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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 22nd May 2016, 05:42 AM   #241
Roofgardener
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Dunning-Kruger strikes again!
Pffft.... I think they significantly over-estimated the value of their thesis
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Old 22nd May 2016, 05:56 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Absolutely. Been there, said it, just said it again.
your judgment is faulty
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Old 24th May 2016, 04:54 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Not in the current sense of the term. The example you cite is merely a proposition; it contains neither pejoratives nor, indeed, adjectives.
It associates anti-semitism with the critic of Zionism, without direct accusation or engaging with the actual criticism.

Your example, presumably, was "Zionism rots the brain", which, you may note, is absent adjectives. The technique is about associating two images, one your target, the other something unpleasant or repulsive. In this case the images would be "Zionism" and "rot". But what I'd doing there is very clear, there's no technique involved.

You've yet to substantiate your claim that I habitually engage in this practice.

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Having said that, there is nothing to stop you creating your own terminology or neologisms; but please do try and avoid confusion by duplication of existing germs... I mean... terms.
I'm widely read but it's not one I've come across before. I should have twigged it wasn't your own creation : while I can imagine you summoning up "parasitic", "pejorative" is a bit of a stretch. You've been fed it from somewhere as another thing to hurl willy-nilly at critics of Zionism.

You'll have noticed that associating me, a critic of Zionism, with the "parasitic pejorative" technique is itself use of the parasitic pejorative.

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In regards anti-semitism; I have neither evidence to suggest, nor any reason to believe, that you are an anti-semite.
Nor evidence that I habitually engage in parasitic pejoratives.

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A Bigot, perhaps (as defined in the Oxford English Dictionary), but not an anti-semite.
That would be down to my anti-Zionism, presumably. Which I have justified pretty extensively. It's not a position I started with - far from it, in 1967 I was all for Israel like everybody else, they were our side - but my position has formed since I learned the reality of it.

Which, you may have noticed, I am pretty conversant with. Not that we talk about that much in-between the stuff about me.
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Old 24th May 2016, 05:01 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
your judgment is faulty
Opinions differ, naturally. Ziggurat's odious spew about "The Arabs" before he switched to meaning Arab cultures was a giveaway. The guy who thought the Ottamans expelled the Crusaders is all over Arab culture, past and present, we are led to believe.

I don't buy it. And Ziggurat doesn't buy that I'm not an anti-semite. It's a match made in Heaven.

I've surely put enough material out there by now for it to show if I was, but of course I might just be concealing it particularly well.
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Old 24th May 2016, 05:03 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then why do you even care about the answer to your question?
What question?
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Old 24th May 2016, 05:51 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
That's a tad presumptions CapelDodger, because you have NO idea what "I've been told they said and wrote".
You've clearly been told they talked and wrote about the Jewish State as a refuge, unless you've just made it up yourself. Which they didn't. You've clearly been told they were prepared to share its territory with non-Jews, and again they weren't. It's all very explicit.

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It sounds like he was describing xenophobia in general ?
He was referring to an instinctive abhorrence of racial mixing, which is different from xenophobia. The point of a Jewish State was to separate Jews from other races and other races from Jews. This makes a nonsense of the idea that Palestinians could have had a place in the Jewish State but they messed it up.

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Thats a tricky question to answer, as the concept of Zionism has split into multiple different offshoots. As a political phillosophy, it has also declined in importance (and certainly relevance), insofar as its primary gaol has already been accomplished. It's kinda like asking ".. can you find any discountinuity in the philosophy of the Suffragette Movement between then and now ? ".
The continuity is in the World Zionist Organisation, which still exists and still embodies the same principles established 120 years ago. More practically, the continuity runs from the early leadership to Ben Gurion's socialists to todays Likud with no change in principle. The Palestinians were in the way and had to go.

The split in Zionism was between Ben Gurion's Socialists and the followers of Jabotinsky, who explicitly recognised the necessity of expulsion. Jabotinsky was the inspiration of the Irgun terrorist organisation, from which Likud eventually emerged to usurp the Socialists.

You seem to be unaware that the subject of Zionism and the nature of the Zionist State is very much alive in Israel today. It's getting something a cult feel to it that's been developing for a decade and more; the state now gives prizes for Zionist Art, for instance, which is kinda creepy. You should check into it. The people becomes identified with the State : the State becomes identified with an ideology : the ideology becomes identified with a leader. Which, of course, is where it currently falls down in Israel.

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Then why use the adjective "racist" AT ALL, when you seem to be agreeing that the meaning of the term (or at least, its perception within societal norms) has changed significantly since the early-mid 20th century ? why not just call them "Europeans" ?
I'm using the term in the modern sense, and it's important for people to recognise that Zionism is racist by intent. Zionism without race - the Jewish Race - is purest Zen. Israel is the embodiment of Zionism.

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This begs an interesting question. Do you regard the modern-day state of Israel to be racist ?
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CapelDodger, there was a lot of civil unrest on the run up to the decleration of the state of Israel. There was then an outright civil war between the Israelis and Arab Palestinians. There was SOME emmigration (mostly of the Palestinian Arab middle classes), but the large-scale exodus of the Arabs ONLY occured slightly later, when the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan (and several others) attacked. There is a basic causual link here.
There's a causal link between the requirement for the Palestinians to be gone and the fact that hundreds of thousands of them were gone by the time the Zionist assault ran out of steam and the US called time. They were driven out, by violence and intimidation, quite deliberately, not just during the fighting but for years afterwards. And they were shot as terrorists if they tried to retun home.

None of this would have happened if a group of European racists had not, 120 years ago, launched the Zionist enterprise and had the enterprise not been moved forward by European racists - to the modern day : Ashkenazi still run the show.

