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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:20 PM   #361
Bob001
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
....
*I've personally seen a shooter draw and hit a 12" gong at 35 yards in under 2 seconds. Granted that was a 38 Super "race gun" with an ISPC competition holster.
I just note that even two seconds is a longer time than it would take a cop to recognize a firearm and pull the trigger on his already drawn, already aimed weapon, which might well be an AR-15. And the average person a cop encounters -- whether a bad guy or a clueless citizen -- is not a trained competitive shooter with a tricked-out target pistol.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:26 PM   #362
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
.....

But police work is the only job where the holder is required to confront and control people who might be dangerous, in a society where literally anybody might be packing heat. ......
Partents, security guards, teachers, social workers, prison officers, mental health workers, indeed anyone with a duty of care whose job it is to protect property and people. So that includes an office manager who has a member of staff who gets angry.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:29 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
A skilled shooter with a handgun can hit a target well beyond 20 feet very quickly*... in daylight. With a spotlight directed at your face (and I've had those types of car powered spotlights pointed at me before), one can't really see anything, so no. Not to mention if you look at the left of the video, that cop at least appears to be under cover. Yeah, they would've been in no real jeopardy by waiting to see if "the shooter" actually had a gun before opening fire.

*I've personally seen a shooter draw and hit a 12" gong at 35 yards in under 2 seconds. Granted that was a 38 Super "race gun" with an ISPC competition holster.
That is what I was thinking a few pages back. The cops are not as at risk as is being suggested by them. Fact is they have a massive advantage and they can afford to wait a second to see if a hand appears with a gun.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:59 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But police work is the only job where the holder is required to confront and control people who might be dangerous, in a society where literally anybody might be packing heat. That doesn't excuse killing somebody on the basis of a wrong guess. I don't justify or minimize police misconduct, and I hope this cop gets prosecuted.
I know your stance on the subject, but I still wanted to point out a slight niggle and that is that no, police work isn't quite the only job required to confront..etc. but also some bouncers in places where carrying firearms is legal, or some private security (either armed or unarmed), or even hospital ED personnel and first responders often have to confront and control people who are literally not in their right minds and can be aggressive.

ETA: Ninja'd by Nessie! That'll teach me to interrupt a post to go get the mail!



Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thanks, interesting to see how the legislators recognised the stupidity of the argument in one direction. Is there similar legislation to protect the non peace officer from the peace officer or is it only the untrained, non professional member of the general public who are expected to be able to use "common sense"?
As the usual answer when it comes to America... it depends on what state and/or county you're in. I think most states have laws on the books stating that a person cannot lawfully resist an unlawful arrest, some states still do say that a person may use whatever reasonable force is required to resist an unlawful arrest -- including killing the police officer if need be. Most jurisdictions (in my understanding) also make the distinction of using force against a police officer who is himself/herself using a level of violence not commensurate with the minimal use of force necessary to effect an arrest; in other words, some states say you cannot resist an unlawful arrest, but you can resist when force being used against you is causing or could cause great bodily harm or death.

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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:28 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I know your stance on the subject, but I still wanted to point out a slight niggle and that is that no, police work isn't quite the only job required to confront..etc. but also some bouncers in places where carrying firearms is legal, or some private security (either armed or unarmed), or even hospital ED personnel and first responders often have to confront and control people who are literally not in their right minds and can be aggressive.

ETA: Ninja'd by Nessie! That'll teach me to interrupt a post to go get the mail!




