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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 23rd September 2017, 04:24 AM   #1
Nessie
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The behaviour of US police officers.

That someone is posting on a thread, asking for advice on how not to get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop, is evidence that the behaviour of the police in the USA is not what should be expected of a police officer.

I hate referring to those people in uniform as cops or police because that is not how they work.

To me a police officer is someone who has signed up to take risks to themselves so as to preserve the lives of others. Their duty is to detect and arrest suspect criminals so that they should be taken to court and justice served. They are there to calm situations down and preserve the peace. They are there to make good people feel safe and bad people worry they will be caught and convicted. In the UK those duties are enshrined in the law and form the basis of how they are trained.

It has been made abundantly clear by many that in the USA, the police have no duty to protect the public (I believe that may even be backed by law). They are not expected to take risks. It is fine for them to shoot to kill and not arrest. The will inflame situations, make them much worse and think there is no place for patient talking down of violent incidents. They make good people feel scared. They make bad people react with extreme violence back at them because they do not realise the tough guy act causes others to act tough back. The makes many US police no different from vigilante thugs dishing out summary justice.

Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?
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Old 23rd September 2017, 05:39 AM   #2
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British policing is founded on the principles laid down by Sir Robert Peel. I don't know what American policing is based on (I note the USA is not one of the countries listed on that page).

Quote:
The nine principles were as follows:
  1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
  2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
  3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
  4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
  5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
  6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
  7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
  8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary, of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
  9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 05:49 AM   #3
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*some US police officers.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 06:04 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
*some US police officers.
It could be many or even the majority. With newspapers now tracking the number of police shootings, but only the fatal ones, we have no idea how many Americans get shot by their own police and the circumstances.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 06:05 AM   #5
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It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%
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Old 23rd September 2017, 06:20 AM   #6
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My (very few) encounters with US LEOs were friendly, polite and professional.

Then again, I am a white male speaking English fluently, so...
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Old 23rd September 2017, 06:21 AM   #7
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What we need are real statistics to see how these things are trending over the years. Unfortunately, they do not exist. This is born of weak state politicians who don't wanna know (they'd be the ones collecting the data for each state, not the feds.)

What stats there are was laboriously assembled by journalists pouring over old newspaper records literally looking for news stories, and those have about as much confidence as that a prison will contain Lex Luthor.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 06:23 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%
Other important figures would be;

- how many have discharged their gun in that year?
- how many shots have they fired?
- how many hits and misses?
- how many wounded?

But we will not officially get those figures as there is clearly a massive cover-up to hide the problem. I do not meant a CT, I mean that each police force is not held to account and is not interested in tackling what they do not see as an issue.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 06:24 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
My (very few) encounters with US LEOs were friendly, polite and professional.

Then again, I am a white male speaking English fluently, so...
I presume also no alcohol, drugs, you were not carrying anything and you were not suspected of committing a crime.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 08:53 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It could be many or even the majority. With newspapers now tracking the number of police shootings, but only the fatal ones, we have no idea how many Americans get shot by their own police and the circumstances.
First, its news because it's news. That is, it's at least somewhat unusual. As the press here say, "If it bleeds, it leads."

Second, do you really, I mean really, believe that 200 million adult Americans, most of whom are armed (and better-armed than the police, in many cases - Google North Hollywood Fight) are so cowed by a few thousand cops, that they would tolerate the situation you describe?

Having said that, unjustified shootings occur much too often; just once would be much too often. What are the causes? I'm in no position to analyse, but it does appear that unconscious racism is a strong element, probably accompanied by insufficient training. No cop starts his shift with the intention of killing a citizen.

And I can tell you, based on my experience with the police, that the vast majority of American cops are more bothered by these shootings than is the average citizen. Not only are they just as shocked as the average person but, as a (Black) state police sergeant said to me, "It hurts; it's an actual physical pain."

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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:05 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%
Locally, the rate of unjustified police shootings is approx .025%, iirc.


Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
What we need are real statistics to see how these things are trending over the years. Unfortunately, they do not exist. This is born of weak state politicians who don't wanna know (they'd be the ones collecting the data for each state, not the feds.)

What stats there are was laboriously assembled by journalists pouring over old newspaper records literally looking for news stories, and those have about as much confidence as that a prison will contain Lex Luthor.
Horsehocky. See below


Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Other important figures would be;

- how many have discharged their gun in that year?
- how many shots have they fired?
- how many hits and misses?
- how many wounded?
Don't forget to separate justified shootings from unjustified.

Quote:
But we will not officially get those figures as there is clearly a massive cover-up to hide the problem. I do not meant a CT, I mean that each police force is not held to account and is not interested in tackling what they do not see as an issue.
That's The biggest crock yet, in this thread. Our local and state police are quite happy and proud to display their statistics, and they even explain how to verify them for yourself. Moreover, they *are* held to account, as can be found in the public records (and I do not mean the press).



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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:12 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
....

Second, do you really, I mean really, believe that 200 million adult Americans, most of whom are armed (and better-armed than the police, in many cases - Google North Hollywood Fight) are so cowed by a few thousand cops, that they would tolerate the situation you describe?

....
Yes, 200 million Americans do tolerate the killings. It is not because they are cowed of the cops. It is because Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period. It is the norm. It is also getting worse, as cops kill more and more people;

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...olice-killings

In 2016, it was 1093.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-many-ame...ch-year-480712

"a comparison of just these 28 “complete” states should give us a true indication of the frequency of police killings over time, in at least half the country. What it shows is alarming and incredible: a steep and steady increase from 359 police killings in 2000 to 739 in 2015"
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:14 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
....

Don't forget to separate justified shootings from unjustified.

.....
Indeed. The problem being, in the USA justified includes shootings that are unjustified everywhere else in the western world.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:16 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%
One thousand out of a million is 0.1%. Which makes your point about 10x more valid.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:17 AM   #15
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In Bmore, the standard police encounter consists of one-two cops walking up to some black guy minding his own business, flinging him around, cursing and possibly spewing racial slurs, possibly digging into their pockets or down their pants, and then leaving without so much as a "sorry."

They don't like their cops very much.

Luckily I live in a suburb, so I generally never see a cop, much to my relief.

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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
That someone is posting on a thread, asking for advice on how not to get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop, is evidence that the behaviour of the police in the USA is not what should be expected of a police officer.
Yes, that is startling, indeed. Just out of curiosity, how many times has this someone been shot? I mean, it must suck, seeing those flashing lights and then having the bullet pass through you, over and over again.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:20 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?


This is a pretty terrible post as far as I, a New Yorker, am concerned. Police and firefighters who lived in my county rushed into the World Trade Center and died there.

Police are people who confront unknown situations every day, some of which may be violent. They have no idea when or how a situation might turn deadly.

It's true that police generally overestimate danger. And it's true that some may judge that danger based on the race, sex or religion of the person they stop. I am all in favor of increased training and standardized procedures for law enforcement. But there's a difference between wanting the police to get better and saying they are indefensible.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:24 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes, 200 million Americans do tolerate the killings. It is not because they are cowed of the cops. It is because Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period. It is the norm. It is also getting worse, as cops kill more and more people;

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...olice-killings

In 2016, it was 1093.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-many-ame...ch-year-480712

"a comparison of just these 28 “complete” states should give us a true indication of the frequency of police killings over time, in at least half the country. What it shows is alarming and incredible: a steep and steady increase from 359 police killings in 2000 to 739 in 2015"
Cripes, did you not read the entire article including the part where they say the data is not particularly trustworthy and the for the period the data is complete, the trends are flat?
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:31 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cripes, did you not read the entire article including the part where they say the data is not particularly trustworthy and the for the period the data is complete, the trends are flat?
Yes, which is why I highlighted where the data is considered complete and accurate. From 358 killings in 2000 to 1093 in 2016 is not a flat trend. The US population and number of police has not tripled in that time.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
First, its news because it's news. That is, it's at least somewhat unusual. As the press here say, "If it bleeds, it leads."

