a section thereof. At least to start with.

The photos look to be what appears suspiciously like a crude timber slab hut for shepherds to avoid the winter snows. And a bunch of HK creduloids.
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:45 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I particularly enjoy the line of thinking that it can't be the remains of a building, because (they claim) no others have been found above 11,000ft in the area ... so therefore it must be ... a boat.

Yeah, that makes sense!

That struck me as funny too, mind you they always seem to be finding boats on that particular mountain!

I know it's the Sun, but wasn't this story four weeks late?
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:47 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Nursedan View Post
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???

You assume that I think it really is, but what I'm doing is leaving open the possibility that it could be. Of course, in all likelihood it is not, but from a small article there isn't enough evidence to blow this off completely, as you did from the get-go. That's what I meant by being dismissive rather than skeptical, which so many value so greatly here. Believe it or not we're on the same side.
No we're not. You want to leave open the possibility that pigs can fly, and call it skepticism.

- There is no sign that there was ever a global flood.

- It is not even possible for there to be a global flood, leaving an ark at 4000m.

- The ark legend is impossible because you can't feed and tend such a Zoo on a relatively small wooden ship. You also can't collect and disperse the animals before and after the flood.

- The construction of such a large wooden vessel (that needs to be sea-going) is a formidable challenge, and would require numerous extremely heavy structural timbers. All they have found is planks and light dimension beams.

- The dating is incompatible with Biblical chronology.

The possibility that this is indeed Noah's ark or even a ship of any kind is so negligible that it can be dismissed.

Instead, energy should be directed at finding out what it actually is they have found. - Unless, of course, if it is simply all fake, which is a much more likely possibility that it being the ark.

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:52 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No we're not. You want to leave open the possibility that pigs can fly, and call it skepticism.

- There is no sign that there was ever a global flood.

- It is not even possible for there to be a global flood, leaving an ark at 4000m.

- The ark legend is impossible because you can't feed and tend such a Zoo on a relatively small wooden ship. You also can't collect and disperse the animals before and after the flood.

- The construction of such a large wooden vessel (that needs to be sea-going) is a formidable challenge, and would require numerous extremely heavy structural timbers. All they have found is planks and light dimension beams.

- The dating is incompatible with Biblical chronology.

The possibility that this is indeed Noah's ark or even a ship of any kind is so negligible that it can be dismissed.

Instead, energy should be directed at finding out what it actually is they have found. - Unless, of course, if it is simply all fake, which is a much more likely possibility that it being the ark.

Hans
Alright, fine. I guess there's no possibility that this could be Noah's Ark. None whatsoever. Case closed.

I choose to make up my mind after compelling evidence is shown, not before. Maybe I don't fully understand the concept, then, of skepticism.
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Old 28th April 2010, 02:57 AM   #136
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Maybe you don't understand the concept of evidence.
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Old 28th April 2010, 03:16 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Nursedan View Post
Why won't you answer my other question? As someone who has a strong opinion, I'd like to know, for the third time - is there anything that would convince you that this is in fact Noah's Ark???
Speaking for myself, both of the below:

1) Any sensible evidence that there ever existed a Noah's ark in the first place.

2) Any sign that this was once a ship.

Correction: That would not convince me, but it would make me consider the possibility.

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 03:31 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Not as much as my head hurts when I read your evolutionist drivel. : )
Better get your own act together first:

Quote:
I don't reject diversification via speciation if that's what you are referring to. It happens all the time. Also, please keep in mind that if two animals produce viable offspring they are the same species. If there differences are too significant then the offspring will be sterile. Domesticated dogs can all interbreed. So speciation has not yet occured among them.
However, on the apologist website you link to they say:

Quote:
The Canidae (canine) family includes about 14 genera of dog like animals. These include the coyote, dog, wolf, jackal, etc. The ark did not have to contain the hundreds of species of canines that make up this group. In reality, these were all represented by a few "kind." These "kind" would then produce all the animals that make up the Canidae family. For example all of the hundreds of varieties of domestic pigeons that have all been produced originated from one species, the wild rock pigeon (Columbia livia).
So, your fellow creationists DO (albeit no doubt involuntarily) accept speciation.

- Talk about drivel....

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 03:37 AM   #139
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It seems to me that any wooden artifact found at altitude on Ararat is trumpeted as "a piece of Noah's Ark!!!1111!!eleventy!!!!". Good for the tourist trade I suppose.
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Old 28th April 2010, 03:40 AM   #140
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Here's my prediction: they haven't found anything, not even the structure they claim and show photos of, where they say they found it, and all the "proof" will by this time next year be long forgotten on the list of previous "find"s that were failures.
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Old 28th April 2010, 03:40 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Nursedan View Post
Alright, fine. I guess there's no possibility that this could be Noah's Ark. None whatsoever. Case closed.
Wrong. There is possibility. However, it is so small that we need to devote our lives to better subjects. Case closed pending more convincing evidence.