As the usual answer when it comes to America... it depends on what state and/or county you're in. I think most states have laws on the books stating that a person cannot lawfully resist an unlawful arrest, some states still do say that a person may use whatever reasonable force is required to resist an unlawful arrest -- including killing the police officer if need be. Most jurisdictions (in my understanding) also make the distinction of using force against a police officer who is himself/herself using a level of violence not commensurate with the minimal use of force necessary to effect an arrest; in other words, some states say you cannot resist an unlawful arrest, but you can resist when force being used against you is causing or could cause great bodily harm or death.
I was really thinking before any arrest or attempted arrest is made. Say I see a police officier in her car, and I need directions so I walk over to the car. I get her attention and I start to ask her for directions but I notice she seems nervous with me approaching her in the car, she seems to be looking all around her, I'm not sure what her problem is but I see her hand move towards her waist, I grab my gun and I shoot her. For some reason when I am in court no one seems to think that me thinking she looked nervous, that her actions weren't quite right were grounds for me shooting her....
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:32 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Partents, security guards, teachers, social workers, prison officers, mental health workers, indeed anyone with a duty of care whose job it is to protect property and people. So that includes an office manager who has a member of staff who gets angry.
Without quibbling too much, the fact is that except for prison guards, who basically perform police functions within their closed community, all of those other people -- including bouncers and civilian security guards -- might initiate action ("Hey, you, cut that out!"), but if it doesn't work they retreat and call the cops. The people who respond to "man with a gun!" calls aren't social workers. Parents, teachers, hospital orderlies etc. don't have arrest powers and they aren't authorized to use force. We invest street cops with unique authority; that's the reason to hold them to a higher standard.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:43 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Meaningless distinction is not permission to inaccurately describe something.
And the description is important because why?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:00 PM   #368
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Quote:
that's the reason to hold them to a higher standard.
What higher standard are they being held to?

Seems to me that should read: "we give them greater license".

Two very different things.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:09 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
What higher standard are they being held to?

Seems to me that should read: "we give them greater license".

Two very different things.
Sorry if I could have been misinterpreted. We should hold cops to a higher standard. We should demand accountability. We should require consequences for unjustified violence. We give them extraordinary powers, in exchange for which we should insist on professionalism and restraint. Regrettably, that's not the situation we are in now, where "I was scared!" is used to justify pretty much anything.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:15 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I just note that even two seconds is a longer time than it would take a cop to recognize a firearm and pull the trigger on his already drawn, already aimed weapon, which might well be an AR-15. And the average person a cop encounters -- whether a bad guy or a clueless citizen -- is not a trained competitive shooter with a tricked-out target pistol.
The underlined... the police can't know that for absolutely sure. Its so unlikely that its not a very good excuse though. But they should know for absolute certain that no one can freaking see with a spotlight in their face at night. Which seems to be what caused him to put his hand down in the first place.

I'm reminded of the "21 foot rule" that gets dragged out just about anytime a cop kills someone with a knife in their hand even at some distance. It only applies to holstered firearms, not one pointed at the subject.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:23 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I was really thinking before any arrest or attempted arrest is made. Say I see a police officier in her car, and I need directions so I walk over to the car. I get her attention and I start to ask her for directions but I notice she seems nervous with me approaching her in the car, she seems to be looking all around her, I'm not sure what her problem is but I see her hand move towards her waist, I grab my gun and I shoot her. For some reason when I am in court no one seems to think that me thinking she looked nervous, that her actions weren't quite right were grounds for me shooting her....
Well, most likely that wouldn't fly in any jurisdiction because of the whole "know or should have reasonably known that the person was a police officer" thing, but maaaaayyyybbeee someone might find a lucky judge/jury in some strange legal-backwater state jurisdiction where a person could skate on murder charges but I don't find it personally likely based on my prior statement of "know or should... blah..." stuff written into the laws.

An undercover cop pulling you over, or you approaching what turns out to be an undercover cop or off duty cop... yeah... depending on some other circumstances (location, time of night, your gender/abilities/strength compared to the cop's...) I can see that as being more realistic.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:28 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
And the description is important because why?
Seems like a silly standard. Nothing on this forum is important or matters.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:45 PM   #373
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I just note that even two seconds is a longer time than it would take a cop to recognize a firearm and pull the trigger on his already drawn, already aimed weapon, which might well be an AR-15. And the average person a cop encounters -- whether a bad guy or a clueless citizen -- is not a trained competitive shooter with a tricked-out target pistol.

You just don't watch enough crime dramas on TV.

And that's what you need to get in the cop mindset. That's what's reeling through their mind when they produce these travesties of justice and execute innocent citizens.

Everyone who is not a cop is a highly trained ex-SEAL criminal or a Mafioso hit man. Or both. And every cop is Clint Eastwood and Mel Gibson.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:58 PM   #374
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I think that's partly it, but it seems also that their level of training to continue to function while scared is excessively inconsistent because of the highly devolved nature of US policing.