Second, do you really, I mean really, believe that 200 million adult Americans, most of whom are armed (and better-armed than the police, in many cases - Google North Hollywood Fight) are so cowed by a few thousand cops, that they would tolerate the situation you describe?

Having said that, unjustified shootings occur much too often; just once would be much too often. What are the causes? I'm in no position to analyse, but it does appear that unconscious racism is a strong element, probably accompanied by insufficient training. No cop starts his shift with the intention of killing a citizen.

And I can tell you, based on my experience with the police, that the vast majority of American cops are more bothered by these shootings than is the average citizen. Not only are they just as shocked as the average person but, as a (Black) state police sergeant said to me, "It hurts; it's an actual physical pain."

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I agree with you, Beady, and I'm glad to hear that at least some officers are making their feelings known.

I don't interact with LEO very often, so the only way I have to hear about 'good' cops is the media, and they're pretty silent about it.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:36 AM   #21
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A very relevant study to the topic

https://theconversation.com/why-do-a...ean-cops-49696

It puts the higher instance of shootings in the USA compared to Europe down to;

More guns and aggression.
Racism.
Type of training, or lack of.
Lower level of threat where deadly force is accepted by the courts.

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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:42 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes, which is why I highlighted where the data is considered complete and accurate. From 358 killings in 2000 to 1093 in 2016 is not a flat trend. The US population and number of police has not tripled in that time.
False:

Quote:
Reporting might be a lot better in recent years, and reports in prior years (if they were made at all) may be increasingly difficult to find the further back you go. In addition, FE’s totals for the last three years — the years they consider most complete — are pretty flat.

So I can’t testify to the quality or completeness of the historical data FE has assembled, but if the trend is significantly upwards,
Plus now you are mixing different data sets
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:44 AM   #23
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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:45 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Yes, 200 million Americans do tolerate the killings. It is not because they are cowed of the cops. It is because Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period. It is the norm.
Oh for crying out loud.

You appear to be stating that Americans are apparently horrified by any kind of death except that inflicted by gunfire.

Where I am reluctant to claim the ability or knowledge to analyse or assign cause, you seem to have no such qualms.

Your claims that Americans shooting each other is the norm and is tolerated, are demonstrably wrong.

Quote:
http://www.newsweek.com/how-many-ame...ch-year-480712

"a comparison of just these 28 “complete” states should give us a true indication of the frequency of police killings over time, in at least half the country. What it shows is alarming and incredible: a steep and steady increase from 359 police killings in 2000 to 739 in 2015"
You ignored the very next paragraph:

"My rule of thumb with numbers that look unbelievable*is generally “don’t believe them,” at least without corroboration. There are a few reasons to be skeptical of this trend."

And the article's final paragraph:

"The federal data is mostly useless, the private data is better but still incomplete, and there’s a bunch of recent data points and a couple possible (but not definitive) trends that seem suggestive. Like a puzzle missing most of the pieces, the data so far are interesting, but not illuminating."

I have no intention of either excusing or denying the facts. They are what they are. OTOH, it is not helpful to misrepresent the data or to base analyses of the data on personal prejudice (and I detect more than a whiff of "Yankeephobia" in your remarks and cherry-picked quotations.

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Old 23rd September 2017, 09:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
I agree with you, Beady, and I'm glad to hear that at least some officers are making their feelings known.

I don't interact with LEO very often, so the only way I have to hear about 'good' cops is the media, and they're pretty silent about it.
I strongly suggest that everybody contact their local and state police to inquire about attending a Civilian Police Academy. This is a voluntary program conducted by many police departments, to familiarise citizens with the police. It does not grant you any extra legal rights, such as carrying a weapon, nor does it qualify you for any kind of law enforcement position. It's sole purpose is to demonstrate the how and why of the police.

