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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:34 AM   #81
cullennz
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Interesting that you quote a study that is over 20 years old and that once again you take a quote from the research part of the paper while totally ignoring the researcher's conclusions in the discussion section.



So once again, the differences were found to be minimal with both Boys and Girls showing high levels of ability. Much of the differences between the two groups was their own perception of their abilities with the boys considering themselves worst than they really were. The only part that the Girls really statistically better the boys was in Oratory.
Well we may disagree, but at least you proved girls and boys don't think the same
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:46 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well we may disagree, but at least you proved girls and boys don't think the same
It hasn't actually proven that at all. Individuals are not bound by group generalities. Individual girls can think far more like a boy then the rest of their group, and individual boys can think far more like a girl than others in their group.

We also don't know how much is nature and how much is nurture.

How having said that, there are part of the brain that are generally more developed in Females, and others that are generally more developed in Males, but it is extremely rare to find all of the "Female" areas developed in a female, and all of the "Male" areas developed in a male. Woman can and do have a number of the "Male" areas developed, and men can have just as many of the "Female" areas developed as they have the "Male" areas. Now yes, most men will have more "Males" areas developed, and most females will have more "Female" areas developed, but that isn't a hard and fast rule either.

The fact is that gender and the individuals that fit into that gender are not all able to be stereotyped and boxed up, they range right across the spectrum, which means that there are some woman just as capable of being rugby mad boofheads as males are, and contrariwise, there are those men that enjoy Opera and Broadway without being interested in boys too.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:48 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Did you actually read the page on that quilt book

Please tell me you are joking

Its chicks talking about growing up
Wow.
I've sure learned more about cullnnz in this thread, and his attitude to women, than about the state of education in NZ.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:49 AM   #84
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You missed a bit from your quote on the conclusions

Well a few bits

But the last sentence cracked me up

Apparently it's alright as all boys should be happy losing


Quote:
The NEMP results could add to the picture of the negative performance of boys within the

New Zealand education system. It would be easy at this point to paint a bleak picture of

future prospects for our boys as there are differences in the achievement levels of boys and

girls in their reading. However, this does not automatically mean that boys are failing in

reading - coming second does not necessarily mean losing.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:50 AM   #85
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When I was young (<10) I read all the Willard Price 'Adventure' books, fantastic stories for kids growing up. I also read Andrew Lang's Fairy stories collections, few of which would these days be deemed suitable for children (I am haunted by 'The Dog and the Sparrow' all these decades later). Even 100 years ago, Lang bemoaned the direction children's stories were taking

Originally Posted by Lang
But the three hundred and sixty-five authors who try to write new fairy tales are very tiresome. They always begin with a little boy or girl who goes out and meets the fairies of polyanthuses and gardenias and apple blossoms: "Flowers and fruits, and other winged things". These fairies try to be funny, and fail; or they try to preach, and succeed. Real fairies never preach or talk slang. At the end, the little boy or girl wakes up and finds that he has been dreaming.

Such are the new fairy stories. May we be preserved from all the sort of them!
I doubt he would believe the sanitised garbage we force upon our younger generation today.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 04:57 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Um yeah

Ladies and gentlemen

I give you a pants book
Doesn't it rather depend on what the stories are?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:00 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You missed a bit from your quote on the conclusions

Well a few bits

But the last sentence cracked me up

Apparently it's alright as all boys should be happy losing
Yeah, speaking of missing bits, why did you miss out this part that followed on immediately after?

Quote:
Boys’ results show a high success rate in their reading even though these are not as high as those of the girls. A danger of highlighting the differences in achievement of boys and girls can be that this difference is labelled as boys failing in reading. We, as educators of these young readers, need to ensure that this label does not become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
This showed that despite being behind, at the time they were still succeeding in hitting the highest levels of reading. They are pointing out that the boys as a group were not actually failing at reading at the time, but rather were very good at it, just slightly behind the girls.

