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Old 30th December 2017, 11:23 PM   #121
Babbylonian
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Amazing.
Here I am on a skeptics website, and there is a guy claiming police should not be influenced by stress.
FYI, Robocop is just a movie and cops are just people doing their jobs. Everyone pisses their pants when the shooting starts.
There was a lot of shooting going on, huh? Your attempts to justify this piece of **** are reaching the LOL stage.
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:24 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Mean officer pay in the us is $62k. Higher for state police. Also they get great pensions, and healthcare for life. Something very few other Americans get.

https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes333051.htm#

It's a meme that they aren't well compensated.
Thanks. That's what I would have expected.

In Australia teachers and cops are paid similarly, which I think is about right.
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:32 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
All of those cops at the scene had every reason to believe that the guy coming out the door is the murderer who just shot his father and is holding his own family hostage in a house that is doused with gasoline. He's a really bad guy and he might do anything right now. So he puts his hands up as if to surrender and then twice drops them to his beltline. No, that's not gonna work.

Every person reading this thread already saw the title saying "innocent" before opening it. But the cops didn't see this thread before arriving at a murder scene with an armed gunman. That's what they were told.

It's a horrible thing that happened. Terrible circumstances not the least of which is Finch reaching for where people put guns... in the waistline of the pants... twice.

It could have been different. Finch's mother could have come to the door and yelled, "why are you all here?" That would have ended the prank encounter right there. But that didn't happen and instead was a bad chain of events.

This cop will need psychiatric counseling, not criminal charges.
You do, I hope, realize that most non-criminals are - especially if they do not have/carry/use handguns - not functionally aware of the gun in pants thing and, unless clearly told calmly and quietly to keep their hands in the air/behind their head should be safe from being murdered by police. And, yes, if the person is not clearly a criminal and no record of such conduct has ever been filed/recorded than he/she should not be shot/murdered for not moving the way only criminals should already know and be very familiar with.
I have no sympathy for his murderer or the slime that set the thing up!!!
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:36 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The point is that these are one-off events amongst individual officers/people, not patternable behaviors of criminals, at least in most instances.

And, there is a difference between a murder and a mistake.
Not if stupidity in action is involved.
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:39 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
He's not exactly a threat to the family if he's walking out of the front door, is he? So who did this cop think they were protecting?




And they can do it post hoc with incredible ease. Body cameras would theoretically make this less successful, but only if those reviewing the footage are objective observers. As I understand it, those doing the review have "good" reasons to be sympathetic to their "brother".
And, if anything happens to the video prior to court the cop should be dismissed at a minimum and if no chain of custody on the video then everybody supposed to be in the chain should be fired!!!
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Old 30th December 2017, 11:40 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Police? Help! I need help! I've been shot! A man with orange hair shot me! He's still in the house! He's talking crazy! He wants to burn everything down! Help me! Hurry! Yes, I live at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. My name is Melania! Send SWAT right away!"

You think it might work?
The only version I have no problem at all with!!!
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Old 31st December 2017, 12:41 AM   #127
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One possible solution would be a massive campaign of swatting against police officers, their relatives, and assorted politicians enabling the current policies.

With luck enough deaths among their own will lead to a rethinking akind to lionkings example above.

I suspect that a large part of the US police is irredeemably damaged by "urban warrior" training/mentality and the lack of consequences for assorted brutality.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:27 AM   #128
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Lots of talk about stress and fear for the cops, but in the video it looks like they were a hell of a long way from the house, and in no immediate danger, even if he had a gun.

I'm sure some gun expert will tell me otherwise.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:46 AM   #129
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At the very end it always comes back to the same question, i.e. why do the cops kill much more people in the USA than the cops kill people in civilized countries, like the Member States of the European Union, Canada, Australia or Japan?
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:52 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Lots of talk about stress and fear for the cops, but in the video it looks like they were a hell of a long way from the house, and in no immediate danger, even if he had a gun.

I'm sure some gun expert will tell me otherwise.
Yes, a hell of a long way from the house. How they can even see what exactly the victim was doing is a mystery.

Murder.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:53 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
One possible solution would be a massive campaign of swatting against police officers, their relatives, and assorted politicians enabling the current policies.

