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Tags Poland incidents , Poland issues , protest incidents , white supremacists

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Old 23rd November 2017, 05:45 AM   #41
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
And you know better
Of course I do. It's not that hard to know better than neo-nazis, you should try it once.

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Do you think they don't notice that Western Europe is so much nicer and more prosperous than Eastern Europe?
It is now, after the fall of the Warsaw pact. Before that it was the other way around. Which you could easily determine by noticing that out of the groups which resettled from East Germany to West Germany almost all chose to return just a few years later.

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the decades long oppression of Poland
Only exists in your head. The Polish aristocracy was oppressed, as well as the more brutal members of the military of the previous regime and various fascist groups, which can only be applauded.

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can be mocked
Just like white people complaining about being oppressed by black people because they're not allowed to lynch them anymore can be mocked.

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I am quite admiring of socialists who implement socialism without violence, coersion, or stealing. The other kind are bitter, angry people who are quite prone to killing people in large numbers. The former generally take extreme measures to avoid killing people.
Oh please. You're doing nothing but whine about how the rulers and collaborators of a brutal military dictatorship (the Polish second republic) ended up being "oppressed" after the communists took over. How dare the communists free the servants of the ruling aristocracy, those commies are just soooo oppressive! It makes your political position quite clear.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 06:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
...

I guess that's what I was getting at. There are quite a few people in Europe who are not happy with the high rates of immigration, and I think some of them have good reasons.
None of them can be in Poland, or Hungary or Slovakia, for there is practically zero immigration. Lots of emmigration, though.

In Germany, there is a strong negative correlation between local percentage of immigrants on one hand, and racist crime or votes for neonazi parties on the other: the more immigrants people actually interact with, have personal experiences with, the LESS likely they are to support right-wing nonsense.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 08:57 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Of course I do. It's not that hard to know better than neo-nazis, you should try it once.
Being smarter than neo-Nazis is a very low bar. An even lower bar is being smarter than an anarcho-communist.

I think if you want to tell them communism is their solution that you will need very compelling evidence. They have literally generations of experience with that and it's left

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
It is now, after the fall of the Warsaw pact. Before that it was the other way around.
You're claiming that life in Soviet Poland was better than, say life in Western Germany at the same period?

Let's see your evidence.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Which you could easily determine by noticing that out of the groups which resettled from East Germany to West Germany almost all chose to return just a few years later.
Very confused thinking on your part. That they wanted to leave in the first place is evidence that things were not better before, that they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that things had improved.

What changed? Where did these improvements come from?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Only exists in your head. The Polish aristocracy was oppressed, as well as the more brutal members of the military of the previous regime and various fascist groups, which can only be applauded.
I suppose in your mind this covers the Katyn massacre, the internment of the Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prissoner massacre, the mass deportations, the arrests of politicians, scientist, civil servants, clergy and anyone who could be called "intelligentsia". In your mind they all "had it comming"?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Just like white people complaining about being oppressed by black people because they're not allowed to lynch them anymore can be mocked.
Is equality for black people the same as Soviet imperialism? I don't think so. One is elevating a minority to the same privileged class as the majority, the other is brutal murder, theft and oppression.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Oh please. You're doing nothing but whine about how the rulers and collaborators of a brutal military dictatorship (the Polish second republic) ended up being "oppressed" after the communists took over. How dare the communists free the servants of the ruling aristocracy, those commies are just soooo oppressive! It makes your political position quite clear.
That was so awful that the Soviet Union was justified in collaborating with the Nazis to destroy it?

I can name lots and lots of examples of Soviet oppression of the Polish people after the soviets took over, but it's much harder to find examples of how the Polish were oppressed by their own government before. Can you name some?
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Old 23rd November 2017, 12:19 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You're claiming that life in Soviet Poland was better than, say life in Western Germany at the same period?

Let's see your evidence.
I thought you had "generations of experience" to listen to?

Quote:
Very confused thinking on your part. That they wanted to leave in the first place is evidence that things were not better before, that they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that things had improved.
No, that they wanted to leave is evidence that they believed in an advertised socio-economic system. That they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that their experience with the reality of said socio-economic system enabled them to finally understand that it only works as advertised when you're part of the few aristocrats rather than the many servants.

