ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 31st December 2017, 08:23 AM   #161
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You come home, someone you trust tells you someone inside is assaulting your family. Are you going to walk in calmly or are you likely to treat the treat as real and act accordingly.
"Shooting an unarmed person" is not "acting accordingly."

"Second hand report relayed to me via a third party from an anonymous source" is not "someone I trust."

I'm a citizen, not a cop.

I could go on.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:25 AM   #162
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,050
Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Is it illegal to drop your hands to your belt line?
Just stupid. Especially for someone with experience with the cops.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:27 AM   #163
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Just stupid. Especially for someone with experience with the cops.
I love how the "He had a criminal record" is already being brought in to justify this guy's murder.

"He did time in the clank, he knows the drill."
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:28 AM   #164
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,050
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
"Shooting an unarmed person" is not "acting accordingly."

"Second hand report relayed to me via a third party from an anonymous source" is not "someone I trust."

I'm a citizen, not a cop.

I could go on.
Police have to act as if the information they recieve is accurate. It is Sop for good reason.

We are not discussing cop or civilian reactions, we are discussion how you react when your information is trusted as cops have to react as if it is.

Or tldr. Nice dodge.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:30 AM   #165
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Police have to act as if the information they recieve is accurate. It is Sop for good reason.

We are not discussing cop or civilian reactions, we are discussion how you react when your information is trusted as cops have to react as if it is.

Or tldr. Nice dodge.
Well then I guess it's okay that an innocent person is dead. Well not person, he was an ex-con so like... half person. No great loss.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:30 AM   #166
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,050
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I love how the "He had a criminal record" is already being brought in to justify this guy's murder.

"He did time in the clank, he knows the drill."
So he has been in jail but never dealt with cops? Otherwise you don't have a point.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:31 AM   #167
erlando
Graduate Poster
 
erlando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,447
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Police have to act as if the information they recieve is accurate. It is Sop for good reason.

We are not discussing cop or civilian reactions, we are discussion how you react when your information is trusted as cops have to react as if it is.

Or tldr. Nice dodge.
So US police is mindless, armed drones with no capability of assessing a situation?

Something is seriously broken in your country.
__________________
"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved?
Evolution IS a blind watchmaker
erlando is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:32 AM   #168
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,050
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Well then I guess it's okay that an innocent person is dead. Well not person, he was an ex-con so like... half person.
How does that address my point?

You just randomly said "innocent people doing is bad" good for you, but how about actually discuss the issue. Don't worry I assume you don't support random murder.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:33 AM   #169
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,596
Originally Posted by erlando View Post
What you are saying is that it's a-ok for the cops to do NO assessment of the actual threat because they were told otherwise. They are basically acting on nothing else than hearsay.
Every call to police is strictly hearsay using this guideline.

"I've just been shot and the shooter is now shooting others. I'm hearing more gunshots." That's hearsay. It's not to be considered true until cops prove it all first.

"I just fell down my stairs and broke my leg. Please send an ambulance." That's hearsay. It's not to be considered true until an X-ray is performed by a doctor.

"I just shot my father in the head and he's dead. Now I'm holding my family hostage in a closet." That's hearsay. The cops need proof by looking at the dead body and seeing the hostages.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:34 AM   #170
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by erlando View Post
So US police is mindless, armed drones with no capability of assessing a situation?
I do love how the extreme police apologetic side of this argument has to paint police as totally incapable of rational thought to make their argument work.

It's... actually really insulting to police in a weird way.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:35 AM   #171
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Don't worry I assume you don't support random murder.
Well of course not I'm not a cop. I can't gun someone down because I panic or I "feel" threatened. And I can't argue that "Listen he's dealt with people like me before, he should have known what to do."

Self defense would have to be something I justify not just claim.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:36 AM   #172
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,331
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You come home, someone you trust tells you someone inside is assaulting your family. Are you going to walk in calmly or are you likely to treat the treat as real and act accordingly.
I'm not a trained professional. The cops in this instance were not related to the supposed hositages.