The issue today is not that the boys are failing, but that since the time of these studies, all of the students are doing worse, both girls and boys. The Boys aren't lagging any worse than they ever have been, but rather white students levels of literacy has fallen for all genders meaning that both girls' and boys' literacy levels have been suffering badly recently, dropping us down the International Scale dramatically. This isn't a gender thing, it's a cellphones, and computers among other issues things.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:11 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It's about women bonding over a quilt by talking about their lives when their husbands went to war

In other words it's pants
Unlike you, I presume, I've now Kindled and read the book. It's a novelette, so it's pretty fast reading:

The first-person narrator is a boy in Chicago whose father is a soldier and whose mother works at an ammunitions factory. She brings home a lot of men, and for this reason he is sent to live with his grandmother at a farm in the north.
Most of the men are at war so the whole community is run by women who take care of everything, from farming to midwifing.
Being unfamiliar with the countryside, at first he's scared of the farm animals, but he soon gets used to it.
The boy and his grandmother are staying with a pregnant woman, and towards the end of the book (68% into it) she goes into labour and several of the women from neighboring farms turn up to help her, one of them bringing the quilt consisting of little squares of cloth, each of them in remembrance of somebody in their community, men as well as women, who has passed away. So each piece of the quilt represents the story of a dead person in this close-knit community of descendants of Norwegians, and the women tell the boy a few of these stories, of men as well as of women.
The young woman has her baby, and a week later she is informed that her husband has died in the war. When she weeps and says, "What will I do, what will I dowhatwillIdowhatwillIdo," the narrator's grandmother shakes her and says:
Quote:
You will do what we always do because we are women. You will raise your son because that I what we do. We are the strong ones, we have always been the strong ones. Men are weak and go off and fight or fish or work and do not come back, but we are women and we are strong because we go on. We always go on. (...) We go on and on when the men are gone. We keep them in the quilt, and go on and on because in the end, when it is done, we are the only ones. We are the strong ones. Now pick up your baby and feed hm and then clean the buckets because it is nearly chores time and we must work."
The boy worries that his mother might receive the same message about his father, but his grandmother calms him down and tells him not to worry. The end!

- so I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't like the book, and it's fairly obvious why you choose to completely ignore the other book by Gary Paulsen that I mentioned. They both seem to be highly recommended not only by female or effeminate librarians and school teachers but also by the vast majority of readers at Amazon.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Originally Posted by from book
"You will do what we always do because we are women. You will raise your son because that I what we do. We are the strong ones, we have always been the strong ones. Men are weak and go off and fight or fish or work and do not come back, but we are women and we are strong because we go on."
Yeah, I can see why this sorry tale is required reading. Heaven forbid that boys are introduced to the excitement of reading espousing the spirit of adventure, instead they must be indoctrinated at the earliest opportunity by feminist, anti-male propaganda.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:41 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yeah, I can see why this sorry tale is required reading. Heaven forbid that boys are introduced to the excitement of reading espousing the spirit of adventure, instead they must be indoctrinated at the earliest opportunity by feminist, anti-male propaganda.
Wow, you managed to write a post that is 100% incorrect, do you also write speeches for Trump?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:46 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Wow, you managed to write a post that is 100% incorrect, do you also write speeches for Trump?
Your incisive take-down of my post convinced me I'm 100% wrong. I stand corrected.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 05:52 AM   #92
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I think that I've also found the sunflower book:

Quote:
A little boy borrows his sister's yellow dress, puts yellow bows in his long blonde hair and plants sunflower seeds in a big circle. He cares for them, ties pink ribbons around their stems and watches them grow into a round wall of stems with golden flowers at the top. After playing in the "sunflower house" in his "sunflower dress" all summer, he, his sister and her friends collect the seeds from the dying plants to sow for next summer's flowers. Rhymed couplets written in first person express the boy's determination, surprise, and delight as he weaves his own play into the sunflowers' cycle from seed to seed. The watercolor-and-colored pencil artwork shows a variety of perspectives, from cross sections of the seed sprouting underground to moonlit scenes of children sleeping out in the sunflower house. Primary and preschool teachers will find this a colorful, child-appealing addition to units on plants and gender.
































