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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:48 PM   #161
Giordano
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And yet the millions of Californians who pump their own gas every day, and even walk away while it's happening, haven't produced enough unreasonable incompetence to drive the kind of safety changes being suggested here. That suggests to me that there is not a serious safety gap in California. Or any of the other 47 states.
Yes- somehow common sense (not so common?) plus technology appear to make self-serve largely explosion/fire free. But a perusal of youtube will show that spectacular results are possible in the very rare cases where the depth of the customer's stupidity overcomes the technology. Not an argument against self-serve- just an observation.

BTW- I refuse to use self-check stands at supermarkets- I believe it undermines jobs, uses me as a temporary unpaid employee to generate a higher profit for the supermarket, and is usually a real pain in the rear ("Item did not register correctly. Please remove and place back on weighing pan... Please re-swipe credit card. Please press the green button again before re-swiping your card...")
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:50 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Yes, states, federal governments and even individual stations can make their own safety policies, provided the lower ones don't violate the upper ones.

Heck, they can even reverse them. CA had eliminated the clips but has allowed them again. Most likely due to the handle design changes noted in the video posted up thread. As far as I know Canada still doesn't permit them on self service pumps. Sorry, I'm still not exactly sure just what it is you are trying to argue.
I'm not trying to argue anything. I'm just saying is that based on the current situation, I don't see much of a safety concern in letting people pump their own gas, and even latching the lever and walking away.

I think somebody upthread said something like, that's a safety risk. Doesn't seem like it's such a big risk to me.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:01 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not trying to argue anything. I'm just saying is that based on the current situation, I don't see much of a safety concern in letting people pump their own gas, and even latching the lever and walking away.

I think somebody upthread said something like, that's a safety risk. Doesn't seem like it's such a big risk to me.
Again it is OK that it doesn't seem like it's such a big risk to you. Evidently it did to some responsible for administrating such things and apparently even drove some design changes in the handle. I haven't been debating or even asserting the validity of such determinations but simply noting that they happened.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:02 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not trying to argue anything. I'm just saying is that based on the current situation, I don't see much of a safety concern in letting people pump their own gas, and even latching the lever and walking away.

I think somebody upthread said something like, that's a safety risk. Doesn't seem like it's such a big risk to me.
It's a safety risk the same way that driving is a safety risk. There's some risks that are pretty trivial.

Honestly, it feels like the leftovers of an ancient job protection law. I'm old enough to remember when self-serve gas stations first appeared in Vancouver, and the same discussion took place, and the underlying motivation was to protect these entry level low skilled jobs. Gas jockey was in the same category as busboy and dishwasher, car washer, and that whole stack of tasks that can be done by any 12 year old.

BTW: I have only seen a latched handle spew gas a few times in my life, and every time, it has been the paid attendant at a full serve station. Filling 12 cars at once, they lose track.
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Last edited by blutoski; 2nd January 2018 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:12 PM   #165
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
BTW- I refuse to use self-check stands at supermarkets- I believe it undermines jobs,
Everything you do undermines jobs, or did at some point. Why do you go to the supermarket at all, instead of hiring a grocery delivery service?

Why do you drive your own car, or take public transportation, instead of calling a taxi or a rideshare?

Why do you travel on commercial airlines, instead of chartering a private flight?

These are serious questions. I believe they have serious and thought-provoking answers. We'll find out if I'm right when you answer them.

Quote:
uses me as a temporary unpaid employee to generate a higher profit for the supermarket,
I bet you pump your own gas though, instead of paying extra for "full service."

And of course you're not "unpaid" at all in these scenarios. You're getting compensated in goods and services. The specifics of the business arrangement naturally require some division of labor between you and the seller, and that dividing line is going to shift around a bit over time. It's not a nefarious plot to cheat you out of your hard-earned money. It's a value proposition the seller hopes will satisfy your requirements for the transaction.