Quote:
I choose to make up my mind after compelling evidence is shown, not before. Maybe I don't fully understand the concept, then, of skepticism.
Maybe not. Or maybe you do. Try this: I claim that Danish farmers have developed a race of pigs that are invisible, can fly, eat practically nothing, and still produce twice the amount of meat compared to ordinary pigs.

Will you wait for the evidence before making up your mind on this story?

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 03:53 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Not as much as my head hurts when I read your evolutionist drivel. : )
Except that your concept of the ark (as outlined in your link) would require accelerated evolution to pull off.

So which? Evolution or no evolution?
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Old 28th April 2010, 04:37 AM   #143
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Looks like it could be some kind of old mining site.
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Old 28th April 2010, 04:50 AM   #144
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really though what a load of bullcrap. this is the same claim made in 2007 when no one paid any attention, its taken them three years to find a lab that would do carbon dating (alarm bells) and they have presented zero evidence that the wood they analysed came from anywhere significant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searche...ains_of_Ararat
wiki even has this info
Quote:
In 2007, a joint Turkish-Hong Kong expedition including members of Noah's Ark Ministries International claimed to find an unusual cave with fossilized wooden walls on Mount Ararat, well above the vegetation line. This 2007 expedition marked the first time in history that an alleged material sample of Noah's Ark was retrieved for lab analysis; the sample was determined by the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Hong Kong to be petrified wood, although the origin of the material remains uncertain. However, since the discovery in 2008 there have been no findings linking this sample to Noah's Ark.[20] In 2010, members of Noah's Ark Ministries International reported that carbon dating suggests the wood is 4,800 years old which they believe to be the date of the Flood. They also deny that there was any human settlement at the site
How do you spell H-O-A-X


gotta love the believers in this thread though
desperate much


Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Domesticated dogs can all interbreed. So speciation has not yet occured among them.
When was the last time you saw a chichuaua crossed with a great Dane ?

Last edited by Marduk; 28th April 2010 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 28th April 2010, 04:56 AM   #145
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This thread reminds me of something hilarious that happened when I was a kid.

My mom was standing near me and my sister, when she asked, "Did you hear about Noah's Ark?"

My sister, a blossoming Christian fundie, smirkingly replied, "They found it, didn't they?"

Mom and I looked at each other with a bemused glance, and my mom said, "No, it's going out of business."

Noah's Ark was a local store.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:08 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Nursedan View Post
Alright, fine. I guess there's no possibility that this could be Noah's Ark. None whatsoever. Case closed.

I choose to make up my mind after compelling evidence is shown, not before. Maybe I don't fully understand the concept, then, of skepticism.
Yes. Possibility for there to be an ark that has in historical time floated on the surface of the sea and have stranded high up on Mt. Ararat is precisely zero.

So any object found there high up on Mt. Ararat, is, given the ex-ante probability of the existence of such a thing (zero), zero. Simply because of the fact that zero times x is always zero, regardless of what x is.

If x is the probability that an archeological find in an area, said to have been the scene of an ark stranding once uopn a time, is 1, then the Baysean probabilty of that find to be Noah's ark is 0, because 0*1=0.

Of course the probability of an archeological find atop a mountain of that size is, regardless of any myths pertaining to that mountain, much much smaller than 1, more like verrrrrrrrrrrrry close to zero.
0.0000001*0 = 0 still.


Case closed.


Unless you want to content that a global flood that rises high enough to drop a boat atop Mt. Arafat is at all possible.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:13 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
1. Every animal would need feeding. Not only during the flood but afterwards until plants can grow again. However there is no space for food.

2. Then how do we go from having only a few species of dog to many species of dog? Evolution?

3. They did not carry any plants. So most plant life would be extinct. Some might grow from seeds. But then trees can take years to grow back. Tough luck on any animal that depends on trees.

4. The ark would be much bigger than any wooden ship ever built. There would be reasons why wooden ships would not be this big.

5. Who is going to look after all the animals?

6. Who is going to sail the ark?
On #6: I think the idea is that they just drifted with the wind. Possibly with dredge anchors to keep the bow turned into the waves. That is really the thing to do when you have nowhere to go anyhow.

HOWEVER, this shows another caveat: So, according to legend the Ark drifted around till the waters subsided so much that it was grounded on Mt. Ararat. So we have this huge, heavily loaded wooden ship drifting by the wind on the largest open sea ever seen on the planet, and it runs onto a rock! What happens when a large wooden vessel drifts onto a rock sticking up in open sea, even in relatively calm weather? .... Right! It will sink. Even on a dead calm day there will be an ocean swell that can beat a battleship to bits if it strands on an isolated rock!

This legend was so obviously constructed by people with no knowledge of the sea.