No, not really. I had to make a couple of changes in the text to make it live up to cullennz's worst expectations!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:00 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yeah, I can see why this sorry tale is required reading. Heaven forbid that boys are introduced to the excitement of reading espousing the spirit of adventure, instead they must be indoctrinated at the earliest opportunity by feminist, anti-male propaganda.

Exactly how I thought you would react!
There's actually nothing "anti-male" about the book at all.
And you also manage to completely ignore the other book by the same author that I now mention and link to for the third time.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:12 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Exactly how I thought you would react!
There's actually nothing "anti-male" about the book at all.
And you also manage to completely ignore the other book by the same author that I now mention and link to for the third time.
To be fair, quoting 'Men are weak and go off and fight or fish or work and do not come back, but we are women and we are strong because we go on.' is going to push some buttons.

Presumably that's not the tone of the entire book...

For what it's worth, I wouldn't want to read that book either - though I happily read all my sister's 'Mallory Towers' and 'Twins at Some Other Posh Boarding School' books. The hatchet one? Maybe.

I got into reading as a kid via (Marvel) comics and my wife and I always have books on the go. The kids are much less interested, despite our encouragement though two of them happily read Manga, so there's hope yet.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:16 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Maybe men don't seek that particular job as much as women, on average? Sort of the same way far fewer women than men clamor to be coal miners?

I know there are tons of exceptions, but most of the men I know have less interest in talking to children (especially ones who are not their own) all day than a lot of women seem to display. Women can also often be less intimidating to young children. I doubt that tendency has anything to do with some modern "men shouldn't be around kids!" conspiracy nonsense. I think it's just kind of the way (many) kids work.
I am fortunate there - little kids like me. Possibly because they know/sense that I like them. I have, according to their moms, been responsible for many first smiles at a stranger!!!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:20 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
Day of the Triffids was very popular among girls in my school. Or were the triffids aggresive conifers rather than flowering plants?
Well, they did hate salt!!!!!!!!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
For what it's worth, I wouldn't want to read that book either

Neither would I - if it weren't for this context. It's a children's book, and I would recommend it to children. See the Amazon readers' comments!

Quote:
- though I happily read all my sister's 'Mallory Towers' and 'Twins at Some Other Posh Boarding School' books. The hatchet one? Maybe.

For young adults. I don't know your age, but ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd January 2018, 06:41 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Your incisive take-down of my post convinced me I'm 100% wrong. I stand corrected.
Or perhaps you should just read the thread before spouting pure nonsense.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:39 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Exactly how I thought you would react!
There's actually nothing "anti-male" about the book at all.
Then perhaps you were unwise to select a blatantly anti-male section and post it as your evidence.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
And you also manage to completely ignore the other book by the same author that I now mention and link to for the third time.
Thanks, it was a real effort to 'deliberately ignore' something that you posted. I normally hang on your every word and feel compelled to address every single nuance of your input. Now that I'm deliberately taking notice of this sentence, what would you like me to say about it?
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:40 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Or perhaps you should just read the thread before spouting pure nonsense.
I'm sure that's what you did, but I prefer to not spout pure nonsense regardless of my previous reading.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:45 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I heard their periods attract bears.
That's why we need teachers to arm themselves.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:46 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Then perhaps you were unwise to select a blatantly anti-male section and post it as your evidence.
The author was relating what his grandmother told him when he was a boy, how does her opinion make it Anti-male? If you had bothered to actually read the thread you'd be fully aware of this.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:47 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm sure that's what you did, but I prefer to not spout pure nonsense regardless of my previous reading.
Well then in this thread you have failed amazingly well.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:48 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
That's why we need teachers to arm themselves.
But then we have to arm the bears too. You know, the right to arm bears.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 07:55 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Tanja View Post
Wow.
I've sure learned more about cullnnz in this thread, and his attitude to women, than about the state of education in NZ.
You should have seen his reaction to the news that the new Doctor was going to be played by a woman.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:03 AM   #106
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Man, looking through his bibliography, I actually read a lot of books by Paulsen when I was a kid. Most of them I don't remember the plot of (I mostly remember Hatchet and The River), but I recall having read them now that I look at the cover.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:06 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
The author was relating what his grandmother told him when he was a boy, how does her opinion make it Anti-male?
Let me tell you a little bit about fiction (and yes, semi-autobiographical accounts are classed as fiction). This is somewhat basic, the kind of stuff a junior school kid might learn in writing class, but apparently it needs spelling out to you. If the author has a message to convey, he or she will do it through the medium of his characters' interactions. A character's opinion, unless challenged in the narrative, forms a part of the message the author wishes to get across.