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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:03 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
Oh for crying out loud.

You appear to be stating that Americans are apparently horrified by any kind of death except that inflicted by gunfire.

Where I am reluctant to claim the ability or knowledge to analyse or assign cause, you seem to have no such qualms.
Gun control threads are usually peppered with comments on deaths in car crashes and swimming pools. They have both dropped as people have reacted making both safer. That has not happened with guns.

Quote:
Your claims that Americans shooting each other is the norm and is tolerated, are demonstrably wrong.
Please demonstrate how I am wrong.

Quote:
You ignored the very next paragraph:

"My rule of thumb with numbers that look unbelievable*is generally “don’t believe them,” at least without corroboration. There are a few reasons to be skeptical of this trend."

And the article's final paragraph:

"The federal data is mostly useless, the private data is better but still incomplete, and there’s a bunch of recent data points and a couple possible (but not definitive) trends that seem suggestive. Like a puzzle missing most of the pieces, the data so far are interesting, but not illuminating."

I have no intention of either excusing or denying the facts. They are what they are. OTOH, it is not helpful to misrepresent the data or to base analyses of the data on personal prejudice (and I detect more than a whiff of "Yankeephobia" in your remarks and cherry-picked quotations.

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The basic information still shows an increase in the number of people shot by the police. Even it is not an actual upward trend, it is still way more than any other western country, which alone should ring alarm bells.

There is no Yankee phobia. My interest in the topic is based on working as a security guard in Boston in 1986, seeing the police in action and subsequent career in the police in Scotland, which included firearms licensing. That gives me a particular insight when it comes to comparing and contrasting the use of guns and policing USA vs UK.

Any appearance of Yankee phobia is down to my utter amazement that a country like the USA, well resourced, well educated, full of decent people is getting it so horribly wrong.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
I strongly suggest that everybody contact their local and state police to inquire about attending a Civilian Police Academy. ....
I would love that! I looked up an example and found Woodbury NY.

http://www.woodburypolice.com/civili...e-academy.html

In the examples of what is shown are;
- Sgt. Phillips and PO Burbage presenting on TRU Team Tactics and general SWAT principles.
- PO Burbage prepares crowd for flash bang deployment.
- TRU Team Members demonstrate a vehicle assault for Civilian Academy participants.

The town itself is rated as follows for crime;

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/woodbury/crime

Safer than 65% of US cities
Chances of being a victim of violent crime 1/1292 (In NY state it is 1/263)

Why is the Woodbury police force so geared up towards dealing with violence in a pretty non violent place? Here, the Woodbury TRU appear to be preparing for war;

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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:36 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would love that! I looked up an example and found Woodbury NY.

http://www.woodburypolice.com/civili...e-academy.html

In the examples of what is shown are;
- Sgt. Phillips and PO Burbage presenting on TRU Team Tactics and general SWAT principles.
- PO Burbage prepares crowd for flash bang deployment.
- TRU Team Members demonstrate a vehicle assault for Civilian Academy participants.

The town itself is rated as follows for crime;

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/woodbury/crime

Safer than 65% of US cities
Chances of being a victim of violent crime 1/1292 (In NY state it is 1/263)

Why is the Woodbury police force so geared up towards dealing with violence in a pretty non violent place? Here, the Woodbury TRU appear to be preparing for war;

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c172ee41b7f4...&alloworigin=1
Don't know, but I'd bet that they have at least a few officers that think it's fun (and won't admit it, 'cause "this is SERIOUS ******!!") and don't have enough else to do. As long as they don't get carried away with their fantasies, I say it's at least a little better than hassling the citizen. YMMV.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:43 AM   #29
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There appears to be a lot of officers who think its fun......

https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal...militarization

"War Comes Home The Excessive Militarization of American Policing

All across the country, heavily armed SWAT teams are raiding people’s homes in the middle of the night, often just to search for drugs. It should enrage us that people have needlessly died during these raids, that pets have been shot, and that homes have been ravaged.

