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Tags general discussion , Israel issues , Israel-Palestine conflict , Palestine issues , US-Israel relations

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Old 3rd June 2016, 02:40 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by Maya22 View Post
Most likely because Netanyahu and Hamas feel as though Iraq and Syria are having all the fun in the ME.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 02:42 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This is akin to British pacifists criticizing Churchill while reaching out to the Nazis, who happily encourage their delusions.
By invading Poland? The Nazis must have made an error in translation - perhaps there's no German word for "pacifist".
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Old 3rd June 2016, 03:36 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Maya22 View Post
The Israeli Peace Movement is indefatigable, and deserves great respect. For all their efforts in the past, though, things are as they are, and their work is far from done.

Quote:
'Hamdan [of Hamas] added that he senses "unsettled feelings" among Israeli citizens because of the far-right positions the Israeli government has taken. Directing his message to ordinary Israelis, Hamdan said the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will never bring stability to the region.'
I sense that normal Israelis are feeling increasingly like the audience of a play they can't even walk out of in disgust.

Ben Gurion and the Labor party created a political system which guarantees a fractured parliament easily dominated by one substantial minority (taken to be the Labor party) and giving inordinate power to a prime minister (taken to be Ben Gurion and his successors as party leader) and their cabinet. Lenin would have given the design full marks, and it worked for nigh on thirty years. It's working now for Netenyahu and Likud.

One of my great moans about the present day is the abject leadership. Whatever one's opinions of either, compare Ben Gurion and Golda Meir and their Labor party with Netenyahu and Likud and a body could weep. Churchill, even Thatcher, and Cameron. Putin and Stalin. That Chinese suit-filler and Mao. Roosevelt and Obama (points for trying, but sorry).

Trump and Hillary Clinton. Thank you, 21st Century. You promised to astonish, and you have. If you could serve up something astonishing and good, like a comprehensive peace deal in Palestine broadly acceptable to everybody involved, it would be more appreciated.
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Last edited by CapelDodger; 3rd June 2016 at 03:37 PM. Reason: rum
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Old 3rd June 2016, 03:57 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
Most likely because Netanyahu and Hamas feel as though Iraq and Syria are having all the fun in the ME.
It is remarkable how marginalised the Palestinian situation has been of late, isn't it? From 1967, when I was a newly-minted teenager, until about 2001 the Middle Eastern situation and Israel were intimately connected. Even the Iranian Revolution of 1979 was drawn into that frame on the basis of some very marginal remarks by Khomeini. Now Israeli attempts to promote Iran as an existential threat to them sound plaintive.

The truth is that Palestine really doesn't matter much in the Middle East. The stuff which does matter is getting sorted out all around it, leaving Israel free to develop its own contradictions without distractions.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 11:42 PM   #285
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Gday all,

You probably all know of a series of maps going around the internet, showing "Shrinking Palestine".

I have made a new map from these, clearly showing the land that Israel took in 1948-1949 :



Readers are entirely free to copy and use this diagram.


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Old 4th June 2016, 05:21 AM   #286
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Thanks Kapyong, but your map appears to replicate the problem that the orginal "four pictures" cartoon had.

It assumes that all land not owned by Jews (or later Israelis) is "Palestinian Land".

Well, in 1948 there WHERE no "Palestinians"; they where Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and various other groups generically refered to (at the time) as "Arabs". Even the original 1962 PLO charter makes no mention of the concept of a "Palestinian nationality".

Secondly, it takes no account of "disorganised territory"; land that was owned by the former Sovereign power (the Ottoman Empire) rather than individuals. Can you tell me the name of the "Palestinians" who actually OWNED the Negev desert, for example ? (shown on your map as "taken by the Israel")

Of the original "Palestine Mandate", something like 80% or more of the original "Arab" zone is in Arab hands. And roughly 40-50% of the original "Jewish" zone is now the modern state of Israel.

Last edited by Roofgardener; 4th June 2016 at 05:24 AM.
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Old 4th June 2016, 10:27 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
By invading Poland? The Nazis must have made an error in translation - perhaps there's no German word for "pacifist".
I imagine there is a word but it's terribly long (which is why they need all that living space).
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Old 4th June 2016, 11:04 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Thanks Kapyong, but your map appears to replicate the problem that the orginal "four pictures" cartoon had.

