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Old 30th December 2017, 02:15 PM   #41
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There is a bodycam video of the encounter and shooting but I haven't watched it.

It's reported that when Finch opened the front door he was ordered to raise his hands and walk out. He did that. Then he stopped and put his hands to his waistband. Then he was ordered to raise his hands again. He did and then put them back down to his waistband again. He did that up-down thing at least twice before he was shot because the officer thought he had pulled the gun on the last placement of hands to belt area.
Maybe his pants were falling down as he walked out with his hands up ...?
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Given the intentions of "swatters", they should be held responsible for any and all damage that results from police actions. In this case, manslaughter.
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There is a bodycam video of the encounter and shooting but I haven't watched it.

It's reported that when Finch opened the front door he was ordered to raise his hands and walk out. He did that. Then he stopped and put his hands to his waistband. Then he was ordered to raise his hands again. He did and then put them back down to his waistband again. He did that up-down thing at least twice before he was shot because the officer thought he had pulled the gun on the last placement of hands to belt area.
Except that there was no gun and therefore there was no excuse to shoot. Unless they provide bodycam footage showing a gun, I don't care if the guy was doing the *********** Charleston.
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Given the intentions of "swatters", they should be held responsible for any and all damage that results from police actions. In this case, manslaughter.
Yep. Or the electric chair with a sign around his neck like "How'd that whole being a dick on the internet thing workout for ya'?"
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Old 30th December 2017, 02:46 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Not claiming the cops did everything correct (or not) but this was no normal call. The person who made the call is 99% 100% of the problem here.
You feel, then, that the police are so dangerously uncontrollable when they believe a violent crime to have been committed that they bear no responsibility whatsoever for the deaths of someone they accidentally shoot, and that someone who simply brings a person to the attention of the police is entirely responsible for whatever action, however unreasonable, the police subsequently take? This seems to be a classic example of the attitude that the police are as dangerous as wild animals, and that they can't be expected not to kill innocents.

I can say with near certainty that a call of this type in the UK would not have resulted in any deaths, and probably not even in any injuries. But it's OK that it did in the USA because guns.

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Old 30th December 2017, 02:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Given the intentions of "swatters", they should be held responsible for any and all damage that results from police actions. In this case, manslaughter.
Not arguing that the swatter bears responsibility, but do you believe the police bear any?

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Old 30th December 2017, 02:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Except that there was no gun and therefore there was no excuse to shoot. Unless they provide bodycam footage showing a gun, I don't care if the guy was doing the *********** Charleston.
Exactly.
As a police officer it is essential that you understand the difference between a military action and a police action.
The job of a soldier is to kill the enemy and survive the encounter no matter what goes down. However, the police mindset must be different because the job is different!

As a police officer you must accept that your job is pretty easy most of the time but - at times - it can be very dangerous.
It is not your job to do whatever it takes it make sure that your life is never endangered - it is your job as a police officer to accept the fact that you have to give the benefit of the doubt to the people you have sworn to protect and to serve. If that means actually waiting to see a weapon - so be it. You must be willing to put your personal safety secondary to the person you encounter in order to do your job as a police officer.
If you want a guarantee that you will be safe all the time - go flip burgers at McDonalds.

Sir Robert Peel's model of policing by consent should be the aim of every police force and every police officer:

"In this model of policing, police officers are regarded as citizens in uniform. They exercise their powers to police their fellow citizens with the implicit consent of those fellow citizens. "Policing by consent" indicates that the legitimacy of policing in the eyes of the public is based upon a general consensus of support that follows from transparency about their powers, their integrity in exercising those powers and their accountability for doing so."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
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Old 30th December 2017, 03:09 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post

I can say with near certainty that a call of this type in the UK would not have resulted in any deaths, and probably not even in any injuries. But it's OK that it did in the USA because guns.

Dave
Correct. But I'd go further. The possibility of somebody being approached by police in the US having a gun is now used as an excuse for incompetent, murderous policing. Why bother training cops properly when the slightest movement by a suspect is full justification for killing him or her?
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Old 30th December 2017, 03:36 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
You feel, then, that the police are so dangerously uncontrollable when they believe a violent crime to have been committed that they bear no responsibility whatsoever for the deaths of someone they accidentally shoot, and that someone who simply brings a person to the attention of the police is entirely responsible for whatever action, however unreasonable, the police subsequently take? This seems to be a classic example of the attitude that the police are as dangerous as wild animals, and that they can't be expected not to kill innocents.

I can say with near certainty that a call of this type in the UK would not have resulted in any deaths, and probably not even in any injuries. But it's OK that it did in the USA because guns.