Quote:
and is usually a real pain in the rear ("Item did not register correctly. Please remove and place back on weighing pan... Please re-swipe credit card. Please press the green button again before re-swiping your card...")
I bet as soon as self-scanning solutions become just a little bit easer and more reliable to use, your other rationales will vanish (just like they're already missing from the vast majority of other efficiencies you take for granted in your business transactions), and you'll think no more of it than of pumping your own gas--undermining jobs be damned.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:21 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
When I was a kid my Dad would fill up on gas, and just shout the amount he got to Earl and he'd mark it down in book ... then just pay once a week or so.
In late '80s, I worked at a convenience store. We would let folks pump during the day, but required pre-pay after dark.

I only remember one person driving off without paying, and he came back about 15 minutes later and apologized saying he forgot.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:23 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post

BTW- I refuse to use self-check stands at supermarkets- I believe it undermines jobs, uses me as a temporary unpaid employee to generate a higher profit for the supermarket, and is usually a real pain in the rear ("Item did not register correctly. Please remove and place back on weighing pan... Please re-swipe credit card. Please press the green button again before re-swiping your card...")
Verging off topic, but I don't take this view. I find the self-checking quicker, so I do it. Technology has been and will continue to take jobs away. Societies need to find efficient ways of producing goods and services, and most manage it without destroying employment. Despite introduction of job shedding technology and manufacturing taking a big hit in Australia in recent decades (it seems to have stabilised now) we have what is considered full employment, and we need workers in some areas.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:28 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And of course you're not "unpaid" at all in these scenarios. You're getting compensated in goods and services. The specifics of the business arrangement naturally require some division of labor between you and the seller, and that dividing line is going to shift around a bit over time. It's not a nefarious plot to cheat you out of your hard-earned money. It's a value proposition the seller hopes will satisfy your requirements for the transaction.
It's also usually faster, shorter lines. Time being money, it could be argued to be a discount.

But it's not for everybody, and I'm worried it will end up being a stupidity tax, like my parents' old credit union that charged $1 to visit an actual branch and get a human teller. The sad truth is that the're just not technical people and ATMs and stuff like that utterly baffle them. My dad bought dinner the other night, and verbally told the waitress his PIN - out loud, in the middle of the restaurant - so she could key it in for him.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:48 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like at a restaurant?
I can't remember one incidence in the last few years (like maybe 6 or 8 years) where a store clerk or bartender or waitress so much as touched my credit card ... they just hand you the machine.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:58 PM   #170
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Amazing. Five pages of discussion by people who, unlike me, have never pumped their own gazoline. (I did it once).

Pumping gaz.

https://xxxxantiques.com.au/content/...40462-4437.jpg

Operate the lever to pump the fuel into the upper glass chamber.
When the amount required is transferred, insert hose nozzle in car tank and open valve.
Replace hose, close petrol cap, Simples


I'll bet you have always used electrics to pump your gas for you. lazy
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:01 PM   #171
blutoski
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Which is until recently anyway where most credit card fraud originates.
The one time I've had a card hooched, it's was at a Shell. And not even for gas - I bought a coke. The POS machine was not reading my card, so the cashier said, "Let me try, this one is fussy," and she dropped it onto a shelf a few inches below the counter, swiped a couple of times, and it worked the second time.

What I know now is that the first swipe was in a dedicated card reader, the second one was the POS machine.

Lesson learned: never give them your card.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:46 PM   #172
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I can see educationality is required. I shall oblige:

How To Pump Gases For Your Vehicoules:

1. Find a gas stationment.
2. Drive up quite close to the pumpery mechanism.
3. Disembark yourself, and open the gas fuel chamber tube entrance tunnel flap door.
4. Unfurl the pumpery mechanism hose from its crevasse.
5. Slide your credit card into the machine, it will return it when complete.
6. Trap the hose under your chin and pull the triggering device. This will dispense liquid which is for some reason called a gas although it is clearly liquid.
7. Catch this liquid in your cupped hands and push it into your motorcoach.
8. If you wish to have extra for later just put some into the back seat also, you can have as many gas as you like to pay for, even if your gasment tank is capacitated.
9. When you are finish, tie the hose into a secure knot to prevent more gases from falling out.
10. Enclose your automobilitator's enfuelation portal, re-embark, and drive off merrily on your way!
11. Return to retrieve your credit card.