Anything that happened in the Middle East after Zionists started arriving in Palestine loudly announcing that they were coming to take the place is tainted by that fact. Yes, there was civil unrest against the Zionists, but that did require the presence of the Zionists in the first place. Of course there was fear and resentment in the existing population, fully justified by events.
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Old 25th May 2016, 04:32 AM   #247
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So if I said "Islam is a virus", what would you think?
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Old 25th May 2016, 04:34 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So if I said "Islam is a virus", what would you think?
Depends what you mean by the analogy. Religion kind of spreads like a virus.
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Old 26th May 2016, 05:10 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
So if I said "Islam is a virus", what would you think?
Much like Argumemnon, I would ask you to expand.

I wouldn't categorise it as a "parasitic pejorative", because they aren't meant to provoke thought, they're meant to create unconscious associations. Apart from that it's just too obvious, like "Zionism rots the brain".
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Old 26th May 2016, 05:18 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Depends what you mean by the analogy. Religion kind of spreads like a virus.
Have you noticed it becoming endemic over the last few decades? I'm a child of the 50's, and more religion in politics in my future was not what I was given to expect.

I was most certainly not given to expect that Israel might fall prey to it. A very curious thing is unfolding over there, and a great deal more profound than that very curious Trump thing.

Lord, the things you see if you just keep breathing ...
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Old 27th May 2016, 02:23 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
It associates anti-semitism with the critic of Zionism, without direct accusation or engaging with the actual criticism.

Your example, presumably, was "Zionism rots the brain", which, you may note, is absent adjectives. The technique is about associating two images, one your target, the other something unpleasant or repulsive. In this case the images would be "Zionism" and "rot". But what I'd doing there is very clear, there's no technique involved.

You've yet to substantiate your claim that I habitually engage in this practice.

I'm widely read but it's not one I've come across before. I should have twigged it wasn't your own creation : while I can imagine you summoning up "parasitic", "pejorative" is a bit of a stretch. You've been fed it from somewhere as another thing to hurl willy-nilly at critics of Zionism.

You'll have noticed that associating me, a critic of Zionism, with the "parasitic pejorative" technique is itself use of the parasitic pejorative.

Nor evidence that I habitually engage in parasitic pejoratives.

That would be down to my anti-Zionism, presumably. Which I have justified pretty extensively. It's not a position I started with - far from it, in 1967 I was all for Israel like everybody else, they were our side - but my position has formed since I learned the reality of it.

Which, you may have noticed, I am pretty conversant with. Not that we talk about that much in-between the stuff about me.
OK... fair enough. I retract the perceived implication that you use parasitic pejoratives as a rhetorical technique.
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Old 27th May 2016, 02:42 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
You've clearly been told they talked and wrote about the Jewish State as a refuge, unless you've just made it up yourself. Which they didn't. You've clearly been told they were prepared to share its territory with non-Jews, and again they weren't. It's all very explicit.
That is incredibly presumptions CapelDodger. You are ascribing thoughts and ideas to me that are simply not true. How can you possibly justify the above post ? Or should these posts be split out into an ESP and Mind-reading thread ?

Quote:
He was referring to an instinctive abhorrence of racial mixing, which is different from xenophobia. The point of a Jewish State was to separate Jews from other races and other races from Jews. This makes a nonsense of the idea that Palestinians could have had a place in the Jewish State but they messed it up.
An interesting extrapolation, CapelDodger; but the quotation you cited does not support your assertion.

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The continuity is in the World Zionist Organisation, which still exists and still embodies the same principles established 120 years ago....
Yes, and so does the Flat Earth Society. And like the WZO, it has increasingly reduced influence on daily life.

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... More practically, the continuity runs from the early leadership to Ben Gurion's socialists to todays Likud with no change in principle. The Palestinians were in the way and had to go.
That is your interpretation, but I don't think you have demonstrated its validity in any objective way.

Quote:
The split in Zionism was between Ben Gurion's Socialists and the followers of Jabotinsky, who explicitly recognised the necessity of expulsion. Jabotinsky was the inspiration of the Irgun terrorist organisation, from which Likud eventually emerged to usurp the Socialists.

You seem to be unaware that the subject of Zionism and the nature of the Zionist State is very much alive in Israel today. It's getting something a cult feel to it that's been developing for a decade and more; the state now gives prizes for Zionist Art, for instance, which is kinda creepy. You should check into it. The people becomes identified with the State : the State becomes identified with an ideology : the ideology becomes identified with a leader. Which, of course, is where it currently falls down in Israel.

I'm using the term in the modern sense, and it's important for people to recognise that Zionism is racist by intent. Zionism without race - the Jewish Race - is purest Zen. Israel is the embodiment of Zionism.
If Zionism is racist, and Israel is the embodiment of Zionism (I disagree with both postulates), then does that mean that the State of Israel is racist ?

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There's a causal link between the requirement for the Palestinians to be gone and the fact that hundreds of thousands of them were gone by the time the Zionist assault ran out of steam and the US called time.
No; that is a logical fallacy. There MAY be a link, but you have not demonstrated any such. You are relying purely on a variant of post hoc ergo proctor hoc, and are ascribing unproven motivations to actions and events.
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They were driven out, by violence and intimidation, quite deliberately, not just during the fighting but for years afterwards. And they were shot as terrorists if they tried to retun home.
So you completely disregard the fact that the largest (by orders of magnitude) exodus happened when - and ONLY when - the joint Arab armies attacked ? There was no mass exodus from Israel either before, or afterwards.
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Old 27th May 2016, 02:02 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Israel would barely be in the news if it wasn't for all of the antisemites in the world using anti-Zionism as a way to make their antisemitism politically palatable.
So the anti-Semites control the news coverage, and/or media companies are obligated to supply anti-Zionist journalism in order to feed the masses' anti-Semitic hunger? This is all just a short-term goal for a kind of final solution...? OK, that's one explanation. It's not a very good explanation. In fact, it's borderline retarded, but let's see if there are other ways to account for disproportionate coverage of Israel.*

Self-centered bias. There's an old journalism joke about a devastating earthquake in China, and an English businessman is among the tens of thousands dead. The local headline reads, "Oxford Man Perishes in Earthquake." U.S. involvement dictates U.S. coverage. We are Israel's biggest supplier of aid and diplomatic support.