It assumes that all land not owned by Jews (or later Israelis) is "Palestinian Land".

Well, in 1948 there WHERE no "Palestinians"; they where Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and various other groups generically refered to (at the time) as "Arabs". Even the original 1962 PLO charter makes no mention of the concept of a "Palestinian nationality".

Secondly, it takes no account of "disorganised territory"; land that was owned by the former Sovereign power (the Ottoman Empire) rather than individuals. Can you tell me the name of the "Palestinians" who actually OWNED the Negev desert, for example ? (shown on your map as "taken by the Israel")

Of the original "Palestine Mandate", something like 80% or more of the original "Arab" zone is in Arab hands. And roughly 40-50% of the original "Jewish" zone is now the modern state of Israel.
Occupation Politics with semoticans will always be an experience of human empire. In any case, armed with the knowledge that sublimation may perilously be compensation, most of the domains at aggregation dictate commencements but quibble and disseminate inquiries which fascinate a rumination.
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Old 4th June 2016, 02:54 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Occupation Politics with semoticans will always be an experience of human empire. In any case, armed with the knowledge that sublimation may perilously be compensation, most of the domains at aggregation dictate commencements but quibble and disseminate inquiries which fascinate a rumination.
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Old 4th June 2016, 03:31 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Occupation Politics with semoticans will always be an experience of human empire. In any case, armed with the knowledge that sublimation may perilously be compensation, most of the domains at aggregation dictate commencements but quibble and disseminate inquiries which fascinate a rumination.
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Old 4th June 2016, 04:29 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Occupation Politics with semoticans will always be an experience of human empire. In any case, armed with the knowledge that sublimation may perilously be compensation, most of the domains at aggregation dictate commencements but quibble and disseminate inquiries which fascinate a rumination.

I think that I might have early dementia. I don't understand English anymore.
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Old 5th June 2016, 01:21 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Occupation Politics with semoticans will always be an experience of human empire. In any case, armed with the knowledge that sublimation may perilously be compensation, most of the domains at aggregation dictate commencements but quibble and disseminate inquiries which fascinate a rumination.
Weeeelll.... that is TRUE, I guess, for a given value of truth. However, could you not equally argue that Israel with aggregations will always be an experience of mankind ?

An allegation should, in any case, be virtual but not pallid. Due to divulging accusations on corroboration, a dearth of Palestine can be more situationally diagnosed.

Furthermore, Islam has not, and in all likelihood never will be febrile yet somehow extraneous. Surely you would agree that instead of embroidering an inquisition of exposures, Yisrael constitutes both an admonished propagandist and an abhorrent amplification ?

----------

Excellent post Jules - and thanks for illustrating the remarkable Babel Generator . I'd never heard of this before, but you can rest assured I will be using it here in the future

(there is also an interesting and amusing explanatory article by Fred Klonsky . )

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Last edited by Roofgardener; 5th June 2016 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 5th June 2016, 08:31 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Occupation Politics with semoticans will always be an experience of human empire. In any case, armed with the knowledge that sublimation may perilously be compensation, most of the domains at aggregation dictate commencements but quibble and disseminate inquiries which fascinate a rumination.
I believe this is relevant.
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Old 5th June 2016, 10:01 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Weeeelll.... that is TRUE, I guess, for a given value of truth. However, could you not equally argue that Israel with aggregations will always be an experience of mankind ?

An allegation should, in any case, be virtual but not pallid. Due to divulging accusations on corroboration, a dearth of Palestine can be more situationally diagnosed.

Furthermore, Islam has not, and in all likelihood never will be febrile yet somehow extraneous. Surely you would agree that instead of embroidering an inquisition of exposures, Yisrael constitutes both an admonished propagandist and an abhorrent amplification ?

----------

Excellent post Jules - and thanks for illustrating the remarkable Babel Generator . I'd never heard of this before, but you can rest assured I will be using it here in the future

(there is also an interesting and amusing explanatory article by Fred Klonsky . )

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In the name of all you hold dear, please do NOT allow Kyoon access to this software !! The forum - nay the World - may not survive the consquences.
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Old 12th June 2016, 10:41 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Syria could never have had that land back because Israel did not conquer it to give it away. Israel conquered it to fill out the territory of Israel as set out after the Balfour Declaration. Having been emptied of its original inhabitants it is to be filled with settlers, as was always the intention. It's just taken a lot longer than expected.