Please write that out on a 3x5 card and mail it to Oregon, wherever or whatever that is.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:52 PM   #173
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I can't remember one incidence in the last few years (like maybe 6 or 8 years) where a store clerk or bartender or waitress so much as touched my credit card ... they just hand you the machine.
... And?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:39 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
No the law only "allows" gas stations to allow customers to pump their own gas, not require it. Many service stations mentioned in other article have stated they will retain their full service status at least for a time. More than a few quotes from station owners stated that they didn't have payment systems set up at the pumps themselves. And the American with Disabilities Act still requires gas stations to provide assistance to disabled customers.
That's weird. I live in New Jersey, and all the pumps I've seen are self service pumps. They even have a keypad for PINs, although, for obvious reasons, the attendants run the cards as credit rather than debit.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 12:22 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's the other thing. Handing someone your credit card and they walk away with it.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like at a restaurant?
Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I can't remember one incidence in the last few years (like maybe 6 or 8 years) where a store clerk or bartender or waitress so much as touched my credit card ... they just hand you the machine.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
... And?
So handing someone your card and letting them walk away with it is not "like at a restaurant".
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Old 3rd January 2018, 12:43 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
So handing someone your card and letting them walk away with it is not "like at a restaurant".
As I mentioned upthread, there's only full service here and I've never had a jockey walk off with my card. They hand you the machine.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 12:54 AM   #177
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Gotta give poor people jobs, any job, no matter how superfluous it is.

Wallmart store greeters, waitresses, road crossing guards...

Anything to keep them off welfare and unemployment.

They should definitely make laws protecting these invaluable professions from being replaced by automatization and effectiviezation.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 01:17 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Like at a restaurant?
Here they bring a card machine to the table
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:04 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
On some Vauxhall/Opels you need to unlock twice on the keyfob to open the fuel cover. I had to show a youngster at the pump next to me once. I would have felt smugger about it if someone hadn't had to show me a week before when I picked mine up! (To be fair the last car I had owned was ten years before and only got remote locking when I had an after market alarm fitted).

And modern tech isn't even needed to confuse the untutored.

We have a '90 Miata. Everything was designed to be streamlined and nearly featureless on the outside (think recessed, roll-up headlights). The gas fill cover has no lock on the outside of the car. The release for the gas fill cover is a tiny black lever cleverly placed on the inside rear of the equally small, equally black center console storage box.

Since the console box itself is so small, putting nearly anything in it (like a pair of sunglasses, or maybe a pack of cigarettes, you get the idea) can easily obscure the lever.

If you don't know what you are looking for you could spend hours searching the car dash and interior trying to find some way to open the damned gas cover.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:22 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
<snip>

BTW- I refuse to use self-check stands at supermarkets- I believe it undermines jobs, uses me as a temporary unpaid employee to generate a higher profit for the supermarket, and is usually a real pain in the rear ("Item did not register correctly. Please remove and place back on weighing pan... Please re-swipe credit card. Please press the green button again before re-swiping your card...")

I don't use some of them. It depends on the store, the crowds, and how many things I am buying.

By way of example, all the Harris Teeter supermarkets around here keep a clerk on duty full-time at the self check-out lines. Riding herd on 4, or 6, sometimes maybe 8 stations. So if something goes wrong they will come and straighten it out for you. Often they can do it from their control register. They are usually very cheerful and eager to help.

If the regular lines are full of people with full carts and I'm only buying a few things I quite welcome the option.

If the regular checkout lines are short, or if I have a lot of stuff to ring up then I don't bother with them.

Other stores are not always as successful at their implementations.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:27 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
Amazing. Five pages of discussion by people who, unlike me, have never pumped their own gazoline. (I did it once).

Pumping gaz.

https://xxxxantiques.com.au/content/...40462-4437.jpg

Operate the lever to pump the fuel into the upper glass chamber.
When the amount required is transferred, insert hose nozzle in car tank and open valve.
Replace hose, close petrol cap, Simples


I'll bet you have always used electrics to pump your gas for you. lazy

There was one ancient general store well outside of town when I was growing up in WV that actually still used those.

They also didn't take credit cards.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 02:46 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
<snip>

A couple of years ago I fell off a ten foot ladder fracturing my right heel. As a result we now require a spotter when working on a ladder over six feet. So I certainly don't even put myself above the unreasonable and incompetent fray.