Inter-racial bias. There are lots of cases of intra-racial violence, but what makes the news are cases where a white guy kills a black guy or vice-versa. We love those stories. In terms of international affairs, what's important is that white people are involved. In other words, the self-centered bias is stronger. As I've said before, in the case of the middle-east, as far as Americans are concerned, Jews are the white people. They're a lot more "like us" than the dirty Arab horde. These biases not only reflect the coverage but our policies.

Now we can apply our explanations to another case: Why was South Africa in the news so much thirty years ago? Because it was a stalking horse for anti-white racism? Communist propaganda?

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You're talking about a conflict which, going back 100 years, has taken fewer lives than the Syrian civil war did in one year. You're talking about a conflict which involved the displacement of fewer than 600,000 people 70 years ago, at a time when tens of millions were forcibly resettled to make way for the new world order. The Arab-Israeli conflict should be a nothingburger. And it would have been resolved decades ago, if it wasn't for the fact that one side just happens to be identified with an ethnic group that most people don't like.
So how do you account for wall-to-wall world-wide coverage of deaths of almost 3,000 Americans? Because it's the victims who matter. Despite the fact Palestinians are far more likely to be victims, including innocent victims, U.S. media coverage doesn't portray it that way. How many people remember a suicide-bomber who struck a pizzeria over 20 years ago? Can they be as specific when it comes to even greater atrocities against Palestinians? You're so disconnected from reality that you think anti-Semitism not only accounts for the existence of this coverage, but you think the coverage is anti-Israel.

The real irony is that people have long-used Israel-hugging to obscure their anti-Semitism (just read a phone conversation between President Nixon and Billy Graham). The white nationalists who support Trump seethe at the hypocrisy of Jews who "support open-borders for 'murica, but are 'Jews only' when it comes to their own country."

Leftists oppose Zionism because it's basically seen as another form of European-colonialism, not because they're anti-Semites. Stop being ridiculous.

*Notice here disproportionate coverage of "Israel." Not "Israel/Palestine." There is no Palestine.
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Old 27th May 2016, 02:21 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Let's just say that I completely disagree. Israel would barely be in the news if it wasn't for all of the antisemites in the world using anti-Zionism as a way to make their antisemitism politically palatable. You're talking about a conflict which, going back 100 years, has taken fewer lives than the Syrian civil war did in one year. You're talking about a conflict which involved the displacement of fewer than 600,000 people 70 years ago, at a time when tens of millions were forcibly resettled to make way for the new world order. The Arab-Israeli conflict should be a nothingburger. And it would have been resolved decades ago, if it wasn't for the fact that one side just happens to be identified with an ethnic group that most people don't like.
Another incredibly ignorant statement.

You need to have to go through checkpoints to get to work
You need to drive hours out of your way to work or visit family.
You need to see, feel and sense the presence of the walls
You need to have your home bull dozed.
You need to do some honest research to understand the reality of the situation, not rely on the propagandists.

Israel must have a safe and secure homeland.
So must the Palestinians.
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Old 27th May 2016, 02:57 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Another incredibly ignorant statement.

You need to have to go through checkpoints to get to work
You need to drive hours out of your way to work or visit family.
You need to see, feel and sense the presence of the walls
You need to have your home bull dozed.
You need to do some honest research to understand the reality of the situation, not rely on the propagandists.

Israel must have a safe and secure homeland.
So must the Palestinians.
Which they won't have as long as HAMAS is in charge...........

I dislike Bibi and his Settlement policies a lot,but,frankly, in many ways HAMAS is the best ally Bibi has ever had.....
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Old 27th May 2016, 03:06 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post

<snip>
I'm not going to respond point by point, because I've been there done that with people who are far more articulate and knowledgeable than you. I'll just point out that I never said that all people who are anti-Israel are antisemitic. I never would say it because it's not true. I am not surprised at all that, for example, somebody of Palestinian or Arab heritage (same thing really) would be anti-Israel, and although that hatred might engender antisemitic feelings and might manifest as antisemitic behavior, antisemitism, i.e. discomfort with Jews qua Jews, or Jewish nationalism qua Jewish nationalism, is not the original motivation. As for heightened media scrutiny, you are clearly confusing chicken and egg. There is media coverage because the conflict is a long-festering sore that the whole world feels it has a vested interest in. But the conflict is a long-festering sore solely because of the world's interest (the Palestinians would have given up, made peace, or assimilated into their host countries decades ago without worldwide support), and the world's interest is driven mainly by a desire to stick it to the Jews. In Europe, I suppose, there is also a sort of perverse guilt that drives their antisemitism. That may be the main sentiment in Germany actually, where any moral failings they can blame on Israel mitigates their moral culpability for the Holocaust. After all, if they can smear the victims of the Holocaust as oppressors maybe the Holocaust wasn't so bad after all.

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So how do you account for wall-to-wall world-wide coverage of deaths of almost 3,000 Americans? Because it's the victims who matter.
First, 9/11 was spectacular. Second, the US is the most powerful country in the world, and it affected our foreign and domestic policy in dramatic ways. Third, your point detracts from your argument. In fact, Palestinian deaths are often far more noteworthy than Israeli deaths, or even American deaths, especially in the pages of the New York Times. And yet, by your reasoning, Palestinian deaths shouldn't matter to Western media, and certainly not the US media. Arab deaths in general sure don't. There have probably been 500,000 Arab deaths in Syria over the last five years, and we usually don't hear much about them. Why do Syrian deaths matter less than Palestinians? Is it a consequence of Stalin's epigram about how one death is tragic and a million is a statistic? Perhaps, to some extent.

Quote:
Despite the fact Palestinians are far more likely to be victims, including innocent victims, U.S. media coverage doesn't portray it that way. How many people remember a suicide-bomber who struck a pizzeria over 20 years ago? Can they be as specific when it comes to even greater atrocities against Palestinians?
Greater atrocities against Palestinians? What the hell are you talking about? Greater than intentionally blowing up families in a pizzeria? Something that 98% of Americans don't remember, by the way. I only do because you reminded me. I certainly can't remember more than a handful of the hundreds of terror attacks against Israeli civilians since the Oslo Accords.