Our neighborhoods are not warzones, and police officers should not be treating us like wartime enemies. Any yet, every year, billions of dollars’ worth of military equipment flows from the federal government to state and local police departments. Departments use these wartime weapons in everyday policing, especially to fight the wasteful and failed drug war, which has unfairly targeted people of color.

As our new report makes clear, it’s time for American police to remember that they are supposed to protect and serve our communities, not wage war on the people who live in them."
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:45 AM   #30
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From the other thread:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What a laugh.

I've seen plenty of people be completely nasty and vulgar with cops and watched the cops patiently let the person go on and on about it.

What you see on the news is not typical. I've been pulled over maybe a dozen times without incident, and once I was pretty pissed off. Didn't get shot.

Seriously folks, take a step back for a minute - do any of you see any of the hate and violence that is reported in the news every day? See any nazis? What's that? One of you may have once at one time? Ya that's what I thought.

We are not living in a country full of hate, racism. violence and death. That is the fantasy of the 24 hour news cycle. No go eat some ice cream and enjoy your gawdamn day.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 10:52 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
From the other thread:



This critical thinking forum is a joke now.
You appear to think there is no issue here. Any evidence to show there is no issue?
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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:05 AM   #32
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It seems to me that there are people saying that shootings by US police are clearly not a cause for concern and that therefore we have no need to discuss it. I presume they're not saying that there are no shootings by US police, as that is absurd, or that all shootings by US police are fully justified, as there is unimpeachable evidence that completely unnecessary shootings of people who presented no significant threat have occurred. They must therefore be saying that the current rate of unjustified shootings is acceptable. I would ask therefore what they would consider the maximum acceptable number of shootings per year of unarmed people in situations where there is no clear threat to the police officer. Numbers, anyone?

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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:10 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It seems to me that there are people saying that shootings by US police are clearly not a cause for concern and that therefore we have no need to discuss it.
Dave
really? On what do you base that claim?
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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:12 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I would love that! I looked up an example and found Woodbury NY.

http://www.woodburypolice.com/civili...e-academy.html

In the examples of what is shown are;
- Sgt. Phillips and PO Burbage presenting on TRU Team Tactics and general SWAT principles.
- PO Burbage prepares crowd for flash bang deployment.
- TRU Team Members demonstrate a vehicle assault for Civilian Academy participants.

The town itself is rated as follows for crime;

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ny/woodbury/crime

Safer than 65% of US cities
Chances of being a victim of violent crime 1/1292 (In NY state it is 1/263)

Why is the Woodbury police force so geared up towards dealing with violence in a pretty non violent place? Here, the Woodbury TRU appear to be preparing for war;

http://nebula.wsimg.com/c172ee41b7f4...&alloworigin=1
First, you carefully neglect to mention that you are quoting photograph captions. Photographs that don't depict either scenery or action are singularly boring, and showing a series of photographs that don't depict scenery or action, even with captions, would be pointless. Apparently you agree because:

There is a fourth photo (actually the third in the series) that shows the attendees in a classroom setting. You not only skipped over this photo, you seem to want to hide it's existence.

You also fail to quote or mention this paragraph: "The students attend a 3 hour*course once a week for a period* over at least 10 weeks of instruction. During each course, the students experience a*hands-on learning approach to gain insight concerning the practices of modern*law enforcement agencies."

Is it your contention that attendees are presented with approximately 30 hours of nothing but SWAT, assault and similar presentations? In fact, such presentations occupy less than 10% of such courses.

Once again your post is entirely cherry picking and misrepresentation. Have you no shame?

No, I suspect you would not "love" to attend an academy, since it would not agree with your agenda.

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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:18 AM   #35
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American chiming in. We have a violent culture here. Some of those violent types are attracted to law enforcement, so you get the outlier stories that make the news.

