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Old 1st January 2018, 12:22 PM   #321
Elagabalus
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That touches on another strange aspect of this case. Why did the Court House take this call at all? Why didn't they say: "Sorry, for emergencies call 911. Good day <click>" ?
My local pharmacy says exactly that on their answering machine. If someone called my home phone and gave me this story I'd tell him to **** off and call 911.
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Old 1st January 2018, 12:47 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The distinction is meaningless; the man is dead and he wasn't reaching for a gun.
Meaningless distinction is not permission to inaccurately describe something.
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Old 1st January 2018, 01:20 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Presumably you have some figures to back that up?
You are skeptical that the United States is as violent compared to Australia as I say?

According to this list, Australia has .16 gun-related homicides per 100,000 people, while the United States has 3.6. That's more than twenty-two times higher - and that's just going strictly per capita. When you take the actual number of people in each country - 24 million vs 308 million - the reality of the matter becomes more striking: crunching the numbers gives you less than 40 gun homicides nationwide per year in Australia, while according to the FBI's numbers during the last census year of 2010 there were 8,374 gun homicides in the US that year, which makes 23 gun killings per day in this country. So yes, dealing with gun killings is quite literally a daily affair here, several times daily in fact. And that's only counting events where somebody is actually killed with a gun; we're not even breaching the matter of crimes where an armed individual is involved but nobody manages to die.
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Old 1st January 2018, 02:03 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You are skeptical that the United States is as violent compared to Australia as I say?

According to this list, Australia has .16 gun-related homicides per 100,000 people, while the United States has 3.6. That's more than twenty-two times higher - and that's just going strictly per capita. When you take the actual number of people in each country - 24 million vs 308 million - the reality of the matter becomes more striking: crunching the numbers gives you less than 40 gun homicides nationwide per year in Australia, while according to the FBI's numbers during the last census year of 2010 there were 8,374 gun homicides in the US that year, which makes 23 gun killings per day in this country. So yes, dealing with gun killings is quite literally a daily affair here, several times daily in fact. And that's only counting events where somebody is actually killed with a gun; we're not even breaching the matter of crimes where an armed individual is involved but nobody manages to die.
That's not what you were being asked, and you know it. You were asked to support your assertion that armed hostage situations are a daily occurrence in the US.
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Old 1st January 2018, 02:30 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
In which someone appears to be going for a weapon.

Mistakes get people killed, whether we are talking driving, hunting, welding or dealing with an intense police situation.
No. They are now past the assess phase into the action phase. The victim only came out because they demanded he come out.
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Old 1st January 2018, 02:48 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
Well that's the problem. Why should the (supposedly) trained professional cop get more leeway to make a mistake than a civilian?
This question has been asked and asked and just aggressively ignored. I'd appreciate an answer from the extreme police apologetic side.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:02 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
This question has been asked and asked and just aggressively ignored. I'd appreciate an answer from the extreme police apologetic side.
I'm in no way an apologist for the cops. But the argument most often made is that cops are required to expose themselves to danger for the benefit of the community in ways that civilians are not. Certainly has some merit, but not without limits.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:08 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'm in no way an apologist for the cops. But the argument most often made is that cops are required to expose themselves to danger for the benefit of the community in ways that civilians are not. Certainly has some merit, but not without limits.
No merit in that argument for me. Being exposed to danger is in a cop's job description and doesn't give them more leeway either legally of procedurally.

Yes, police management must do all they can to minimise risk, hence operating procedures which I have posted before.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:08 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
In which someone appears to be going for a weapon.

Mistakes get people killed, whether we are talking driving, hunting, welding or dealing with an intense police situation.
You perhaps haven't worked out the collary to your argument.. A member of the public seeing a police officer making a move towards her belt shoots the police officer, after all someone appears to be going for a weapon.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:20 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'm in no way an apologist for the cops. But the argument most often made is that cops are required to expose themselves to danger for the benefit of the community in ways that civilians are not. Certainly has some merit, but not without limits.

Does it? "Certainly"?

That argument has certainly been put forward, but it has been put forward by cop-groupie apologists who want to try and romanticize the occupation in their never-ending efforts to justify the criminal behavior of out-of-control cops.