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You're so disconnected from reality that you think anti-Semitism not only accounts for the existence of this coverage, but you think the coverage is anti-Israel.
It is in the UK. It is in most of Europe. It is in the Arab world. And it is in the New York Times. Disgustingly so.

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The real irony is that people have long-used Israel-hugging to obscure their anti-Semitism (just read a phone conversation between President Nixon and Billy Graham). The white nationalists who support Trump seethe at the hypocrisy of Jews who "support open-borders for 'murica, but are 'Jews only' when it comes to their own country."
Well, to tell you the truth, those white supremacists have a point, but they are not Israel-hugging. Most white supremacists are very anti-Israel, as are some paleocons (e.g. Justin Raimondo, Pat Buchanan). However, the right-wing in the US, in general, has become very pro-Jew. They are pro-Western values, and they have come around to seeing the Jews, on the whole, as a very powerful force for pro-Western values in the world. Perhaps that's why the left has been growing disenchanted with the Jews since Israel turned away from its socialist roots.

Quote:
Leftists oppose Zionism because it's basically seen as another form of European-colonialism, not because they're anti-Semites. Stop being ridiculous.
Some do, yes. That is certainly an important motivation. But it pales in comparison to antisemitism, unless you take the meta-view (which I think is reasonable) that Jews are essentially cultural colonialists wherever they end up. Of course, I think viewing the Jews as cultural colonialists, is basically what antisemitism is and has been for at least a thousand years.
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Old 27th May 2016, 03:09 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Another incredibly ignorant statement.

You need to have to go through checkpoints to get to work
You need to drive hours out of your way to work or visit family.
You need to see, feel and sense the presence of the walls
You need to have your home bull dozed.
You need to do some honest research to understand the reality of the situation, not rely on the propagandists.

Israel must have a safe and secure homeland.
So must the Palestinians.
Oh please. If Palestinians turned away from their death cult culture, there would be peace within months. Do you really think that there is anything more than a tiny minority of Israeli Jews who want to oppress Palestinians? Those trappings of "oppression" are security measures. And without them, more innocent Israelis would die. That's simply reality. I guess you might say that reality has a pro-Israel bias, right?
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Old 28th May 2016, 07:45 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by DavidJames View Post
Another incredibly ignorant statement.

You need to have to go through checkpoints to get to work
You need to drive hours out of your way to work or visit family.
You need to see, feel and sense the presence of the walls
You need to have your home bull dozed.
You need to do some honest research to understand the reality of the situation, not rely on the propagandists.

Israel must have a safe and secure homeland.
So must the Palestinians.
The problem is, one's safety and security comes at the expense of the other. Do you really believe that Israel, who happens to have Assad, Da'esh and Iraq for neighbours, is going to want to make themselves less secure?
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Old 28th May 2016, 09:53 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Oh please. If Palestinians turned away from their death cult culture, there would be peace within months. Do you really think that there is anything more than a tiny minority of Israeli Jews who want to oppress Palestinians? Those trappings of "oppression" are security measures. And without them, more innocent Israelis would die. That's simply reality. I guess you might say that reality has a pro-Israel bias, right?
Gee...do ya' think Zionism and it's associated land theft and murder just might be somewhat responsible for the Palestinian's craziness?
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Old 28th May 2016, 11:32 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I'll just point out that I never said that all people who are anti-Israel are antisemitic.
It's great that you do not think ALL of the people who are anti-Israel are anti-Semitic. Very enlightened of you.

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As for heightened media scrutiny, you are clearly confusing chicken and egg. There is media coverage because the conflict is a long-festering sore that the whole world feels it has a vested interest in.
Pathetic. Of course(!) there's media coverage because it's long been part of the news cycle, but why is it in the cycle in the first place? You say it's because the "world" has a strong desire to "stick it to the Jews." And they stuck it to the Jews all those years ago by... recognizing Israeli statehood. You have nothing to back up your claims.

Let's also digress for a moment to discuss the logic of collective action: small, but intensely motivated groups tend to dominate in pluralistic societies, or as the saying goes, "concentrated benefits, dispersed costs." The "world" is not nearly as obsessed over "sticking it to the Jews" as you think, but your ignorance-slash-paranoia is a strength. By terrifying Israel-huggers that the anti-Zionists/anti-Semites are out to get ze Jews, the Israel lobby becomes that much more effective.

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First, 9/11 was spectacular. Second, the US is the most powerful country in the world, and it affected our foreign and domestic policy in dramatic ways.
I'm pleased to see you're now shying away from straight body counts.

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Third, your point detracts from your argument. In fact, Palestinian deaths are often far more noteworthy than Israeli deaths, or even American deaths, especially in the pages of the New York Times.
Good Lord, you are living in a delicately constructed fantasy world. I'm sure you can find analysis about this from FAIR, but it's too silly to argue here.

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And yet, by your reasoning, Palestinian deaths shouldn't matter to Western media, and certainly not the US media. Arab deaths in general sure don't. There have probably been 500,000 Arab deaths in Syria over the last five years, and we usually don't hear much about them. Why do Syrian deaths matter less than Palestinians? Is it a consequence of Stalin's epigram about how one death is tragic and a million is a statistic? Perhaps, to some extent.
See, you're reduced to this mind-set because you're a rank conspiracy monger. Suppose I have two students, Aimee and Arnold. I think Aimee is loathsome (just look at the spelling of her name) and Arnold is awesome. I'm generally unwilling to grant extensions on assignments, but Arnold claims his grandfather died recently, so he would like more time. I think Arnold's awesome, so he gets an extension. Aimee comes to me later that day, same story, so I grant her an extension. Does this show that I am without bias? Only superficially. If Aimee had come to me first, I would have politely told her to **** off. If Arnold came to me second, I'd inform him that I cannot grant an extension because it would be unfair.