I don't see why the reactions untrained individuals in a a personal situation is supposed to have a bearing on the actions of trained individuals, with support, who are specifically there as impartial enforces of the law without a personal connection to the situation.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:42 AM   #173
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
I'm amazed at how many people seem to think this person being dead was the "Good" outcome.

So someone please paint me a scenario where the police reaction is wrong.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:43 AM   #174
erlando
Graduate Poster
 
erlando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,447
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Every call to police is strictly hearsay using this guideline.

"I've just been shot and the shooter is now shooting others. I'm hearing more gunshots." That's hearsay. It's not to be considered true until cops prove it all first.
But if there's no indication of neither gunshots nor a shooter then police does what?

Quote:
"I just fell down my stairs and broke my leg. Please send an ambulance." That's hearsay. It's not to be considered true until an X-ray is performed by a doctor.
But a cast isn't put on until an X-ray has been performed.

Quote:
"I just shot my father in the head and he's dead. Now I'm holding my family hostage in a closet." That's hearsay. The cops need proof by looking at the dead body and seeing the hostages.
Maybe not shoot until at least part of that story has been confirmed?

Yes all calls for help is hearsay. Not all actions taken should be based solely on that hearsay.
__________________
"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved?
Evolution IS a blind watchmaker
erlando is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:43 AM   #175
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,596
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I love how the "He had a criminal record" is already being brought in to justify this guy's murder.

"He did time in the clank, he knows the drill."
I did not cite that to justify the shooting. Go back and look at the context related to fuelair's post. Please debate fairly, Joe.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:44 AM   #176
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,331
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Every call to police is strictly hearsay using this guideline.

"I've just been shot and the shooter is now shooting others. I'm hearing more gunshots." That's hearsay. It's not to be considered true until cops prove it all first.

"I just fell down my stairs and broke my leg. Please send an ambulance." That's hearsay. It's not to be considered true until an X-ray is performed by a doctor.

"I just shot my father in the head and he's dead. Now I'm holding my family hostage in a closet." That's hearsay. The cops need proof by looking at the dead body and seeing the hostages.
I look forward to reviewing the case of the man who was watching TV and minding his own business when EMTs broke down his door and forcibly dragged him to a hospital that encased his uninjured legs in plaster?

One might almost suspect that professionals can be capable of confirm the reported situation and adjusting their plans accordingly.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:49 AM   #177
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,596
Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Something is seriously broken in your country.
We have lots of problems not the least of which is mental illness. We just saw an example in our gamer community. Prison did not change or rehabilitate that gamer guy. That's another problem we have.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:49 AM   #178
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I did not cite that to justify the shooting. Go back and look at the context related to fuelair's post. Please debate fairly, Joe.
I'm sorry. I wasn't aware "Hey I wouldn't like to be shot in my own home, unarmed and no threat to anybody because two completely separate people were arguing about a video game" would be so radical a position to take.

I'll make sure to have milk and cookies ready at all times so when a a dispatcher send the police to 1234 Mainstreet instead of 1243 Mainstreet (trusted and Holy information that the police can never validate) and I get 47 warning shots because I'm not properly compliant with the armed men that show up to my door the police will have a nice snack.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 31st December 2017 at 08:54 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:52 AM   #179
erlando
Graduate Poster
 
erlando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,447
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We have lots of problems not the least of which is mental illness. We just saw an example in our gamer community. Prison did not change or rehabilitate that gamer guy. That's another problem we have.
But the police is doing a bang-up job at all times. Yes siree.
__________________
"If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved?
Evolution IS a blind watchmaker
erlando is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 08:58 AM   #180
332nd
Penultimate Amazing
 
332nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,241
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Just stupid. Especially for someone with experience with the cops.
Is it stupid all of the time, or just when it excuses cops over reacting?
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail
332nd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 09:00 AM   #181
shemp
a flimsy character...perfidious and despised
 
shemp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: People's Democratic Republic of Planet X
Posts: 27,948
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
"Police? Help! I need help! I've been shot! A man with orange hair shot me! He's still in the house! He's talking crazy! He wants to burn everything down! Help me! Hurry! Yes, I live at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. My name is Melania! Send SWAT right away!"