Dave
Plenty of factors are involved, I was being hyperbolic. But here are a few I can think of:

1. 2nd amendment.
2. lack of training.
3. awful compensations which leads to,
4. attracting a certain, power-hungry demographic
5. militarization of the police due to,
6. politicians wanting to wage war on crime
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:03 PM   #375
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Thanks, interesting to see how the legislators recognised the stupidity of the argument in one direction. Is there similar legislation to protect the non peace officer from the peace officer or is it only the untrained, non professional member of the general public who are expected to be able to use "common sense"?
An officer found to have used force unlawfully by omission or commission could and should be be held to account in court.

The sad fact is that there are instances where they aren't.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:06 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You just don't watch enough crime dramas on TV.

And that's what you need to get in the cop mindset. That's what's reeling through their mind when they produce these travesties of justice and execute innocent citizens.

Everyone who is not a cop is a highly trained ex-SEAL criminal or a Mafioso hit man. Or both. And every cop is Clint Eastwood and Mel Gibson.
Never ran into that one, although I do know a officer who in real life got as many beautiful women as James Bond did in fiction.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:20 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
Never ran into that one, although I do know a officer who in real life got as many beautiful women as James Bond did in fiction.

Took his kick-backs out in trade?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:35 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Took his kick-backs out in trade?
He probably didn't know your mom.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:46 PM   #379
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The police still haven't released his body to the family and they seized various items from the home without yet returning them.

Originally Posted by KCRA 3
Finch's mother, Lisa Finch, wrote a letter Tuesday to Mayor Jeff Longwell, police Chief Gordon Ramsay and other city officials saying an unannounced visit from the police chief three days after the shooting did not ease her heart and left questions unanswered.

"It goes without saying that our family is devastated by what has happened," she wrote. "What cannot go without saying is why Wichita City leadership is compounding our grief and sorrow, by keeping my son from us? Please let me see my son's lifeless body. I want to hold him and say goodbye. Please immediately return his body to us."

Her letter also posed numerous questions, including asking when officials will return the front door, a computer, two cellphones, a video game and other items that were seized from the family's home. The family also wants information on the protocol and training for officers as it relates to "swatting" calls...

http://www.kcra.com/article/attorney...arged/14534415
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:50 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The police still haven't released his body to the family and they seized various items from the home without yet returning them.

http://www.kcra.com/article/attorney...arged/14534415

Err... Do these people not realize they shot and killed an innocent person? It's like they're hoping to find something to justify the shooting.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:57 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Err... Do these people not realize they shot and killed an innocent person? It's like they're hoping to find something to justify the shooting.
That's exactly what they're doing. Disgusting.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:35 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
That's exactly what they're doing. Disgusting.
Trumpublicans complained about the last POTUS turning the nation into a police-state, but have always defended the police, even in the most awful shootings of unarmed citizens. It's a weird cognitive bias.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:23 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trumpublicans complained about the last POTUS turning the nation into a police-state, but have always defended the police, even in the most awful shootings of unarmed citizens. It's a weird cognitive bias.
No no no. It's quite simple. See, local police are good guys who pretty much just bother gang bangers and low lifes. Federal police on the other hand are jack booted thugs going around taking away our god given rights as Americans. Except Homeland Security and Border Patrol, the heroes protecting us from the brown people.

You really can't rationally explain the rights' support of Cloven Bundy while simultaneously supporting Eric Garner being choked to death for the heinous crime of selling cigarettes on the sidewalk. Not without some racism that is.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 12:12 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without quibbling too much, the fact is that except for prison guards, who basically perform police functions within their closed community, all of those other people -- including bouncers and civilian security guards -- might initiate action ("Hey, you, cut that out!"), but if it doesn't work they retreat and call the cops. The people who respond to "man with a gun!" calls aren't social workers. Parents, teachers, hospital orderlies etc. don't have arrest powers and they aren't authorized to use force. We invest street cops with unique authority; that's the reason to hold them to a higher standard.
Well, the cops also have the right and responsibility to retreat or hold off if the situation warrants in order to best deal with the situation.
In this case - they had not established that time was of the essence and that they needed to act poste haste.

Hell - they didn't even know if they were at the right house before they killed this guy.
Taking the time to assess and formulate a plan is always first on any list of tactical actions unless the known circumstances dictate otherwise.

Canada has a lot of guns. We have a gun violence and hostage taking and none of the ER Teams I was in (and then later commanded) ever just started ordering unknown people in residences to come out without first making an attempt at reconnaissance or intelligence gathering.