Good for them. That a step up (pun unintended) from OSHA requirements, which are onerous enough. And for good reason.

Ladders (stepladders specifically) are among the most dangerous pieces of equipment on most jobsites, and fall hazards are one of the top two causes of injury and death.

One of the few fatalities I dealt with on any jobsite I was working at involved a six foot fall from a stepladder set up on a flat concrete floor, with no surrounding equipment or other hazards.

People would be way too casual about ladder use, and gradually the safety regs have made it all but impossible to use them legally and accomplish any useful work, which is as it should be. At six feet up it is required to maintain at least three points of contact while working on the ladder. How much can you really do if you only have one hand available to actually work with? That reg was ignored for quite a while, but once accidents prompted more vigorous enforcement it took a toll on ladder use.

At ten feet a fall protection harness is required. And you need to be able to get up to an anchor point for the fall protection line.

Toward the end of my days in the field stepladders were gradually being phased out as normal work access devices even for getting to relatively low work areas, being replaced with things like Bakerô scaffolds for small work, or other larger scaffolds for bigger, more involved tasks.

It was a good thing. Ladders should be only be used for getting from one elevation to another. Not as work platforms.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 03:43 AM   #183
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I'd be interested to see how long it took a member of staff at a full service station to check the oil in my car.

1. Work out where the engine is.
2. Open the tailgate
3. Empty all the accumulated crap from the luggage space
4. Lift the floor panel
5. Check oil

then do the same in reverse.

I always understood that you should only check the oil once the engine had cooled down anyway, so the whole process seems flawed.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:11 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Gas jockey was in the same category as busboy and dishwasher, car washer, and that whole stack of tasks that can be done by any 12 year old.
Have you ever done any of these jobs?
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:28 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I can't remember one incidence in the last few years (like maybe 6 or 8 years) where a store clerk or bartender or waitress so much as touched my credit card ... they just hand you the machine.
That reduces your own fraud risk but <warning: thread drift> just before Christmas in the shop where my son works they had an audacious thief who bought a phone using one staff member's handheld POS machine and later came back and bought another from the same staff member. He gave him some patter about the machine having trouble reading his card or having made a mistake but in reality he knew exactly how to use the machine and in a few keystrokes he had refunded his card for the first purchase. He was long gone before anyone noticed the anomalous refund.

He'd have got clean away had he not got greedy and come back a third time while the cops were taking a statement about the initial theft.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 04:36 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
We have a '90 Miata. [...] If you don't know what you are looking for you could spend hours searching the car dash and interior trying to find some way to open the damned gas cover.
Or, as I recently learned* on my new-to-me '94, you can open the trunk and grope around underneath the cap for a little trigger on the end of the release cable. In my case to give it a wiggle as it kept jamming open.

*Okay, re-learned. Something in the back of my mind tells me I used to know this from my first one 20+ years ago.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 05:07 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
..........I'll bet you have always used electrics to pump your gas for you. lazy[/spoiler]
Petrol.

No. In the length of Africa I doubt we encountered more than two or 3 electrical petrol pumps. Generally they were cranked or levered. You rocked a lever backwards and forwards pumping fuel up to a clear glass header until it reached the required level, and from there it was then released down into the vehicle tank. This could be serious work, as the mechanisms required more effort than seemed necessary, and large crowds of kids would gather to watch m'zungus sweating in the sun. Finding a petrol station with fuel, checking its cleanliness, (it was usually mixed with a little kerosene, but also usually filthy, and with water in it), negotiating a price, pumping the fuel, and paying ("what do you mean, you don't take your own local currency?"), and dealing with security, could sometimes take half a day, particularly north of the equator.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 06:12 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Supermarket Petrol Stations would be an even bigger shock in the USA. The pumps are an't only self service, you pay by card at the pump in advance. No staff at all.
Some are even contactless too.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 06:33 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
"Fake news"; They made up those quotes and the people they claimed to get them from. There's no way they found any actual people who seriously want this absurd "service" of having some creepy character emerge from hiding and start hanging out right next to your vehicle demanding money for the "service" of getting in your way while you're trying to get stuff done.

Why don't other countries have those, and why would they be shocking to a foreign visitor to the USA, instead of just slightly unexpected?