The thing about reason is that it has the power to take us places we did not initially intend. If humans are good at generating persuasive arguments, it's probably because it served our self-interest, but the stronger the argument -- the more disinterested it is -- the greater the potential to bite us in the back.

I am no longer a regular reader of the NYT, but when I did, Palestinian deaths were not given the same attention as Jewish deaths. Moreover, as I believe FAIR has pointed out, Palestinian deaths were put in the context of a cycle of violence -- as reprisals for suicide bombings -- whereas Jewish deaths were not put in the same context. Anyway, it's really great that Americans overwhelmingly support Jews over Palestinians in spite of our anti-Zionist media. Testifies to our grate intelligents.

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Well, to tell you the truth, those white supremacists have a point, but they are not Israel-hugging.
You're combining separate sentences. I am not inclined to describe white nationalists as Israel-huggers (and I'd probably never say white supremacists love Israel).
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Old 28th May 2016, 04:06 PM   #261
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[quote=Roofgardener;11300450]That is incredibly presumptions CapelDodger. You are ascribing thoughts and ideas to me that are simply not true. How can you possibly justify the above post ? Or should these posts be split out into an ESP and Mind-reading thread ? [/thquote]
You have consistently presented an absolutely orthodox view of the Zionist enterprise, which you did not invent yourself. It's something you picked up from "millions of messages", as Mycroft put it, and includes such ideas as the Jewish State being intended as a refuge for European Jews, that Palestinians would have been welcome in the Jewish State but refused the opportunity, that the local population has always been the aggressor while the Zionists merely defended themselves out of Europe into possession of so much of the Palestinians property, and that peace is on offer from an Israeli government committed to preventing a two-state solution.

It is, as I said, clear that these are the messages you've picked up and accepted over your lifetime, and never questioned.

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An interesting extrapolation, CapelDodger; but the quotation you cited does not support your assertion.
I cited no quotation, I stated that Herzl defended German anti-semitism as an instinctive response to the threat of miscegenation, just as, in his belief, Jews had the same response. He did this on numerous occasions; the man was a journalist and propagandist for the Zionist cause so there's no shortage of material.

Of course, the "threat" of racial contamination is socially conditioned, not instinctive, but that was Herzl's view and is a commonly-held view in Israel today, voiced most often by the increasingly influential Orthodox population.


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Yes, and so does the Flat Earth Society. And like the WZO, it has increasingly reduced influence on daily life.
The WZO was the chosen audience for Netenyahu's appalling race-baiting speech recently, when he tried to shift the blame for the Holocaust away from the Christian world and onto a Palestinian. He clearly thinks it's a beast worth feeding.

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That is your interpretation, but I don't think you have demonstrated its validity in any objective way.
You will really have to do better than that. As I said, in practical terms the Zionist leadership is what matters, and there has been continuity in their Palestinian policy. That policy being, they have to go.


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If Zionism is racist, and Israel is the embodiment of Zionism (I disagree with both postulates), then does that mean that the State of Israel is racist ?
Of course. It's the Jewish State, for the Jewish Race.

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No; that is a logical fallacy. There MAY be a link, but you have not demonstrated any such. You are relying purely on a variant of post hoc ergo proctor hoc, and are ascribing unproven motivations to actions and events.
I most certainly have not been arguing post hoc ergo propter hoc; I've been arguing Occam's Razor. If the plan was to remove the Palestinian population and create a Jewish State and a Jewish State is created with most of the Palestinian population removed, one should not seek a multitude of outside influences to explain why the plan failed but the desired outcome was achieved.

What you and yours end up arguing is that, since the Zionists did no wrong but the Palestinians ended up very wronged, they either did it to themselves or other Arabs did it to them. And the Palestinians have kept hitting themselves ever since. Why are they hitting themselves?

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So you completely disregard the fact that the largest (by orders of magnitude) exodus happened when - and ONLY when - the joint Arab armies attacked ? There was no mass exodus from Israel either before, or afterwards.
The war started when the British withdrew, after suffering many years of Zionist terrorism directed to that end, and the Zionists could start doing it to the Palestinians as planned. Which they did to the extent they proved capable of.

To put an end to this : in 1998, under a fifty-year rule, Hagganah/IDF archives from 1948 were released - millions of documents. In it is detailed the sytematic expulsion of Palestinians from secured areas as soon as operational considerations allow - which is to say, when a road is no longer needed by the military, fill it with the ethnically cleansed. Hundreds of thousands of people were involved; as we know from Nuremberg that sort of thing is a serious administrative task which generates a mountain of paperwork. And there it is. All that stuff about radio messages and running away from invading Arab armies so they could come back and Kill All The Jews is so mich bollocks, and frankly bollocks on the face of it.

A number of historians have dealt with the subject matter; I suggest you read Benny Morris, who acknowledges the reality but will also tell you why it was justified, so no heavy intellectual lifting required. It boils down to "Without the expulsions the Jewish State would not have been possible", which is, of course, something I've pointed out myself. Another reason for thinking Occam's Razor applies : with the Palestinians the Jewish State would have a non-Jewish majority which would vote the idea down. They had to go, and in a large measure they did. Not large enough, though.
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Old 28th May 2016, 04:28 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I am not inclined to describe white nationalists as Israel-huggers (and I'd probably never say white supremacists love Israel).
When they've dealt with the Muslims they will come back for the Christ-killers, no doubt about that.

They came very close to hugging Sharon, the kind of leader they wish they could come up with. It's hard to see anybody hugging Netenyahu.
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Old 28th May 2016, 05:33 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Oh please. If Palestinians turned away from their death cult culture, there would be peace within months.
A peace within months? That's a remarkable proposition.

A peace would have to get through the Knesset, and it's hard to see that happening in months. It's hard to see it happening at all, given that Netenyahu's reaching ever further to the right and the religious to maintain his position.