You keep seeing the progress of this project as caused by a series of Arab actions which coincidentally steered it along the original plan. At every step you'll have your "The Arabs did this" or "The Arabs didn't do that" argument as laid out for your convenience on some well-meaning web-site, and at every step the Zionists defend there way out of Europe into some more of somebody else's property.

It beggars belief that Assad the Elder would have turned down the Golan Heights, the recovery of which would have brought him a hero status he gravely lacked. But you believe that he did. As I may have mentioned before, Zionism rots the mind.
This is pure conspiracy theory. According to you, everything unfolds according to a century-old master plan, and those poor fools who are not the puppet-masters just can't help but to play their role.
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Old 12th June 2016, 02:13 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
I imagine there is a word but it's terribly long (which is why they need all that living space).
Ohnezweifelinewigefriedeinganzerumweltohnegewaltgl auber
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Old 12th June 2016, 04:34 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
This is pure conspiracy theory. According to you, everything unfolds according to a century-old master plan, and those poor fools who are not the puppet-masters just can't help but to play their role.
The plan was to create a Jewish State, for Jews and not for other people, in Palestine. This wasn't a secret plan concocted by conspirators but one that was proudly announced at a convention in Vienna 120 years ago, and publicised as widely as possible. Israel is the flawed result. I don't think any of that is controversial.

The Palestinians have, of course, not played their role as a crowd of scruffy-looking extras shuffling off the stage early on. Many have gone, of course, but not nearly enough. The plan has gone very awry.

All the same, from a fringe conference in Vienna 120 years ago to the state of Israel is a remarkable achievement in itself. The perfect result was always a fantasy.
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Old 12th June 2016, 07:14 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The plan was to create a Jewish State, for Jews and not for other people, in Palestine.
If that was the plan, then the Israelis abandoned it a long time ago, making it irrelevant.
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Old 13th June 2016, 01:02 AM   #299
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I suspect that Capeldodger.. and others... would argue that the more right-wing elements in Israeli politics are STILL seeking both an expanded Israel (to include the West Bank and the Golan Heights, and perhaps even Gaza), and the eviction of all Arabs from the expanded Israel. (or at least to keep the Arabs in such a minority that they can never form a significant political presence.)

Judging by the tsunami of knife, car and gun terror attacks throughout Israel in the last 6 months, it would appear that the Palestinians support this idea, and are doing their best to turn the Israeli electorate towards the aforementioned right-wing politicians.

Isn't it nice that they are all working together ?
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Old 13th June 2016, 08:53 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
I suspect that Capeldodger.. and others... would argue that the more right-wing elements in Israeli politics are STILL seeking both an expanded Israel (to include the West Bank and the Golan Heights, and perhaps even Gaza), and the eviction of all Arabs from the expanded Israel. (or at least to keep the Arabs in such a minority that they can never form a significant political presence.)

Judging by the tsunami of knife, car and gun terror attacks throughout Israel in the last 6 months, it would appear that the Palestinians support this idea, and are doing their best to turn the Israeli electorate towards the aforementioned right-wing politicians.

Isn't it nice that they are all working together ?
Agree 100%. The Palestinians have got to learn how to develop some real and sustained sympathy...and stabbing random Israelis is not the answer: it is senseless and self defeating. (But so many Palestinians just don't see it even though many of their better leaders preach against it).

Likewise, Israelis need to learn that stealing more land is not going to work either: it only makes the situation worse and plays into the hands of the most dispicable elements of Both populations.
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Old 14th June 2016, 08:07 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Well, in 1948 there WHERE no "Palestinians"; they where Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and various other groups generically refered to (at the time) as "Arabs". Even the original 1962 PLO charter makes no mention of the concept of a "Palestinian nationality".
The concept of a Palestinian national identity predates the 1948 war by several decades. Even Daniel Pipes traces its origin to 1920, though most historians place it as crystallizing somewhere in the late 19th or early 20th Century.
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Old 14th June 2016, 11:54 AM   #302
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Truly ? Thats very interesting A'isha.

The late 19th Century ? When the region was under Ottoman rule ? That is.. remarkable.

