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Old 31st December 2017, 06:09 PM   #241
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Well, there is, actually. If they had used proper risk management, as opposed to whatever the hell it is that they did, they would have allowed for the very reasonable possibilities that this was a hoax call, that they might have responded to the wrong address, that the supposed shooter might have sent a hostage to the door, that one of the hostages might have overpowered the shooter, or that the shooter may have decided to surrender his gun. As it was, it doesn't even seem that they'd prepared for the possibility that an armed shooter might answer the door, because if they'd prepared properly for that they wouldn't have been positioned so vulnerably that they needed to respond with deadly force to anything vaguely suggestive of reaching for a gun. At the very best the police department is guilty of criminal negligence, in that they failed to make effective preparations for any possibility other than immediate confrontation with an armed killer necessitating deadly force, and in doing so failed in any duty of care they may have had (although, it seems, in the US the police do not admit any such duty of care) to the safety of innocent bystanders or even other victims.

Really, the police's behaviour here is utterly indefensible.

Dave
It is easy to critique their risk assessment, but that doesn't mean it was incorrect. Again, the listed procedure is

Quote:
Risk assessment – is to be applied to all incidents and operations.
It does not specify how, or what weight to place on any given scenario.
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:10 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
But he did not reach for a gun.
Irrelevant for the procedures listed.
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:12 PM   #243
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"Doctor Schrodinger this is the police! Open up! We understand you have a gun in a quantum state of there and not there!"
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:13 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
"Doctor Schrodinger this is the police! Open up! We understand you have a gun in a quantum state of there and not there!"
A prediction that turns out wrong can still have been a good prediction.
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:21 PM   #245
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If you can't tell, I hate qualitative procedures and feel they are essentially meaningless. Here is how I would do it..

New rule: police are no longer permitted to presume someone is reaching for a weapon. Firing is only permitted after confirming the weapon is drawn. There is no exception for officer judgement. If a weapon is not present, it is proof the officer violated the rule.
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:23 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
As it was, it doesn't even seem that they'd prepared for the possibility that an armed shooter might answer the door, because if they'd prepared properly for that they wouldn't have been positioned so vulnerably that they needed to respond with deadly force to anything vaguely suggestive of reaching for a gun.

I'd also point out the reckless disregard for the safety of the supposed hostages. I've not heard that the officers had confirmed the location of the hostages, which means a missed shot has the possibility of striking one of them.

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Old 31st December 2017, 06:35 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I'd also point out the reckless disregard for the safety of the supposed hostages. I've not heard that the officers had confirmed the location of the hostages, which means a missed shot has the possibility of striking one of them.
Reckless disregard seems to be a state of mind. If you ask him afterwards and he says he considered that, then you don't have disregard. He regarded the situation and came to a different answer.

Regard is merely "attention to or concern for something." The concern by two different people can produce two different strategies.
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Old 31st December 2017, 06:42 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sounds like a movie plot. We'll call it "BobCop001". The police are paid $10 million a year in salary. The sequel has the cops carrying flintlock muzzleloaders. Radical Hollywood blockbuster.
You sound like my suggestion is so wildly unreasonable that cops would have to be paid $10 million a year to go to work. Cops rarely draw their guns on the job, and most never shoot at anyone in their entire lives. If a cop pointing a gun at a human being has to pause and say "I better be sure about this" before he pulls the trigger, it's better for everybody, including him. He sure as hell shouldn't expect a free pass.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:14 PM   #249
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'None of this makes sense:' Prank call victim's mother pleads for answers