There are two versions of peace available : a single state and a two-state. The first would include all inhabitants of the Historic Claim and have a non-Jewish majority. Unlikely in the extreme to pass the Knesset ever. The other a two-state solution, the rejection of which is a foundation principle of the dominant Likud Party and sworn policy, on his mother's grave and every other Jewish mother's grave, of prime minister Netenyahu.

These months of which you speak : could you give us an upper figure? Less than a thousand? More?

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Do you really think that there is anything more than a tiny minority of Israeli Jews who want to oppress Palestinians? Those trappings of "oppression" are security measures. And without them, more innocent Israelis would die. That's simply reality. I guess you might say that reality has a pro-Israel bias, right?
Most Jewish Israelis bear no responsibility for the existence of Israel. They're as stuck with the situation they were born into the same as we all are, and they've had as much influence on it as the rest of us in their lives, which is to say, not much. The responsibility is on the people of previous generations who created the situation in pursuit of their vanity project.

These "security measures" are what might have been predicted 120 years ago when the Zionist project was launched, with the intention of displacing the population of Palestine and replacing it with a Jewish State of a distinctly European nature to finally prove to Europeans with their own states that Jews were just as good as them.

(My words, a chap called Asher Ginzberg's sentiments, expressed more eloquently.)

There was no Palestinian conflict before Zionism. Jews and Arabs lived in Palestine together and nobody even thought of it as Palestine. Even that is a foreign concept.

A peculiarity of Israel is that it's proud of being alien to its environment, because the environment is backward and they represent the modern. Their similarity, however superficial, to the West and the difference of everyone surrounding them is something they celebrate, while whining that they aren't a Western colony and everybody's so unfair to them.

It was Zionism - an Ashkenazi vanity project - that destroyed the Middle Eastern Jewish culture and history which stretched back to the Babylonian exile, and Zionists don't care.
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Old 28th May 2016, 05:58 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
OK... fair enough. I retract the perceived implication that you use parasitic pejoratives as a rhetorical technique.
"Perceived implication"?

It was a direct accusation. Forced to withdraw it you make an even bigger arse of yourself in the process. Wriggling is only attrative is certain situations, and this ain't one of them.

Lessons to take away : reading something in the playbook is not sufficient reason for applying it in a particular case, especially when the evidence is available to all; and friends like Ziggurat bringing Dunning-Krueger into the conversation are friends you can do without. That thing about adjectives? Were I of a vindictive nature it's something I could really gnaw on.
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Old 29th May 2016, 01:11 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
That is incredibly presumptions CapelDodger. You are ascribing thoughts and ideas to me that are simply not true. How can you possibly justify the above post ? Or should these posts be split out into an ESP and Mind-reading thread ?
You have consistently presented an absolutely orthodox view of the Zionist enterprise, which you did not invent yourself. It's something you picked up from "millions of messages", as Mycroft put it, and includes such ideas as the Jewish State being intended as a refuge for European Jews, that Palestinians would have been welcome in the Jewish State but refused the opportunity, that the local population has always been the aggressor while the Zionists merely defended themselves out of Europe into possession of so much of the Palestinians property, and that peace is on offer from an Israeli government committed to preventing a two-state solution.

It is, as I said, clear that these are the messages you've picked up and accepted over your lifetime, and never questioned.
We're still in the realms of telepathy here CapelDodger, because I don't believe I have ever presented any views on the "Zionist enterprise". I usually just make comments on what I believe to be biased or innacurate comments about Israel. Could you cite any posts I have made that lead you to think this way ?

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I cited no quotation, I stated that Herzl defended German anti-semitism as an instinctive response to the threat of miscegenation, just as, in his belief, Jews had the same response. He did this on numerous occasions; the man was a journalist and propagandist for the Zionist cause so there's no shortage of material.
Actually... you are correct. You didn't directly cite him - my bad. However, what you said was.....
Originally Posted by CapelDodger
Are you aware that Herzl justified anti-semitism as the natural human response to an alien presence?
I don't see any reference to miscegenation in that, merely an observation about a human tendancy towards clannishness and xenophobia.

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Of course, the "threat" of racial contamination is socially conditioned, not instinctive, but that was Herzl's view and is a commonly-held view in Israel today, voiced most often by the increasingly influential Orthodox population.
Two thoughts; firstly, what makes you think that the beliefe that miscegenation is socially conditioned is a commonly held belief in Israel today ?
And secondly, what makes you think that the Orthodox population is becoming increasingly influential ?

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The WZO was the chosen audience for Netenyahu's appalling race-baiting speech recently, when he tried to shift the blame for the Holocaust away from the Christian world and onto a Palestinian. He clearly thinks it's a beast worth feeding.
Sounds like the WZO and Netenyahu deserve each other. Nevertheless, the WZO is declining in importance when it comes to the governance of Israel, and has been declining for a long time. Netenyahu - as prime minister - would make speeches to all SORTS of organisations. He made a speech to the US Congress recently... is THAT a "beast that needs feeding" ?

Hmmm... actually.....perhaps !

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You will really have to do better than that. As I said, in practical terms the Zionist leadership is what matters, and there has been continuity in their Palestinian policy. That policy being, they have to go.
The "Zionist Leadership" ? Who are they ?

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Of course. It's the Jewish State, for the Jewish Race.
If Israel is a racist state, could you give examples of where the structures of the state are racist ? (in comparison - say - to those of the UK ? ).

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I most certainly have not been arguing post hoc ergo propter hoc; I've been arguing Occam's Razor. If the plan was to remove the Palestinian population and create a Jewish State and a Jewish State is created with most of the Palestinian population removed, one should not seek a multitude of outside influences to explain why the plan failed but the desired outcome was achieved.
Occams Razor only applies in the case of two equally likely explanations, where available evidence has been exhausted without being able to differentiate between the two, which I don't think we have here ?

I'm also kinda confused with the idea that a hypothetical plan's desired outcome could be achieved, and yet the plan be regarded as a failure ?