One thought; why did the original PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) founding charter never mention the concept of a Palestinian Nationality, but rather the "Arab Nation" ?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ace/cove1.html

Also, here is an interesting quote from one of the leaders of the PLO, from 1977.

Originally Posted by Zuheir Mohsen
Between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese there are no differences. We are all part of ONE people, the Arab nation. Look, I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are ONE people. Just for political reasons we carefully underwrite our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity.

A separate Palestinian entity needs to fight for the national interest in the then remaining occupied territories. The Jordanian government cannot speak for Palestinians in Israel, Lebanon or Syria. Jordan is a state with specific borders. It cannot lay claim on - for instance - Haifa or Jaffa, while I AM entitled to Haifa, Jaffa, Jerusalem and Beersheba. Jordan can only speak for Jordanians and the Palestinians in Jordan. The Palestinian state would be entitled to represent all Palestinians in the Arab world en elsewhere. Once we have accomplished all of our rights in all of Palestine, we shouldn't postpone the unification of Jordan and Palestine for one second.
(quoted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen )

Thoughts ?

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Old 14th June 2016, 12:45 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
Truly ? Thats very interesting A'isha.

The late 19th Century ? When the region was under Ottoman rule ? That is.. remarkable.
Some historians, particularly the New Historians, have argued that the birth and growth of Palestinian nationalism happened in parallel with the birth and growth of the Jewish nationalist revival movement, though even they disagree as to how much (or even whether) there was causation or merely correlation.

At any rate, I was merely giving a range of theories. I personally think it antecedes Pipes' date, but certainly postdates the turn of the century.

Quote:
One thought; why did the original PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) founding charter never mention the concept of a Palestinian Nationality, but rather the "Arab Nation" ?
?

It seems like it does to me, albeit within a decidedly pan-Arabist context ("Palestine is an Arab homeland bound by strong national ties to the rest of the Arab Countries and which together form the large Arab homeland").

Quote:
Also, here is an interesting quote from one of the leaders of the PLO, from 1977.



(quoted from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen )

Thoughts ?
Well, there most certainly was a Palestinian national identity by 1977!

The PLO is composed of many different groups that were (and are) often at odds with each other. In addition to that, the surrounding Arab nations have a long and ugly history of treating the Palestinians as a useful tool with little to no interest in their actual issues (as Mycroft can describe with more knowledge and skill than I...see the last link in his sig). That wiki article goes into some detail about Mohsen's pan-Arabist and Syrian nationalist loyalties, which is entirely unsurprising to me despite my unfamiliarity with him.
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Old 14th June 2016, 01:34 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The plan was to create a Jewish State, for Jews and not for other people, in Palestine. This wasn't a secret plan concocted by conspirators but one that was proudly announced at a convention in Vienna 120 years ago, and publicised as widely as possible. Israel is the flawed result. I don't think any of that is controversial.
None of that is controversial if you're talking to David Duke or the guys who hang out at National Vanguard. That kind of historical revisionism is well embraced among that crowd.

Real historians, on the other hand, would wonder how anyone could come to that conclusion when all of the foundational documents of Israel, from the Balfour Declaration, Israel's basic law, it's declaration of independence, even the writings of Theodore Herzl all speak of a pluralistic society where everyone's rights are respected.

This deliberately spreading falsehood for the purpose of promoting hate is truly disgusting and unbecoming of someone who claims to be both educated and skeptical. Pardon me, but I very much need a shower now.


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Old 14th June 2016, 02:35 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
None of that is controversial if you're talking to David Duke or the guys who hang out at National Vanguard. That kind of historical revisionism is well embraced among that crowd.

Real historians, on the other hand, would wonder how anyone could come to that conclusion when all of the foundational documents of Israel, from the Balfour Declaration, Israel's basic law, it's declaration of independence, even the writings of Theodore Herzl all speak of a pluralistic society where everyone's rights are respected.

This deliberately spreading falsehood for the purpose of promoting hate is truly disgusting and unbecoming of someone who claims to be both educated and skeptical. Pardon me, but I very much need a shower now.