So if the story has a character who states, "Homosexuals are unnatural and dirty," and his opinion is not countered, or proved incorrect by events, or called into question by other failings of his broader personality traits, then it can be understood that the author wants to communicate a homophobic message. The same holds true for any statement, positive or negative. This concept is especially valid when writing for children, who have a much weaker societal and cultural grounding from which to interpret what they read and therefore require less of a push to be influenced.

HTH.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:11 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It hasn't actually proven that at all. Individuals are not bound by group generalities. Individual girls can think far more like a boy then the rest of their group, and individual boys can think far more like a girl than others in their group.

We also don't know how much is nature and how much is nurture.

How having said that, there are part of the brain that are generally more developed in Females, and others that are generally more developed in Males, but it is extremely rare to find all of the "Female" areas developed in a female, and all of the "Male" areas developed in a male. Woman can and do have a number of the "Male" areas developed, and men can have just as many of the "Female" areas developed as they have the "Male" areas. Now yes, most men will have more "Males" areas developed, and most females will have more "Female" areas developed, but that isn't a hard and fast rule either.

The fact is that gender and the individuals that fit into that gender are not all able to be stereotyped and boxed up, they range right across the spectrum, which means that there are some woman just as capable of being rugby mad boofheads as males are, and contrariwise, there are those men that enjoy Opera and Broadway without being interested in boys too.
Interesting article about differences in brains between the sexes. Yes there are differences but I think a couple of sentences from that article sums up what these statistical differences really mean at an individual level: ....In other words, just by looking at the brain scan, or height, of someone plucked at random from the study, researchers would be hard pressed to say whether it came from a man or woman. That suggests both sexes’ brains are far more similar than they are different...
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:17 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
When I was young (<10) I read all the Willard Price 'Adventure' books, fantastic stories for kids growing up. I also read Andrew Lang's Fairy stories collections, few of which would these days be deemed suitable for children (I am haunted by 'The Dog and the Sparrow' all these decades later). Even 100 years ago, Lang bemoaned the direction children's stories were taking



I doubt he would believe the sanitised garbage we force upon our younger generation today.
Load of crap. Books today for kids will have topics in them that were pretty much taboo in the books for kids that were promoted say 40 years ago. You'll find.... gosh ... sex in the books. You'll find abuse of kids (and not the saccharine you'll not get to ride the donkey if you are naughty abuse), you'll find death with real meaning and so on.

Kids books of my day and age were the completely sanitized versions that kept kids away from anything like reality.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Well in some cases where the parents aren't readers the teachers recommendations are what kids go by as it's their only encouragement

What other books were recommended by these teachers? Surely those two are not the only ones.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:33 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Load of crap. Books today for kids will have topics in them that were pretty much taboo in the books for kids that were promoted say 40 years ago. You'll find.... gosh ... sex in the books. You'll find abuse of kids (and not the saccharine you'll not get to ride the donkey if you are naughty abuse), you'll find death with real meaning and so on.