Anecdotally, I have met more thug-type cops than protect-and-serve types, but that may have to do more with luck-of-the-draw or user input. Have not been shot but have come ridiculously close. Far closer than I should have (gun shoved behind ear once, which i am reeeeeeally certain is not SOP).
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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:24 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There appears to be a lot of officers who think its fun......

https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal...militarization

"War Comes Home The Excessive Militarization of American Policing

All across the country, heavily armed SWAT teams are raiding people’s homes in the middle of the night, often just to search for drugs.It should enrage us that people have needlessly died during these raids, that pets have been shot, and that homes have been ravaged.

Our neighborhoods are not warzones, and police officers should not be treating us like wartime enemies. Any yet, every year, billions of dollars’ worth of military equipment flows from the federal government to state and local police departments. Departments use these wartime weapons in everyday policing, especially to fight the wasteful and failed drug war, which has unfairly targeted people of color.

As our new report makes clear, it’s time for American police to remember that they are supposed to protect and serve our communities, not wage war on the people who live in them."
Once again you, and the article in this case, are ignoring something. "All across the country, heavily armed SWAT teams are raiding people’s homes in the middle of the night, often just to search for drugs."

What you are ignoring is that it takes a warrant to authorize a raid, and it's not "often just to search for drugs." The warrant will only be granted if the police can show probable cause, that is, a reasonable suspicion that drugs will be found. They cannot just bust in and make a cold search.

I'm not going to get into the merits of the war on drugs, since that's primarily a legislative matter, and the issue of police militarization is a conversation that's just beginning. I do know, however, that cops themselves are divided on the issue, and you don't have to look far to see how they are often outgunned.

BTW, I'm a member of the ACLU, and the cited article strikes me as needlessly hyperbolic.

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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:29 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
There appears to be a lot of officers who think its fun......

https://www.aclu.org/issues/criminal...militarization

"War Comes Home The Excessive Militarization of American Policing

All across the country, heavily armed SWAT teams are raiding people’s homes in the middle of the night, often just to search for drugs. It should enrage us that people have needlessly died during these raids, that pets have been shot, and that homes have been ravaged.

Our neighborhoods are not warzones, and police officers should not be treating us like wartime enemies. Any yet, every year, billions of dollars’ worth of military equipment flows from the federal government to state and local police departments. Departments use these wartime weapons in everyday policing, especially to fight the wasteful and failed drug war, which has unfairly targeted people of color.

As our new report makes clear, it’s time for American police to remember that they are supposed to protect and serve our communities, not wage war on the people who live in them."
This was a big part of the problem in Ferguson. The cops there basically had the armored vehicles and riot gear (Oh, and police dogs. Because, you know, there are absolutely no unfortunate images of Police confronting nonviolent black marchers with police dogs) and were confronting residents in their own neighborhoods, before any protests had begun. This is probably what led to the riots to begin with - rule #1 is that you let people march and rally without acting like it's a war, and then people won't act like they're in a warzone.

This sort of large military equipment (I can see, say, sidearms or armor) should be left to the National Guard garrisons, to be called out for serious emergencies like the Boston Marathon Bombers, rather than some angry local residents chanting "No Justice, No Peace!" and the like.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:30 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
You appear to think there is no issue here. Any evidence to show there is no issue?
No, theres an issue. But your misrepresentation and the ensuing argument does little or nothing to contribute to a solution.

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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:31 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
really? On what do you base that claim?
Standard modus operandi. Pick on something tangential to the thrust of the post, and work away at it endlessly, deliberately avoiding dealing with the principles or the main points raised. That's both an observation, and a prediction.
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Old 23rd September 2017, 11:34 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
From the other thread:



This critical thinking forum is a joke now.
From the other thread:

US police kill their populace at 70 times the rate that British police kill theirs, and 28 times the rate German police kill theirs. Even 7 times the rate Canadian police kill theirs. If there's critical thinking to be done on the subject, commenting on those amazing statistics would be a good place to start.
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