With luck enough deaths among their own will lead to a rethinking akind to lionkings example above.

I suspect that a large part of the US police is irredeemably damaged by "urban warrior" training/mentality and the lack of consequences for assorted brutality.
Gun control is such a failure in the USA, that I doubt even that would change anything. Mass shooting of children changes nothing. Mass shooting of children by other children chamges nothing. When even that chamges nothing, there is no hope.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:35 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I would suggest that there is also a third incident. The would-be victim gave an address that wasn't his own to a person who was threatening to "SWAT". The pranker did exactly what he said he would do and the police went to the address given in the online gamer chat. That would-be victim could have refused to give out any address at all. But instead he gives the address of an innocent party who has nothing to do with anything.

He's probably not going to be charged for that but he might get sued.
Yeah, he'll probably get nailed for "bad sportsmanship".
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:39 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Gun control is such a failure in the USA, that I doubt even that would change anything. Mass shooting of children changes nothing. Mass shooting of children by other children chamges nothing. When even that chamges nothing, there is no hope.
You don' t think self inflicted causalities would make police departments rethink their swat approach?
It is not, after all about gun control.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:49 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Would depend on the circumstances, and that's the point of bringing up "acting in an official capacity". A cop is expected to be ready to fire at a murder suspect/hostage taker as a function of his job.

There's part of the problem, right there.

Firing their weapon shouldn't be the thing they are primed and ready to do.

Evaluating the scene should be. Assessing the conditions and looking for the least dangerous solution should be.

It's the 'come in ready to shoot' that is the root of these screw-ups.

Quote:

When is a civilian reasonably expected to fire at a police officer?

When they don't know it's a cop and they 'feel threatened'. Why should that be a defense for cops and not for 'civilians'.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:56 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Oh, right. I think my brain managed to overlook the "dead man"/"man dead" bit, as I was assuming there was a quibble over the use of "alleged" in the headline.
Likewise, only I assumed it was the CoD reference.
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Old 31st December 2017, 05:03 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Yes. You are.
Yes, I really was!
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Old 31st December 2017, 05:28 AM   #137
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If only the guy had been armed, he could've protected himself.....[/nra]
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:02 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
You don' t think self inflicted causalities would make police departments rethink their swat approach?
It is not, after all about gun control.
I think a campaign to increase the shooting of police officers and their families is not going to make police officers more peaceful and less prone to shooting at the slightest sign of risk.

Since children mass shooting and being mass shot has not even tipped the USA into taking positive action to reduce gun deaths, nothing will.
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:08 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
There's part of the problem, right there.

Firing their weapon shouldn't be the thing they are primed and ready to do.

Evaluating the scene should be. Assessing the conditions and looking for the least dangerous solution should be.

It's the 'come in ready to shoot' that is the root of these screw-ups.




When they don't know it's a cop and they 'feel threatened'. Why should that be a defense for cops and not for 'civilians'.
Contain and negotiate should be the initial tactic. Inform the house it is surrounded and every one has to stay inside. Ask if anyone phoned the police, if there is a hostage situation and if anyone has a gun. The answers in the case would be three nos.

The police tactics should then be either get the people to come put hands up and lie down or ask the people to stay inside and lie down as the police enter.

Unless a gun is seen, the police should not shoot. A hand out of view is not a sufficient threat.
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:26 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Police are responsible for their own professional behaviour. "Involuntary physiological stress responses"? Give me a break.

It's also *********** idiotic as an excuse when the civilian in a surprise interaction with police is expected to not give in to "involuntary physiological stress responses", lest they be shot for being a threat. And when they are, it gets dismissed with, "Well, they should have done what they were told."

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Old 31st December 2017, 06:26 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think a campaign to increase the shooting of police officers and their families is not going to make police officers more peaceful and less prone to shooting at the slightest sign of risk.

Since children mass shooting and being mass shot has not even tipped the USA into taking positive action to reduce gun deaths, nothing will.
(My hilite)
You look at it wrong.
Think of it as a training opportunity, no harm would be done. Unless of course even police officers don't know the correct response to a swat team.

Anyway, why would police get even more paranoid around fellow citizens if it is fellow officers that guns them and their families down?

