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Tags police issues , police misconduct charges

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Old 9th December 2017, 06:06 AM   #281
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The victim panics and is trying his best to cooperate even when he does briefly put his hands behind his back. That cop scum is a murderer and to not convict him empowers more murder by the police.

At the point the cop shoots, Shaver is doing exactly what he was told to do by murdering scum cop and he is crawling towards him.
If you mean murderer as defined by US law, then he is not. He is clearly permitted to shoot when the man reaches back.
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Old 9th December 2017, 06:57 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
He is clearly permitted to shoot when the man reaches back.
How so?
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Old 9th December 2017, 07:16 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
How so?
Thanks to a bunch of supreme court case, the legal requirement can be summed up as only have to reasonably perceive a treat to use deadly force.
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Old 9th December 2017, 07:54 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Thanks to a bunch of supreme court case, the legal requirement can be summed up as only have to reasonably perceive a treat to use deadly force.
This is true. Another case of laws being made by those with no expectation of ever having to face the consequences of them.
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Old 9th December 2017, 08:16 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Thanks to a bunch of supreme court case, the legal requirement can be summed up as only have to reasonably perceive a treat to use deadly force.
Surely each of those prior cases stand on their own merits and each new case should be judged on the evidence available?

In this case the evidence does not support the reasonable perception of a deadly threat.

The **** of a police officer turned up intending to shoot Shaver; he informed him of his intention to do so, made him contort himself to make it inevitable that he would make some sort of mistake due to intoxication, humiliated him and then summarily executed him, making good on the prediction he had etched on his personal fire arm.

Legal precedence, my arse.
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Old 9th December 2017, 08:40 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Surely each of those prior cases stand on their own merits and each new case should be judged on the evidence available?

In this case the evidence does not support the reasonable perception of a deadly threat.

The **** of a police officer turned up intending to shoot Shaver; he informed him of his intention to do so, made him contort himself to make it inevitable that he would make some sort of mistake due to intoxication, humiliated him and then summarily executed him, making good on the prediction he had etched on his personal fire arm.

Legal precedence, my arse.
After I saw the video, I knew his defense would work. I based that off of legal precedent.
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Old 9th December 2017, 08:58 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
After I saw the video, I knew his defense would work. I based that off of legal precedent.
There is something fundamentally wrong with the fact that I can't argue against your certainty.

Your legal system is letting you down (if you are American, that is) and your police force is starting to run amok.

Americans are known for their lack of restraint here in the UK but this incident is beyond the pale.
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Old 9th December 2017, 09:28 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Thanks to a bunch of supreme court case, the legal requirement can be summed up as only have to reasonably perceive a treat to use deadly force.
Unfortunately true. If one is a craven, cowardly, and psychotic individual one should look into getting a badge. Departments hire tons of them and US courts love the little scamps!
I sincerely hope that waste of sperm is murdered on the job. I'll start a kickstarter to make his killer's bail.
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Old 9th December 2017, 11:12 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, and far too little oversight of far too many police forces allows bad cops to remain bad. Some are incompetent and might be appropriately trained, others should never have been cops in the first place and should never be put in positions of trust or power.

Lack of oversight is the least of the problem.

Anyone within the police force who tries to do anything about rogue cops is ostracized and hounded out of their jobs.

Anyone outside of it finds themselves targets of all the abuse that can be brought to bear against them.
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Old 9th December 2017, 11:14 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's because you aren't a US citizen - they are so used to having guns that having one pointed at them couldn't cause any reasonable person to panic or be nervous.

Unless they are cops, who panic at the mere thought of the possibility of a gun.

Quote:

Plus of course the murdered man broke the cardinal rule - he did something, and doing anything including doing nothing can put a cop in fear of his life....

"Do this, don't do that.

Can't you read my mind?"
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Old 9th December 2017, 11:18 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Surely each of those prior cases stand on their own merits and each new case should be judged on the evidence available?

In this case the evidence does not support the reasonable perception of a deadly threat.

<snip>

If only the concept of "reasonable" entered into it.

It doesn't. The law as it stands lets their defense hinge on what the cop claims was their "belief" at the time. It doesn't have to be reasonable.
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Old 9th December 2017, 11:25 AM   #292
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Here's a cop breaking a man's leg for buying a tomato.

