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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:53 AM   #121
LTC8K6
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
I live right across the river from New Jersey. I HATE getting gas there. In the amount of time it takes to wait for an attendant to even start fueling, I could be done and on my way. It is such a giant waste of time, and that's just when its not busy. When a gas station gets busy, long lines form quickly and the problems just compound on each other. If the station had been self serve, a line that was 6 cars deep would be maybe 1 car deep. So much waste.

I dislike the jobs argument because I dislike silly laws that are in place just to keep people employed. As for the "but what about disabled people?/I don't want to pump my own gas!" There's a simple solution, just require stations to have at least one full service pump
I visited Atlantic City a few years ago. Had to get gas in NJ. Most ridiculous thing I ever saw. Long lines, lazy attendants, slow service, expected tips. There's nothing you can do but sit there and wait for the attendant to take his sweet time to get to your car.

Self service stations process 10X more customers an hour, I would bet.

Once Oregon stations see the much larger customer turnover, they will go self service, I'll bet.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:55 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Fizil View Post
That is weird. Even when I'm pumping manually the stupid sensors tend to force the pump off when I'm not even close to full at lots of stations near me. This is the most annoying part of these overflow sensors frankly, and the main reason I manually pump most of the time. I have a 12 gallon gas tank, and regularly going from near empty (where the car has detected I have less than 1 gallon of gas left), I have to keep overriding the overflow shutoff while pumping like 5 gallons of gasoline.
That could be a problem with your evaporative emissions control system on the tank and lines.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:56 AM   #123
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I have done a few experiments and the auto shutoff shuts off the pump even if you jam the cap in the handle. The way it works is independent of the handle position.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 10:57 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Pump nozzles used to have a flange on them you could flip down to keep the trigger depressed. It was removed for the safety reasons mentioned. Some people would then stick their gas cap in the handle to hold the trigger. Not advisable for the same safety reasons the hold down was eliminated.
I don't really buy the "safety" explanation.

California is a populous state, that allows self-service, and also allows for locking the pump open and walking away.

Drive-aways with the nozzle still attached to the car are apparently rare enough that they don't make the news, don't trigger legislation, and don't prompt station management to disable the feature. (Instead, gas stations seem to prefer investing in clean breakaway hoses.)

Whatever the safety issue, it seems to be pretty negligible. Certainly 48 states (and most of the rest of the western world) have figured out how to address it, without simply banning their citizens from doing something that evidence shows any reasonably competent adult can do.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:00 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Exactly the same as here in California.

Please don't make statements about "merica" when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Right, so Oregon and New Jersey aren't in America.

Got it, thanks.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:01 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I visited Atlantic City a few years ago. Had to get gas in NJ.
If it was the one right outside of AC on the AC Expressway, that one is particularly bad. That is the only gas station I've been to where they expected a tip.

Normally when I get gas in NJ, the attendant puts my gas cap on, hands me my card and walks away - never a suggestion that I should tip.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:06 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I have done a few experiments and the auto shutoff shuts off the pump even if you jam the cap in the handle. The way it works is independent of the handle position.
Usually happens when you try to fill too fast.
I have the same problem at certain stations with my F-150. Just have to slooooowwww dooooowwwwnnn...
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:10 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
If it was the one right outside of AC on the AC Expressway, that one is particularly bad. That is the only gas station I've been to where they expected a tip.

Normally when I get gas in NJ, the attendant puts my gas cap on, hands me my card and walks away - never a suggestion that I should tip.
That's the other thing. Handing someone your credit card and they walk away with it.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:12 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Pump nozzles used to have a flange on them you could flip down to keep the trigger depressed. It was removed for the safety reasons mentioned. Some people would then stick their gas cap in the handle to hold the trigger. Not advisable for the same safety reasons the hold down was eliminated.
Most pumps here have this, but you can't lock it on the max setting, only on about 3/4 flow and below. As soon as fuel level reaches the nozzle, the pump shuts off and won't restart until completely released and squeezed again.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:12 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Usually happens when you try to fill too fast.
I have the same problem at certain stations with my F-150. Just have to slooooowwww dooooowwwwnnn...
There was a recall on my 2008 Jeep. If you had to pump gas really slow, there was a pinched line? that needed to be fixed in the emissions canister setup.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:15 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I have done a few experiments and the auto shutoff shuts off the pump even if you jam the cap in the handle. The way it works is independent of the handle position.
Its triggered by a back-pressure sensor in the pump fuel line . Sometimes, they even get triggered by pumping at full speed before the tank level gets up.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:27 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Duffy Moon View Post
Oh right, there might be two types then.
Pretty sure I've seen (in film and TV) American pumps where the driver sticks the nozzle into the car, pulls the trigger and is able to walk away whilst it fills up.