You think it might work?
"And he has access to nuclear weapons!!!"
__________________
"Shemp, you are the one fixed point in an ever-changing universe." - Beady

"I don't want to live in a world without shemp." - Quarky

"...just as a magnet attracts iron filings, Trump attracts, and is attracted to, louts." - George Will
shemp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 09:04 AM   #182
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 20,596
Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I'm amazed at how many people seem to think this person being dead was the "Good" outcome.
I haven't seen anyone say or seem to think that this shooting was a good outcome. Did you actually use the word "good"? Yes, you did. Joe, that is what's known as a strawman. Please debate fairly.
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 09:07 AM   #183
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I haven't seen anyone say or seem to think that this shooting was a good outcome. Did you actually use the word "good"? Yes, you did. Joe, that is what's known as a strawman. Please debate fairly.
Oh I'm sorry I'll try harder the next time the cops shoot an unarmed person who had nothing to do with any actual conflict because he wasn't sufficiently passive for their tastes. I probably won't have to wait long.

You can say you don't see it as a "good outcome" all you want but since you reject any way that isn't victim blaming that the situation could have worked out differently it's functionally the same.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 31st December 2017 at 09:10 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 09:12 AM   #184
Toke
Godless Socialist
 
Toke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 8,170
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Trying to get the police to shoot each other and their families in a series of hoax calls is not a "training opportunity".

Police claim that all those unfortunate deads are due to dumb civilians not reacting appropriately to swat teams, and not anything wrong with their procedure.

Let them prove it.

Ideally you could have a regulatory agency make the "prank" calls and see if police have higher survivability on the receiving end that anyone else. If so you could start "swat survival" courses for homeowners, if not maybe something is wrong with procedures.

In either case their collegas would motivate the swat teams to reduce lethality and assault on homeowners dignity.

Making it something like 10-20% of total calls sounds reasonable to me, there is a shortage of suitable targets anyway.

Won't you prefer feedback on your performance from a fellow professional rather than some possible dopehead on a suspected weed possession because that search warrant was the best swat target you could find that week.

(This idea gets better and better.)
__________________
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

Toke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 09:15 AM   #185
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,518
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
....
It may sound callous but Finch got himself a Darwin Award because he wouldn't cooperate with police who were pointing guns at him. They had every reason to believe that he was an armed and dangerous murderer holding his family hostage inside that house - that is if he hadn't already shot them all.

All Finch had to do is keep his hands up as he had been told. A conversation with the police could have started and probably ended the tense situation. The cops would have wanted to go inside the house to establish the facts of the situation regardless of what Finch might say, but he would still be alive. Instead he goes and drops his hands to his beltline twice.
This is grotesque victim-blaming. The guy was not armed. If he was trying to keep his pants from falling down, or he was reaching for his wallet, or he had an itch, that doesn't justify his killing.

And the cops had no reason to believe he was a dangerous mass murderer, based on one anonymous phone call. They had confirmed nothing.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 10:09 AM   #186
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,103
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This is grotesque victim-blaming. The guy was not armed. If he was trying to keep his pants from falling down, or he was reaching for his wallet, or he had an itch, that doesn't justify his killing.

And the cops had no reason to believe he was a dangerous mass murderer, based on one anonymous phone call. They had confirmed nothing.
Most importantly, the murder victim had no idea why the police were there.

Once again, it's clear that some here think that a phone call is enough to justify an execution.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 10:16 AM   #187
P.J. Denyer
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,331
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Most importantly, the murder victim had no idea why the police were there.