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/31/us/kan...nch/index.html

Quote:
Three days after the incident, Finch said there is still blood on the carpet where her son lay dying. She also said she has gotten little support from authorities, did not get an opportunity to identify her son's body, and has no idea where his body is being kept.
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Old 31st December 2017, 07:55 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Irrelevant for the procedures listed.
Res ipsa loquitur. The thing speaks for itself. He did not reach for a gun. The officer used force to stop something that was not happening.
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Old 31st December 2017, 09:14 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
How 'bout a new system? When a cop kills a civilian, he is betting that the citizen is armed and poses an imminent threat. If the subject really is armed and really is a threat, the cop wins the bet; if not, which would include a citizen being lawfully armed in a non-threatening manner, the cop goes to prison is fried on the electric chair. No "I was scared," no "It was stressful," no "but he moved his hands!" You place your bet, and you win or you lose.
The risks have to be equal.
Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sounds like a movie plot. We'll call it "BobCop001". The police are paid $10 million a year in salary.
Taxi drivers also earn $10m a year? I remind you that taxi drivers have a higher risk of getting killed on the job than police officers.

In fact, from what I've seen of salaries of US officers compared to those in other countries, they already get a good salary.
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Old 31st December 2017, 09:25 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
Police claim that all those unfortunate deads are due to dumb civilians not reacting appropriately to swat teams, and not anything wrong with their procedure.

Let them prove it.

Ideally you could have a regulatory agency make the "prank" calls and see if police have higher survivability on the receiving end that anyone else. If so you could start "swat survival" courses for homeowners, if not maybe something is wrong with procedures.

In either case their collegas would motivate the swat teams to reduce lethality and assault on homeowners dignity.

Making it something like 10-20% of total calls sounds reasonable to me, there is a shortage of suitable targets anyway.

Won't you prefer feedback on your performance from a fellow professional rather than some possible dopehead on a suspected weed possession because that search warrant was the best swat target you could find that week.

(This idea gets better and better.)
Of course, citizens can decide to start this scheme by themselves. Start with cops with a known history of trigger-happiness. It might just work when there's a number of deaths of near-deaths among the victims of such swattings. Of course, what speaks against it is that the US has something like 14,000 different police corps. It's hard to get some learning across to so many.
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Old 31st December 2017, 09:55 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
The cops demanded he show them his hands. He complied, and it seems they were convinced that his hands were empty. This would mean that the suspect had put away his weapon, which you claim he previously said he would not do. This, in turn, would indicate that perhaps the situation had changed.
It's not "which I claim"; the recording of the swatter's phone call to police has been publicly released.

And I don't see why it would indicate the situation had changed; unless you consider a gun in a pocket or a waistband to have been "put away".
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Old 31st December 2017, 09:59 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's not "which I claim"; the recording of the swatter's phone call to police has been publicly released.

And I don't see why it would indicate the situation had changed; unless you consider a gun in a pocket or a waistband to have been "put away".
I simply can't believe this post. The swatter's phone call was ******** from start to finish. Proper police would not have responded the way these cowboys did. They would have followed professional procedure.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:14 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
They would have followed professional procedure.
Given how often American police in multiple cities have managed to kill innocent people under these or very similar circumstances, I find myself wondering what this "professional procedure" is that you speak of, and where the alleged professionals who follow it are hiding.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:27 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Given how often American police in multiple cities have managed to kill innocent people under these or very similar circumstances, I find myself wondering what this "professional procedure" is that you speak of, and where the alleged professionals who follow it are hiding.
I've posted these procedures three times in this thread. The professional police are not hiding out. They are in Europe, Australia, Canada and many other places. I have pointed out that in my state of Victoria with 6 million people, police manage, on average, to kill about one person a year. Something I can assure you that police are not happy about and are striving to reduce this rate.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:36 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Given how often American police in multiple cities have managed to kill innocent people under these or very similar circumstances, I find myself wondering what this "professional procedure" is that you speak of, and where the alleged professionals who follow it are hiding.
Seeing. A. ***********. Gun.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:44 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Given how often American police in multiple cities have managed to kill innocent people under these or very similar circumstances, I find myself wondering what this "professional procedure" is that you speak of, and where the alleged professionals who follow it are hiding.

Good work proving lionking's point.