Kids books of my day and age were the completely sanitized versions that kept kids away from anything like reality.
Hey, I'll make my own arguments, you stick to yours. You said it right there. "Kids' books of my day and age ... kept kids away from anything like reality."

That's what kids books should be doing! Imagination! Adventure! Fantasy! Fun! Not some agenda-driven social-issue-oriented PC claptrap designed to 'teach' the kids how to think in the real world. God almighty, how depressing.

(And for the record, kids don't want to read books about sex or child abuse).
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:51 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Then perhaps you were unwise to select a blatantly anti-male section and post it as your evidence.

The section, the grandmother, the author and the book aren't blatantly (or even the slightest bit) anti-male.

Quote:
Thanks, it was a real effort to 'deliberately ignore' something that you posted. I normally hang on your every word and feel compelled to address every single nuance of your input.

I know that you normally as well as in this instance don't feel compelled to acknowledge or address the nuances that make up reality.

Quote:
Now that I'm deliberately taking notice of this sentence, what would you like me to say about it?

Nothing. Nothing at all. But if you had taken notice a little earlier, it's one of the many nuances that would have informed a more observant reader that the author Gary Paulsen isn't anti-male, and so you wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that his book The Quilt is.

About the author:
Quote:
Running away from home at the age of 14 and traveling with a carnival, Paulsen acquired a taste for adventure. A youthful summer of rigorous chores on a farm; jobs as an engineer, construction worker, ranch hand, truck driver, and sailor; and two rounds of the 1,180-mile Alaskan dog sled race, the Iditarod; have provided ample material from which he creates his stories.
About the book:
Quote:
A six-year-old boy goes to spend the summer with his grandmother Alida in a small town near the Canadian border. With the men all gone off to fight, the women are left to run the farms. There’s plenty for the boy to do—trying to help with the chores, getting to know the dog, and the horses, cows, pigs, and chickens.

But when his cousin Kristina goes into labor, he can’t do a thing. Instead, the house fills with women come to help and to wait, and to work on a quilt together. This is no common, everyday quilt, but one that contains all the stories of the boy’s family. The quilt tells the truth, past and future: of happiness, courage, and pain; of the greatest joy, and the greatest loss. And as they wait, the women share these memorable stories with the boy.

But you're right, of course: Here we have this wuss writing this piece of chick lit about a little wuss listening to stories told by old women. Nobody can convince us that any proper masculine boy would be interested in reading **** like this. (Except for the nuance called reality that tells us that, yes, apparently they are! Girls too, by the way.)
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:52 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Here is the era of boys fiction OP is yearning for:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Parody aside, it is interesting to note that after Edward Stratemeyer hit it out of the park in the boys' book world in the late 1920s with the Hardy Boys book packaging combine it only took him a couple of years to see and pursue the same opportunity in the market for girls with Nancy Drew.

And he did it by packaging the same stories with the only significant difference being the gender of the the protagonists. Aside from that the books were virtually interchangeable.

And for the most part enjoyed by both genders of readers. (If perhaps somewhat surreptitiously on the part of the boys ).
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:53 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Hey, I'll make my own arguments, you stick to yours. You said it right there. "Kids' books of my day and age ... kept kids away from anything like reality."

That's what kids books should be doing! Imagination! Adventure! Fantasy! Fun! Not some agenda-driven social-issue-oriented PC claptrap designed to 'teach' the kids how to think in the real world. God almighty, how depressing.

(And for the record, kids don't want to read books about sex or child abuse).

You obviously don't need books to keep you away from reality.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd January 2018, 08:58 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by bonzombiekitty View Post
Man, looking through his bibliography, I actually read a lot of books by Paulsen when I was a kid. Most of them I don't remember the plot of (I mostly remember Hatchet and The River), but I recall having read them now that I look at the cover.

