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Old 31st December 2017, 01:07 PM   #201
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How 'bout a new system? When a cop kills a civilian, he is betting that the citizen is armed and poses an imminent threat. If the subject really is armed and really is a threat, the cop wins the bet; if not, which would include a citizen being lawfully armed in a non-threatening manner, the cop goes to prison. No "I was scared," no "It was stressful," no "but he moved his hands!" You place your bet, and you win or you lose.
Sounds like a movie plot. We'll call it "BobCop001". The police are paid $10 million a year in salary. The sequel has the cops carrying flintlock muzzleloaders. Radical Hollywood blockbuster.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:22 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The pranker caller gave an exact address. A description of the house isn't necessary to find it. However, the caller said that he was armed and had killed his father and was holding family members hostage and wouldn't put the gun down and wanted police there right away.

I suspect that the question of how many floors was to find out if the officers would encounter multiple floors and then ask the caller which floor he is on. When it becomes known that there is only one floor then the officers do not need to be directed to a particular floor to find the gunman. The dispatcher doesn't need to say it's a single floor home because the officers are going to see that when they arrive.
Except of course they did need that information. If the cops were in possession of a few basic details about the house in question they might have been far more circumspect in their behaviour and lets not forget this was not a unique occurrence, there have been a number of these 'swatting' incidents.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:35 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Except of course they did need that information. If the cops were in possession of a few basic details about the house in question they might have been far more circumspect in their behaviour and lets not forget this was not a unique occurrence, there have been a number of these 'swatting' incidents.
What information was needed? That the murderer/hostage-taker/arsonist is on the first floor of a one-story house?
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:41 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What information was needed? That the murderer/hostage-taker/arsonist is on the first floor of a one-story house?
If it had been passed on the police might have wondered when they came to a two story one.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:44 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Utter nonsense. Show me where it is documented that police act on information given rather than assess risk and control the situation. I will post this again:


"To achieve this Victoria Police has adopted ten Operational Safety Principles. They are as follows:
1. Safety first – the safety of police, the public and offenders or suspects is paramount.
2. Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations.
3. Take charge – exercise effective command and control.
4. Planned response – take every opportunity to convert an unplanned response into a planned operation.
5. Cordon and containment – unless impractical, adopt a ‘cordon and containment’ approach.
6. Avoid confrontation – a violent confrontation is to be avoided.
7. Avoid force – the use of force is to be avoided
8. Minimum force – where use of force cannot be avoided, only use the minimum amount reasonably necessary.
9. Forced entry searches – are to be used only as a last resort.
10. Resources – it is accepted that the ‘safety first’ principle may require the deployment of more resources, more complex planning and more time to complete."

Let's see, where does it say "act only on information given"........
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:53 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
These officers used all of those.
You're joking, right?

If not, show how the cops assessed the risk and contained and controlled the situation just for starters.

These cowboys did none of these things. They charged in and murdered an innocent person.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:55 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
These officers used all of those.
Gonna need to see some proof for that. The outcome suggests that none of the listed procedures were followed. If it was attempted, the implementation was very poor.
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Old 31st December 2017, 01:57 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You're joking, right?

If not, show how the cops assessed the risk and contained and controlled the situation just for starters.

These cowboys did none of these things. They charged in and murdered an innocent person.
They assessed the call, considered what the situation was when they got there, and determined they needed to take the action they did.

They contained and controlled to the full extent possible based on the risk assessment.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:07 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They assessed the call, considered what the situation was when they got there, and determined they needed to take the action they did.

They contained and controlled to the full extent possible based on the risk assessment.
"Minimal use of force" being "shoot to kill"?
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:09 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
"Minimal use of force" being "shoot to kill"?
Yes. When he reaches for the gun, given the distance and the limit of such things as rubber bullets and tasers, it is the minimal force needed.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:12 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They assessed the call, considered what the situation was when they got there, and determined they needed to take the action they did.

They contained and controlled to the full extent possible based on the risk assessment.
You've got nothing then. As police apologistics goes, this is classic.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:13 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes. When he reaches for the gun, given the distance and the limit of such things as rubber bullets and tasers, it is the minimal force needed.
What gun?
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:14 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This cop will need psychiatric counseling, not criminal charges.
My heart *********** bleeds.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:14 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You've got nothing then. As police apologistics goes, this is classic.
What are you talking about? There isn't anything to indicate they did not use proper risk management based on the statement "Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations."