You couldn't have done better if you were agreeing with him.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:45 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I've posted these procedures three times in this thread. The professional police are not hiding out. They are in Europe, Australia, Canada and many other places.
Oh well that solves the problem then; American police aren't proper professionals because they never asked "What would they do in Australia where guns are for the most part banned and an armed hostage situation is extremely unlikely rather than a daily occurrence like it is here?" when drafting their departmental procedures on how to respond to self-reported active shooters. I guess all we have to do is import some proper professionals from the right countries.

Having a look at Australian hostage crises - I'm a simpleton so I'm just going to look on Wikipedia - the first one of note I find is a situation in Sydney only a few years ago. Results: hostage-taker dead, one hostage killed by hostage-taker during police raid, one hostage killed by police during police raid, three other hostages and one police officer wounded in crossfire during police raid. Says the article,


Quote:
During the siege no significant effort was made to negotiate with Monis, as would normally be expected in a hostage situation in order to build a relationship with a gunman and persuade them to surrender.[46] Instead, Monis received no encouragement or assistance from trained police negotiators.[42]

Help was offered by the Muslim community including the Grand Mufti and Mamdouh Habib who had known Monis personally. Habib offered to help negotiate or provide background information to the police. These offers were not taken up.[43]

It has been suggested that the police treatment of the siege as a terrorist attack may have led to errors such as making no attempt to negotiate with the gunman as would have been normal practice in other hostage situations.[46] One commentator, Guy Rundle, questioned whether the police may have used a "crude rule" that "we don't negotiate with terrorists" that affected their procedures.[186] It might also explain the use of high calibre weapons in a small enclosure against a lone gunman.[72] These factors may have directly led to the deaths of Johnson and Dawson.[186]
In retrospect it seems to me the police in our case may very well have taken a page out of Australia's hostage-situation-response procedures.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:50 PM   #260
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Ooh. Don't say guns have been banned in Australia.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:53 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Oh well that solves the problem then; American police aren't proper professionals because they never asked "What would they do in Australia where guns are for the most part banned and an armed hostage situation is extremely unlikely rather than a daily occurrence like it is here?" when drafting their departmental procedures on how to respond to self-reported active shooters. I guess all we have to do is import some proper professionals from the right countries.

Having a look at Australian hostage crises - I'm a simpleton so I'm just going to look on Wikipedia - the first one of note I find is a situation in Sydney only a few years ago. Results: hostage-taker dead, one hostage killed by hostage-taker during police raid, one hostage killed by police during police raid, three other hostages and one police officer wounded in crossfire during police raid. Says the article,




In retrospect it seems to me the police in our case may very well have taken a page out of Australia's hostage-situation-response procedures.
Well done. You have come up the one example in recent history where the procedure did not work perfectly. Never mind that most hostages were rescued. And guess what? Police have looked at and learnt from this siege.

So would you have cowboys charge into the cafe guns blazing? Resulting in almost certain carnage?

The action of the cops in Wichita was disgraceful.
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:55 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
One possible solution would be a massive campaign of swatting against police officers, their relatives, and assorted politicians enabling the current policies.

With luck enough deaths among their own will lead to a rethinking akind to lionkings example above.

I suspect that a large part of the US police is irredeemably damaged by "urban warrior" training/mentality and the lack of consequences for assorted brutality.
I hate to say that MIGHT work............
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Old 31st December 2017, 10:56 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Oh well that solves the problem then; American police aren't proper professionals because they never asked "What would they do in Australia where guns are for the most part banned and an armed hostage situation is extremely unlikely rather than a daily occurrence like it is here?" when drafting their departmental procedures on how to respond to self-reported active shooters. I guess all we have to do is import some proper professionals from the right countries.