I'm happy be corrected by any USAian posters if that's not the case.
Most fuel pump nozzles in the US have a mechanism that allows you to latch the lever open. The automatic shutoff when the tank is full keeps you from overfilling the tank (usually). I know that my state (Colorado) used to prohibit that mechanism on self-service pumps. Possibly some states still have similar regulations. The one in Colorado was repealed a long time ago.

One of the reasons stated for repealing the law prohibiting latch-open mechanisms was that some people apparently were improvising their own, often by wedging the gas cap into the handle, and that in some cases this was also defeating the auto shutoff.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:38 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I visited Atlantic City a few years ago. Had to get gas in NJ. Most ridiculous thing I ever saw. Long lines, lazy attendants, slow service, expected tips. There's nothing you can do but sit there and wait for the attendant to take his sweet time to get to your car.

Self service stations process 10X more customers an hour, I would bet.

Once Oregon stations see the much larger customer turnover, they will go self service, I'll bet.
I worked in Port Jervis a decade and a half ago and would have to enter NJ to get on the interstate to go home. Even with the tip for the attendant gas was still cheaper there than back around here. So I would always fill there. Only really ran into the lines in NJ when stopping on the Garden State Parkway or NJ turnpike.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:50 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Don't you always have to pay in advance in USA too? I remember doing that in California (I had to guess how much to ask for as I had no idea how much my rented Chrysler Neon's tank would hold "Ermmm...ten..errr...gallons? "). That was a self-pump station.
In cities, you pretty much universally have to pay first. In small towns well away from cities, some places still trust you to pay after you pump.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 11:58 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't really buy the "safety" explanation.
OK.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
California is a populous state, that allows self-service, and also allows for locking the pump open and walking away.

Drive-aways with the nozzle still attached to the car are apparently rare enough that they don't make the news, don't trigger legislation, and don't prompt station management to disable the feature. (Instead, gas stations seem to prefer investing in clean breakaway hoses.)

Whatever the safety issue, it seems to be pretty negligible. Certainly 48 states (and most of the rest of the western world) have figured out how to address it, without simply banning their citizens from doing something that evidence shows any reasonably competent adult can do.
As with most safety regulations it is at times the unreasonable and incompetent that can drive change. I'm just about to take another of our monthly online safety training classes. Why? Because people do dumb things, hurt themselves or others so continuous proactive (and quite repetitive) safety training is the result. As the site safety contact I'm often asked why this or that safety rule exists. Sometimes it is simply because someone got hurt not doing it that way. A couple of years ago I fell off a ten foot ladder fracturing my right heel. As a result we now require a spotter when working on a ladder over six feet. So I certainly don't even put myself above the unreasonable and incompetent fray.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:12 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't really buy the "safety" explanation.

California is a populous state, that allows self-service, and also allows for locking the pump open and walking away.

Drive-aways with the nozzle still attached to the car are apparently rare enough that they don't make the news, don't trigger legislation, and don't prompt station management to disable the feature. (Instead, gas stations seem to prefer investing in clean breakaway hoses.)

Whatever the safety issue, it seems to be pretty negligible. Certainly 48 states (and most of the rest of the western world) have figured out how to address it, without simply banning their citizens from doing something that evidence shows any reasonably competent adult can do.
I'd love to the the stats on those latches. What is the actual concern? A little gas gets spilled? How much is lost every year because the pump doesn't shut off? How many fires have their actually been as a result? My guess is not much and none.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:22 PM   #137
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For some frame of references deaths and injuries from gas station fires aren't exactly some sort of out of control epidemic.

There's 10,700 gas stations in the US. Even assuming an amazingly conservative estimate of an average of say... 12 "fuel pumpings" a day on average (and I can't imagine the real number is anything but way, way, way higher) that's a huge number of "occurrences" with a very low number of incidents.

Gas station fires cause about 20 million in damage, 50 injuries and 2 deaths on average a year. And the vast majority of those seem to be vehicle fires, not actual pump fires, although I can't find an exact stat on how many of those vehicle fires were actually vehicle involved in the actual process of fueling, how many game from hitting the pumps, and so forth although it does say that in 28% of fuel station fires "gasoline or other fuels" are the primary source of fuel and/or ignition for the fire, with "rubbish" and "electrical" making up most of the other.

I do wonder given that how many deaths, injuries, and damage can really be meaningfully linked even in the most indirect way to actually performing the act of pumping the fuel "wrongly."