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What changed?
They stopped being total morons.

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Where did these improvements come from?
Their confrontation with the actual reality of said socio-economic system rather than merely its propaganda.

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Is equality for black people the same as Soviet imperialism?
Intriguingly, yes. Racial equality is one of the many achievements of the USSR.

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I can name lots and lots of examples of Soviet oppression of the Polish people after the soviets took over
Bet you 10$ you can't name a single one. Or at least not a single one where the oppression is based on being a member of the "Polish people" as such, rather than just happenstance. For example expropriating a Polish wealthy landowner and redistributing the land is not oppression of the "Polish people" as such, given that the recipients of the land are equally Polish. Same for, say, expropriating large estates to house the homeless.

Quote:
but it's much harder to find examples of how the Polish were oppressed by their own government before. Can you name some?
If you close your eyes really hard it's totally possible to miss that military dictatorship rigging elections, imprisoning political opponents - especially communists, and brutally suppressing dissent.
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Old 24th November 2017, 10:08 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I thought you had "generations of experience" to listen to?
An opinion poll as evidence, how adorable!

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No, that they wanted to leave is evidence that they believed in an advertised socio-economic system. That they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that their experience with the reality of said socio-economic system enabled them to finally understand that it only works as advertised when you're part of the few aristocrats rather than the many servants.
Germany is still working to bring it's Eastern population up to parity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...ermany/307776/

They had the advantage of being grafted onto one of the most powerful economies in Europe. Other former Soviet satellite nations haven’t had that advantage and are still struggling.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Their confrontation with the actual reality of said socio-economic system rather than merely its propaganda.
They believed capitalism was magical and wealth would come without work. Of course they were disappointed. It didn’t help that the transition was abrupt and mismanaged.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Intriguingly, yes. Racial equality is one of the many achievements of the USSR.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism...targeted_group

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Bet you 10$ you can't name a single one. Or at least not a single one where the oppression is based on being a member of the "Polish people" as such, rather than just happenstance. For example expropriating a Polish wealthy landowner and redistributing the land is not oppression of the "Polish people" as such, given that the recipients of the land are equally Polish. Same for, say, expropriating large estates to house the homeless.
I already did that when I named the Katyn massacre, the internment of Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prisoner massacre and mass deportations. I suppose I could go on, that’s depressing research.

Expropriating land and taking it for the state is not the equivalent redistributing to the people, although I can see how it may seem like it in your bizarre anarcho-communist worldview.
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Old 24th November 2017, 05:39 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes, Russia's production dwarfed Germany's, as it should have. Russia had more than double the population and the access to resources, yet when Germany invaded they went deep and slaughtered Russians by the millions even while fighting another war on its other front. Yes, the Russians repelled them eventually, but at a staggering cost in humans lives.
That was literally the most massive invasion in history, so it's hard to say whether Russia was "hit harder" than it should have been. ANY invading force has a tremendous advantage until they begin to stretch their supply lines. The Germans had local numerical superiority up to Moscow or so, yet took massive losses themselves. Of course the crippled officer corps hurt (but properly contextualized it's a bit more complex than "stalin paranoid" - military intervention in politics was a partially justified fear), but much of it was a matter of the limited responses an invaded nation can muster at first.

The whole operation was an insane suicide mission that no remotely rational person should have ever considered. Those are remarkably hard to defend oneself against. The trajectory followed by Russia is not really that unique - massive setbacks at first, followed by re-organisation and effective resistance, followed by victory. It's telling that Stalin was confident enough about Moscow to not have a detailed escape plan.

I'm not sure Communism is relevant. The Soviet administration was insanely efficient at times, and some politically appointed military comissars like Kruschev and Beria ended up being huge boons.
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Old 25th November 2017, 07:54 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
An opinion poll as evidence, how adorable!
Amusing to see how fast you backpedal from your "generations of experience", which supposedly explains nazis' anti-communism, once you realize that those generations say the exact opposite of what you want them to say.