Once again, it's clear that some here think that a phone call is enough to justify an execution.
Apparently he should have got up to speed and initiated a conversation with the police officers to sort out the situation before they could shoot him...
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 10:28 AM   #188
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,698
In addition to the ever-increasing length of the "If you don't do x the cops won't shoot you" list put forward by the victim blamers is an additional, factor: the surprise, terror, and overwhelming confusion undoubtably experienced by the victims in many of these situations. The victims typically have been going about their business- sitting in their homes, talking to a friend in a hotel room, looking through toys at a store, etc. Imagine it right now- you are on your computer typing a post on ISF and there is a very loud knock at the door. You open your door and 5 strangers dressed in black body armor and bristling with automatic weapons push in and start yelling at you to put up your hands, asking you where are the explosives, where is the knife, where is your wife, do you have any guns, do this, don't do that, etc. Probably more than one cop yelling different things at you at the same time. Would any of us be able to act cool and logically under those conditions: to recognize that these are real cops and not a home invasion, remember all of rules in the victim blamers list, truly understand all the commands of the cops and obey them to the letter? All literally within seconds of your day changing from a pleasant Sunday morning to a life and death situation? And would any of us in those moments of terror and confusion actually believe that the cops would really shoot us dead if, as our hands are raised, we lower one because we are about to sneeze or our pants are falling down? These are reflexes! And we would be thinking "Come on- I'm not a terrorist or a criminal and I have no weapons- this is some mistake, they probably are already realizing that, and they aren't really going to shoot me simply if I block my sneeze!" I know I could easily see myself making a fatal error under these conditions.

The saddest part of this is that society (or at least the victim blamers) has bought into the idea that we, the civilians, as a whole must be treated by the cops as enemies- not as citizens they are hired to protect but as potential extraordinarily dangerous threats, everyone of whom must be considered to be a potential cop killer. Thus the cops enter into these situations with their own emotions at the ragged edge, assuming the citizen might be going for a gun at any moment. The result- a lot of dead people.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 10:36 AM   #189
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,176
Originally Posted by Toke View Post
You don' t think self inflicted causalities would make police departments rethink their swat approach?
It is not, after all about gun control.

They would never think that. It would always be someone else's fault.

Just like in this instance. The devil (kid in LA) made 'em do it.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 10:46 AM   #190
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,176
Originally Posted by Toke
(My hilite)
You look at it wrong.
Think of it as a training opportunity, no harm would be done. Unless of course even police officers don't know the correct response to a swat team.

Of course they don't.

That's because there is no "correct response". Even to a SWAT team. Mebbe especially to a SWAT team.

"Correct response" is a myth that cop groupies like to try to perpetuate when they are peddling their apologia for out-of-control cops.

Quote:

Anyway, why would police get even more paranoid around fellow citizens if it is fellow officers that guns them and their families down?

Because it would never be the fellow cop's fault. It would always be the fault of someone else.

Quote:

It would be an attempt to influence the police, not all of USA, and I suspect risk to their own hide would get through a lot better than somebody else’s kids.

I don't see how making them even more paranoid would "get through" to them, or how that would improve anything, since their paranoia figures largely in the problem to begin with.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 11:09 AM   #191
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,408
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
In addition to the ever-increasing length of the "If you don't do x the cops won't shoot you" list put forward by the victim blamers is an additional, factor: the surprise, terror, and overwhelming confusion undoubtably experienced by the victims in many of these situations. The victims typically have been going about their business- sitting in their homes, talking to a friend in a hotel room, looking through toys at a store, etc. Imagine it right now- you are on your computer typing a post on ISF and there is a very loud knock at the door. You open your door and 5 strangers dressed in black body armor and bristling with automatic weapons push in and start yelling at you to put up your hands, asking you where are the explosives, where is the knife, where is your wife, do you have any guns, do this, don't do that, etc. Probably more than one cop yelling different things at you at the same time. Would any of us be able to act cool and logically under those conditions: to recognize that these are real cops and not a home invasion, remember all of rules in the victim blamers list, truly understand all the commands of the cops and obey them to the letter? All literally within seconds of your day changing from a pleasant Sunday morning to a life and death situation? And would any of us in those moments of terror and confusion actually believe that the cops would really shoot us dead if, as our hands are raised, we lower one because we are about to sneeze or our pants are falling down? These are reflexes! And we would be thinking "Come on- I'm not a terrorist or a criminal and I have no weapons- this is some mistake, they probably are already realizing that, and they aren't really going to shoot me simply if I block my sneeze!"
What's even more bizarre is that, in such a scenario, we're all for some reason supposed to make allowances for how terrified the cops must be feeling.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 11:23 AM   #192
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility
Posts: 22,176
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Trying to get the police to shoot each other and their families in a series of hoax calls is not a "training opportunity".