First on the list: Make contact. Get the phone number (dispatch would be doing this automatically while you were heading out to the scene). If you can't get a phone number - initiate contact by amplified means telling them to stay inside their house and don't come to the door or look outside until directed otherwise. Tell them to call 911 or another number that you may (should) have specific for that purpose. If they don't have a phone - get them a phone. Throw it through a window. Place it outside the door.
You have options. Use them. Shooting should ALWAYS be the last resort.

BTW: In Canada, as well as the UK and the good old USofA, ordinary people do have arrest powers and do have the right to use force to make that arrest in certain circumstances. Such powers go back to English common law which encouraged people to assist in keeping the peace.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 12:32 AM   #385
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So I imagine being very inebriated and/or waking up to a terrifying police presence - thinking, "I must keep my hands up, must not reach toward my waist, wait my pants are falling off - no, mustn't lower hands" - and being so focused on trying not to do it that you go ahead and do it.

There have been so many cases recently of people trying to comply in the face of aggressive, conflicting instructions, then doing the "wrong" thing and getting killed anyway. This sounds bad to say but I was relieved that in a couple of recent cases the victim was white. It's not necessarily a bad thing for white people to realize they're not immune.

I have a nephew who wants to be a cop and I can imagine him getting caught up in such an escalating situation.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 01:36 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
So I imagine being very inebriated and/or waking up to a terrifying police presence - thinking, "I must keep my hands up, must not reach toward my waist, wait my pants are falling off - no, mustn't lower hands" - and being so focused on trying not to do it that you go ahead and do it.

There have been so many cases recently of people trying to comply in the face of aggressive, conflicting instructions, then doing the "wrong" thing and getting killed anyway. This sounds bad to say but I was relieved that in a couple of recent cases the victim was white. It's not necessarily a bad thing for white people to realize they're not immune.

I have a nephew who wants to be a cop and I can imagine him getting caught up in such an escalating situation.

And he could be caught up in it without doing anything stupid himself.

These situations nearly always have other cops, right there, who manage to not lose all control in a state of panic and start killing innocents.

And yet, after the gun smoke is cleared they stay quiet or, worse still, vigorously defend the one who did.

Blue Line solidarity before citizen safety. Gotta keep the priorities straight.

As far as I'm concerned the ones who stand silent are at least equally culpable. They are helping to perpetuate the cop culture which allows these things to happen over and over.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:31 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Well, most likely that wouldn't fly in any jurisdiction because of the whole "know or should have reasonably known that the person was a police officer" thing, but maaaaayyyybbeee someone might find a lucky judge/jury in some strange legal-backwater state jurisdiction where a person could skate on murder charges but I don't find it personally likely based on my prior statement of "know or should... blah..." stuff written into the laws.

...snip...
One could point out with the knowledge that the police do seem to kill people when the police are nervous or uncomfortable or afraid thinking a police officer may be about to shoot you is certainly within the realms of possibility so why shouldn't the scenario I painted be grounds - as it is for the police when the roles are reversed - for the killing to be legal or at least no charges to follow?

As said above we are actually holding our police to lower standards then we hold non-police officers.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:43 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Without quibbling too much, the fact is that except for prison guards, who basically perform police functions within their closed community, all of those other people -- including bouncers and civilian security guards -- might initiate action ("Hey, you, cut that out!"), but if it doesn't work they retreat and call the cops. The people who respond to "man with a gun!" calls aren't social workers. Parents, teachers, hospital orderlies etc. don't have arrest powers and they aren't authorized to use force. We invest street cops with unique authority; that's the reason to hold them to a higher standard.
You made a deeply flawed blanket claim that only the police are required deal with people who might be dangerous. I pointed out numerous examples of others who are also required to deal with dangerous others.

You have now made your claim worse by alleging all those people do is shout a request to stop and then retreat to call the police. I do not believe you, from what I have seen in numerous videos and news stories, Joe public intervene and deal with dangerous people on aregular basis. They are usually referred to as heroes. One which springs to mind is the Senator how was shot in the head, I am sure those who came to her rescue were un-armed.

Parents and teachers and indeed anyone is authorised to use force to protect themselves and others, you should read up on Human Rights legislation and the law to do with self defence of a person and others.