Both are black, and, remarkably, the officer has been convicted, although it took Federal charges for that to happen.
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Old 9th December 2017, 12:47 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
If only the concept of "reasonable" entered into it.

It doesn't. The law as it stands lets their defense hinge on what the cop claims was their "belief" at the time. It doesn't have to be reasonable.
It is actually required to be "objectively reasonable."
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Old 9th December 2017, 01:06 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is actually required to be "objectively reasonable."
Well, that's the supposed requirement. In reality, the cop saying "I feared for my life" is usually enough, regardless of circumstances.

This is next to nothing when police are allowed to run wild, unfortunately. Here in Baltimore, we've had a major scandal where an entire unit was implicated - an where police that were set to testify against them were "mysteriously" killed. Chicago 's PD had black sites, complete with a torture chamber. And recall that the current administration is against any federal oversight in these cases.

But we're supposed to just trust the police. Right. All of this merely erodes trust in police.
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Old 9th December 2017, 01:30 PM   #295
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Considering Shaver died on the scene, I think we can classify the episode as a "clean shoot."
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Old 9th December 2017, 01:41 PM   #296
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Here's a better account of the circumstances which led up to the shooting, written by the victim's wife on a GoFundMe page. It wasn't a conference, just a normal business trip. He took the pellet guns out just because the couple he'd befriended wondered what was in the case - it wasn't that he was showing them to potential clients.

None of that makes any difference, but it points up how senseless the whole thing was. In a country where having firearms is common and not seen as a big deal, showing you have a firearm in your possession - even if it's only a pest control device - is enough to get you shot by an allegedly terrified policeman.
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:11 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you mean murderer as defined by US law, then he is not. He is clearly permitted to shoot when the man reaches back.
If such thing would happen during a war there would be enough arguments to qualify this as a crime of war because this is the murder in cold blood of a surrendering enemy.

I can still not believe that the cop walked free out of the courthouse. In a civilized country he would have been jailed several years for manslaughter if not for murder.
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Old 10th December 2017, 07:03 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
If such thing would happen during a war there would be enough arguments to qualify this as a crime of war because this is the murder in cold blood of a surrendering enemy.

I can still not believe that the cop walked free out of the courthouse. In a civilized country he would have been jailed several years for manslaughter if not for murder.
Yes; this exactly.

He had the right to bear arms. It didn't matter if it was an air rifle or an assault rifle, he had the right to have it.

Crawling on the floor sobbing and being screamed at for doing nothing more than exercising his right was bad enough. Being shot dead for failing to follow orders like a computer is beyond the pale.

Someone *thought* he threatened someone, but they were mistaken. Strangely, in this country one is supposed to be innocent 'til proven guilty. So why in hell are police officers allowed to act like judge, jury and executioner?

I absolutely cannot understand why my fellow citizens keep exonerating these vicious, criminal acts by those in uniforms. To me, they're worse than most of the criminals, because they're the ones we're all supposed to call if we need help...

I wonder how the folks on the jury will feel, when it slowly sinks in the only help they may ever get by calling the cops is to be "helped" into their graves, and when they had a chance to stand against it they approved instead?
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Old 10th December 2017, 07:41 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
If such thing would happen during a war there would be enough arguments to qualify this as a crime of war because this is the murder in cold blood of a surrendering enemy.

I can still not believe that the cop walked free out of the courthouse. In a civilized country he would have been jailed several years for manslaughter if not for murder.
What is the legal standard in other countries that would treat the scenario differently?
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Old 10th December 2017, 07:48 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post

Someone *thought* he threatened someone, but they were mistaken. Strangely, in this country one is supposed to be innocent 'til proven guilty. So why in hell are police officers allowed to act like judge, jury and executioner?
I've gotten flak when I've said this before, but I stand by it. If you shoot someone because you _THINK_ they have a gun, if they in fact do not have a gun, then you are in the wrong.

Hell, in this case, he never had anything that even looked like a gun. So deal with that before we get to "what do you do about things that look like guns." That question is irrelevant to the situation where they don't have anything that looks like a gun in the first place.

This is turning into Jimbo and Ned from South Park. As long as you yell, "My God! He's coming right at us!" it is an excuse to shoot anything.