Mebbe not. But I have to concede that it might be classified as a learning opportunity.

That would only be helpful if the cops were to learn anything from it, of course. I'm not very sanguine about the prospects for that, though.
__________________
"It never does just what I want, but only what I tell it."
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 11:39 AM   #193
332nd
Penultimate Amazing
 
332nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,241
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
In addition to the ever-increasing length of the "If you don't do x the cops won't shoot you" list put forward by the victim blamers is an additional, factor: the surprise, terror, and overwhelming confusion undoubtably experienced by the victims in many of these situations. The victims typically have been going about their business- sitting in their homes, talking to a friend in a hotel room, looking through toys at a store, etc. Imagine it right now- you are on your computer typing a post on ISF and there is a very loud knock at the door. You open your door and 5 strangers dressed in black body armor and bristling with automatic weapons push in and start yelling at you to put up your hands, asking you where are the explosives, where is the knife, where is your wife, do you have any guns, do this, don't do that, etc. Probably more than one cop yelling different things at you at the same time. Would any of us be able to act cool and logically under those conditions: to recognize that these are real cops and not a home invasion, remember all of rules in the victim blamers list, truly understand all the commands of the cops and obey them to the letter? All literally within seconds of your day changing from a pleasant Sunday morning to a life and death situation? And would any of us in those moments of terror and confusion actually believe that the cops would really shoot us dead if, as our hands are raised, we lower one because we are about to sneeze or our pants are falling down? These are reflexes! And we would be thinking "Come on- I'm not a terrorist or a criminal and I have no weapons- this is some mistake, they probably are already realizing that, and they aren't really going to shoot me simply if I block my sneeze!" I know I could easily see myself making a fatal error under these conditions.

The saddest part of this is that society (or at least the victim blamers) has bought into the idea that we, the civilians, as a whole must be treated by the cops as enemies- not as citizens they are hired to protect but as potential extraordinarily dangerous threats, everyone of whom must be considered to be a potential cop killer. Thus the cops enter into these situations with their own emotions at the ragged edge, assuming the citizen might be going for a gun at any moment. The result- a lot of dead people.
Over the past few years, a growing fear I've been developing is that the cops have to be at my house for some reason& my son (who is 5 now) might run towards me or his mother, howl in fear/frustration, or simply get out of bed to see what's going on & be killed by a cop who gets a book deal/ speaking tour out of it.
__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail
332nd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 11:40 AM   #194
Toke
Godless Socialist
 
Toke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denmark
Posts: 8,170
[quote=quadraginta;12130201..... I'm not very sanguine about the prospects for that, though.[/quote]
Kind of noticed that.
__________________
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx.

Toke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 11:40 AM   #195
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,493
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
What's even more bizarre is that, in such a scenario, we're all for some reason supposed to make allowances for how terrified the cops must be feeling.

Dave
That's the craziest part of this. The idea that if a bunch of armed men show up at your door out of the blue for no apparent reason that an average citizen has any context for them being so flustered their hands briefly drop to their waist is an act so unreasonable as to justify being shot over it while at the same time the professional, trained police officers are completely and totally unable to apply any concept of situational awareness and are perfectly justified in opening fire the second anything happens.
__________________
"Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 12:43 PM   #196
Bob001
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,518
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Mebbe not. But I have to concede that it might be classified as a learning opportunity.

