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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 11th December 2017, 08:31 AM   #361
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
The conspiracy theorist in me wonders if this wasn't some sort of elaborate set up to conduct a clean hit.

I'm not entirely kidding!
I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.

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Old 11th December 2017, 08:52 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Which has what to do with the killing under discussion at the moment?
I was responding to this claim;
Quote:
If this incident had happened in the UK, the reaction would have been universal horror and no one would try and justify it.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Was that USA police officer acting as a member of a UK police force? Should he be liable to prosecution under UK law?
No. Where are you going with this?

Last edited by Ranb; 11th December 2017 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 11th December 2017, 08:56 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.

Dave
How about Dillon Taylor who was rightly shot for following police instructions to remove hands from his pockets. Keep them in there they shoot you for not obeying them, take them out they shoot you for suspicion of drawing a weapon. Basically the police can do what ever they want and you hope what they want isn't to shoot you.
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Old 11th December 2017, 08:58 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
I was responding to this claim;




No. Where are you going with this?
Can we move this off topic whataboutism discussion UK police to a different thread? It seems to be entirely about one or two shootings, instead of in the US when we have trouble finding every shooting where someone was shot while obey police instructions. To say nothing of all the shootings where the police don't even give them time to react.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:00 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.

Dave
Thats called "swatting". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting

Commonly done when someone "pwns" you at an online game.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:04 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I was wondering something similar. It seems that, from the moment the police think someone is in possession of a firearm and constitutes a threat, there is very little that person can do to avoid being shot dead; in this instance, Shaver seems to have been shot for exhibiting an involuntary muscular response while doing his utmost both to comply with police instructions and to demonstrate that he offered no threat, in the case of Philando Castile he was shot dead because a police officer misinterpreted his attempt to comply with that officer's instructions as threatening, and there will no doubt be other instances before long. Since suicide by cop is so well understood a concept, what about murder by cop? Tell the police that someone is behaving dangerously with a firearm, and you've got a good chance he'll come out of the encounter horizontally.

Surely to goodness the incidents we've been discussing, while agreed to be far too frequent, are still only a small percentage of the times cops are called out to an incident of that general description? I'm kind of hoping that ending up dead because someone called the cops and said they saw you handling a gun is not a common outcome of that scenario overall.
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Old 11th December 2017, 04:35 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
How about Dillon Taylor who was rightly shot for following police instructions to remove hands from his pockets. Keep them in there they shoot you for not obeying them, take them out they shoot you for suspicion of drawing a weapon. Basically the police can do what ever they want and you hope what they want isn't to shoot you.

Follow a guy in a van into a quickie-mart parking lot and bust him because he starts to take off his seat belt before he's all the way off of the public road.

Man gets out of of his van.

Tell him to show his license and registration.

When he reaches toward his van for his license and registration ... shoot him because he might be 'going for a weapon'.
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Old 22nd December 2017, 06:37 PM   #368
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OK what Nimrod thought this was a plan?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...istmas-n832166

Quote:
News Dec 22 2017, 7:37 pm ET
Texas boy, 6, killed in deputy-involved shooting days before Christmas
by Corky Siemaszko and Phil McCausland

6-year-old Texas boy was killed just days before Christmas when sheriff’s deputies opened fire on a woman they had been chasing — and one of the bullets pierced the wall of a mobile home and struck the child in the abdomen.
....
The boy, Kameron Prescott, was fatally shot as deputies chased the approximately 30-year-old suspect in a "prolonged pursuit" that was reported as a call of a stolen vehicle which involved a known suspect who had outstanding felony warrants, Salazar said.
During the first encounter a deputy “identified what he believed was a weapon in the hands of that suspect” and the woman at that time and later threatened deputies with a weapon “and verbalized to him that she intended to shoot him with that weapon” — although no gun has yet been found, Salazar said.
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Old 23rd December 2017, 03:23 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
OK what Nimrod thought this was a plan?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...istmas-n832166
Is this really how they understand the words "to protect and to serve"?
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Old 29th December 2017, 03:35 PM   #370
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As the same unjustified murders of US citizens by police are still going on without punishments one can expect nothing will change next year: https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/29/...olice-shooting
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Old 29th December 2017, 06:45 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
As the same unjustified murders of US citizens by police are still going on without punishments one can expect nothing will change next year: https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/29/...olice-shooting
It's claimed that the poor guy (who was completely innocent of even involvement in the online game resulting in the call) reached for his waistband...which of course is exactly the same excuse that stupid scaredy-cops always use after they've shot an unarmed citizen who is complying with directions. "This is too easy, it must be a trick!" <BANG>

I'm sure they'll track down and punish those responsible for the fake call while simultaneously officially absolving the cop of any wrongdoing.

ETA: Source for waistband excuse.

Last edited by Babbylonian; 29th December 2017 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:01 AM   #372
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"Swatting" is not even being reported as a problem, it is being reported as something that just happens.

It does give heavily armed swat police something to do and the old waist band excuse is a guarantee of being able to kill with impunity.

It takes about 1 to 2 seconds to pull a gun from a waist band behind the back, lift and shoot and that is without doing any aiming. A cop who has already drawn a gun which is aimed at the person is already at a massive advantage.