Weird idea. I understand that tire technology has vastly improved over the years so maybe they once leaked many times faster than they do now, but there's no way those other things would need to be done so amazingly often. It sounds like they were just trying to give the impression of providing a service to people who didn't realize how pointless it was without actually needing to do any serving. It reminds me of that thing I've heard of but never seen in real life about poor/unemployed/homeless people hanging out at major intersections to suddenly appear in front of stopped cars and wipe their windshields and then ask for payment for doing so.
It's happened to me, once, in Bradford, UK. Some young Polack girl jumped out with a bucket and squidgy. I was so shocked I let her clean my windscreen. Cost me a quid.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 06:35 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
And modern tech isn't even needed to confuse the untutored.

We have a '90 Miata. Everything was designed to be streamlined and nearly featureless on the outside (think recessed, roll-up headlights). The gas fill cover has no lock on the outside of the car. The release for the gas fill cover is a tiny black lever cleverly placed on the inside rear of the equally small, equally black center console storage box.

Since the console box itself is so small, putting nearly anything in it (like a pair of sunglasses, or maybe a pack of cigarettes, you get the idea) can easily obscure the lever.

If you don't know what you are looking for you could spend hours searching the car dash and interior trying to find some way to open the damned gas cover.
I bought an 89 MX5 (same car, UK/NZ etc market) second hand. As I was about to drive away the seller asked if I knew where the petrol release was.

I gave a man look like 'how hard can it be?'

She insisted on showing me - thank goodness. I would never have looked there.

Lovely car though, the only one I have ever actually regretted selling. And then only because I moved countries.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 06:59 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Have you ever done any of these jobs?
I have.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 07:32 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Supermarket Petrol Stations would be an even bigger shock in the USA. The pumps are an't only self service, you pay by card at the pump in advance. No staff at all.
To be clear, this is the vast majority of stations in the US too, its only a few states were they mandate the halfassed-service stations. Most stations will have an attendant, mostly because they also sell stuff but not usually to deal with selling gas/petrol.

Where I worked the customers I dealt with were buy stuff in addition to gas, as I noted, I did business through a window. Its surprising how often folks will give you there PIN and how often its 1111, 1234, or "my birthday".

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Old 3rd January 2018, 08:15 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I have.
Congratulations, but I'm not entirely sure that's relevant.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 08:18 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Congratulations, but I'm not entirely sure that's relevant.
I'm not sure either. I was hoping that getting an answer would prompt you to develop your argument to the point where its relevance became apparent.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 08:21 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure either. I was hoping that getting an answer would prompt you to develop your argument to the point where its relevance became apparent.
I find that people who haven't done a job often think it's much, much easier to do the job well than it actually is.

Epitomised by the expression "How hard can it be?", academically investigated by Messrs Dunning & Kruger.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 08:33 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The USA is already familiar with such arrangements. Don't confuse local idiosyncrasies for national conventions.
Particularly when the picture you post shows the currency used at the pump with the cutting edge tech to be US dollars.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 08:53 AM   #197
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by the way, NOBODY I know is freaking out.

Not even a little bit.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 08:55 AM   #198
theprestige
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I find that people who haven't done a job often think it's much, much easier to do the job well than it actually is.

Epitomised by the expression "How hard can it be?", academically investigated by Messrs Dunning & Kruger.
Heh. Nowadays I just assume that any appeal to Dunning-Kruger is an example of Dunning-Kruger.

Also, I think you may be underestimating the basic competence of 12 year olds, properly trained.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 09:08 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. Nowadays I just assume that any appeal to Dunning-Kruger is an example of Dunning-Kruger.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, could you expand? Seems specific enough to cast doubt upon my use of the term without actually saying anything productive at all.


Quote:
Also, I think you may be underestimating the basic competence of 12 year olds, properly trained.
Not really, I've met some extremely competent 12 year olds. I've also met plenty of grown adults who think that low paying jobs they've never done are uniformly easy and stress free.
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Old 3rd January 2018, 09:14 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. Nowadays I just assume that any appeal to Dunning-Kruger is an example of Dunning-Kruger.
Mind you, that's exactly what somebody with Dunning-Kruger would think.

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