Have you ever considered rather changing your worldview in accordance with actual data and evidence? It might help with that tenuous grasp on reality you seem to have.

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They believed capitalism was magical and wealth would come without work.
Like our earlier Amelia's family? Obviously the aristocracy and wealthy land and factory owners were doing all the work, and their servants were slacking lazy asses - that follows directly from observing that the former have the wealth and not the latter.

The only people who actually believe capitalism is a meritocracy are either total morons or bourgeoisie who feel the need to stroke their own ego.

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Of course they were disappointed. It didn’t help that the transition was abrupt and mismanaged.
It wasn't abrupt or mismanaged. Quite the opposite, it could easily take a couple of years for people in East Germany to be included in the groups which were to resettle in West Germany. One constant throughout the cold war though is that most of the people in those groups chose to return to East Germany just a few years later.

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Thank you for proving my point. Yes, after the "communist oppression" of nationalists and fascists ended they regained the freedom to harass and attack minorities, including full-blown pogroms such as at Rostock.

Quote:
I already did that when I named the Katyn massacre, the internment of Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prisoner massacre and mass deportations. I suppose I could go on, that’s depressing research.
Still misrepresenting those as oppression against the "Polish people"? I suppose it suits your nationalist propaganda to do so. Do you also think denazification was oppression of the "Deutsche Volk"?

Quote:
Expropriating land and taking it for the state is not the equivalent redistributing to the people, although I can see how it may seem like it in your bizarre anarcho-communist worldview.
Meh. If you expropriate a wealthy landowner and then house the homeless in the estates and call it a "state facility against homelessness" then sure, it might have been expropriated by the state as opposed to by the people. However it would be no less a misrepresentation to call that "oppression of the Polish people" given that those homeless are equally Polish - and a lot more of them at that.

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Old 28th November 2017, 11:45 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
None of them can be in Poland, or Hungary or Slovakia, for there is practically zero immigration. Lots of emmigration, though.
This is a non-sequitur. They can still have opinions on the immigration rates of the rest of Europe, and they can still have good reasons for not wanting high immigration into their own countries. Heck, I'm an American, and I think the immigration policies in parts of Europe are going to be disastrous, if they haven't been already.

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In Germany, there is a strong negative correlation between local percentage of immigrants on one hand, and racist crime or votes for neonazi parties on the other: the more immigrants people actually interact with, have personal experiences with, the LESS likely they are to support right-wing nonsense.
Cite? Your wording seems to have a lot of wiggle room. How do you define "right-wing nonsense"? Anything other than fully open borders, or...?
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Old 30th November 2017, 06:55 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
That was literally the most massive invasion in history, so it's hard to say whether Russia was "hit harder" than it should have been. ANY invading force has a tremendous advantage until they begin to stretch their supply lines. The Germans had local numerical superiority up to Moscow or so, yet took massive losses themselves. Of course the crippled officer corps hurt (but properly contextualized it's a bit more complex than "stalin paranoid" - military intervention in politics was a partially justified fear), but much of it was a matter of the limited responses an invaded nation can muster at first.

The whole operation was an insane suicide mission that no remotely rational person should have ever considered. Those are remarkably hard to defend oneself against. The trajectory followed by Russia is not really that unique - massive setbacks at first, followed by re-organisation and effective resistance, followed by victory. It's telling that Stalin was confident enough about Moscow to not have a detailed escape plan.