And that isn't right. They actually have to be a threat.

I heard a claim by the defense that the reason he was acquitted is because they showed that he followed his training. If this is how they are training officers, it's wrong. That needs to be made clear.

I only watched the first minute or so. You know, when he laid sprawled out on the floor. Why wasn't he piled on there and cuffed? He was completely submissive and in a defenseless position. He was easily subdued, especially since there was more than one cop. Why wasn't he trained to do that?
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Old 10th December 2017, 07:55 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I've gotten flak when I've said this before, but I stand by it. If you shoot someone because you _THINK_ they have a gun, if they in fact do not have a gun, then you are in the wrong.

Hell, in this case, he never had anything that even looked like a gun. So deal with that before we get to "what do you do about things that look like guns." That question is irrelevant to the situation where they don't have anything that looks like a gun in the first place.

This is turning into Jimbo and Ned from South Park. As long as you yell, "My God! He's coming right at us!" it is an excuse to shoot anything.

And that isn't right. They actually have to be a threat.

I heard a claim by the defense that the reason he was acquitted is because they showed that he followed his training. If this is how they are training officers, it's wrong. That needs to be made clear.

I only watched the first minute or so. You know, when he laid sprawled out on the floor. Why wasn't he piled on there and cuffed? He was completely submissive and in a defenseless position. He was easily subdued, especially since there was more than one cop. Why wasn't he trained to do that?
He was but that wouldn't have given the **** of an officer the opportunity to execute him which was his stated aim. He had to get him nearer to ensure his first shot entered into Shavers face.

That jury should be ashamed of themselves.
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:08 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post

I only watched the first minute or so. You know, when he laid sprawled out on the floor. Why wasn't he piled on there and cuffed? He was completely submissive and in a defenseless position. He was easily subdued, especially since there was more than one cop. Why wasn't he trained to do that?
His proximity to his door made it risky to handcuff him if another shooter opened the door and attacked.
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:30 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What about this one?

https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/939014159726870530

http://www.tmz.com/2017/12/07/mesa-p...daniel-shaver/

Warning. Graphic killing just after four minutes in. You may want to stop before that.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.3269247
At least this case went to a jury trial. That is at least some kind of third-party review, although maybe not independent.
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Old 10th December 2017, 08:44 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
If you shoot someone because you _THINK_ they have a gun, if they in fact do not have a gun, then you are in the wrong.

Hell, in this case, he never had anything that even looked like a gun.

In fact, he didn't have anything at all. No cell phone, no wallet, ...nothing.



Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
His proximity to his door made it risky to handcuff him if another shooter opened the door and attacked.

Yet they were able to do just that with the first person who exited the room.

The cops here escalated the situation needlessly. The instructions were cross your legs left over right, don't uncross them, palms on the floor, hands in the air, crawl forward. If you make a mistake we will shoot you. It is impossible to comply with all of these at the same time. Literally seconds after saying keep your hands in the air, he was told to crawl. His legs are crossed. What was their end game?

I think they were taking advantage of the opportunity to use some power. They get to order someone around and make him do whatever they want. It's a power trip. Had the primary goal been to quickly and safely defuse the situation and get the suspect detained, there are proper ways to do so. Standard felony traffic stop procedures are designed for this. Simple clear instructions that keep the officers safe and limit chances of errors... errors from either party.

The outcome was 100% avoidable.
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:11 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What is the legal standard in other countries that would treat the scenario differently?
By other countries, do you mean civilised countries, or Somalia?

Some, possibly most, frown on cops executing unarmed, pleading people.
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Old 10th December 2017, 09:16 AM   #306
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I would personally like to see an unencumbered CNA license and at least 6 months of CNA work in a senior care facility as a prerequisite for police employment. Some actual proof that our police force possesses BASIC communication skills with those having impaired perception, cognition, and/or reaction times.
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:06 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Crawling on the floor sobbing and being screamed at for doing nothing more than exercising his right was bad enough. Being shot dead for failing to follow orders like a computer is beyond the pale.
Here's what I don't understand. The woman in the video manages to scooch forward on her knees with her hands in the air. (Shaver can't see her because he is looking at the floor.) Then the officer has him get to his knees and put his hands up. He tells the guy not to put his hands down FOR ANY REASON. Then he tells him to crawl, so the guy puts his hands down. Did he not understand the instructions? I would think under the circumstances you would want to be super careful about every movement so that you didn't make any reflexive moves. He put his right hand back and he got shot, just like the ** cop said he would. I would not say that the cop went there INTENDING to shoot someone, just that he had no concern whatsoever about doing so.