Dave
Indeed, a similar prank call to Justine Roberts and her husband Ian Katz's address in London resulted in zero death or injury.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33985706
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Old 30th December 2017, 03:37 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Agreed on the titling problem!!!!!!!
Could you elaborate on what exactly is wrong with it?
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Old 30th December 2017, 03:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Could you elaborate on what exactly is wrong with it?
See post #14.

BBC has since changed the title.
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Old 30th December 2017, 03:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Could you elaborate on what exactly is wrong with it?
It suggests that the police shot a corpse.
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Old 30th December 2017, 03:54 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
See post #14.

BBC has since changed the title.
Oh, right. I think my brain managed to overlook the "dead man"/"man dead" bit, as I was assuming there was a quibble over the use of "alleged" in the headline.
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Old 30th December 2017, 04:46 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Very unfortunate.
I tend to think these sorts of incidents are bound to happen, although they should definitely be used as examples in training to ensure better performance in the future.

That is exactly the sort of cop-groupie apologetics which allows this sort of criminal behavior by cops to continue.

Quote:

I think some of the sentiment about the cops being trigger happy, or "******** themselves" with fear, is a little bit misguided. Although I do understand where it comes from, and while I think better training can always mitigate for mistakes, part of problem just comes from the fact that people, cops or otherwise, simply react in high stress situations. And, the human mind has a tendency to fill in visual details that cannot immediately be discerned under such circumstances.
Having good reason to believe this individual might react violently, the officer's mind might have seen gun when his eyes didnt have time to, and he reacted. It happens and it is very unfortunate for everyone involved.

Is there a way to train this out of people 100%
Probably not.

100% is a red herring. Of course perfection isn't possible.

That is nothing but a sleazy debating tactic used to try and distract from the real issue.

Quote:

Can we improve? Always.

Considering that every single first-world culture on the rest of the planet manages to avoid all but a tiny fraction of the sort of incidents you are just shrugging off, it would seem that the opportunities for improvement are vast, and apparently not all that difficult.

It isn't even a question of can we improve. As you yourself rather coyly intimated, it is obvious that we can. The real question seems to be, "Do we really care enough to?".

Until enough people quit reacting like you do, probably not.

Your post exemplifies the attitude that we probably don't.
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Old 30th December 2017, 04:58 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The thing that's especially disgusting about that particular excuse is that when a cop stops you, he almost always will ask for your license or ID before anything else. But somebody who anticipates that request and reaches for his wallet will be perceived as "goin' for a gun!" So if this guy saw all the cops in front of his house, his instinct might have been to go out and say "What's up? I live here," and pull out his wallet to prove it. Bang!

They don't even have to be anticipating anything.

They can be responding to instructions from the cop to produce their ID and then get shot for "goin' for a gun".
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Old 30th December 2017, 04:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
We need more training. It's outrageous that regular citizens cannot follow simple commands.

It's even outrageous when they can.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:01 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
It depends, the text includes

as I understand it from US news sources this is correct.

Apparently the caller's motivation was a CoD dispute, however he got his would be victim's address wrong. Is the fact that it was that particular game relevant? No more so than which film the Aurora killed shot up, but that doesn't make it wrong (unless I'm missing something obvious?).

Yes. You are.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:23 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
<snip>

Who again is responsible for this incident?

<snip>

Which one?

There were two incidents.

One was the false report. The other was the cops shooting an unarmed man.

Yes, they are connected, and yes, the first precipitated the second.

But it is a mistake to conflate them. Out-of-control, adrenaline-soaked cops have gone to wrong addresses before on calls that weren't even bogus, and hurt innocent people.

They've even gone on such calls and not hurt innocent people.

The phone call was not the problem here. It was an element in the story, but the cops over-reacting and shooting unarmed innocents is strictly on the cops.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:44 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Is this really how the cops in the USA understand the words "to protect and to serve"?
More like "To Punish and Enslave", Transformers style.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:49 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Which one?

There were two incidents.

One was the false report. The other was the cops shooting an unarmed man.

Yes, they are connected, and yes, the first precipitated the second.

But it is a mistake to conflate them. Out-of-control, adrenaline-soaked cops have gone to wrong addresses before on calls that weren't even bogus, and hurt innocent people.

They've even gone on such calls and not hurt innocent people.

The phone call was not the problem here. It was an element in the story, but the cops over-reacting and shooting unarmed innocents is strictly on the cops.
Indeed. I think the only way to make a murder/manslaughter charge stick against the "prank" caller is if the argument is made that one could reasonably assume that a police-involved shooting would occur after sending them to a place where the caller didn't actually believe a crime was in progress. Endorsing such an assumption with a conviction would be judicial acknowledgement that US police officers are completely out of control.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:51 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Which one?

There were two incidents.

One was the false report. The other was the cops shooting an unarmed man.