Is that what made you so blatantly anti-male?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:03 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The section, the grandmother, the author and the book aren't blatantly (or even the slightest bit) anti-male.


I know that you normally as well as in this instance don't feel compelled to acknowledge or address the nuances that make up reality.
At least make your comebacks humorous if you can't manage to give them content.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Nothing. Nothing at all.

OK.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
But if you had taken notice a little earlier, it's one of the many nuances that would have informed a more observant reader that the author Gary Paulsen isn't anti-male, and so you wouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that his book The Quilt is.

About the author:


About the book:
I never mentioned the author, I addressed the book and its message as described by the quote you specifically selected. I neither know the political and social leanings of the author, nor do I wish to.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
But you're right, of course: Here we have this wuss writing this piece of chick lit about a little wuss listening to stories told by old women. Nobody can convince us that any proper masculine boy would be interested in reading **** like this. (Except for the nuance called reality that tells us that, yes, apparently they are! Girls too, by the way.)
Goodness, you really don't like it when someone disagrees with you about a book. Shock horror, someone doesn't like a book that I like! Hysteria!
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:08 AM   #117
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Baron teaches literature 1.01

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Let me tell you a little bit about fiction (and yes, semi-autobiographical accounts are classed as fiction). This is somewhat basic, the kind of stuff a junior school kid might learn in writing class, but apparently it needs spelling out to you. If the author has a message to convey, he or she will do it through the medium of his characters' interactions. A character's opinion, unless challenged in the narrative, forms a part of the message the author wishes to get across.

Very good, baron! And in The Quilt, the narrative shows the grandmother caring for her grandson and grieving her father and husband, who were fishermen and died at sea. (Their names and with their names also their stories have become part of the quilt.)

Quote:
So if the story has a character who states, "Homosexuals are unnatural and dirty," and his opinion is not countered, or proved incorrect by events, or called into question by other failings of his broader personality traits, then it can be understood that the author wants to communicate a homophobic message. The same holds true for any statement, positive or negative. This concept is especially valid when writing for children, who have a much weaker societal and cultural grounding from which to interpret what they read and therefore require less of a push to be influenced.

It's not the children's "societal and cultural grounding" that worries me ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:11 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Hysteria!

It's pretty obvious who's having the hissy fit.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:27 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Hey, I'll make my own arguments, you stick to yours. You said it right there. "Kids' books of my day and age ... kept kids away from anything like reality."

That's what kids books should be doing! Imagination! Adventure! Fantasy! Fun! Not some agenda-driven social-issue-oriented PC claptrap designed to 'teach' the kids how to think in the real world. God almighty, how depressing.

(And for the record, kids don't want to read books about sex or child abuse).

You seem to be confused in your arguments. First you rant about today's "sanitized garbage", and then you deplore today's "real life" "claptrap".

And you might want to compare your "record" of what kids want to read with what they actually say that they like the best. Your "record" doesn't seem to reflect the preferences they show by book subject popularity.

It's the (largely fundi conservative ) parents and grandparents who don't want their children reading about sex or child abuse, topics which those same kids confront in real life on a daily basis and dearly wish that some grownups somewhere weren't too chicken-**** to talk about honestly.
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Old 2nd January 2018, 09:27 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Very good, baron! And in The Quilt, the narrative shows the grandmother caring for her grandson and grieving her father and husband, who were fishermen and died at sea.
And what message do you imagine this conveys? A hundred years ago women were generally regarded as second class citizens whose place was in the home and who should not even have a say in the democratic running of the country. Yet do you think the husbands and sons of these women did not care for them? Did they not grieve for them if they died? Of course they did, so thinking along this vein, do you believe that the story of this particular grandmother caring for her male relatives means she did not harbour views biased against males?

No, me neither.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's not the children's "societal and cultural grounding" that worries me ...
Don't be worried, just try and think logically.
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