Hans
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:17 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Nursedan View Post
I choose to make up my mind after compelling evidence is shown, not before.
What would be compellling evidence that it's not Noah's Ark?
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:18 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
How did the marsupials get to Australia from Ararat 4,000 years ago?
Life boat.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:29 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
How did the marsupials get to Australia from Ararat 4,000 years ago?
Ararat is in Australia only a couple of hours north west of Melbourne.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:29 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
On #6: I think the idea is that they just drifted with the wind. Possibly with dredge anchors to keep the bow turned into the waves. That is really the thing to do when you have nowhere to go anyhow.
<snip>

If they had a type of anchor that went to the bottom of the sea then the rope must be very long. If the sea covered the entire world that means that they would be over many tens of thousands of feet of sea. Now how long a rope would be needed?

Then a big deep sea would sometimes have huge waves. That would cause enormous stress on the ship. I wonder how they fixed the leaks?

The more thought that is put into Noah's ark the more silly it looks.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:29 AM   #152
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Here are a few cross-references. From a thread dealing with an expedition to find the relic in question:
Originally Posted by Brown View Post
Gen. 8:4: "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat." Contrary to popular belief, Genesis does NOT say that the ark rested on Mount Ararat (what is now called Greater Ararat). Rather, the ark rested upon mountains in a region called Ararat.

The region that was known as Ararat in ancient times did not have Greater Ararat in it.
From a different thread:
Originally Posted by Brown View Post
It is quite possible that the expedition will find something. If memory serves, there are historical reports of natives who built some "ruins" that could be shown to faithful pilgrims. The potential for pious fraud is very serious.
My initial reaction, therefore, is that this "find" is very unlikely to be what the finders claim it is. Considering the extreme levels of deceit (pious and otherwise) that have surrounded this relic in the past, the burden of proving provenance ought to be exceptionally high.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:46 AM   #153
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It can't be Noahs Ark because the Flood did not happen. Unless hypothetical, Pondering the existence of something resulting from an impossibility is daft.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:50 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Dats View Post
Ararat is in Australia only a couple of hours north west of Melbourne.
Have they got any arks there? Or any 12,000 foot snow-capped mountains someone has missed seeing?

Anyway, if the ark did run aground there, the reverse situation holds true for the English hedgehog - how did it get from rural south-eastern Australia all the way to the UK without a trace of it being found in Ararat or anywhere between?


Oh yeah. Lifeboats. Someone did say!
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:51 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by learner View Post
It can't be Noahs Ark because the Flood did not happen. Unless hypothetical, Pondering the existence of something resulting from an impossibility is daft.
FYI, they got past the "daft" checkpoint some time ago. They are now descended to fraudulent money-grabbing loonie-bin escapees.
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:54 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
I posted it for informative purposes not to support any credibility. In fact, I didn't even read it. But OK. I can understand you discomfort my friend.

Nice attempt to backtrack, but you can't slither away.

(Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie)
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Old 28th April 2010, 05:59 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If they had a type of anchor that went to the bottom of the sea then the rope must be very long. If the sea covered the entire world that means that they would be over many tens of thousands of feet of sea. Now how long a rope would be needed?
I am not sure if they had the technology back then, but the most obvious way to control a vessel in that situation would be a sea anchor
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Old 28th April 2010, 06:00 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I'm not Complexity, and he will answer or not if he wants, but I'd just like to say this: This is just as likely to be Noah's Ark as it is to be the Elven Ship that carried Frodo and Bilbo to The Undying Lands.

(Shh!!! Over here. If I continue to pull this one thread that I found, NurseDan will unravel. Pretty cool, eh?)
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Old 28th April 2010, 06:03 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If they had a type of anchor that went to the bottom of the sea then the rope must be very long. If the sea covered the entire world that means that they would be over many tens of thousands of feet of sea. Now how long a rope would be needed?
Sorry, I used the wrong word. Drogue anchor is the English term, sorry about that. A drogue anchor presents a resistance to the water and is dragged behind a boat as it drifts with the wind. This can stabilize the movements of the vessel and keep it presenting on end to the waves. This is a well-known way to help a ship ride out a storm in open sea.
The rope needs not be particularly long.

In some apologist articles, they claim that such anchors on the Ark were made of rock, but that is neither necessary nor practical. Your typical drogue consists of a conical canvas tube, much like a thick windsock, with a wooden cross holding the upstream (large) opening open. A rope is tied to the cross intersection, and when you drag it, it positions itself just under the water surface, where it also serves the purpose of dampening the wave crests, so you get fewer waves breaking over the ship. Getting drogues back in without a winch is a - drag -, but I suppose Noah could just cut them loose when his journey was over. So this particular part of the story, which is NOT in the Bible, but part of later rationalization, makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Then a big deep sea would sometimes have huge waves. That would cause enormous stress on the ship. I wonder how they fixed the leaks?
Yeah, that would require a really sturdy construction. I suppose they could fill dung into the leaks.

Quote:
The more thought that is put into Noah's ark the more silly it looks.
Quite.

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Last edited by MRC_Hans; 28th April 2010 at 06:08 AM.
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Old 28th April 2010, 06:05 AM   #160
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Did the ark have a sacrificial anode for the Woodpeckers?
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