I'm not sure Communism is relevant. The Soviet administration was insanely efficient at times, and some politically appointed military comissars like Kruschev and Beria ended up being huge boons.
Good analysis. For another example, see the Korean war.
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Old 20th December 2017, 08:34 PM   #50
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Didn't want to start a new thread, but Polish nationalism is in the news again. They're facing EU sanctions because of some changes to their judiciary. Be interesting to see where this goes.
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Old 24th December 2017, 12:34 PM   #51
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An important aspect of the current rise in Polish nationalism is the role played by Donald Trump. This article is in German, and I don't know how well Google translate will handle it: Trump als Chance (junge Welt, Oct. 13, 2017). junge Welt is a left-wing newspaper.
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Old 28th January 2018, 11:31 AM   #52
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I'm starting to develop a mild interest in Polish politics. They're currently having a bit of a row with Israel over some laws related to how people are allowed to discuss the Holocaust.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42848842
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Old 28th January 2018, 11:38 AM   #53
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Gosh, why bother with argument if all you need do is legislate the truth? Real time-saver.
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Old 28th January 2018, 01:29 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I'm starting to develop a mild interest in Polish politics. They're currently having a bit of a row with Israel over some laws related to how people are allowed to discuss the Holocaust.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42848842
Geesh, talk about sensitive. Sure, the phrase "Polish death camp" is unfortunate, but I'm not aware of anyone who uses it to imply that they were set up and/or operated by Poles. It is, however, a matter of historical record that they were located in Poland. Is the phrase "death camp on Polish territory" also verboten according to the new law?
Quote:
Israeli officials are opposed to the proposed law, suggesting it will limit discussion of Polish involvement in the Holocaust.

"This is a shameful disregard of the truth," said Israel's Education and Diaspora Affairs Minister Naftali Bennett.

"It is a historic fact that many Poles aided in the murder of Jews, handed them in, abused them, and even killed Jews during and after the Holocaust."
It is also historic fact that many Poles put their lives on the line to hide and protect their Jewish neighbours. But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.
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Old 28th January 2018, 03:40 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Geesh, talk about sensitive. Sure, the phrase "Polish death camp" is unfortunate, but I'm not aware of anyone who uses it to imply that they were set up and/or operated by Poles. It is, however, a matter of historical record that they were located in Poland. Is the phrase "death camp on Polish territory" also verboten according to the new law?

It is also historic fact that many Poles put their lives on the line to hide and protect their Jewish neighbours. But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.
I don't think that is the point of the motion to ban the use of the phrase 'Polish Death Camps', but rather refer to 'Nazi Death Camps'. Poles are sensitive to the fact, they feel victims of the Nazis themselves. It's an identity thing.

Many Jews in Israel - or at least the ones I encountered in Jerusalem - adorned themselves sartorically in C16 Warsaw clothing, some with exaggeratedly huge cossack-style hats. Half the people in my plane flying to Tel Aviv were dressed in a more toned down 'Stamford Hill' way, long sidelocks and rabbi hats, and likewise on my recent flight to Gdansk. (Poland.)

It's to do with saying, hey, we are also the victims of Nazi Germany, we want to be loved, we identify strongly with our Polish heritage, Jew and Pole, alike. It's to do with self-esteem.

So yes, the proposal by Netanyahu makes sense to me.
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Old 28th January 2018, 06:27 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
...But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.
Where is that happening?
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Old 29th January 2018, 12:34 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Where is that happening?
I seem to recall Bibi doing a war dance around Obama with some GOP buddies over the Iran nuke question, which for people like this corrupt little man, can and should only be resolved using extreme military measures. I believe Obama was smeared from day one of his administration simply because he disagreed with, gosh, Israel's illegal settlements, and therefore could, and should, be used as an easy - and btw, subtly racist - foil.

Like Trump, Bibi is fast undoing all things that tether the country to a sober, responsible role in the world, and in both cases, making a complete mockery of any claims to "democratic values" by either nation. Both are dedicated to a single-state, religiously authoritarian solution in Israel and Palestine, and their followers are all too quick to paint others with the antisemitic brush.

But hey, nice benchmark. The people of "Never Again," marching arm in arm now with those who link arms with Nazis. Kool-aid has never been cooler.
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Old 29th January 2018, 06:31 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think that is the point of the motion to ban the use of the phrase 'Polish Death Camps', but rather refer to 'Nazi Death Camps'. Poles are sensitive to the fact, they feel victims of the Nazis themselves. It's an identity thing.
Those who of course do not identify with the Nazis, unlike the 60K marching who are fine with being seen as nazis.
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Old 29th January 2018, 08:55 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post

<snip>

It is also historic fact that many Poles put their lives on the line to hide and protect their Jewish neighbours. But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.
However, the story is a bit more complicated, as this article states:

Quote:
... the Nazis also “drew upon some Polish agencies, such as Polish police forces and railroad personnel, in the guarding of ghettos and the deportation of Jews to the killing centers.” Individual Poles, the museum writes, “often helped in the identification, denunciation, and hunting down of Jews in hiding, often profiting from the associated blackmail, and actively participated in the plunder of Jewish property.”