It would be an attempt to influence the police, not all of USA, and I suspect risk to their own hide would get through a lot better than somebody else’s kids.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:14 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
(My hilite)
You look at it wrong.
Think of it as a training opportunity, no harm would be done. Unless of course even police officers don't know the correct response to a swat team.

Anyway, why would police get even more paranoid around fellow citizens if it is fellow officers that guns them and their families down?

It would be an attempt to influence the police, not all of USA, and I suspect risk to their own hide would get through a lot better than somebody else’s kids.
Trying to get the police to shoot each other and their families in a series of hoax calls is not a "training opportunity".
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:16 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You do, I hope, realize that most non-criminals are - especially if they do not have/carry/use handguns - not functionally aware of the gun in pants thing and, unless clearly told calmly and quietly to keep their hands in the air/behind their head should be safe from being murdered by police. And, yes, if the person is not clearly a criminal and no record of such conduct has ever been filed/recorded than he/she should not be shot/murdered for not moving the way only criminals should already know and be very familiar with.
I have no sympathy for his murderer or the slime that set the thing up!!!
Andy Finch (the innocent victim) would have known about guns and cops and criminal things. He was an ex-convict who had served time in prison for unlawful discharge of a firearm. Prior to that he served in juvenile detention. That is according to his brother Jerome who spoke to the Wichita Eagle News.

It may sound callous but Finch got himself a Darwin Award because he wouldn't cooperate with police who were pointing guns at him. They had every reason to believe that he was an armed and dangerous murderer holding his family hostage inside that house - that is if he hadn't already shot them all.

All Finch had to do is keep his hands up as he had been told. A conversation with the police could have started and probably ended the tense situation. The cops would have wanted to go inside the house to establish the facts of the situation regardless of what Finch might say, but he would still be alive. Instead he goes and drops his hands to his beltline twice.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:16 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
When is a civilian reasonably expected to fire at a police officer?
We're not... Even if they were to burst into my house at 3am, screaming & pointing guns at me & my family, it is expected that I remain calm & rational, & listen to their instructions & follow them exactly.

Neither myself, nor my wife, nor my 5yo son are allowed to panic. Because if one of us does, the cops are expected to shoot to kill.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:20 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Andy Finch (the innocent victim) would have known about guns and cops and criminal things. He was an ex-convict who had served time in prison for unlawful discharge of a firearm. Prior to that he served in juvenile detention. That is according to his brother Jerome who spoke to the Wichita Eagle News.
Oh well that makes it okay then.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:22 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Andy Finch (the innocent victim) would have known about guns and cops and criminal things. He was an ex-convict who had served time in prison for unlawful discharge of a firearm. Prior to that he served in juvenile detention. That is according to his brother Jerome who spoke to the Wichita Eagle News.

It may sound callous but Finch got himself a Darwin Award because he wouldn't cooperate with police who were pointing guns at him. They had every reason to believe that he was an armed and dangerous murderer holding his family hostage inside that house - that is if he hadn't already shot them all.

All Finch had to do is keep his hands up as he had been told. A conversation with the police could have started and probably ended the tense situation. The cops would have wanted to go inside the house to establish the facts of the situation regardless of what Finch might say, but he would still be alive. Instead he goes and drops his hands to his beltline twice.
Is it illegal to drop your hands to your belt line?
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:24 AM   #147
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"Just do whatever I say and I won't hurt you" is what people tell their hostages. It is not a mentally we should see coming from the police.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:29 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
All of those cops at the scene had every reason to believe that the guy coming out the door is the murderer who just shot his father and is holding his own family hostage in a house that is doused with gasoline. He's a really bad guy and he might do anything right now. So he puts his hands up as if to surrender and then twice drops them to his beltline. No, that's not gonna work.

Every person reading this thread already saw the title saying "innocent" before opening it. But the cops didn't see this thread before arriving at a murder scene with an armed gunman. That's what they were told.

It's a horrible thing that happened. Terrible circumstances not the least of which is Finch reaching for where people put guns... in the waistline of the pants... twice.

It could have been different. Finch's mother could have come to the door and yelled, "why are you all here?" That would have ended the prank encounter right there. But that didn't happen and instead was a bad chain of events.

This cop will need psychiatric counseling, not criminal charges.