In the UK there is such a thing as citizens arrest, the common law power to use reasonable force to remove someone from a premisis (so a shopkeeper can physically remove a customer from his shop) and it is not assault to physically prevent another from say walking out into traffic. I suspect that is also the case in the USA.

You got it wrong, please stop digging yourself further into a hole.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:50 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
One could point out with the knowledge that the police do seem to kill people when the police are nervous or uncomfortable or afraid thinking a police officer may be about to shoot you is certainly within the realms of possibility so why shouldn't the scenario I painted be grounds - as it is for the police when the roles are reversed - for the killing to be legal or at least no charges to follow?

As said above we are actually holding our police to lower standards then we hold non-police officers.
Self defence is a blanket right, so self defence against armed police who can shoot with impunity is a right.

I thought the suggestion that Swatting calls should be made to cause police officers to go to other police officers homes was ridiculous.

But the situation in the USA is so bad (not that Americans understand that, because they are so used to it and they are pretty much immune from shock by shootings) maybe a few cops do need to be shot by nervous citizens who have grossly over reacted to an approach by the police.

"Excuse me ma'am, but we have found your....." Bang!
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:58 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Self defence is a blanket right, so self defence against armed police who can shoot with impunity is a right.

I thought the suggestion that Swatting calls should be made to cause police officers to go to other police officers homes was ridiculous.

But the situation in the USA is so bad (not that Americans understand that, because they are so used to it and they are pretty much immune from shock by shootings) maybe a few cops do need to be shot by nervous citizens who have grossly over reacted to an approach by the police.

"Excuse me ma'am, but we have found your....." Bang!
(And before everyone jumps on you we all know you don't really mean that any individual cop should be wounded or killed, anyone going down that route is obviously debating dishonestly.)

Problem is that such a killing or attack would be treated as it would be in any other developed country i.e. the person being charged with murder or a serious assault. It is only when the killer is a police officer does it become a justifiable killing.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 03:02 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Err... Do these people not realize they shot and killed an innocent person? It's like they're hoping to find something to justify the shooting.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
That's exactly what they're doing. Disgusting.

It's basically a knee-jerk response by cops who screw up.

Mebbe they can find a joint or an expired prescription, then they were defending themselves from s drug-crazed thug.

It isn't really just a 2nd Amendment issue with so many guns out there that they expect people to be armed, it's that and that they view all non-cops as likely criminals until proven otherwise.

And even then they're not so sure.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 03:40 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
(And before everyone jumps on you we all know you don't really mean that any individual cop should be wounded or killed, anyone going down that route is obviously debating dishonestly.)

Problem is that such a killing or attack would be treated as it would be in any other developed country i.e. the person being charged with murder or a serious assault. It is only when the killer is a police officer does it become a justifiable killing.
I cannot find any real world examples of a citizen who has shot a cop and claimed self defence.

That in itself is interesting, considering the number of citizens with guns in the USA (legal and illegal).

It suggests citizens show restraint, because they know they will get punished, cops kill because they know they will it is rare they will be punished.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:27 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I cannot find any real world examples of a citizen who has shot a cop and claimed self defence.
I'm aware of one. If I recall correctly, a no knock warrant in the wrong garden.

I'll see if I can find a record of it.

ETA:

http://www.kristv.com/story/34045158...und-not-guilty
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:30 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It's basically a knee-jerk response by cops who screw up.
The Thin Blue Line is a real thing and I have seen it in action in Australia, but not for many years and not for events like this.

As I have said so many times it must be boring (but some may not know) I worked for seven years on Force Command with Victoria Police. Not a sworn position, but I was privy to and witnessed a lot if stuff. I lost count of the number of times Commissioners told me "it was tough, but we got this dickhead off, and it won't happen again".