A notorious example of Polish persecution of Jews is the 1941 massacre at Jedwabne, during which Polish villagers reportedly herded hundreds of Jewish women and children in a barn and set it on fire, burning the victims alive. (Though historians maintain that locals’ involvement in the massacre was a matter of historical record, some Poles have denied Polish complicity)...
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Old 29th January 2018, 09:02 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I seem to recall Bibi doing a war dance around Obama with some GOP buddies over the Iran nuke question, which for people like this corrupt little man, can and should only be resolved using extreme military measures. I believe Obama was smeared from day one of his administration simply because he disagreed with, gosh, Israel's illegal settlements, and therefore could, and should, be used as an easy - and btw, subtly racist - foil.
Obama was criticized for not supporting Israel as strongly as previous administrations, but I don't recall anyone, certainly not Netenyahu, calling him an anti-Semite over it. I can't tell from reading that paragraph, are you claiming he did?

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
But hey, nice benchmark. The people of "Never Again," marching arm in arm now with those who link arms with Nazis. Kool-aid has never been cooler.
Where do you see this happening?
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Old 29th January 2018, 11:55 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I'm starting to develop a mild interest in Polish politics. They're currently having a bit of a row with Israel over some laws related to how people are allowed to discuss the Holocaust.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42848842
The Poles have a lot to be ashamed about for their behaviour during the Holocaust. I'm not surprised that this nationalist government wants to ban any talk about this.
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Old 30th January 2018, 12:50 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Obama was criticized for not supporting Israel as strongly as previous administrations, but I don't recall anyone, certainly not Netenyahu, calling him an anti-Semite over it. I can't tell from reading that paragraph, are you claiming he did?
Let's not be ingenuous. The hard right, including Netanyahu, uses attack dogs for this to keep his image "honorable." Propaganda Methods of the Righteous 101.

Quote:
Where do you see this happening?
Trump's Charlottesville response and clear embrace of right-wing extremism in general, including his own attack dog, Miller (earlier, Bannon). To be clear:

Nazi flags flew, a woman was murdered, Trump and his GOP blamed the victim.

The Israelis want to name Metro stops and streets after Trump (!!!) ... signalling either the outcome from years of heavy glue sniffing, or the kind of deeply mistaken retreat to madness that fundamentalism engenders. Now that Israel has clearly decided this is a religious war -- and not the struggle of an formerly oppressed people to live in peace and justice, just as others also might do -- Israel, as a friend or ally, is a driving force in the steep ethical decline of its partners.

Yet another stellar trouser drop by yet another bling-obsessed people worshiping might over right. Quite the fashion trend these days. No thanks, and goodbye unworthy Israel, back-stabbing traitor to the very values underlying support for its creation. It has now earned, and must own, the spite of its enemies.
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Old 30th January 2018, 04:52 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Let's not be ingenuous. The hard right, including Netanyahu, uses attack dogs for this to keep his image "honorable." Propaganda Methods of the Righteous 101.


Trump's Charlottesville response and clear embrace of right-wing extremism in general, including his own attack dog, Miller (earlier, Bannon). To be clear:

Nazi flags flew, a woman was murdered, Trump and his GOP blamed the victim.

The Israelis want to name Metro stops and streets after Trump (!!!) ... signalling either the outcome from years of heavy glue sniffing, or the kind of deeply mistaken retreat to madness that fundamentalism engenders. Now that Israel has clearly decided this is a religious war -- and not the struggle of an formerly oppressed people to live in peace and justice, just as others also might do -- Israel, as a friend or ally, is a driving force in the steep ethical decline of its partners.