The video shows the following:

Officer yells, "Show me your hands."
The victim then raises his hands.
Officer yells, "Walk this way."
The victim lowers his hands.
BANG.


The man was not told to raise his hands and keep them up. He was not told anything other than to show them. His expectation would be that they wanted to see that they were empty and he did show them that.

When told to walk this way, he did what is natural when asked to walk down off a porch. He put his hands in a natural position for walking down steps.

Nothing he did was contradictory to the instructions he was actually given.


This was a murder committed by the police officer.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:34 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Andy Finch (the innocent victim) would have known about guns and cops and criminal things. He was an ex-convict who had served time in prison for unlawful discharge of a firearm. Prior to that he served in juvenile detention. That is according to his brother Jerome who spoke to the Wichita Eagle News.

It may sound callous but Finch got himself a Darwin Award because he wouldn't cooperate with police who were pointing guns at him. They had every reason to believe that he was an armed and dangerous murderer holding his family hostage inside that house - that is if he hadn't already shot them all.

All Finch had to do is keep his hands up as he had been told. A conversation with the police could have started and probably ended the tense situation. The cops would have wanted to go inside the house to establish the facts of the situation regardless of what Finch might say, but he would still be alive. Instead he goes and drops his hands to his beltline twice.
There we have it. Failing to comply with police instructions is accepted as an offence punishable by summary execution.

That anyone thinks the USA can solve its gun control and deaths problem is totally deluded.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:45 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
There wasn't? Then surely the police officer who shot the unarmed innocent citizen is being charged with murder.
It is a self defense claim.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:52 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Andy Finch (the innocent victim) would have known about guns and cops and criminal things. He was an ex-convict who had served time in prison for unlawful discharge of a firearm. Prior to that he served in juvenile detention. That is according to his brother Jerome who spoke to the Wichita Eagle News.

It may sound callous but Finch got himself a Darwin Award because he wouldn't cooperate with police who were pointing guns at him. They had every reason to believe that he was an armed and dangerous murderer holding his family hostage inside that house - that is if he hadn't already shot them all.

All Finch had to do is keep his hands up as he had been told. A conversation with the police could have started and probably ended the tense situation. The cops would have wanted to go inside the house to establish the facts of the situation regardless of what Finch might say, but he would still be alive. Instead he goes and drops his hands to his beltline twice.
The false positive problem to their strategy is a problem for the cops.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:53 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Andy Finch (the innocent victim) would have known about guns and cops and criminal things. He was an ex-convict who had served time in prison for unlawful discharge of a firearm. Prior to that he served in juvenile detention. That is according to his brother Jerome who spoke to the Wichita Eagle News.

It may sound callous but Finch got himself a Darwin Award because he wouldn't cooperate with police who were pointing guns at him. They had every reason to believe that he was an armed and dangerous murderer holding his family hostage inside that house - that is if he hadn't already shot them all.

All Finch had to do is keep his hands up as he had been told. A conversation with the police could have started and probably ended the tense situation. The cops would have wanted to go inside the house to establish the facts of the situation regardless of what Finch might say, but he would still be alive. Instead he goes and drops his hands to his beltline twice.
I agree with the highlighted but don't see why you believe that instigating the conversation the responsibility of the person who was minding his own business and suddenly found himself surrounded by armed police with a spotlight in his face (and who it can be reasonably assumed was surprised and disoriented) rather than the professionals who had been sent to control the situation?
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:54 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
If calling the police on someone (perhaps especially an innocent person, who would be the least likely to pull a gun on cops) is putting them "at deadly risk" then it seems you're making the case that police officers are a deadly danger to the public.

Time to clean up the streets by getting the police off them.

Nope. It's known there is a risk with the swatting. Ergo, he's putting them at risk. This is the case even with perfect police behavior.

Some of you are completely confused on the subject. It doesn't have to be a particularly high risk, and the police could be out of order in the reaction, but even if so, the death could be lain on the caller anyway because they initiated the situation (in addition to the police getting in trouble.)



Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh come off it. The bank robbery analogy misses on so many levels I can barely be bothered listing them. Just for starters, if the police attending a bank robbery fire a shot they need to be convinced that the robbers are a threat to others. So, yes, the robbers are responsible for the consequences of that shot. How is that even remotely comparable to this event?