Actual statistics suggest otherwise.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:22 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A member of the public seeing a police officer making a move towards her belt shoots the police officer, after all someone appears to be going for a weapon.
I can't wait to hear all the "But it's not the same because of... reasons."
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:25 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I can't wait to hear all the "But it's not the same because of... reasons."

It's obvious.

If a cop is going for his gun he would only have a really good reason to do so.

Like maybe he told someone to show him their ID ...

... and then 'felt threatened'.
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Old 1st January 2018, 03:42 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Does it? "Certainly"?

That argument has certainly been put forward, but it has been put forward by cop-groupie apologists who want to try and romanticize the occupation in their never-ending efforts to justify the criminal behavior of out-of-control cops.

Actual statistics suggest otherwise.
Yes, I agree. Police work is not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs, and I have posted links like this in other threads.
http://time.com/5074471/most-dangerous-jobs/

But police work is the only job where the holder is required to confront and control people who might be dangerous, in a society where literally anybody might be packing heat. That doesn't excuse killing somebody on the basis of a wrong guess. I don't justify or minimize police misconduct, and I hope this cop gets prosecuted.
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:36 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Yes, I agree. Police work is not even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs, and I have posted links like this in other threads.
http://time.com/5074471/most-dangerous-jobs/

But police work is the only job where the holder is required to confront and control people who might be dangerous, in a society where literally anybody might be packing heat. That doesn't excuse killing somebody on the basis of a wrong guess. I don't justify or minimize police misconduct, and I hope this cop gets prosecuted.
It doesn't excuse killing somebody on the basis of any guess, which is the problem with this situation. If the murderer had seen a gun - what the hell, even a toy gun - few of us would get quite so worked up over this. It would still be problematic since the victim hadn't done anything that would call for police intervention, but at the end of the day a gun's a gun.

There is simply no way that the law or this murderer's operating procedures allow for him shooting a suspect in the absence of an actual threat. All the excuses and nutty police-are-always-right justifications in the world can't get around that.
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:49 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That's not what you were being asked, and you know it. You were asked to support your assertion that armed hostage situations are a daily occurrence in the US.
This is a bad-faith semantical niggle. Armed hostages specifically being a daily occurrence is a humorous exaggeration; but it is certainly true that it happens orders of magnitude more often in the US than authorities in Australia have to deal with, just like ALL forms of criminal gun violence, and you know it.

Armed-criminal engagement procedures designed to meet the realities of situations that police face in Australia - or anywhere else in the world for that matter with such a tremendously low incidence and probability of gun violence during police-public interaction compared to this country - are wholly inadequate for use here.
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Old 1st January 2018, 04:57 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I'm in no way an apologist for the cops. But the argument most often made is that cops are required to expose themselves to danger for the benefit of the community in ways that civilians are not.
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But police work is the only job where the holder is required to confront and control people who might be dangerous, in a society where literally anybody might be packing heat.

Andrew Finch had no choice that would have avoided the danger foisted upon him. Cops, at least, choose to be cops.
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Old 1st January 2018, 05:40 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post

But police work is the only job where the holder is required to confront and control people who might be dangerous, in a society where literally anybody might be packing heat. That doesn't excuse killing somebody on the basis of a wrong guess. I don't justify or minimize police misconduct, and I hope this cop gets prosecuted.

If they can't take the heat then they shouldn't ask to be paid to go in the kitchen.

They could take some lower-paying, more dangerous job. Like garbage collector.

They'd even still be performing a public service that benefits society.

They just wouldn't get to wear a flashy uniform with a badge, swagger around wearing a gunbelt loaded with fancy cop gadgets, pretend to 'protect and serve', play with all sorts of neat military surplus stuff for free, ...

... and kill people with impunity.
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Old 1st January 2018, 06:00 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Andrew Finch had no choice that would have avoided the danger foisted upon him. Cops, at least, choose to be cops.

And to into the situation equipped for it, with back up, equipment, and authority. The cops in a case like this arrive at the scene knowing they are going into a potential confrontation. The victim didn't.
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Old 1st January 2018, 07:01 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
And to into the situation equipped for it, with back up, equipment, and authority. The cops in a case like this arrive at the scene knowing they are going into a potential confrontation. The victim didn't.

