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Old 30th December 2017, 08:23 PM   #81
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Deliberately putting someone at deadly risk and then they, oops, die, isn't that at least manslaughter or the lowest type of murder?
If calling the police on someone (perhaps especially an innocent person, who would be the least likely to pull a gun on cops) is putting them "at deadly risk" then it seems you're making the case that police officers are a deadly danger to the public.

Time to clean up the streets by getting the police off them.
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:30 PM   #82
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The false report is (highly to say the least) problematic and I believe should carry legal punishment, but it does not in anyway absolve the police of correct, or at least reasonable and understandable, threat assessment.

Listen I'll lay all my cards on the table. I'm hugely pro-police. I don't like the... gleeful air that some of the police criticism has is very distasteful to me. Even correct and valid criticism can come from a bad place.

But this "I can react to any threat with any level of force I want AND I get to define what is and isn't a threat" mentality needs to be severely reeled in.

A person is dead via the people who are supposed to protect us because two other dipsticks got into a dick waving contest over a bet over a video game. That's not acceptable.
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:30 PM   #83
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He did serve some time in prison for the bomb threat and was released earlier this year. He essentially repeated the same crime. He's now been charged in California and might also be charged in Kansas. An attorney says he might be charged with negligent homicide in KS.

http://abc7.com/suspect-in-kansas-sw...n-2015/2841685
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:37 PM   #84
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SWAuTistic? The dude's online name was SWAuTistic?

I... I... *wanders off, muttering to himself.*
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:46 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Listen I'll lay all my cards on the table. I'm hugely pro-police.
See, I don't even know what this means. I'm absolutely pro-police in the sense that I want them to be out there doing their jobs. However, I see no need to temper my stated distaste for police murders by talking about how those are exceptions and most police are decent people, etc.

Any police officer who takes exception to one of their brethren being called a cowardly murderer when they shoot an unarmed person can go **** themselves. Any police officer who defends these criminals should not only go **** themselves, but should do so after turning in their badge.

The system is broken, and not just because things like this happen. It's because in addition to things like this happening, people defend the murderers (including the officers around them), the murderers rarely see the inside of a jail cell, and far too often the murderers get to continue their careers until they retire with a nice public pension.

There are mistakes and then there are mistakes. Plenty of people go to jail for their mistakes, and plenty more probably should.
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Old 30th December 2017, 08:51 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
See, I don't even know what this means. I'm absolutely pro-police in the sense that I want them to be out there doing their jobs. However, I see no need to temper my stated distaste for police murders by talking about how those are exceptions and most police are decent people, etc.

Any police officer who takes exception to one of their brethren being called a cowardly murderer when they shoot an unarmed person can go **** themselves. Any police officer who defends these criminals should not only go **** themselves, but should do so after turning in their badge.

The system is broken, and not just because things like this happen. It's because in addition to things like this happening, people defend the murderers (including the officers around them), the murderers rarely see the inside of a jail cell, and far too often the murderers get to continue their careers until they retire with a nice public pension.

There are mistakes and then there are mistakes. Plenty of people go to jail for their mistakes, and plenty more probably should.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I'm not the enemy here.

I have a base respect for people who take on certain roles. This does not prevent me from calling them out on their behavior when necessary.

Perhaps it is simply a difference in how we chose to conceptualize and word our anger at this incident. If that makes any sense.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:17 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I'm not the enemy here.
I didn't think you were. I guess my point was that saying you're "hugely" pro-police gives me the impression that you'd be willing to side with a police officer on some wrongs, even if this wrong isn't one of them.

If ever an organization needed a zero-tolerance policy, it's a police department. Beat up a suspect? You're fired. Search someone without probable cause? You're fired. Drink and drive? You're fired. Punch somebody on your weekend off because they called you a stupid pig? You're fired. And, of course, some of these firings would be concomitant with criminal charges.

It would probably make for a tough several years for police departments as their worst officers drop like flies, but at the end of the process we might have more law enforcement officers who follow the law.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:21 PM   #88
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All of those cops at the scene had every reason to believe that the guy coming out the door is the murderer who just shot his father and is holding his own family hostage in a house that is doused with gasoline. He's a really bad guy and he might do anything right now. So he puts his hands up as if to surrender and then twice drops them to his beltline. No, that's not gonna work.