But I do understand that the general American attitude is of zero risk for cops and 100% of the risk on the public.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:31 PM   #373
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Here's an example of the sort of thing that happens daily. Luckily, we're not reading this in the obituary column. https://twitter.com/TheHipsterRebbe/...29792290729985
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Old 4th January 2018, 01:31 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
Here's an example of the sort of thing that happens daily. Luckily, we're not reading this in the obituary column. https://twitter.com/TheHipsterRebbe/...29792290729985
I'm not buying that particular story.
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Old 5th January 2018, 09:24 AM   #375
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Nationwide, police shot and killed nearly 1,000 people in 2017

Originally Posted by Washington Post
For the third year in a row, police nationwide shot and killed nearly 1,000 people, a grim annual tally that has persisted despite widespread public scrutiny of officers’ use of fatal force.

Police fatally shot 987 people last year, or two dozen more than they killed in 2016, according to an ongoing Washington Post database project that tracks the fatal shootings. Since 2015, The Post has logged the details of 2,945 shooting deaths, culled from local news coverage, public records and social-media reports.

While many of the year-to-year patterns remain consistent, the number of unarmed black males killed in 2017 declined from two years ago. Last year, police killed 19, a figure tracking closely with the 17 killed in 2016. In 2015, police shot and killed 36 unarmed black males.

Experts said they are uncertain why the annual total shows little fluctuation — the number for 2017 is almost identical to the 995 killed by police in 2015.

Some believe the tally may correspond to the number of times police encounter people, an outcome of statistical probability. Other experts are exploring whether the number tracks with overall violence in American society...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...340_story.html
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Old 5th January 2018, 09:26 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Nationwide, police shot and killed nearly 1,000 people in 2017




https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...340_story.html


Given advances in medical technology, if the number of fatal shootings is the same, does that suggest that the actual number of shootings is going up?
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Old 5th January 2018, 09:43 AM   #377
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Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.
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Old 5th January 2018, 09:51 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.
Evidence ?

I mean sure no-one was fatally shot but there's a huge excluded middle between "nothing bad" and "fatally shot".
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Old 5th January 2018, 09:58 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.
Yes, and the Germans fired millions of rounds in the first day of the battle of the Somme, whilst the British only suffered 20,000 casualties.
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Old 5th January 2018, 09:58 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Evidence ?

I mean sure no-one was fatally shot but there's a huge excluded middle between "nothing bad" and "fatally shot".
I think, in this instance "nothing bad happened" means no-one was shot and killed. I don't think that's an appropriate minimum standard to aim for.
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Old 5th January 2018, 10:04 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Yesterday there were 100,000 encounters with police where nothing bad happened.
Yesterday there were 10s of millions of interactions with black people where nothing bad happened, but if my son had been shot by a cop, a major point of the discussion would be why didn't my wife & I train said 5yo to interact with the police in a way that didn't spook them.
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Old 5th January 2018, 11:45 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Yesterday there were 10s of millions of interactions with black people where nothing bad happened, but if my son had been shot by a cop, a major point of the discussion would be why didn't my wife & I train said 5yo to interact with the police in a way that didn't spook them.

You would be able to answer those questioners with total accuracy that such training would be impossible, since the evidence is clear that anything or even nothing at all is sufficient to spook the cops.

The standard the cops are allowed to apply is how they feel about an encounter, not what anyone else actually does or doesn't do.
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Old 5th January 2018, 12:39 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You would be able to answer those questioners with total accuracy that such training would be impossible, since the evidence is clear that anything or even nothing at all is sufficient to spook the cops.

The standard the cops are allowed to apply is how they feel about an encounter, not what anyone else actually does or doesn't do.
Exactly! I'm an adult with a Master's Degree & military training including Ranger School, & I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. I don't see how I can train the boy for it when he gets confused by red or yellow bell peppers.

It snowed here last night. If the cops were shining a light in my face, told me to show my hands, then ordered me to come to them, I know I can't reach for the rail beside the steps due to it being roughly the height of my waist, but if I slipped & fell down the 5 steps there's a good chance they would see my sudden acceleration as "charging them".
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Old 5th January 2018, 12:56 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Exactly! I'm an adult with a Master's Degree & military training including Ranger School, & I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do.

<snip>

That's because there is no such thing.

The cop groupies like to pretend there is in their pitiful attempts at apologia, painstakingly dissecting each separate motion the victim makes, searching for some tiny flinch or stumble that they can point to and then crow, "Well, any fool should know not to do that!".

But the facts are the facts. that's what these encounters have demonstrated. It doesn't matter what the victim does. Real or imagined, what counts is what the cop thinks they have perceived.

And that is all the justification they need to start blasting away. There is no requirement for assessing or verifying anything. Just bull your way in and if something spooks you then shoot it.

And as long as their fellow cops stand around and watch it happen and then cover for the uniformed perp they are, in my mind at least, equally guilty. As long as juries let these threats to society walk away scot-free, it is going to continue.

It is going to get worse. Cops kill with impunity. Why should they stop? What have they got to lose?
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Old 5th January 2018, 01:20 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
...snip... if I slipped & fell down the 5 steps there's a good chance they would see my sudden acceleration as "charging them".
Actual sight is not required, they need only rely on feelings. Foresight is abused to meet their ends and hindsight is ignored, lest they learn anything from it.
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Old 5th January 2018, 07:52 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Actual sight is not required, they need only rely on feelings. Foresight is abused to meet their ends and hindsight is ignored, lest they learn anything from it.
Very well said.
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