Having a look at Australian hostage crises - I'm a simpleton so I'm just going to look on Wikipedia - the first one of note I find is a situation in Sydney only a few years ago. Results: hostage-taker dead, one hostage killed by hostage-taker during police raid, one hostage killed by police during police raid, three other hostages and one police officer wounded in crossfire during police raid. Says the article,




In retrospect it seems to me the police in our case may very well have taken a page out of Australia's hostage-situation-response procedures.
Also, please show a link to what you have quoted here. Guy Rundle, quoted here, is a blogger with no qualifications or experience in policing or hostage situations.
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Old 31st December 2017, 11:01 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I agree with the highlighted but don't see why you believe that instigating the conversation the responsibility of the person who was minding his own business and suddenly found himself surrounded by armed police with a spotlight in his face (and who it can be reasonably assumed was surprised and disoriented) rather than the professionals who had been sent to control the situation?
Clearly in a lot of cases the police do not deserve to be thought of as professionals.
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Old 31st December 2017, 11:58 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And guess what? Police have looked at and learnt from this siege.
American police say that every time they kill another innocent person.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
So would you have cowboys charge into the cafe guns blazing? Resulting in almost certain carnage?
Would I "have" them? Of course not. Where in any of my posts have you read approval of this disgrace?

Guy Rundle's qualifications aside (the Wikipedia page I quoted is here by the way), I think his assessment is quite correct: once the Australian police decided that the situation was a "terrorist attack", they became locked into a mindset where the best possible way to respond to what was in every respect a very typical hostage situation took a backseat to the need to "not negotiate with terrorists" and to present a decisive, forceful response because "the world is watching" and Australia can't afford to look like a soft target to future terrorists.

American police are vulnerable in the same way. They live in a place where a substantial portion of the population legally owns guns which they are all too willing to turn on other people - to include the police - when they get drunk, or upset, or off their medicine. Like so many people here except for politicians who are insulated from the effects of gun violence and ammosexuals who get off on the thought of it, American police officers are alarmed and hypervigilant thanks to a neverending parade of mass casualty incidents, many of which begin in a manner not too differently from the way this situation reported itself to be developing. It is different from the Australia incident in that police didn't go into this situation thinking "terrorist"; rather, they went into it thinking "active shooter", and rather than a need to "not look weak to terrorists, officers were probably expecting to get shot and perhaps killed at the incident, and it looks like that mentality led one of them to overreact to the slightest perceived threat.

You say the Australian police have "learned". It's remarkable that three years later I have to take your (or the police's) word for that because as far as I can tell there hasn't been a similar situation since that time to compare their procedures against.

The United States isn't like that. You think this situation could be solved if "proper police procedures" were drafted and followed by "real professionals" that presumably involve not treating a suspected shooter as armed and dangerous until they've personally verified a threat. I say, that's not going to happen in this country. Just yesterday, a police officer was blown away and four others wounded in Denver. The shooter was barricaded in his room in an apartment. They had not seen him, and did not know for a fact he was armed until he shot them down through the locked door of his room; in fact they had no reason to even consider that he might possibly have a gun. The call was just for a report of the guy having mental issues and acting strangely. In this country cops get killed (or even just wounded) just that quick and on the simplest and most benign of calls.

Does that make the Wichita cop's overreaction forgivable? Perhaps not, but it makes it explainable, in a more useful way than dismissing the situations with platitudes like "tut tut, so unprofessional - not like proper police at all". It is also a situation that will not change as long as police in this country have to deal with a heavily armed populace.
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Old 1st January 2018, 12:23 AM   #266
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Apologetics 101. Disgraceful.
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Old 1st January 2018, 12:34 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
American police say that every time they kill another innocent person.



Would I "have" them? Of course not. Where in any of my posts have you read approval of this disgrace?

Guy Rundle's qualifications aside (the Wikipedia page I quoted is here by the way), I think his assessment is quite correct: once the Australian police decided that the situation was a "terrorist attack", they became locked into a mindset where the best possible way to respond to what was in every respect a very typical hostage situation took a backseat to the need to "not negotiate with terrorists" and to present a decisive, forceful response because "the world is watching" and Australia can't afford to look like a soft target to future terrorists.