Every person reading this thread already saw the title saying "innocent" before opening it. But the cops didn't see this thread before arriving at a murder scene with an armed gunman. That's what they were told.

It's a horrible thing that happened. Terrible circumstances not the least of which is Finch reaching for where people put guns... in the waistline of the pants... twice.

It could have been different. Finch's mother could have come to the door and yelled, "why are you all here?" That would have ended the prank encounter right there. But that didn't happen and instead was a bad chain of events.

This cop will need psychiatric counseling, not criminal charges.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:31 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I didn't think you were. I guess my point was that saying you're "hugely" pro-police gives me the impression that you'd be willing to side with a police officer on some wrongs, even if this wrong isn't one of them.
I don't really think we're disagreeing in anything but... tone I guess you'd call it.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
All of those cops at the scene had every reason to believe that the guy coming out the door is the murderer who just shot his father and is holding his own family hostage in a house that is doused with gasoline. He's a really bad guy and he might do anything right now. So he puts his hands up as if to surrender and then twice drops them to his beltline. No, that's not gonna work.

Every person reading this thread already saw the title saying "innocent" before opening it. But the cops didn't see this thread before arriving at a murder scene with an armed gunman. That's what they were told.

It's a horrible thing that happened. Terrible circumstances not the least of which is Finch reaching for where people put guns... in the waistline of the pants... twice.

It could have been different. Finch's mother could have come to the door and yelled, "why are you all here?" That would have ended the prank encounter right there. But that didn't happen and instead was a bad chain of events.

This cop will need psychiatric counseling, not criminal charges.
I'm sorry but that's not reasonable.

The problem is there's no clear standard as what constitutes "a threat" so basically police can just call anything a threat and that's that. He reached for his waistband, he had a bag, he moved too fast, he moved too slow...

And I'm sorry blaming the victim for it because he reached for his waistband... no.

The problem with the "If he had done X he would still be alive" argument is that police can put practically anything in X.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
If calling the police on someone (perhaps especially an innocent person, who would be the least likely to pull a gun on cops) ...
But the tip they got did not suggest an innocent, unarmed person ... quite the opposite.

Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
...is putting them "at deadly risk" then it seems you're making the case that police officers are a deadly danger to the public.
I hope police are learning something ... how to move in tactically with minimal risk to officers, how to de-escalate a situation, etc. My Trump-loving nephew is deciding he wants to be a cop and it scares me because I think he might like the idea of mixing it up with "bad hombres." I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:37 PM   #91
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Seriously you can't just counter every unwarranted death with "Well the police didn't know they weren't a threat."

Expecting police to have basic levels of situations awareness and understanding of escalation of force is not unreasonable.

This is why I hate it when people describe over-reactive police as "playing soldier." I did 20 years including two boots on ground tours and I'd have killed (no pun) for that loose of ROE. I did a year in Kandahar and wouldn't have gotten away with being that loose triggered with an open and admitted enemy combatant we were in open combat with. Even the ROE in actual war zones has standards greater than this. "Threat" is something you have to justify not just "feel."

If I got a call, again in a literal declared war zone, about a possible enemy combatant and I just shot the dude when he opened his door I'd be in Leavenworth making small rocks out of big rocks right about now. Expecting the same level from a police force interacting with the citizenry is not crazy talk.

That's why I hate it when people say over-reactive police are "playing soldier." They're playing an extra playing a soldier in a Michael Bay film.