Yet another stellar trouser drop by yet another bling-obsessed people worshiping might over right. Quite the fashion trend these days. No thanks, and goodbye unworthy Israel, back-stabbing traitor to the very values underlying support for its creation. It has now earned, and must own, the spite of its enemies.
That is the magic of trump. He can bring Nazis and Jews together in their hatred of muslims.
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Old 30th January 2018, 07:37 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Let's not be ingenuous. The hard right, including Netanyahu, uses attack dogs for this to keep his image "honorable." Propaganda Methods of the Righteous 101.
I'm not being "ingenuous", I'm calling out your BS. I'm doing that because it’s deep and odorous and should be called out.

That guy made his comments about Obama and Kerry before being named as Netenyahu's media advisor and the revelation of those comments let to the controversy behind his leaving that office. This I learned reading the article you linked to and having never heard of the guy before.

So the goalposts start at Netenyahu accuses people of anti-Semitism presumably for political purposes, or whatever DDT meant as he failed to elaborate. You moved the goalposts to people making the accusation for him, but you failed to meet that goal too.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Trump's Charlottesville response and clear embrace of right-wing extremism in general, including his own attack dog, Miller (earlier, Bannon). To be clear:

Nazi flags flew, a woman was murdered, Trump and his GOP blamed the victim.
Which has nothing to do with Netenyahu. All world leaders work with other world leaders on and common goals and issues they agree on. This does not imply agreement in other areas. Trump and only Trump is responsible for his shameful response to Charlottesville.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The Israelis want to name Metro stops and streets after Trump (!!!) ... signalling either the outcome from years of heavy glue sniffing, or the kind of deeply mistaken retreat to madness that fundamentalism engenders. Now that Israel has clearly decided this is a religious war -- and not the struggle of an formerly oppressed people to live in peace and justice, just as others also might do -- Israel, as a friend or ally, is a driving force in the steep ethical decline of its partners.
Israel has not decided this is a religious war, and that kind of hyperbole is at best unhelpful and at worst purposeful disinformation. Fundamentalism certainly is an issue in this conflict, but if you can only see it on the Israeli side then you are not paying attention.

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Yet another stellar trouser drop by yet another bling-obsessed people worshiping might over right. Quite the fashion trend these days. No thanks, and goodbye unworthy Israel, back-stabbing traitor to the very values underlying support for its creation. It has now earned, and must own, the spite of its enemies.
It’s hard to parse that into anything of substance. Who are these “bling-obsessed” peoples of which you speak?
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Old 30th January 2018, 10:45 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The Poles have a lot to be ashamed about for their behaviour during the Holocaust. I'm not surprised that this nationalist government wants to ban any talk about this.
The Jerusalem Post takes a more reasonable view. What is surprising is that Poles could suffer so much at the hands of racists in the past, and still elect such a gang as their present government.

But looking at the mountebank now in the White House, I note that such mystery is not confined to Poland.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:05 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The Jerusalem Post takes a more reasonable view. What is surprising is that Poles could suffer so much at the hands of racists in the past, and still elect such a gang as their present government.

But looking at the mountebank now in the White House, I note that such mystery is not confined to Poland.
Well I never said that Poland was responsible for the Holocaust nor that there were many heroic, honorable Poles who helped the Jews. But it was a nation that enthusiastically collaborated with the Nazis, helped enable some of the worst crimes ever committed.
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Old 31st January 2018, 02:16 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well I never said that Poland was responsible for the Holocaust nor that there were many heroic, honorable Poles who helped the Jews. But it was a nation that enthusiastically collaborated with the Nazis, helped enable some of the worst crimes ever committed.
That's simply not true. There was no "Vichy Poland", and the Nazis killed upward two million Poles. There were individual pogroms where Nazis would stoke anti-Jewish sentiment in Polish communities and individual Poles who reported Jews for rewards, but nothing like large-scale widespread collaboration. You have to consider the pressure an occupying force exerts on communities as well. One of the basic strategies in subduing a population is to sow division and mistrust between groups by pressuring and encouraging individuals to betray each other. Any blame-assigning really needs to be carefully considered.
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Old 31st January 2018, 04:40 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Where is that happening?
In this case, by a very slanted and one-sided statement unjustly attacking the attitudes and acts of the Poles during WW2, and using that to paint this proposed law. I have no love lost for the current Polish regime, but from the media reports on the law, it is not meant to stifle discussion or historical research into Polish collaboration during WW2.
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Old 31st January 2018, 05:53 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
In this case, by a very slanted and one-sided statement unjustly attacking the attitudes and acts of the Poles during WW2, and using that to paint this proposed law. I have no love lost for the current Polish regime, but from the media reports on the law, it is not meant to stifle discussion or historical research into Polish collaboration during WW2.
The only quote from Netenyahu I could find in the article:

"I strongly oppose it. One cannot change history and the Holocaust cannot be denied,"

Is that the statement you're referring to?
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Old 31st January 2018, 06:01 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The only quote from Netenyahu I could find in the article:

"I strongly oppose it. One cannot change history and the Holocaust cannot be denied,"

Is that the statement you're referring to?
See my post #54 for the statement I was referring to, by education minister Naftali Bennett.

But that Netanyahu statement you quote there also qualifies. I don't think this law denies in any way the Holocaust. By casting it as such, in a roundabout way Netanyahu accuses the current Polish government of being antisemitic.
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Old 31st January 2018, 06:25 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
See my post #54 for the statement I was referring to, by education minister Naftali Bennett.
Naftali Bennett is a "crony" of Netenyahu?

"It is a historic fact that many Poles aided in the murder of Jews, handed them in, abused them, and even killed Jews during and after the Holocaust."

No part of that statement is not objectively true. It's also true that many Polish people of that era resisted the Nazis and helped Jews escape, but the proposed law doesn't forbid talking about that.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
But that Netanyahu statement you quote there also qualifies. I don't think this law denies in any way the Holocaust. By casting it as such, in a roundabout way Netanyahu accuses the current Polish government of being antisemitic.
The article describes the law as making it illegal to accuse Polish people of complicity with the Nazis. Since some Polish people were complicit, wouldn't that be denial?
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Old 31st January 2018, 06:54 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Naftali Bennett is a "crony" of Netenyahu?

"It is a historic fact that many Poles aided in the murder of Jews, handed them in, abused them, and even killed Jews during and after the Holocaust."

No part of that statement is not objectively true. It's also true that many Polish people of that era resisted the Nazis and helped Jews escape, but the proposed law doesn't forbid talking about that.
And the same could be said of the French, the Dutch - about any country that was occupied by the Nazis. And in each case, the "many" is only many in absolute terms, not in percentage-wise terms.

In this context, only highlighting one side only serves to frame the Poles as massively anti-semitic.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The article describes the law as making it illegal to accuse Polish people of complicity with the Nazis. Since some Polish people were complicit, wouldn't that be denial?
My understanding is that "Polish people" in this context only refers to the collective, so discussing individual Polish collaborators is not prohibited. There's already a wiki page on the subject which gives an English translation of the law:
Quote:
1. Who, in public and against facts, ascribes to the Polish People or to the Polish State responsibility or co-responsibility for the Nazi crimes committed by the Third Reich [...]
3. There is to offense referred to in para. 1 and 2, if the act was committed as part of artistic or scientific activity.
Specifically in the case of scientific enquiry, it would require an especially corrupt judge to overlook para 3.

And yes, I'm mindful of the odious nature of the current Polish regime; and also of the safeguard of the ECHR.
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Old 31st January 2018, 10:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And the same could be said of the French, the Dutch - about any country that was occupied by the Nazis.

In this context, only highlighting one side only serves to frame the Poles as massively anti-semitic.
Yes, the same could be said about the French and the Dutch, but it’s not because neither the French nor the Dutch are considering a law making it illegal to talk about French or Dutch complicity with the Nazis. The Polish people are being singled out not to portray them as being especially anti-Semitic, but because it’s their government that is considering this law. That one side is highlighted because that’s what this law would censor, not because they want to be unfair to the Polish people.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
My understanding is that "Polish people" in this context only refers to the collective, so discussing individual Polish collaborators is not prohibited.
Speaking about them in the collective shouldn’t be prohibited either. Do you disagree?