American police are vulnerable in the same way. They live in a place where a substantial portion of the population legally owns guns which they are all too willing to turn on other people - to include the police - when they get drunk, or upset, or off their medicine. Like so many people here except for politicians who are insulated from the effects of gun violence and ammosexuals who get off on the thought of it, American police officers are alarmed and hypervigilant thanks to a neverending parade of mass casualty incidents, many of which begin in a manner not too differently from the way this situation reported itself to be developing. It is different from the Australia incident in that police didn't go into this situation thinking "terrorist"; rather, they went into it thinking "active shooter", and rather than a need to "not look weak to terrorists, officers were probably expecting to get shot and perhaps killed at the incident, and it looks like that mentality led one of them to overreact to the slightest perceived threat.

You say the Australian police have "learned". It's remarkable that three years later I have to take your (or the police's) word for that because as far as I can tell there hasn't been a similar situation since that time to compare their procedures against.

The United States isn't like that. You think this situation could be solved if "proper police procedures" were drafted and followed by "real professionals" that presumably involve not treating a suspected shooter as armed and dangerous until they've personally verified a threat. I say, that's not going to happen in this country. Just yesterday, a police officer was blown away and four others wounded in Denver. The shooter was barricaded in his room in an apartment. They had not seen him, and did not know for a fact he was armed until he shot them down through the locked door of his room; in fact they had no reason to even consider that he might possibly have a gun. The call was just for a report of the guy having mental issues and acting strangely. In this country cops get killed (or even just wounded) just that quick and on the simplest and most benign of calls.

Does that make the Wichita cop's overreaction forgivable? Perhaps not, but it makes it explainable, in a more useful way than dismissing the situations with platitudes like "tut tut, so unprofessional - not like proper police at all". It is also a situation that will not change as long as police in this country have to deal with a heavily armed populace.
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Old 1st January 2018, 12:52 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It is also a situation that will not change as long as police in this country have to deal with a heavily armed populace.
Or, apparently, an unarmed populace.
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Old 1st January 2018, 01:20 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Oh well that solves <<SNIP>>
How's about this then? You call the the Local Court House instead of 911- You deserve to die? That should solve everything ...
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:14 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Or, apparently, an unarmed populace.
Sadly, the unarmed people are the ones who pay the price.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:16 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is easy to critique their risk assessment, but that doesn't mean it was incorrect.
An innocent person was shot to death. That means that a deadly risk was not guarded against, which means that their risk assessment was incorrect. And every time someone says that the police officer who shot him had to shoot the moment he thought there might be a gun, they're admitting that another deadly risk - that of the police officer being too close and out of cover - was also not properly considered. Their risk assessment, if they actually bothered to do one, was a steaming pile of crap. The fact that somebody died in such a senseless way is irrefutable evidence.

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Old 1st January 2018, 03:18 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Given how often American police in multiple cities have managed to kill innocent people under these or very similar circumstances, I find myself wondering what this "professional procedure" is that you speak of, and where the alleged professionals who follow it are hiding.
Outside the USA.

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Old 1st January 2018, 03:28 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
'None of this makes sense:' Prank call victim's mother pleads for answers