As I said, I understand the police tendancy to do what they can to get their brother or sister off. But times have moved on and there should be no tolerance of police criminality.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 05:22 AM   #395
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The thing that bothers me about cases like this, is I can't see myself as having acted much differently. Even fully knowing how police interactions could end. I'd be terrified, probably unaware of what's going on exactly, and if I'm stepping off my porch I'll probably slip and try to catch myself. It happens often enough when I don't have a light in my face and guns drawn on me.
And good odds then I'm dead.
Makes me wonder how many people, yes criminals, but people, could have been brought in safely if the cops had shown restraint.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 05:56 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by ShadowSot View Post
The thing that bothers me about cases like this, is I can't see myself as having acted much differently. Even fully knowing how police interactions could end. I'd be terrified, probably unaware of what's going on exactly, and if I'm stepping off my porch I'll probably slip and try to catch myself. It happens often enough when I don't have a light in my face and guns drawn on me.
And good odds then I'm dead.
Makes me wonder how many people, yes criminals, but people, could have been brought in safely if the cops had shown restraint.
I think this is why this case is so evocative. Any of us, with no guilt at all, could have found ourselves in this situation, and dead.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 06:57 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I cannot find any real world examples of a citizen who has shot a cop and claimed self defence.

That in itself is interesting, considering the number of citizens with guns in the USA (legal and illegal).

It suggests citizens show restraint, because they know they will get punished, cops kill because they know they will it is rare they will be punished.
Upthread, a link to a NYT article was posted that discussed two cases of no-knock warrants where the resident of the home shot in response to the police ramming the door and barging in, and killed a police officer. In one of those cases, the grand jury accepted the defendant's self-defence claim, in the other not, with the argument mainly revolving around the question whether the police had announced themselves simultaneously to their home invasion or not.

In the case that was successful, the accused, Mr. Magee, had a high-prize lawyer because his parents were well-to-do. There was also some poetic justice concerning the death of the police officer. From memory: A jailhouse snitch had told his parole officer that the accused grew half a dozen pot plants in his trailer. He also told that the accused (1) kept a gun under his bed, (2) would use it in case of a home invasion, but (3) that he would show no resistance to an arrest, a fact that the snitch even repeated twice during the conversation. The parole officer gave a video recording of the conversation to officer Sowders of a small town police force of about a dozen cops that are more concerned with runaway bulls than hardened criminals. Officer Sowders decided that a no-knock arrest was appropriate and wrote an application including facts (1) and (2) but crucially not (3). The magistrate allowed the application and the whole police force assembled outside the trailer for the no-knock arrest. They threw a flash-bang grenade into the living room instead of the bedroom because they had mixed up left and right from the accurate description given by the snitch, and then rammed the door. Magee did as was predicted by the snitch: he grabbed his gun and fired at the door. The officer who went down was Sowders, the same who had written the mendacious no-knock warrant application and who had decided that it was an appropriate strategy in the first place.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 07:16 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm aware of one. If I recall correctly, a no knock warrant in the wrong garden.

I'll see if I can find a record of it.

ETA:

http://www.kristv.com/story/34045158...und-not-guilty
I don't see this one was in the wrong garden. According to Radley Balko in the WaPo, the police wanted to raid Rosas' house (with a no-knock warrant) because they were looking for Rosas' nephew, whom they suspected of dealing marijuana. Despite there being no evidence at all of the nephew staying at Rosas' place, and Rosas having testified before against a gang member. And to make matters worse, during the raid one police officer shot another in the leg, and the DA charged Rosas with that too.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 07:22 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I don't see this one was in the wrong garden. According to Radley Balko in the WaPo, the police wanted to raid Rosas' house (with a no-knock warrant) because they were looking for Rosas' nephew, whom they suspected of dealing marijuana. Despite there being no evidence at all of the nephew staying at Rosas' place, and Rosas having testified before against a gang member. And to make matters worse, during the raid one police officer shot another in the leg, and the DA charged Rosas with that too.

Yeah. I now realise that that's not the one I was actually looking for.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 07:33 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The police still haven't released his body to the family and they seized various items from the home without yet returning them.

http://www.kcra.com/article/attorney...arged/14534415
Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Err... Do these people not realize they shot and killed an innocent person? It's like they're hoping to find something to justify the shooting.
It very much looks that way.

I can think of one reasonable explanation for detaining the cell phone and computer. We all know by now that the swatter and the intended victim had an argument over Call of Duty, and that the intended victim dared the swatter by giving "his" address - a wrong address, that of Finch, the actual victim. What we do not know is if the address the intended victim gave was just random, or that he had an axe to grind with Finch and therefore deliberately gave Finch's address. The cell phone and computer might give a clue to that, and one that Finch's mother likely doesn't know either, especially when it's also about an online game.

However, if that's the case, then the police could have just said so to Finch's mother and pre-empted the lawyer's letter.
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