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
There's already a wiki page on the subject which gives an English translation of the law:

Specifically in the case of scientific enquiry, it would require an especially corrupt judge to overlook para 3.
I’m not an attorney, but I don’t see anything on that Wikipedia page that tells me the law is anything other than described in the article. It certainly seems like it could be interpreted to prosecute people who speak the truth about Polish collaboration with the Nazi occupation.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And yes, I'm mindful of the odious nature of the current Polish regime; and also of the safeguard of the ECHR.
Which is why it’s puzzling that you feel it’s Netenyahu who should be singled out for criticism here.
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Old 31st January 2018, 12:25 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Yes, the same could be said about the French and the Dutch, but it’s not because neither the French nor the Dutch are considering a law making it illegal to talk about French or Dutch complicity with the Nazis. The Polish people are being singled out not to portray them as being especially anti-Semitic, but because it’s their government that is considering this law. That one side is highlighted because that’s what this law would censor, not because they want to be unfair to the Polish people.
I disagree, from the wording of the law, that this would censor that.


Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Speaking about them in the collective shouldn’t be prohibited either. Do you disagree?
I agree with you. But I don't see how this is what it's touted to be. It prohibits claiming the "Polish People" - i.e., the collection of all Poles living at the time - collaborated with the Nazis in the Holocaust. It doesn't prohibit saying that Lech A. or Stanislaus B., or even the villagers of village X did that.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I’m not an attorney, but I don’t see anything on that Wikipedia page that tells me the law is anything other than described in the article. It certainly seems like it could be interpreted to prosecute people who speak the truth about Polish collaboration with the Nazi occupation.
I don't see that. I refer again to para 3, and I'm confident that the ECHR would strike that down.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Which is why it’s puzzling that you feel it’s Netenyahu who should be singled out for criticism here.
Did you miss my criticism of the Polish government in my first post in this thread? And for one, I don't see an antisemitic motivation in this law, and for two, Netanyahu's own criticism that it would constitute "Holocaust denial" is completely over the top - if you read the law, it frickingly affirms in the first paragraph that the Holocaust took place.
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Old 31st January 2018, 07:09 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I disagree, from the wording of the law, that this would censor that.
Do you?

I’ve read the law as described in the article and I’ve read through the Wikipedia page you linked to, and I do not share your confidence.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I agree with you. But I don't see how this is what it's touted to be. It prohibits claiming the "Polish People" - i.e., the collection of all Poles living at the time - collaborated with the Nazis in the Holocaust. It doesn't prohibit saying that Lech A. or Stanislaus B., or even the villagers of village X did that.
If I went to Poland and wrote some articles pointing out that the Polish people have a history of anti-Semitism, that it existed in Poland long before the Nazis came, that the Nazis encouraged and stoked what already existed, and indeed that Polish anti-Semitism is still pretty strong today even by Eastern European standards and concluded that it would be amazing beyond belief if Polish anti-Semitism didn’t aid the Nazi agenda in some way, it seems like I could get in trouble with this law. Everything I just said is either objectively true or perfectly reasonable conjecture, but because I’m speaking in general terms and not identifying specific people, I could be fined or jailed.

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I don't see that. I refer again to para 3, and I'm confident that the ECHR would strike that down.
If you could clarify, ECHR means European Court of Human Rights, correct? Are you saying it would strike down the whole law or just that third paragraph?

Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Did you miss my criticism of the Polish government in my first post in this thread? And for one, I don't see an antisemitic motivation in this law, and for two, Netanyahu's own criticism that it would constitute "Holocaust denial" is completely over the top - if you read the law, it frickingly affirms in the first paragraph that the Holocaust took place.
I don’t necessarily think anti-Semitism does motivate this law, at least not explicitly, but I also disagree that labeling something “holocaust denial” is axiomatically an accusation of anti-Semitism.

Very little of actual holocaust denial denies the entirety of the Holocaust. It’s almost all about minimization, nit-picking, and blame shifting. This law certainly does meet that criteria, especially by the hyperbolic standards of everyday political speech. If this law in any way deters someone from speaking an uncomfortable truth, then that truth is denied, and it does reach the level of denial regardless of the motivation of it’s author or supporters.
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