If only Leslie Nielsen had been standing out in front of the house with a bullhorn, just to give him some idea of the caliber of LEO he was being confronted with.
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Old 1st January 2018, 08:10 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It doesn't excuse killing somebody on the basis of any guess, which is the problem with this situation. If the murderer had seen a gun - what the hell, even a toy gun - few of us would get quite so worked up over this. It would still be problematic since the victim hadn't done anything that would call for police intervention, but at the end of the day a gun's a gun.

There is simply no way that the law or this murderer's operating procedures allow for him shooting a suspect in the absence of an actual threat. All the excuses and nutty police-are-always-right justifications in the world can't get around that.
Disagree. Tamir Rice. Someone called the cops saying someone was pointing a gun at people. Cops arrived, saw a gun (toy it turns out), say they felt threatened and shot him. That did not go over well at this forum.

Kids that age do shoot people so it wasn't just his age. I'm not saying it was a good shoot, I'm saying people are hypocrites and will pick and choose what outrages them.

Not saying the cop was right in this recent situation or not either. The guy could have fired at the cops though and people here would still complain if the cops shot back (what about the hostages??? Neighbors? Pet cat?).

The real bad guy is the one who called the cops with a fake report. That dude is a real piece of crap.

This cop has to live with what he did for the rest of his life, and he'd have to be damned cold blooded for it not to affect him. Still, if he screwed up then so be it.

I will think about if and why cops should be given more leeway than citizens when it comes to bad shootings. My initial reaction is to say yes they should to some degree. We expect them to carry firearms on the job. People make mistakes on the job. Most citizens involved in a shooting shouldn't have the gun there probably in the first place. Not a great argument maybe but I haven't thought about it.

Also it may be more difficult to recruit people.

I don't know though, I'm not sure how I feel about it. Truthfully, I don't care to think about it too much right now because I worked all day and I'm tired.

I think everyone knows what they hoped the story would tell them before ever reading the article. Some want a bad shooting, others want those people to be wrong. "Oh boy another bad shooting! Post it now! This is the one that will finally turn everything around!"
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Old 1st January 2018, 08:26 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Disagree. Tamir Rice. Someone called the cops saying someone was pointing a gun at people. Cops arrived, saw a gun (toy it turns out), say they felt threatened and shot him. That did not go over well at this forum.
Take it to the right thread. There are a lot of reasons that was a murder, too.
Quote:
Not saying the cop was right in this recent situation or not either. The guy could have fired at the cops though and people here would still complain if the cops shot back (what about the hostages??? Neighbors? Pet cat?).
I guess it's a good thing we're not talking about some imaginary situation with an imaginary gun...oh, well, I guess we are talking about an imaginary gun.
Quote:
The real bad guy is the one who called the cops with a fake report. That dude is a real piece of crap.
********. He's a bad guy, but the "real" bad guy is the one who murdered an unarmed person because he imagined that the bad guy might have a gun and might have been reaching for it.
Quote:
This cop has to live with what he did for the rest of his life, and he'd have to be damned cold blooded for it not to affect him.
That's something for him and his family to worry about it. Personally, I don't give two ***** about his feelings, and I bet you'd say the same if we were talking about a drunk driver rather than a scaredy-cop.
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Also it may be more difficult to recruit people.
There hasn't been a shortage so far of lousy people willing to be lousy cops.
Quote:
I think everyone knows what they hoped the story would tell them before ever reading the article. Some want a bad shooting, others want those people to be wrong. "Oh boy another bad shooting! Post it now! This is the one that will finally turn everything around!"
Yeah, the real problem is the people who are sick to death of police officers shooting unarmed people and getting away with it.
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Old 1st January 2018, 08:35 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You perhaps haven't worked out the collary to your argument.. A member of the public seeing a police officer making a move towards her belt shoots the police officer, after all someone appears to be going for a weapon.
In California, there are two applicable secections of the penal code dealing with use of force (any level) against a law enforcement officer:

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-co...sect-834a.html

If a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from using force or any weapon to resist such arrest.


https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...sectionNum=148.