I'm not defending them.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:16 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
What gun?
Decision making is based on available evidence ex ante. Occasionally, the final event does not match the assessment in the moment.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:20 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Decision making is based on available evidence ex ante. Occasionally, the final event does not match the assessment in the moment.
Sigh. That's why professional, competent cops don't make assessment in the *********** moment
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:23 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Decision making is based on available evidence ex ante. Occasionally, the final event does not match the assessment in the moment.
Sigh. That's why professional, competent cops don't make assessment in the *********** moment
Number 4 says take every opportunity to to convert an unplanned response to a planned. The situation moved too fast for that opportunity when he reached for the gun. As the opportunity did not exist, they took every opportunity.

Last edited by Agatha; 31st December 2017 at 02:47 PM. Reason: fix quote tags
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:25 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Decision making is based on available evidence ex ante. Occasionally, the final event does not match the assessment in the moment.
So he wasn't reaching for a gun.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:27 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
So he wasn't reaching for a gun.
So? Following the ten operational safety principles doesn't preclude being wrong about that.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:27 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What are you talking about? There isn't anything to indicate they did not use proper risk management based on the statement "Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations."

I'm not defending them.
Just off the top of your head, what's the telephone number of your local Court House? Are you going to call that number or 911 when you need emergency services?
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:28 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Just off the top of your head, what's the telephone number of your local Court House? Are you going to call that number or 911 when you need emergency services?
No idea
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:28 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Originally Posted by lionking
Sigh. That's why professional, competent cops don't make assessment in the *********** moment
Number 4 says take every opportunity to to convert an unplanned response to a planned. The situation moved too fast for that opportunity when he reached for the gun. As the opportunity did not exist, they took every opportunity.
Reached for the gun?

You are now not arguing in good faith and your posts are not worth responding to.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:31 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward
Number 4 says take every opportunity to to convert an unplanned response to a planned. The situation moved too fast for that opportunity when he reached for the gun. As the opportunity did not exist, they took every opportunity.
Reached for the gun?

You are now not arguing in good faith and your posts are not worth responding to.
It is absolutely in good faith to describe the situation as it was ex ante.

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Old 31st December 2017, 02:34 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
When my son was about five, and LEO came to the door to ask some questions. DS stood behind me, and just watched. Later, said LEO demanded of my father "why the boy stared at him like that?", and accused my son of profiling him.

My dad had no clue what to say other than something like "I don't think he ever saw a cop at the door before". But he said the whole encounter made him feel really nervous, and just a little bit scared for DS and the rest of us.

How is a small child supposed to act when a stranger in a uniform, carrying a gun and a cool radio and other unusual equipment, shows up at the door? And who is going to teach him -and at what age?
Exactly. I have no idea what train him to do in a similar situation.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:37 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
So? Following the ten operational safety principles doesn't preclude being wrong about that.
So he wasn't reaching for a gun.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:38 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
So he wasn't reaching for a gun.
Which is why the 10 operational principles is a terrible case for holding them responsible (which they are).
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:42 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Which is why the 10 operational principles is a terrible case for holding them responsible (which they are).
No, they still work. The fact that he wasn't reaching for a gun damages your argument severely however.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:45 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
No, they still work. The fact that he wasn't reaching for a gun damages your argument severely however.
How so? It isn't evidence they failed to follow any of the principles.
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Old 31st December 2017, 02:51 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
Police claim that all those unfortunate deads are due to dumb civilians not reacting appropriately to swat teams, and not anything wrong with their procedure.

Let them prove it.

Ideally you could have a regulatory agency make the "prank" calls and see if police have higher survivability on the receiving end that anyone else. If so you could start "swat survival" courses for homeowners, if not maybe something is wrong with procedures.

In either case their collegas would motivate the swat teams to reduce lethality and assault on homeowners dignity.

Making it something like 10-20% of total calls sounds reasonable to me, there is a shortage of suitable targets anyway.

Won't you prefer feedback on your performance from a fellow professional rather than some possible dopehead on a suspected weed possession because that search warrant was the best swat target you could find that week.

(This idea gets better and better.)
Prank calls that can get an innocent shot is bad and not a training excercise, no matter who makes the call about who.
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:08 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Prank calls that can get an innocent shot is bad and not a training excercise, no matter who makes the call about who.
Think of the innocents saved.