Yes, they are connected, and yes, the first precipitated the second.

But it is a mistake to conflate them. Out-of-control, adrenaline-soaked cops have gone to wrong addresses before on calls that weren't even bogus, and hurt innocent people.

They've even gone on such calls and not hurt innocent people.

The phone call was not the problem here. It was an element in the story, but the cops over-reacting and shooting unarmed innocents is strictly on the cops.
I would suggest that there is also a third incident. The would-be victim gave an address that wasn't his own to a person who was threatening to "SWAT". The pranker did exactly what he said he would do and the police went to the address given in the online gamer chat. That would-be victim could have refused to give out any address at all. But instead he gives the address of an innocent party who has nothing to do with anything.

He's probably not going to be charged for that but he might get sued.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:52 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Had no idea swatting had become so common. Given that, there's really no excuse for a modern police department not to be aware of it.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:53 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Correct. But I'd go further. The possibility of somebody being approached by police in the US having a gun is now used as an excuse for incompetent, murderous policing. Why bother training cops properly when the slightest movement by a suspect is full justification for killing him or her?
Which is especially odd as it's perfect legal to open carry in Kansas* and Arizona, the locations of the last two of these types of stories. So it's OK for police to shoot people for having a gun, when it's legal for them to have a gun.

*They even recently passed a law prohibiting localaties from overruling that.
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Old 30th December 2017, 05:59 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I would suggest that there is also a third incident. The would-be victim gave an address that wasn't his own to a person who was threatening to "SWAT". The pranker did exactly what he said he would do and the police went to the address given in the online gamer chat. That would-be victim could have refused to give out any address at all. But instead he gives the address of an innocent party who has nothing to do with anything.

He's probably not going to be charged for that but he might get sued.
As a gamer, I've been aware of this for a good 5 or 6 years.

Here's a YT compilation of Swattings caught on livestreams.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


ETA: gotta give the cops credit on 3 or 4 of those in which they didn't scream at anyone with guns drawn.

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Old 30th December 2017, 06:06 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Not arguing that the swatter bears responsibility, but do you believe the police bear any?

Dave
Oh, absolutely. And in this day and age they should be doubly careful. I wasn't trying to absolve the police, but making a comment that the caller should be held responsible. In the case of swatting, the punishment should be exemplary and publicised.
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:13 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Indeed, a similar prank call to Justine Roberts and her husband Ian Katz's address in London resulted in zero death or injury.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-33985706

Most SWATings in the US don't end with anyone getting shot either. Patrick Frey, who blogs at http://patterico.com/ was SWATed for political reasons back in 2011 and it's become a standard threat by some liberal activists. There are a number of conservative bloggers who have had to inform their local police departments that any call supposedly from their address involving violence is almost certainly a hoax.

The point is though, that the police in the US arrested 10,662,252 people, of which 515,151 of those arrests were for violent crimes.* Of that number, a tiny minority of those arrests became violent. Of that tiny minority, a tiny minority saw someone, either the person being arrested or the officer making the arrest die. Of that tiny minority of a tiny minority, a tiny minority turned out to be the fault of one of the arresting officers, either malice or incompetence.

This shouldn't be taken as a defense of dirty or incompetent police officers, every single one of these incidents should be investigated and, if there's evidence of wrongdoing, prosecuted. But by the same token, to try to imply that every single time there's an officer involved shooting it has to be the officer's fault is simple anti-police bigotry.


*Numbers from the 2016 FBI crime in the US report at https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...rsons-arrested
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:20 PM   #67
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Is there any indication if the false address given was picked at random or if it was connected to the player in any way?

Legally there might not be any culpability but playing the "Oh yeah tough guy I'd like to see you try something come at me Bro" but while giving someone else's address is sort of a dick move.
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:26 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by cmikes View Post
Most SWATings in the US don't end with anyone getting shot either. Patrick Frey, who blogs at http://patterico.com/ was SWATed for political reasons back in 2011 and it's become a standard threat by some liberal activists. There are a number of conservative bloggers who have had to inform their local police departments that any call supposedly from their address involving violence is almost certainly a hoax.
No most of them don't end up in deaths. But, look at the video on my previous post. Why is the police behavior so different at times? Was it necessary for them to run in guns drawn yelling obscenities acting like complete hyped up goons, when in other cases they walked in and the gamer simply showed them what had happened? Or was it just differences in departmental policy?