(a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

So as far as California goes, there would be a very high bar for someone to successfully claim any self defense use of force against a LEO.
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Old 1st January 2018, 08:38 PM   #343
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I don't understand these types of actions. The police have their guns drawn and on target (with finger on the trigger?). How long does it take (for the suspect) to pull a weapon and get it on target vs how long it takes the police to positively identify a gun and pull the trigger? I've always heard that you will not win if you try to draw on an already drawn gun.
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Old 1st January 2018, 09:05 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Disagree. Tamir Rice. Someone called the cops saying someone was pointing a gun at people. Cops arrived, saw a gun (toy it turns out), say they felt threatened and shot him. That did not go over well at this forum.

Probably because the cops didn't bother to take even the most elementary steps to assess the situation. (sound familiar?) They quite literally drove up hell-bent-for-leather and started shooting almost before their car door was all the way open.

Quote:

<snip>

I will think about if and why cops should be given more leeway than citizens when it comes to bad shootings. My initial reaction is to say yes they should to some degree. We expect them to carry firearms on the job. People make mistakes on the job.

Most people's on-the-job mistakes don't end up with innocent people dead.

Quote:
Most citizens involved in a shooting shouldn't have the gun there probably in the first place.

You mean ... the way this guy didn't have a gun?

Quote:
<snip>

Also it may be more difficult to recruit people.

<snip>

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Maybe a more rigorous selection procedure would be a good thing.
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Old 1st January 2018, 09:10 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
This cop has to live with what he did for the rest of his life, and he'd have to be damned cold blooded for it not to affect him.

I doubt anyone is suggesting the officer be charged with anything that requires malice aforethought, so how is this relevant in the least? (Except, as I suggested earlier, as an attempt to minimize punishment for a person with poor judgement in control of a lethal weapon.)

Quote:
Still, if he screwed up then so be it.

In what dystopian fantasy does your mind fester where the death of an innocent, unarmed civilian might even remotely be considered not a screw up by the person whose decision it was to shoot or not shoot?

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Old 1st January 2018, 10:24 PM   #346
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Is m86 suggesting that the feeling of guilt is punishment enough for the reckless actions of police officers?
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Old 1st January 2018, 11:04 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Is m86 suggesting that the feeling of guilt is punishment enough for the reckless actions of police officers?
It seems to be a common sentiment when it comes to murderous cops and parents (mostly mothers) whose children die as a result of their negligence.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:07 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
It seems to be a common sentiment when it comes to murderous cops and parents (mostly mothers) whose children die as a result of their negligence.
It's very disturbing that people think the punishment for a crime should depend on the perpetrator's class/position/job.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:59 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In California, there are two applicable secections of the penal code dealing with use of force (any level) against a law enforcement officer:

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-co...sect-834a.html

If a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from using force or any weapon to resist such arrest.


https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...sectionNum=148.

(a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

So as far as California goes, there would be a very high bar for someone to successfully claim any self defense use of force against a LEO.
Thanks, interesting to see how the legislators recognised the stupidity of the argument in one direction. Is there similar legislation to protect the non peace officer from the peace officer or is it only the untrained, non professional member of the general public who are expected to be able to use "common sense"?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:41 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
I don't understand these types of actions. The police have their guns drawn and on target (with finger on the trigger?). How long does it take (for the suspect) to pull a weapon and get it on target vs how long it takes the police to positively identify a gun and pull the trigger? I've always heard that you will not win if you try to draw on an already drawn gun.
If you're holding a person at gunpoint, your finger should not be on the trigger. It should be outstretched along the side the trigger.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:02 AM   #351
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I think police shoot people indiscriminately like this because they are scared. They are scared because the 2nd amendment allows for anyone to have guns.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:31 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
In California, there are two applicable secections of the penal code dealing with use of force (any level) against a law enforcement officer:

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-co...sect-834a.html

If a person has knowledge, or by the exercise of reasonable care, should have knowledge, that he is being arrested by a peace officer, it is the duty of such person to refrain from using force or any weapon to resist such arrest.


https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...sectionNum=148.

(a) (1) Every person who willfully resists, delays, or obstructs any public officer, peace officer, or an emergency medical technician, as defined in Division 2.5 (commencing with Section 1797) of the Health and Safety Code, in the discharge or attempt to discharge any duty of his or her office or employment, when no other punishment is prescribed, shall be punished by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment.