It's not even a matter of "training" in the literal sense. I knew people in the service who were dumber than a second coat of primer and by the end of bootcamp they had the basics of force escalation and the deadly force triangle.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:38 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But the tip they got did not suggest an innocent, unarmed person ... quite the opposite.
If a phoned tip is all it takes for a death warrant, we should probably just send an armed drone. It would certainly make things much safer for the poor beleaguered police officers.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:44 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
If a phoned tip is all it takes for a death warrant, we should probably just send an armed drone. It would certainly make things much safer for the poor beleaguered police officers.
Yes, and while swatting may be new in terms of the online gaming component, it's not like hoax calls haven't existed since shortly after the telephone was invented. Police should respond to calls with an open mind until they can determine the actual situation.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:44 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
If a phoned tip is all it takes for a death warrant, we should probably just send an armed drone. It would certainly make things much safer for the poor beleaguered police officers.
There wasn't a death warrant.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:46 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There wasn't a death warrant.
There wasn't? Then surely the police officer who shot the unarmed innocent citizen is being charged with murder.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:49 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yes, and while swatting may be new in terms of the online gaming component, it's not like hoax calls haven't existed since shortly after the telephone was invented. Police should respond to calls with an open mind until they can determine the actual situation.
An "open mind" is ideal, sure. But if you just a get a call to get on your SWAT gear because there is a report of a man who just killed another man, is holding hostages and has soaked his house in gasoline, clear thinking can very easily get clouded. Obviously this could have been handled better, but I am fairly certain this officer didnt show up to work wanting to shoot an innocent person. Don't know anything about him, but I would bet he has never shot another person in his career and won't shoot another person at any point going forward if he is somehow able to remain on the job.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:53 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Don't know anything about him, but I would bet he has never shot another person in his career and won't shoot another person at any point going forward if he is somehow able to remain on the job.
Well I guess everyone gets one free then.

Maybe I'm crazy but "Oh come what are the odds he's gonna shot another person"... isn't really swaying me here.
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Old 30th December 2017, 09:57 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Well I guess everyone gets one free then.

Maybe I'm crazy but "Oh come it's what are the odds he's gonna shot another person"... isn't really swaying me here.
The point is that these are one-off events amongst individual officers/people, not patternable behaviors of criminals, at least in most instances.

And, there is a difference between a murder and a mistake.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:02 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The point is that these are one-off events amongst individual officers/people, not patternable behaviors of criminals, at least in most instances.

And, there is a difference between a murder and a mistake.

I have no idea in this case, but the officer in the AZ hotel shooting had some use of force complaints already.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:02 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Obviously this could have been handled better, but I am fairly certain this officer didnt show up to work wanting to shoot an innocent person.
And I'm fairly certain that if there was a hell, the road to it would be paved with similar sentiments.

I don't care how good a person he is (was), and I don't care if he was previously considered the best cop in the history of his department. He shot and killed an unarmed person who wasn't threatening anybody.

Again, there are mistakes for which you shouldn't just get to say "I'm sorry" and then move on with your life. Prison is where he belongs. 20 to life? Maybe not. But there's got to be some prison time for incidents like this.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:03 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I have no idea in this case, but the officer in the AZ hotel shooting had some use of force complaints already.
Yeah, I dont have anything to say about that guy. That was bad.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:05 PM   #102
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I should say again that I am not anti-police. I worked for Victoria Police at a senior level (unsworn) for seven years and count police I worked with then as friends. My son-in-law is a cop, currently drug squad.

What I am anti is poorly trained police and the cheer squad which supports every police action, however egregious.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:10 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
All of those cops at the scene had every reason to believe that the guy coming out the door is the murderer who just shot his father and is holding his own family hostage in a house that is doused with gasoline.

He's not exactly a threat to the family if he's walking out of the front door, is he? So who did this cop think they were protecting?

Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
The problem is there's no clear standard as what constitutes "a threat" so basically police can just call anything a threat and that's that.

And they can do it post hoc with incredible ease. Body cameras would theoretically make this less successful, but only if those reviewing the footage are objective observers. As I understand it, those doing the review have "good" reasons to be sympathetic to their "brother".

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Old 30th December 2017, 10:13 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And I'm fairly certain that if there was a hell, the road to it would be paved with similar sentiments.

I don't care how good a person he is (was), and I don't care if he was previously considered the best cop in the history of his department. He shot and killed an unarmed person who wasn't threatening anybody.