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What you and yours end up arguing is that, since the Zionists did no wrong but the Palestinians ended up very wronged, they either did it to themselves or other Arabs did it to them. And the Palestinians have kept hitting themselves ever since. Why are they hitting themselves?
And yet curiously, I've never argued that. I merely pointed out a seemingly causual connection between the mass exodus, and the invasion by the Arab armies.

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The war started when the British withdrew.....
No.. the war started when the Arab armies invaded.

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To put an end to this : in 1998, under a fifty-year rule, Hagganah/IDF archives from 1948 were released - millions of documents. In it is detailed the sytematic expulsion of Palestinians from secured areas as soon as operational considerations allow ....
Most interesting. I don't think I'll try and browse through "millions of documents", however. In regards Benny Morris; which of his books do you have in mind ?

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... Another reason for thinking Occam's Razor applies : with the Palestinians the Jewish State would have a non-Jewish majority which would vote the idea down. They had to go, and in a large measure they did. Not large enough, though.
And yet - curiously - despite the Brain-rotting Zionist Racist Arab-Hating Baby-Boiling nature of the Fascist Zionist State, the Arab population of Israel is increasing, and emmigration is minimal.

Looks like the Zionist's plans have failed AGAIN ? They just CAN'T seem to get it right, can they ?

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Old 29th May 2016, 01:25 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
"Perceived implication"?

It was a direct accusation. .....
Oh no it wasn't !
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Old 30th May 2016, 04:42 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
We're still in the realms of telepathy here CapelDodger, because I don't believe I have ever presented any views on the "Zionist enterprise". I usually just make comments on what I believe to be biased or innacurate comments about Israel. Could you cite any posts I have made that lead you to think this way ?
You get what you think is accurate information from somewhere, and it has always been completely conventional. That hasn't happened by coincidence.

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Actually... you are correct. You didn't directly cite him - my bad. However, what you said was.....

I don't see any reference to miscegenation in that, merely an observation about a human tendancy towards clannishness and xenophobia.
Rather than depend on one short sentence of mine on the subject you should really look at the things Herzl actually said, if you're actually interested in the truth. Herzl was not referring to clannishness or xenophobia: he specifically links the "threat" of the alien presence to its invisibilty. Obvious Jews were not the problem, it was Jews like him, indistinguishable from any other European middle-class conservative gentleman, that Germans were, rightly in his view, concerned about.


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Two thoughts; firstly, what makes you think that the beliefe that miscegenation is socially conditioned is a commonly held belief in Israel today ?
I was referring to the view that miscegenation is instinctively repulsive

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And secondly, what makes you think that the Orthodox population is becoming increasingly influential ?


Sounds like the WZO and Netenyahu deserve each other. Nevertheless, the WZO is declining in importance when it comes to the governance of Israel, and has been declining for a long time.
You profess to not be aware of the growing Orthodox influence of the last couple of decades and then claim an understanding of the WZO's role in Israel's arcane power structure. Perhaps you do simply produce your own material from some fundamental source.

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Netenyahu - as prime minister - would make speeches to all SORTS of organisations. He made a speech to the US Congress recently... is THAT a "beast that needs feeding" ?
The US Republican Party is worth keeping sweet, and of course such a stage embiggens a very small man. And a very small country.


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The "Zionist Leadership" ? Who are they ?
That is a ridiculous question. Israel was not achieved by consensus. Nation building requires secure leadership, and the Zionist organisation was designed with that in mind. At no point in Zionist history is the leadership not easily identifiable.

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If Israel is a racist state, could you give examples of where the structures of the state are racist ? (in comparison - say - to those of the UK ? ).
The Jewish State is conceptually racist. It is a state for Jews.


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Occams Razor only applies in the case of two equally likely explanations, where available evidence has been exhausted without being able to differentiate between the two, which I don't think we have here ?

I'm also kinda confused with the idea that a hypothetical plan's desired outcome could be achieved, and yet the plan be regarded as a failure ?
I said much of the plan was achieved, and in the territory captured by the Zionists almost all of it was. The failure was in not capturing the rest of the Historic Claim in the initial offensive.

Your "equally likely" explanation is that this was not achieved by implementation of the plan but by a bizarre coincidence of Arab missteps which led to the same outcome. I think it's on you to make that case, not me mine. Especially given all the documentation detailing the execution of the plan.

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And yet curiously, I've never argued that. I merely pointed out a seemingly causual connection between the mass exodus, and the invasion by the Arab armies.
You didn't say it was causal, you said it was "seemingly" causal. This is not great sophistry.





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Most interesting. I don't think I'll try and browse through "millions of documents", however. In regards Benny Morris; which of his books do you have in mind ?
Try Amazon and your public library.



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And yet - curiously - despite the Brain-rotting Zionist Racist Arab-Hating Baby-Boiling nature of the Fascist Zionist State, the Arab population of Israel is increasing, and emmigration is minimal.
Determined chaps, aren't they? Some may prefer "intransigent".

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Looks like the Zionist's plans have failed AGAIN ? They just CAN'T seem to get it right, can they ?
Apparently not, since Israel today is not at all what was intended, nor does it show any sign of becoming so.
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Old 30th May 2016, 04:44 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
No.. the war started when the Arab armies invaded.

...

Oh no it wasn't !
This stuff can only be described as pusillanimous.
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Old 31st May 2016, 02:21 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
You get what you think is accurate information from somewhere, and it has always been completely conventional. That hasn't happened by coincidence.
Indeed, because the jooos control the media, don't you know?
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Old 31st May 2016, 06:51 AM   #270
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That was an impressive tour-de-force of avoiding questions, CapelDodger.

If I was to be mischievous, I would just point out ONE part of your response....

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
......
.....Rather than depend on one short sentence of mine on the subject you should really look at the things Herzl actually said, if you're actually interested in the truth....
So you are suggesting that the comments that YOU made are NOT the truth ?