So as far as California goes, there would be a very high bar for someone to successfully claim any self defense use of force against a LEO.
So a LEO can use any kind of force regardless of legality or reason and citizens cannot legally defend themselves. That's.... terrifying.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:00 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
So a LEO can use any kind of force regardless of legality or reason and citizens cannot legally defend themselves. That's.... terrifying.
It would seem that from one direction legislators can see the "I thought she was reaching for a gun" is a terribly easy to abuse reason for a member of the public to shoot a police officer. Yet for some reason when the shooter is a police officer it becomes an apparent blanket unquestionable explanation for someone being killed.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:35 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
If you're holding a person at gunpoint, your finger should not be on the trigger. It should be outstretched along the side the trigger.
Yes, I agree, finger should not be on the trigger. Nothing in the story would indicate otherwise. However, there are plenty of You Tube videos showing police (who should know better) shooting themselves. Obviously they had the finger on the trigger.

I think it would be an interesting experiment:
2 people. One plays the cop, the other the suspect.
Cop has gun (lets use paintball guns) pointed at suspect.
Suspect pulls some item from waist area. If he pulls a cell phone, and the cop shoots, cop loses. Cop only wins if suspect pulls gun (paintball gun) and cop shoots him. Can the suspect ever get the gun drawn far enough to get a shot at the cop?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:55 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Is m86 suggesting that the feeling of guilt is punishment enough for the reckless actions of police officers?

I think he's saying any involuntary manslaughter charge should be met with 'He/she probably feels bad enough that there's no point in punishing the criminal further.

I think that's it. I may have the wrong end of the stick.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:08 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think he's saying any involuntary manslaughter charge should be met with 'He/she probably feels bad enough that there's no point in punishing the criminal further.

I think that's it. I may have the wrong end of the stick.

You do.

The victim criminal thug who is woken up in the middle of the night with bright lights, loud noises, and obviously hostile and aggressive men in black bursting into his house, and tries to defend himself and his family could never honestly feel remorse upon discovering that it was some cop doing his job.

So they would never deserve the benefit of that sort of doubt.

Only cops.

And mothers.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:18 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I think police shoot people indiscriminately like this because they are scared. They are scared because the 2nd amendment allows for anyone to have guns.
I think that's partly it, but it seems also that their level of training to continue to function while scared is excessively inconsistent because of the highly devolved nature of US policing.

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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:55 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by LongFuzzy View Post
....
I think it would be an interesting experiment:
2 people. One plays the cop, the other the suspect.
Cop has gun (lets use paintball guns) pointed at suspect.
Suspect pulls some item from waist area. If he pulls a cell phone, and the cop shoots, cop loses. Cop only wins if suspect pulls gun (paintball gun) and cop shoots him. Can the suspect ever get the gun drawn far enough to get a shot at the cop?
Beyond that, even if the guy could draw a gun completely, could he raise it, aim it -- under stress, probably with bright lights in his face -- and fire it before the cop could squeeze the trigger on his already drawn, already aimed firearm? Handguns are close-range weapons. At a distance of more than 20 feet or so, they have to be carefully aimed to hit a target, and that takes at least a little time.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:03 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Beyond that, even if the guy could draw a gun completely, could he raise it, aim it -- under stress, probably with bright lights in his face -- and fire it before the cop could squeeze the trigger on his already drawn, already aimed firearm? Handguns are close-range weapons. At a distance of more than 20 feet or so, they have to be carefully aimed to hit a target, and that takes at least a little time.
A skilled shooter with a handgun can hit a target well beyond 20 feet very quickly*... in daylight. With a spotlight directed at your face (and I've had those types of car powered spotlights pointed at me before), one can't really see anything, so no. Not to mention if you look at the left of the video, that cop at least appears to be under cover. Yeah, they would've been in no real jeopardy by waiting to see if "the shooter" actually had a gun before opening fire.

*I've personally seen a shooter draw and hit a 12" gong at 35 yards in under 2 seconds. Granted that was a 38 Super "race gun" with an ISPC competition holster.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 2nd January 2018 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:42 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Oh well that solves the problem then; American police aren't proper professionals because ....(rest of post snipped)
Looks like you nailed it here. Plenty of supporting evidence in this and many other police shooting threads in these forums.
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