When nobody else can, maybe the rest of the police department can rein in their swat team.
After the swat team have roughed up enough family members in the department, one could imagine an internal reassessment of their methods and justification for existence. (Doubt any deaths are needed)

Do you have better ideas?
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:36 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
For what it's worth, it might bear mention that this call wasn't received in the form of a "tip" from a neighbor or a passerby about a possible situation, or even a victim calling for "help"; the swatter portrayed himself on the phone to the police as the gunman, claimed to have killed and taken hostages and doused the house with gasoline. He also emphasized to the police that he was presently armed and would not be surrendering or putting away his weapon.
But none of it was true! Did the cops maybe call the listed number of the house and say "Whazzup?" Did they maybe call the neighbors and say "Anything weird happening next door?" Did they determine who lives in the house? Etc., etc. And again, if they had taken safe cover it wouldn't have mattered what the "suspect" was doing with his hands when he came out.
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:48 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes. When he reaches for the gun, given the distance and the limit of such things as rubber bullets and tasers, it is the minimal force needed.
What gun? Where were the police? If the police were beyond the range limit for tasers and rubber bullets, were they also out of the effective range of a handgun (I doubt the police thought the victim was hiding a rifle in his waistband) that might have been hidden on the victim?

If the police had done nothing that day everyone would have come out far ahead of where they are now.
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Old 31st December 2017, 03:55 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What gun? Where were the police? If the police were beyond the range limit for tasers and rubber bullets, were they also out of the effective range of a handgun (I doubt the police thought the victim was hiding a rifle in his waistband) that might have been hidden on the victim?

If the police had done nothing that day everyone would have come out far ahead of where they are now.
Agreed.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:01 PM   #234
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The guy police arrested calls himself a "professional swatter."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.65f879638b75
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/12/...atting-attack/

If the cops know this is going on -- and they obviously do -- that's all the more reason to exercise restraint.

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Old 31st December 2017, 04:05 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The guy police arrested calls himself a "professional swatter."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.65f879638b75

If the cops know this is going on -- and they obviously do -- that's all the more reason to exercise restraint.
Or, if they know that people have been making false calls to the police pretty much since phones existed, they'd always exercise restraint.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:31 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
For what it's worth, it might bear mention that this call wasn't received in the form of a "tip" from a neighbor or a passerby about a possible situation, or even a victim calling for "help"; the swatter portrayed himself on the phone to the police as the gunman, claimed to have killed and taken hostages and doused the house with gasoline. He also emphasized to the police that he was presently armed and would not be surrendering or putting away his weapon.

And how did the cops know that it wasn't one of those hostages who was being forced to answer the door?

They certainly didn't take the time to find out.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:39 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
What's even more bizarre is that, in such a scenario, we're all for some reason supposed to make allowances for how terrified the cops must be feeling.

It's pretty mind-boggling. It gets even worse when it's used as an attempt to minimize punishment of the offending officer.

And worse still when some damn fool inevitably says, "He just killed an innocent person; the cop is suffering enough!" I've never seen that applied to any regular citizen accused of voluntary manslaughter.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
For what it's worth, it might bear mention that this call wasn't received in the form of a "tip" from a neighbor or a passerby about a possible situation, or even a victim calling for "help"; the swatter portrayed himself on the phone to the police as the gunman, claimed to have killed and taken hostages and doused the house with gasoline. He also emphasized to the police that he was presently armed and would not be surrendering or putting away his weapon.

The cops demanded he show them his hands. He complied, and it seems they were convinced that his hands were empty. This would mean that the suspect had put away his weapon, which you claim he previously said he would not do. This, in turn, would indicate that perhaps the situation had changed.
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Old 31st December 2017, 04:52 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes. When he reaches for the gun, given the distance and the limit of such things as rubber bullets and tasers, it is the minimal force needed.
"Reaches for the gun"? What gun? Of course the police didn't take the time to assess if the man was armed or not.
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Old 31st December 2017, 05:03 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There isn't anything to indicate they did not use proper risk management based on the statement "Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations."
Well, there is, actually. If they had used proper risk management, as opposed to whatever the hell it is that they did, they would have allowed for the very reasonable possibilities that this was a hoax call, that they might have responded to the wrong address, that the supposed shooter might have sent a hostage to the door, that one of the hostages might have overpowered the shooter, or that the shooter may have decided to surrender his gun. As it was, it doesn't even seem that they'd prepared for the possibility that an armed shooter might answer the door, because if they'd prepared properly for that they wouldn't have been positioned so vulnerably that they needed to respond with deadly force to anything vaguely suggestive of reaching for a gun. At the very best the police department is guilty of criminal negligence, in that they failed to make effective preparations for any possibility other than immediate confrontation with an armed killer necessitating deadly force, and in doing so failed in any duty of care they may have had (although, it seems, in the US the police do not admit any such duty of care) to the safety of innocent bystanders or even other victims.

Really, the police's behaviour here is utterly indefensible.

Dave
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Old 31st December 2017, 05:39 PM   #240
Craig4
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Yes. When he reaches for the gun, given the distance and the limit of such things as rubber bullets and tasers, it is the minimal force needed.
But he did not reach for a gun.
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