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Old 30th December 2017, 06:32 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Oh, absolutely. And in this day and age they should be doubly careful. I wasn't trying to absolve the police, but making a comment that the caller should be held responsible. In the case of swatting, the punishment should be exemplary and publicised.
What about, in addition to hard time, a public swatters register, in analogy to the sex offenders registry, with full name and address?
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:34 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
No most of them don't end up in deaths. But, look at the video on my previous post. Why is the police behavior so different at times? Was it necessary for them to run in guns drawn yelling obscenities acting like complete hyped up goons, when in other cases they walked in and the gamer simply showed them what had happened? Or was it just differences in departmental policy?
Well the last one was British.

ETA: and yes, I think there's way too many American police officers who think that coming in all shouting (to the point of incomprehensibility) and weapons drawn and shoot at the first "wrong" movement is an effective strategy.
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Last edited by ddt; 30th December 2017 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:37 PM   #71
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I don't think some people really get that there is a surprisingly small amount of standardization in police procedures in America and local law enforcement units are free to establish their own procedures to a large degree.

That's why I find any question framed in the 'Are police in America X?' context pretty much useless.

The NYPD fields 40,000 officers, larger than the population of the 6 smallest countries in the world. Meanwhile Gaines Township, Michigan has... one guy.

How well are they trained? Again that's not a valid question without more context. In my home state of North Carolina it takes twice as many house of training to be a certified barber than to be a police officer and they aren't the worse. While others (to be fair an almost statistically insignificant minority) require a degree.
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:39 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Is there any indication if the false address given was picked at random or if it was connected to the player in any way?

Legally there might not be any culpability but playing the "Oh yeah tough guy I'd like to see you try something come at me Bro" but while giving someone else's address is sort of a dick move.
Yes it's a dick move. But on the Internet, giving the wrong address can be hilarious. A UserFriendly classic.

For those less versed in IP technology: 127.0.0.1 is, on each computer, the IP address that points to the computer itself. It's Internet Technology 101 knowlege.
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Last edited by ddt; 30th December 2017 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:46 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
This seems to be a classic example of the attitude that the police are as dangerous as wild animals, and that they can't be expected not to kill innocents.

I see that sort of apologetic as reducing police to mere tools wielded by others. Mindless objects that can not be blamed for their own improper use.

It's ridiculous, of course.


Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Is there any indication if the false address given was picked at random or if it was connected to the player in any way?

From what I've read elsewhere, the prankster got the address from his intended victim. The intended victim intentionally gave the prankster the wrong address and allegedly taunted him.

I don't have a reputable source for that info yet.
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Old 30th December 2017, 06:52 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
From what I've read elsewhere, the prankster got the address from his intended victim. The intended victim intentionally gave the prankster the wrong address and allegedly taunted him.

I don't have a reputable source for that info yet.
No I meant why the intended victim chose that address, randomly or with some reason behind it.
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:00 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
No I meant why the intended victim chose that address, randomly or with some reason behind it.
I haven't seen any reports about anything related to that guy and what he says now. It seems likely that police would talk to him but nothing reported yet.
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:03 PM   #76
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A few years ago this same pranker was arrested and convicted for calling in a bomb threat to a TV station near LA. He was sentenced to 2 years in prison but the press doesn't know if he served any of that or what happened.
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:36 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
No I meant why the intended victim chose that address, randomly or with some reason behind it.

Ah. My bad. Yeah, I don't know...
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:50 PM   #78
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Deliberately putting someone at deadly risk and then they, oops, die, isn't that at least manslaughter or the lowest type of murder?

If you are a bank robber, and the police shoots at you, misses, and kills an innocent bystander, you are the murderer and can get charged for it in most places. For that matter if they shoot your colleague legitimately and he dies, you're stuck for murder too.
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Old 30th December 2017, 07:59 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Deliberately putting someone at deadly risk and then they, oops, die, isn't that at least manslaughter or the lowest type of murder?

If you are a bank robber, and the police shoots at you, misses, and kills an innocent bystander, you are the murderer and can get charged for it in most places. For that matter if they shoot your colleague legitimately and he dies, you're stuck for murder too.
Oh come off it. The bank robbery analogy misses on so many levels I can barely be bothered listing them. Just for starters, if the police attending a bank robbery fire a shot they need to be convinced that the robbers are a threat to others. So, yes, the robbers are responsible for the consequences of that shot. How is that even remotely comparable to this event?

Anyway, this seems to be another attempt at police apologia. Do you think the police have a case to answer?
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:07 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh come off it. The bank robbery analogy misses on so many levels I can barely be bothered listing them. Just for starters, if the police attending a bank robbery fire a shot they need to be convinced that the robbers are a threat to others. So, yes, the robbers are responsible for the consequences of that shot. How is that even remotely comparable to this event?

Anyway, this seems to be another attempt at police apologia. Do you think the police have a case to answer?
There is a legal concept known as "felony murder" in the USA (in some states incl KS). If Swatting is a felony in Kansas I can see it being applied.
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