Again, there are mistakes for which you shouldn't just get to say "I'm sorry" and then move on with your life. Prison is where he belongs. 20 to life? Maybe not. But there's got to be some prison time for incidents like this.
Right. So you've made it abundantly clear that you dont take into consideration whether a person is acting in good faith, in an official capacity, with a history of solid performance who, in a split second made a wrong choice with after being given some very disturbing false information... his judgement potentially hindered by involuntary physiological stress responses, adrenaline, etc. "Prison is where he belongs"

Thankfully, most people are more reasonable than that.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:23 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
All of those cops at the scene had every reason to believe that the guy coming out the door is the murderer who just shot his father and is holding his own family hostage in a house that is doused with gasoline. He's a really bad guy and he might do anything right now. So he puts his hands up as if to surrender and then twice drops them to his beltline. No, that's not gonna work.

Every person reading this thread already saw the title saying "innocent" before opening it. But the cops didn't see this thread before arriving at a murder scene with an armed gunman. That's what they were told.
....
Let's interrupt there. All the cops knew is that a dispatcher had received a phone call from someone who claimed to live at that address and who claimed that he had killed people and was prepared to kill others. That's all. No cop knew anything more. They didn't consider the possibility that the call could be a hoax, or a mistake, or that the caller could have given a mistaken address, or even that they might have rolled up to the wrong address, which apparently is not uncommon in cities with grid layouts or similar street names. The cops could have taken multiple steps to confirm the initial report, which might have included, at a minimum, dialing the real phone number listed for that address and asking "Hey, are you the guy who killed your parents? Ya wanna talk about it?" They might have called the neighbors and asked "Did you hear shots? Who lives next door?" And I repeat, if the cops had taken cover, it wouldn't have mattered if the guy pulled a gun because he couldn't have shot anybody, especially with searchlights in his face. It would at least have given them time to actually see what he might have in his hand: A gun? A wallet? A cell phone? There can be no excuse or justification for any cop killing anybody "by mistake." It could literally happen to any of us.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:26 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Right. So you've made it abundantly clear that you dont take into consideration whether a person is acting in good faith, in an official capacity, with a history of solid performance who, in a split second made a wrong choice with after being given some very disturbing false information... his judgement potentially hindered by involuntary physiological stress responses, adrenaline, etc. "Prison is where he belongs"

Thankfully, most people are more reasonable than that.
Police are responsible for their own professional behaviour. "Involuntary physiological stress responses"? Give me a break. Cops are supposed to be highly trained professionals. Sadly this is not always the case in the USA, with a multitude of small, poorly resourced forces.

I'm not saying that prison is where he belongs. But a court is.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:29 PM   #107
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"Police? Help! I need help! I've been shot! A man with orange hair shot me! He's still in the house! He's talking crazy! He wants to burn everything down! Help me! Hurry! Yes, I live at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. My name is Melania! Send SWAT right away!"

You think it might work?
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:30 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Right. So you've made it abundantly clear that you dont take into consideration whether a person is acting in good faith, in an official capacity, with a history of solid performance who, in a split second made a wrong choice with after being given some very disturbing false information... his judgement potentially hindered by involuntary physiological stress responses, adrenaline, etc. "Prison is where he belongs"

Thankfully, most people are more reasonable than that.
Under identical circumstances, how would a civilian who "mistakenly" killed a cop be treated?
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:33 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Police are responsible for their own professional behaviour. "Involuntary physiological stress responses"? Give me a break. Cops are supposed to be highly trained professionals. Sadly this is not always the case in the USA, with a multitude of small, poorly resourced forces.

I'm not saying that prison is where he belongs. But a court is.
Amazing.
Here I am on a skeptics website, and there is a guy claiming police should not be influenced by stress.
FYI, Robocop is just a movie and cops are just people doing their jobs. Everyone pisses their pants when the shooting starts.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:37 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Under identical circumstances, how would a civilian who "mistakenly" killed a cop be treated?
Would depend on the circumstances, and that's the point of bringing up "acting in an official capacity". A cop is expected to be ready to fire at a murder suspect/hostage taker as a function of his job.