That would only be helpful if the cops were to learn anything from it, of course. I'm not very sanguine about the prospects for that, though.
How 'bout a new system? When a cop kills a civilian, he is betting that the citizen is armed and poses an imminent threat. If the subject really is armed and really is a threat, the cop wins the bet; if not, which would include a citizen being lawfully armed in a non-threatening manner, the cop goes to prison. No "I was scared," no "It was stressful," no "but he moved his hands!" You place your bet, and you win or you lose.

Last edited by Bob001; 31st December 2017 at 12:45 PM.
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 12:50 PM   #197
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 42,263
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Police have to act as if the information they recieve is accurate. It is Sop for good reason.

We are not discussing cop or civilian reactions, we are discussion how you react when your information is trusted as cops have to react as if it is.

Or tldr. Nice dodge.
Utter nonsense. Show me where it is documented that police act on information given rather than assess risk and control the situation. I will post this again:


"To achieve this Victoria Police has adopted ten Operational Safety Principles. They are as follows:
1. Safety first – the safety of police, the public and offenders or suspects is paramount.
2. Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations.
3. Take charge – exercise effective command and control.
4. Planned response – take every opportunity to convert an unplanned response into a planned operation.
5. Cordon and containment – unless impractical, adopt a ‘cordon and containment’ approach.
6. Avoid confrontation – a violent confrontation is to be avoided.
7. Avoid force – the use of force is to be avoided
8. Minimum force – where use of force cannot be avoided, only use the minimum amount reasonably necessary.
9. Forced entry searches – are to be used only as a last resort.
10. Resources – it is accepted that the ‘safety first’ principle may require the deployment of more resources, more complex planning and more time to complete."

Let's see, where does it say "act only on information given"........
__________________
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 12:53 PM   #198
DragonLady
Illuminator
 
DragonLady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,846
Quote:
Over the past few years, a growing fear I've been developing is that the cops have to be at my house for some reason& my son (who is 5 now) might run towards me or his mother, howl in fear/frustration, or simply get out of bed to see what's going on & be killed by a cop who gets a book deal/ speaking tour out of it.
When my son was about five, and LEO came to the door to ask some questions. DS stood behind me, and just watched. Later, said LEO demanded of my father "why the boy stared at him like that?", and accused my son of profiling him.

My dad had no clue what to say other than something like "I don't think he ever saw a cop at the door before". But he said the whole encounter made him feel really nervous, and just a little bit scared for DS and the rest of us.

How is a small child supposed to act when a stranger in a uniform, carrying a gun and a cool radio and other unusual equipment, shows up at the door? And who is going to teach him -and at what age?
__________________
http://www.troubador.co.uk/book_info.asp?bookid=2499

“She would be half a planet away, floating in a turquoise sea, dancing by moonlight to flamenco guitar.” ~ Janet Fitch

The Gweat and Tewwible Winged One
DragonLady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 01:03 PM   #199
Checkmite
Skepticifimisticalationist
 
Checkmite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Gulf Coast
Posts: 22,211
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
How about a better one.

You go to a female friends house, a neighbor says "thank god you are here, someone just broke in and is raping her. " you hear noises inside but the door is locked.

Are you responsible if you break down the door? What if you stopped the person " raping" her and find out it was a prank?are you responsible for that?

Police go into a call base on information given. It's all they have.
For what it's worth, it might bear mention that this call wasn't received in the form of a "tip" from a neighbor or a passerby about a possible situation, or even a victim calling for "help"; the swatter portrayed himself on the phone to the police as the gunman, claimed to have killed and taken hostages and doused the house with gasoline. He also emphasized to the police that he was presently armed and would not be surrendering or putting away his weapon.
__________________
"¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD?
¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
--- Carlos S., 2002
Checkmite is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 01:05 PM   #200
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,231
Tragic intersection of two toxic cultures.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:59 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.