The only "action" I see mentioned with any frequency anecdotally (so grain of salt) ever coming up as a factor in fuel fires is people panicking and removed the nozzle from the car at the first sign of flame, which while a somewhat understandably natural reaction is not the safest course of action and the danger of "static build up" caused by getting and out of the vehicle while refueling.

Cites:
http://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Researc...rvice-stations

http://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education...station-safety

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/au.../27STATIC.html
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:28 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'd love to the the stats on those latches. What is the actual concern? A little gas gets spilled? How much is lost every year because the pump doesn't shut off? How many fires have their actually been as a result? My guess is not much and none.
Back in the day it was a productivity tool so you could service more customers or just the one better and that's when twenty some odd gallon tanks weren't uncommon. While just having a couple of overflows without it I doubt I would ever use it again even if it did come back around here. Sometimes just one incident is too much.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:30 PM   #139
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And to put this in even greater reference a single outbreak of botulism from a gas station's "cheese pump" for its nachos killed one and hospitalized nine in California so... if you're okay with your citizenry eating gas station food but not pumping their own gas... you can't argue that "risk management" is the primary concern.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:31 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Most fuel pump nozzles in the US have a mechanism that allows you to latch the lever open. The automatic shutoff when the tank is full keeps you from overfilling the tank (usually). I know that my state (Colorado) used to prohibit that mechanism on self-service pumps. Possibly some states still have similar regulations. The one in Colorado was repealed a long time ago.

One of the reasons stated for repealing the law prohibiting latch-open mechanisms was that some people apparently were improvising their own, often by wedging the gas cap into the handle, and that in some cases this was also defeating the auto shutoff.
See the cap idea makes no sense to me.

I know that the pump shuts off even if I am holding the thing wide open with my hand. I then have to fully release the handle to get it to reset so I can try to pump more fuel.

So wedging the cap in there won't change a thing. The pump will shut off, and you will have to remove the cap to reset it.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:34 PM   #141
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*Anecdotal*

"DO NOT TOP OFF" notices do seem to be more common now then they used to be. Maybe idiots trying to squeeze a few extra ounces into their tanks is getting more common for.... some reason.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:39 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
See the cap idea makes no sense to me.

I know that the pump shuts off even if I am holding the thing wide open with my hand. I then have to fully release the handle to get it to reset so I can try to pump more fuel.

So wedging the cap in there won't change a thing. The pump will shut off, and you will have to remove the cap to reset it.
Yeah the part about it defeating the auto shut off doesn't seem to make sense. However people improvising their own latch defeats the purpose of not having the latch.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:43 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
*Anecdotal*

"DO NOT TOP OFF" notices do seem to be more common now then they used to be. Maybe idiots trying to squeeze a few extra ounces into their tanks is getting more common for.... some reason.
Topping off multiple times can put raw fuel into the emissions lines/canister/vapor system.

I think most mfgs now tell you not to top off the tank.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 12:43 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
*Anecdotal*

"DO NOT TOP OFF" notices do seem to be more common now then they used to be. Maybe idiots trying to squeeze a few extra ounces into their tanks is getting more common for.... some reason.
With the newer car designs topping off can saturate the Evap carbon canister. My friend was lucky when his caught fire. It happened literally right in front of the local firehouse. So major damage was limited to basically just the carbon canister.

ETA:
Evap ninja'd by LTC8K6
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:26 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
And to put this in even greater reference a single outbreak of botulism from a gas station's "cheese pump" for its nachos killed one and hospitalized nine in California so... if you're okay with your citizenry eating gas station food but not pumping their own gas... you can't argue that "risk management" is the primary concern.
That is awesome.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:46 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Topping off multiple times can put raw fuel into the emissions lines/canister/vapor system.

I think most mfgs now tell you not to top off the tank.
Overfilled tanks, especially diesel vehicles, and multiplied by a factor of ten if it's someone who's left their fuel cap behind and replaced it with a universal fit temporary one that has become permanent, are a major hazard for motorcyclists. It's not called diesel oil for nothing and it tends to slosh out worst in the corners.

There was someone back in the days that I was commuting by bike who would fill up every other Monday morning and leave a trail that I could follow for at least three miles of my commute. It made some wet mornings in particular rather more... Interesting.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 01:54 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
See the cap idea makes no sense to me.

I know that the pump shuts off even if I am holding the thing wide open with my hand. I then have to fully release the handle to get it to reset so I can try to pump more fuel.