Anyway, this seems to be another attempt at police apologia. Do you think the police have a case to answer?

Not sure what planet this response is from. The police could be at fault here, but that has nothing to do with whether the caller started a felony that ended in the death of someone, regardless of proximal cause, and that there was a non-trivial chance of death from that felony.
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Last edited by Beerina; 31st December 2017 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:56 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Nope. It's known there is a risk with the swatting. Ergo, he's putting them at risk.

Some of you are completely confused on the subject. It doesn't have to be a particularly high risk, and the police could be out of order in the reaction, but even if not, the death could be lain on the caller anyway because they initiated the situation.
Any risk above zero is a failure by the police.
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Old 31st December 2017, 08:06 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The pranker said that he was holding family hostage inside a closet at gunpoint and that he had spread gasoline through the house and was ready to burn it down.
It seems pretty easy to order a hit in the US. Just call the police and make them do the dirty work.
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Old 31st December 2017, 08:12 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
All of those cops at the scene had every reason to believe that the guy coming out the door is the murderer who just shot his father and is holding his own family hostage in a house that is doused with gasoline. He's a really bad guy and he might do anything right now. So he puts his hands up as if to surrender and then twice drops them to his beltline. No, that's not gonna work.

Every person reading this thread already saw the title saying "innocent" before opening it. But the cops didn't see this thread before arriving at a murder scene with an armed gunman. That's what they were told.

It's a horrible thing that happened. Terrible circumstances not the least of which is Finch reaching for where people put guns... in the waistline of the pants... twice.

It could have been different. Finch's mother could have come to the door and yelled, "why are you all here?" That would have ended the prank encounter right there. But that didn't happen and instead was a bad chain of events.

This cop will need psychiatric counseling, not criminal charges.
That is a load of apologetic ********.

What you are saying is that it's a-ok for the cops to do NO assessment of the actual threat because they were told otherwise. They are basically acting on nothing else than hearsay.

The shooting cop needs psychiatric counselling alright. I hear you can get that in prison if you act nice.
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Old 31st December 2017, 08:15 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh come off it. The bank robbery analogy misses on so many levels I can barely be bothered listing them. Just for starters, if the police attending a bank robbery fire a shot they need to be convinced that the robbers are a threat to others. So, yes, the robbers are responsible for the consequences of that shot. How is that even remotely comparable to this event?

Anyway, this seems to be another attempt at police apologia. Do you think the police have a case to answer?
How about a better one.

You go to a female friends house, a neighbor says "thank god you are here, someone just broke in and is raping her. " you hear noises inside but the door is locked.

Are you responsible if you break down the door? What if you stopped the person " raping" her and find out it was a prank?are you responsible for that?

Police go into a call base on information given. It's all they have.
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Old 31st December 2017, 08:18 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I don't really think we're disagreeing in anything but... tone I guess you'd call it.



I'm sorry but that's not reasonable.

The problem is there's no clear standard as what constitutes "a threat" so basically police can just call anything a threat and that's that. He reached for his waistband, he had a bag, he moved too fast, he moved too slow...

And I'm sorry blaming the victim for it because he reached for his waistband... no.

The problem with the "If he had done X he would still be alive" argument is that police can put practically anything in X.
You come home, someone you trust tells you someone inside is assaulting your family. Are you going to walk in calmly or are you likely to treat the treat as real and act accordingly.
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Old 31st December 2017, 08:19 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
But the tip they got did not suggest an innocent, unarmed person ... quite the opposite.
That sort of thinking places a LOT of power in the hands of SWATters.
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Old 31st December 2017, 08:21 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You do, I hope, realize that most non-criminals are - especially if they do not have/carry/use handguns - not functionally aware of the gun in pants thing and, unless clearly told calmly and quietly to keep their hands in the air/behind their head should be safe from being murdered by police. And, yes, if the person is not clearly a criminal and no record of such conduct has ever been filed/recorded than he/she should not be shot/murdered for not moving the way only criminals should already know and be very familiar with.
I have no sympathy for his murderer or the slime that set the thing up!!!
How do you make a shotgun more concealable?

If your "people don't know those things if they are good" theory holds true , you and most other posters shouldn't know this. But I'm guessing that isn't the case.
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