Good job I'm not mischievous.
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Old 31st May 2016, 01:13 PM   #271
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Poor old Uri Avnery is running out of explanations for the current behaviour of Netanyahoo, appointing the fascist Lieberman as Minister of "defense" after the ugly incident that led to the resignation of the former one. What Happened to Netanyahu?

Originally Posted by Uri Avnery
In order to [form a new party with the sane elements of all strains and get away with the Likud insanity regime], there is no need to wait for the Messiah, to dream. It is possible and necessary to stand and take action tomorrow morning. The alternative is too terrifying.

Likely the messiah reference is totally innocent of any knowledge of the possibility that the events make sense in light of people who think they actively make prophecy happen to invoke "the Messiah". Too much Illuminatus!? Hopefully.
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:01 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Indeed, because the jooos control the media, don't you know?
You have some strange ideas. Nobody controls the media, not even the anti-semites.

I doubt you regard your view of Zionist and Israeli history as unconventional, nor different from Roofgarden's. You both got it from somewhere, and not from study of the subject. As Mycroft explained such views come to us through "millions of messages" and form subconsciously. (Mycroft, incidentally, also holds the conventional view.)

My views on Israel were of that sort in 1967, and entirely conventional. Only when I began looking into the subject did that change. It was a good lesson in recognising the difference between culturally conditioned beliefs and actual knowledge.
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:27 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
That was an impressive tour-de-force of avoiding questions, CapelDodger.

If I was to be mischievous, I would just point out ONE part of your response....



So you are suggesting that the comments that YOU made are NOT the truth ?

Good job I'm not mischievous.
Please indulge. If your use of the flaccid "So ..." ploy is a example of your capapibilities I have no concerns at all. What I said was a precis of Herzl's many statements on the matter; the best you could do in response was try to pick a hole in the precis. You will have to look for yourself if you're not going to take my word for it; who knows, you might find out I'm making it up, and wouldn't that be a triumph?

If I reference a particular Benny Morris book, or any book for that matter, it's all too likely that you'll look it up on Amazon and criticise the blurb on the grounds of what the book might actually say.

Having said that,
http://www.iupress.indiana.edu/produ...ucts_id=807525

I take it you've avoided learning anything about the subject, given the ease of the "So ..." ploy and the fact that learning is hard. Sometimes uncomfortably so. You might have to face up to the fact that the Zionists did indeed rob and expel hundreds of thousands of Palestinians with prior intent, and would have done the same to many more had they not been stopped.

Neither you nor Ziggurat care to contest that fact, nor the fact that the Jewish State was not conceived as a refuge from persecution but to safeguard racial purity and due deference to one's proper Community Leaders. Which is pretty much what it is. There's far less Jewish miscegenation in Israel than there is in, say, New York or London. And a remarkable group of Community Leaders are in charge.
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:52 PM   #274
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CapelDodger, I think people who have read the recent pages of this thread and have a genuine interest in finding out more about the topic have been given a lot of opportunities to start learning by what you have written. Thanks for that. And they don't have to feel stupid or anything because the propaganda campaign to leave the US citizens in the dark about what they are supporting in the Middle East has been extremely sophisticated and successful. There's a new film out called "The Occupation of the American Mind: Israel’s Public Relations War In The United States" which, judged by the excellent radio interview with its producer I've listened to some days ago, is very relevant and educational.
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Old 1st June 2016, 03:58 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Poor old Uri Avnery is running out of explanations for the current behaviour of Netanyahoo, appointing the fascist Lieberman as Minister of "defense" after the ugly incident that led to the resignation of the former one. What Happened to Netanyahu?

From that piece
Quote:
"The proposal, as I understand it: The young Knesset members of the Zionist Union will arise – Merav Michaeli, Stav Shaffir, Omer Bar-Lev, Itzik Shmuli, Miki Rosenthal and the others – and leave their party, which is nothing but a living corpse, and establish a new, young and energetic party. They will be joined by other MKs who see the iceberg approaching, such as Orli Levi-Abekasis. They will also invite the support of Ya’alon, Gabi Ashkenazi and MK Benny Begin. They will immediately establish a new faction in the Knesset, raise the flag, write a platform that will put an emphasis on what is shared and not what separates: a banner of peace, democracy, justice, social partnership and purity of arms."
Which will be taken as a declaration of war on the Jewish Race in places which are, to a large degree, outwith the control of the State. Even if such a grouping could capture the government they face rejectionist enclaves, perhaps better armed than they'd expect.

The future of power in Israel is on the right so Netenyahu keeps moving that way; Lieberman is preferable to yet more religious influence. His weakness is palpable.


Quote:
Likely the messiah reference is totally innocent of any knowledge of the possibility that the events make sense in light of people who think they actively make prophecy happen to invoke "the Messiah". Too much Illuminatus!? Hopefully.
Let's not confuse Netenyahu with any sort of spiritual person. Apocalypse is very much in the air in that part of the world, though, and in the land of the Southern Baptists. Some of that has to leak in. Heck, as I look out on the world it's creeping into me.
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Old 1st June 2016, 04:11 PM   #276
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Thanks, Childlike Empress.

Sophisticated it no doubt was, but it really wasn't difficult when one side was white and a Free Worlder while the other was dusky and of the Soviet Block. Now, of course, Israel is being on the Not-Muslim side.

Actually, casting Paul Newman in Exodus pretty much did the job.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 10:19 AM   #277
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This looks promising.

Israeli activists push for peace with Palestinians
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Old 2nd June 2016, 10:27 AM   #278
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This is happening tomorrow, June 3.

John Kerry to Attend Israeli-Palestinian Peace Conference in France
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“Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 10:48 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Maya22 View Post
When the news is "Hamas activists push for peace", then there will be hope.

This is akin to British pacifists criticizing Churchill while reaching out to the Nazis, who happily encourage their delusions.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 02:37 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Maya22 View Post
The cynic in me (which is essentially all of me) sees in this another possible explanation for Lieberman's recent appointment as Defence Minister. Time will tell, and probably not much of it - a rejectionist provocation launched from Gaza is all too likely.
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