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/31/us/kan...nch/index.html
Utterly disgraceful. But quite apparently par for the course when dealing with US police.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:30 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOM!!!!!!!
Perhaps you jest, but therein lies hidden truth. As long as entities with power in the US push to maintain a situation where people can legally amass weaponry while denying law enforcement the tools to keep track of who is armed and who is not, police will continue to act like everyone is a potential threat.
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:07 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Perhaps you jest, but therein lies hidden truth. As long as entities with power in the US push to maintain a situation where people can legally amass weaponry while denying law enforcement the tools to keep track of who is armed and who is not, police will continue to act like everyone is a potential threat.
I think there's more to it than that. We've heard in this thread and in other similar ones how it's impossible to generalise about the police in the US, because there are so many different organisations of widely differing sizes. It seems to me that this is not a bug but a feature; the police in the US are so decentralised that it's quite impossible for any overall control of policing, meaning that it's almost impossible for a police state to come into being without ground-up reconstruction of the whole system. It's seen as desirable in that respect, and in the respect of protecting state rights from federal power, and many other similar arguments; however, it makes it equally impossible to enforce standards of training, discipline, professionalism or even basic operating principles, resulting in a widely varying standard of quality of law enforcement. And so some police departments handle armed sieges well, and others go in with guns blazing. And as long as the system is set up actively to prevent any oversight, as witness for example the impossibility of even getting accurate numbers for police shootings nationwide, then that level of inconsistency will be as resilient and long-lasting as the level of perceived threat.

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Old 1st January 2018, 04:19 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
What information was needed? That the murderer/hostage-taker/arsonist is on the first floor of a one-story house?
In Scotland there would be a check made of all police systems to gather intelligence on the house and anyone likely to be inside. So, for example, a report is made of illegal guns in a house. If a check of all systems finds that there is nothing to back that claim up and the householder is not involved in any crime, instead of a firearms raid, a couple of unarmed cops will go and speak to the householder and request a check is made.

Any report made that could lead to a house search/raid has to be preceded by intelligence gathering as a way of assessing the credibility of the initial report.

I would not be surprised at all if in the USA that is often missed out. The culture is to shoot first and ask questions later.
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:21 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They assessed the call, considered what the situation was when they got there, and determined they needed to take the action they did.

They contained and controlled to the full extent possible based on the risk assessment.
What checks did they do on the house and anyone likely inside? Can a check be made of crime reports and calls to the premises to see if there is any history of say domestic violence, or a resident has mental health issues?
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:24 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Decision making is based on available evidence ex ante. Occasionally, the final event does not match the assessment in the moment.
Cops who already have a subject in their sights, aimed at, have a huge advantage over someone with a gun tucked into their waist band behind their back.

Why is it so risky that the cops cannot wait to see if a hand movement actually results in a gun appearing from behind the back?
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:31 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Toke View Post
Think of the innocents saved.

When nobody else can, maybe the rest of the police department can rein in their swat team.
After the swat team have roughed up enough family members in the department, one could imagine an internal reassessment of their methods and justification for existence. (Doubt any deaths are needed)

Do you have better ideas?
Yes.

1 - punish the cops who shoot unarmed people in raids.
2 -train cops to be better at responding to apparent threats such as going for a concealed gun tucked in the back waistband. I know there are training set ups where cops can practice their reactions to people suddenly appearing or producing items in the hands, from the old fashioned cuts outs that spring into view, to modern VR set ups.
3 - a requirement to gather intelligence on a house prior to a raid. If there is nothing to back up the initial report that there is a hostage situation, the police approach should not be as extreme as if there is. If there is no intelligence of issues with that household an initial approach by cops to check shoud be done first. That should be combined with 4
4 -a verification check of the call made claiming there is a hostage situation in the first place. Ensure that the person calling is properly identified and located and if that cannot be done, it must be assumed this may be a hoax and the initail approach should be scaled down.
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:37 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you can't tell, I hate qualitative procedures and feel they are essentially meaningless. Here is how I would do it..

New rule: police are no longer permitted to presume someone is reaching for a weapon. Firing is only permitted after confirming the weapon is drawn. There is no exception for officer judgement. If a weapon is not present, it is proof the officer violated the rule.


I would add that there needs to be a set procedure regarding suspects producing guns as they may wish to surrender and hand over their weapon.

So, the police are required to ask if the suspect has a weapon. If the suspect says no, but then produces a gun, he can be shot, even if the gun is not aimed at the cops. The suspect lied and is acting in a manner that suggests he is a threat. Otherwise,the police cannot shoot unless the gun is being lifted and pointed at them so that it can be shot.
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