When is a civilian reasonably expected to fire at a police officer?
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:37 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Under identical circumstances, how would a civilian who "mistakenly" killed a cop be treated?
Only time Ive heard of it happening:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ant-drugs.html
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:39 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Amazing.
Here I am on a skeptics website, and there is a guy claiming police should not be influenced by stress.
FYI, Robocop is just a movie and cops are just people doing their jobs. Everyone pisses their pants when the shooting starts.
Yes, and your training gets you through it. Did you see the operating procedures our police operates by? Here it is again:



"To achieve this Victoria Police has adopted ten Operational Safety Principles. They are as follows:
1. Safety first – the safety of police, the public and offenders or suspects is paramount.
2. Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations.
3. Take charge – exercise effective command and control.
4. Planned response – take every opportunity to convert an unplanned response into a planned operation.
5. Cordon and containment – unless impractical, adopt a ‘cordon and containment’ approach.
6. Avoid confrontation – a violent confrontation is to be avoided.
7. Avoid force – the use of force is to be avoided
8. Minimum force – where use of force cannot be avoided, only use the minimum amount reasonably necessary.
9. Forced entry searches – are to be used only as a last resort.
10. Resources – it is accepted that the ‘safety first’ principle may require the deployment of more resources, more complex planning and more time to complete."

How many of these procedures did this incompetent cop follow?
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:40 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Would depend on the circumstances, and that's the point of bringing up "acting in an official capacity". A cop is expected to be ready to fire at a murder suspect/hostage taker as a function of his job.

When is a civilian reasonably expected to fire at a police officer?
A hostage situation yes, but an unarmed murder suspect? I disagree.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:43 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yes, and your training gets you through it. Did you see the operating procedures our police operates by? Here it is again:



"To achieve this Victoria Police has adopted ten Operational Safety Principles. They are as follows:
1. Safety first – the safety of police, the public and offenders or suspects is paramount.
2. Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations.
3. Take charge – exercise effective command and control.
4. Planned response – take every opportunity to convert an unplanned response into a planned operation.
5. Cordon and containment – unless impractical, adopt a ‘cordon and containment’ approach.
6. Avoid confrontation – a violent confrontation is to be avoided.
7. Avoid force – the use of force is to be avoided
8. Minimum force – where use of force cannot be avoided, only use the minimum amount reasonably necessary.
9. Forced entry searches – are to be used only as a last resort.
10. Resources – it is accepted that the ‘safety first’ principle may require the deployment of more resources, more complex planning and more time to complete."

How many of these procedures did this incompetent cop follow?
Dodge noted.
Anyway I find it interesting that the first thing on your list is officer safety before the public. Australia sounds like a messed up place.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:46 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Would depend on the circumstances, and that's the point of bringing up "acting in an official capacity". A cop is expected to be ready to fire at a murder suspect/hostage taker as a function of his job.

When is a civilian reasonably expected to fire at a police officer?
Any killing by mistake. Self-defense shooting at a person in plain clothes who points a gun at him (and who turns out to be a cop), for one example.

And I repeat, the victim was not a "murder suspect/hostage taker." No crime had occurred. The cops did not perform reasonable diligence.
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Old 30th December 2017, 10:48 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Dodge noted.
Anyway I find it interesting that the first thing on your list is officer safety before the public. Australia sounds like a messed up place.
Dodge? Very funny.

Australia is a place with very few citizens killed by police and a homicide rate a fraction of the US. Messed up indeed.
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:00 PM   #117
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I wonder if this is the result of paying police officers less wages, therefore attracting less stable police officers.
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:04 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I wonder if this is the result of paying police officers less wages, therefore attracting less stable police officers.
US officers are for the most part, better paid than in other countries.


https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/657843
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:07 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I wonder if this is the result of paying police officers less wages, therefore attracting less stable police officers.
Possibly.

Our police constables after a few years in the job earn over $A100k with shift and other allowances. When superannuation and leave entitlements are built in, our cops are well paid indeed.

As a consequence recruits are generally high calibre. Police forces that pay peanuts get the cops they deserve.
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:11 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Possibly.

Our police constables after a few years in the job earn over $A100k with shift and other allowances. When superannuation and leave entitlements are built in, our cops are well paid indeed.

As a consequence recruits are generally high calibre. Police forces that pay peanuts get the cops they deserve.
Mean officer pay in the us is $62k. Higher for state police. Also they get great pensions, and healthcare for life. Something very few other Americans get.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm#

It's a meme that they aren't well compensated.
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