So wedging the cap in there won't change a thing. The pump will shut off, and you will have to remove the cap to reset it.
My ex-brother-in-law used to do it. This was in the days before you could pay at the pump. He'd wedge the filler cap in to keep the pump flowing while he went and joined the queue to pay in the kiosk. It saved him a couple of minutes (with the risk that the cut-off might not work, of course).
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:01 PM   #148
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I drove a 1964 Chevy Pickup before that had the gas filler right by the driver's door ... If you pulled up close to the pumps, you could fill up without getting out of the truck
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:06 PM   #149
Ron Swanson
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
You know you're really out in the boonies when you find a gas station that trusts you to pay after you pump your gas.
When I was a kid my Dad would fill up on gas, and just shout the amount he got to Earl and he'd mark it down in book ... then just pay once a week or so.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:09 PM   #150
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I don't know of any pumps that have the old "hold open" triggers (for self serve pumps) on them here in Ontario, Canada (they are against the law) ... and almost all the pumps have a "pay at the pump" option for credit, debit and gift cards.

Last edited by Ron Swanson; 2nd January 2018 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:12 PM   #151
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Many stations here you have "Full Serve" and "Self Serve" lanes at the gas pumps ... it's 3 or 4 cents a Litre more costly at the "Full Serve" ... if you fill up they'll clean the window without asking.

The "Full Serve" pump lanes are closed off hours

I have a Handi-Cap ticket so I can get "Full Serve" at "Self Serve" prices.

Last edited by Ron Swanson; 2nd January 2018 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:35 PM   #152
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No self-service here in Greece, though I haven't bought gas in major cities where it might exist. The pumps have a € setting, and I just ask for €50 for most top-ups.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 02:41 PM   #153
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This bugs me every time I go home to visit, waiting for an attendant to pump my gas. When I top off my rental at the airport I have to add extra time because the two gas stations are always busy and there are never enough attendants.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:18 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's the other thing. Handing someone your credit card and they walk away with it.
Like at a restaurant?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:19 PM   #155
ahhell
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like at a restaurant?
Which is until recently anyway where most credit card fraud originates.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:21 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
OK.



As with most safety regulations it is at times the unreasonable and incompetent that can drive change. I'm just about to take another of our monthly online safety training classes. Why? Because people do dumb things, hurt themselves or others so continuous proactive (and quite repetitive) safety training is the result. As the site safety contact I'm often asked why this or that safety rule exists. Sometimes it is simply because someone got hurt not doing it that way. A couple of years ago I fell off a ten foot ladder fracturing my right heel. As a result we now require a spotter when working on a ladder over six feet. So I certainly don't even put myself above the unreasonable and incompetent fray.
And yet the millions of Californians who pump their own gas every day, and even walk away while it's happening, haven't produced enough unreasonable incompetence to drive the kind of safety changes being suggested here. That suggests to me that there is not a serious safety gap in California. Or any of the other 47 states.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 03:23 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Back in the day it was a productivity tool so you could service more customers or just the one better and that's when twenty some odd gallon tanks weren't uncommon. While just having a couple of overflows without it I doubt I would ever use it again even if it did come back around here. Sometimes just one incident is too much.
And sometimes just one incident isn't nearly enough. It's clear that most states don't see a serious safety problem that needs solving here.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:06 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And yet the millions of Californians who pump their own gas every day, and even walk away while it's happening, haven't produced enough unreasonable incompetence to drive the kind of safety changes being suggested here. That suggests to me that there is not a serious safety gap in California. Or any of the other 47 states.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And sometimes just one incident isn't nearly enough. It's clear that most states don't see a serious safety problem that needs solving here.
Yes, states, federal governments and even individual stations can make their own safety policies, provided the lower ones don't violate the upper ones.

Heck, they can even reverse them. CA had eliminated the clips but has allowed them again. Most likely due to the handle design changes noted in the video posted up thread. As far as I know Canada still doesn't permit them on self service pumps. Sorry, I'm still not exactly sure just what it is you are trying to argue.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:38 PM   #159
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It is my understanding that self-serve gas stations are in fact extraordinarily popular places for credit card fraud. Apparently once a thief has stolen a credit card the first thing they do is use it for a small purchase of gas at a self-serve. This allows them to make a purchase without a face-to-face interaction with a clerk, and if the card is accepted they know that the theft has yet to be reported, so they can use it for a major purchase in a real store, or sell it to a second party. If the card purchase is denied the card has been blocked, but they can just hop in their car and leave- no confrontation with a sales clerk or store security.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:48 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Quote:
"I've lived in this state all my life and I REFUSE to pump my own gas. I had to do it once in California while visiting my brother and almost died doing it. This a service only qualified people should perform. I will literally park at the pump and wait until someone pumps my gas. I can't even," -Mike Perrone

Must be a Poe. Good work!

(The last bit gives the game away: "I will literally park at the pump and wait until someone pumps my gas. I can't even," also the bit about having almost died. I've pumped my own gas countless times and never had a near-death experience.)
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