That said, once he was face down on the ground, it seems like someone else could have gone to check the room and they could have cuffed him there. If they were concerned about potential other people, they didn't seem too concerned about it after they shot Shaver.
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:09 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
By other countries, do you mean civilised countries, or Somalia?

Some, possibly most, frown on cops executing unarmed, pleading people.
I mean actual rules governing use of force. Please provide the differences in law.
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:24 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I mean actual rules governing use of force. Please provide the differences in law.
Is it differences in law, or the application thereof?
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:37 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Is it differences in law, or the application thereof?
That is why I'm asking people who say it is different in other countries to make their case why.
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:46 AM   #311
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Here is a rundown of what is and isn't criminal behavior by US law enforcement officers. Especially useful for any of you foreigners thinking of visiting, its best to be educated:

Losing at a 5 minute game of Simon Says while under extreme duress for having a pellet rifle in a state where having a real rifle is perfectly legal:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a2ebeb542456

Absentmindedly handling an air rifle that was left on a shelf at Wal-Mart while talking on the phone, then making the mistake of only dropping the rifle immediately.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...-walmart-video

Being deaf and holding a pipe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...ting-deaf.html

Seeking aid after being involved in a car crash:

https://news.vice.com/article/dashca...shown-at-trial

Flinching after being flashbanged.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/12/us/alb...ges/index.html

Forced medical procedures because police have a hunch that maybe you have drugs, and they're absolutely sure they can't be wrong.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1815078

Shooting two Asian women because they were driving a truck that vaguely matched that of a known cop killer (who was a black male).

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...127-story.html

"Accidentally" shooting a man instead of just tazing him, even though he was handcuffed and lying on the ground. OK that one got him a whole 11 months in prison.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/06/13/...ase/index.html

We do actually draw the line at police shooting someone in the back for stealing their tazer, while being filmed planting the tazer afterwards. So thats something.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/u...ter-scott.html

Still pending: shooting an unarmed man that was trying to help a mentally challenged man with a toy truck, then handcuffing him and letting him bleed on the pavement for half an hour.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...rapist-n745716

Last edited by lobosrul5; 10th December 2017 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:49 AM   #312
DragonLady
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Here's what I don't understand. The woman in the video manages to scooch forward on her knees with her hands in the air. (Shaver can't see her because he is looking at the floor.) Then the officer has him get to his knees and put his hands up. He tells the guy not to put his hands down FOR ANY REASON. Then he tells him to crawl, so the guy puts his hands down. Did he not understand the instructions? I would think under the circumstances you would want to be super careful about every movement so that you didn't make any reflexive moves. He put his right hand back and he got shot, just like the ** cop said he would. I would not say that the cop went there INTENDING to shoot someone, just that he had no concern whatsoever about doing so.
I understand why he put his hand back.

It was a reflex to try to keep his pants up. Just like the time I reached up and rubbed my eyes while I was slicing onions.

Muscles have memories, and as a result we do some things without even one thought -change gears or turn on signals while driving, flush the toilet, hit the "snooze" button - and keeping our clothes on and up is a set of reflex we've all been using since early childhood.

As someone said: basic CNA training or a month teaching kindergarten or a month working with people who do not speak the same language may help those officers who are interested in learning to communicate more effectively. I don't think it would've helped this officer, as I believe he made up his mind to kill someone before he ever entered the scene. He gunned the man down because he could. Period.

He should be in prison for ever. I cannot imagine what in hell the jury was thinking.
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:51 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I understand why he put his hand back.

It was a reflex to try to keep his pants up. Just like the time I reached up and rubbed my eyes while I was slicing onions.

Muscles have memories, and as a result we do some things without even one thought -change gears or turn on signals while driving, flush the toilet, hit the "snooze" button - and keeping our clothes on and up is a set of reflex we've all been using since early childhood.

As someone said: basic CNA training or a month teaching kindergarten or a month working with people who do not speak the same language may help those officers who are interested in learning to communicate more effectively. I don't think it would've helped this officer, as I believe he made up his mind to kill someone before he ever entered the scene. He gunned the man down because he could. Period.

He should be in prison for ever. I cannot imagine what in hell the jury was thinking.
The person who shot was not the one giving instructions.
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Old 10th December 2017, 10:51 AM   #314
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Here is a rundown of what is and isn't criminal behavior by US law enforcement officers. Especially for any of you foreigners thinking of visiting, its best to be educated:

Losing at a 5 minute game of Simon Says while under extreme duress for having a pellet rifle in a state where having a real rifle is perfectly legal:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a2ebeb542456

Absentmindedly handling an air rifle that was left on a shelf at Wal-Mart while talking on the phone, then making the mistake of only dropping the rifle immediately.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...-walmart-video

Being deaf and holding a pipe.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/u...ting-deaf.html

Seeking aid after being involved in a car crash:

https://news.vice.com/article/dashca...shown-at-trial

Flinching after being flashbanged.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/12/us/alb...ges/index.html

Forced medical procedures because police have a hunch that maybe you have drugs, and they're absolutely sure they can't be wrong.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1815078

Shooting two Asian women because they were driving a truck that vaguely matched that of a known cop killer (who was a black male).

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...127-story.html

"Accidentally" shooting a man instead of just tazing him, even though he was handcuffed and lying on the ground. OK that one got him a whole 11 months in prison.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/06/13/...ase/index.html

We do actually draw the line at police shooting someone in the back for stealing their tazer, while being filmed planting the tazer afterwards. So thats something.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/u...ter-scott.html
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Old 10th December 2017, 11:02 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's because you aren't a US citizen - they are so used to having guns that having one pointed at them couldn't cause any reasonable person to panic or be nervous.

Plus of course the murdered man broke the cardinal rule - he did something, and doing anything including doing nothing can put a cop in fear of his life....
The first paragraph is nearly right Darat, but of course that doesn't include cops. You did allude to that in your second paragraph.
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Old 10th December 2017, 11:03 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is why I'm asking people who say it is different in other countries to make their case why.
Other countries don't seem to have the same problems with people getting shot by cops for doing nothing, and under most of the circumstances pointed out by lobosrul5, it either wouldn't happen, or the cop would be charged and likely convicted.

So you go first, why is it different in your country?
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Old 10th December 2017, 11:09 AM   #317
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There have been hundreds of cases over the years.

One of the earliest I remember was in the '70 when an officer shot a very small child who was playing with someone's keys. The LEO was in "fear for his life".

That's when I made up my mind, I think, that any person afraid of losing his life, should not be involved with police work, the military, parachuting, or any other high-risk profession. Go into accounting instead; where the whole world will truly thank you.
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Old 10th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #318
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What makes it worse, IMO, is that many times people call the police to try to help someone. For parents, it's believed to be a form of "tough love". Force li'l Johnny to face the real consequences of his behavior, so that he will grow up knowing right from wrong.

Then, it backfires when the LEO destroy the whole family.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tyler-c...ole-his-truck/

Nevertheless, despite these hundreds of cases of everything going wrong, children are still taught the cops are "the good guys" and they should "trust the police".

Clearly, they're better off calling hippies.*

*one of the things that used to appear on bumper stickers years ago:
"If you think cops are pigs, when you need help call a hippie"

I don't think cops are pigs. But I do believe it's safer to call the mafia for help. And that's saying a LOT.
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Old 10th December 2017, 11:41 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
I would personally like to see an unencumbered CNA license and at least 6 months of CNA work in a senior care facility as a prerequisite for police employment. Some actual proof that our police force possesses BASIC communication skills with those having impaired perception, cognition, and/or reaction times.
Judging by this thread, you mean their potential colleagues?
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 10th December 2017, 12:46 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Other countries don't seem to have the same problems with people getting shot by cops for doing nothing, and under most of the circumstances pointed out by lobosrul5, it either wouldn't happen, or the cop would be charged and likely convicted.

So you go first, why is it different in your country?
I haven't asserted that it is or is not different. But if someone asserts that it is different, I ask that it be supported and would like an explanation of what is actually different as a matter of law.
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