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Old 15th June 2016, 03:11 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Some historians, particularly the New Historians, have argued that the birth and growth of Palestinian nationalism happened in parallel with the birth and growth of the Jewish nationalist revival movement, though even they disagree as to how much (or even whether) there was causation or merely correlation.
One could argue that Arab nationalism itself developed alongside Jewish nationalism, and that the threat of statist Zionism fuelled it as the threat to Jewish populations across the ME from Pan-Arabism energised Zionist passions among the Mizrachi. Yin yang, semetic version.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
None of that is controversial if you're talking to David Duke or the guys who hang out at National Vanguard. That kind of historical revisionism is well embraced among that crowd.

Real historians, on the other hand, would wonder how anyone could come to that conclusion when all of the foundational documents of Israel, from the Balfour Declaration, Israel's basic law, it's declaration of independence, even the writings of Theodore Herzl all speak of a pluralistic society where everyone's rights are respected.
Simple. Proclamations are cherry picked to support whichever bigoted conclusion is desired.
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Old 15th June 2016, 03:14 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
... Pardon me, but I very much need a shower now.

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You take your mobile phone into the shower ?
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Old 15th June 2016, 03:44 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post

Judging by the tsunami of knife, car and gun terror attacks throughout Israel in the last 6 months, it would appear that the Palestinians support this idea, and are doing their best to turn the Israeli electorate towards the aforementioned right-wing politicians.
Correct. And the Likudists prop up Hamas and their even less attractive cousins by smashing and humiliating Palestinians at every turn. In both cases, it works.
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Old 15th June 2016, 04:29 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
One could argue that Arab nationalism itself developed alongside Jewish nationalism, and that the threat of statist Zionism fuelled it as the threat to Jewish populations across the ME from Pan-Arabism energised Zionist passions among the Mizrachi. Yin yang, semetic version.
A kind of dynamic feedback loop.
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Old 15th June 2016, 05:22 AM   #310
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So then, a perfect symbiosis. The Palestinians attack the Israeli's. The Israeli's respond by expanding the settlements. HAMAS responds by inciting more violence. America and the EU fund the Zionists because.. well... they're all controlled by the Zionists. Or possibly the Illuminati. Something like that, anyway. Putin funds the Islamists because.. well... it REALLY annoys America and Europe. And the "Islamic World" funds the Palestinians because (1) they hate Jews and (2) they hate Palestinians, and want as many of both to be killed as is possible.

A perfect circle. Everybody's happy...with the possible exception of the Palestinians, but nobody cares about them anyway.

That's the Arab/Israeli problem solved. Result !

Hmm.. what shall we discuss next ?
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Old 15th June 2016, 05:59 AM   #311
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That's an awfully hostile response, particularly to trustbutverify.
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Old 15th June 2016, 11:05 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
So then, a perfect symbiosis. The Palestinians attack the Israeli's. The Israeli's respond by expanding the settlements. HAMAS responds by inciting more violence. America and the EU fund the Zionists because.. well... they're all controlled by the Zionists. Or possibly the Illuminati. Something like that, anyway. Putin funds the Islamists because.. well... it REALLY annoys America and Europe. And the "Islamic World" funds the Palestinians because (1) they hate Jews and (2) they hate Palestinians, and want as many of both to be killed as is possible.

A perfect circle. Everybody's happy...with the possible exception of the Palestinians, but nobody cares about them anyway.

That's the Arab/Israeli problem solved. Result !

Hmm.. what shall we discuss next ?
Meanwhile, you continue to avoid the issue by constructing silly Strawmen.
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Old 16th June 2016, 12:23 PM   #313
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It wasn't a Strawman Jules Galen, it was a Satire. And I wasn't responding to Trustbutverify, Aisha, I was just expressing frustration with the whole currupt, hypocritical mess.
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Old 16th June 2016, 08:34 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Roofgardener View Post
It wasn't a Strawman Jules Galen, it was a Satire. And I wasn't responding to Trustbutverify, Aisha, I was just expressing frustration with the whole currupt, hypocritical mess.
I'll take your word for it. But please, don't inject words like "Illuminati" or "Zionist Conspiracy" (like in the Protocols of the Elders or Zion), or any other funny phrases that are typically used by either: 1. Conspiracy Whackos or Wanna-be White-Power Boys, or 2. By people trying to discredit the other by accusing them - directly, or not - of being Conspiracy Whackos or some such ilk.

Seriously, I can appreciate the circle of hatred that flows through that area and poisons almost everything good. I mean...show me an Israeli or Palestinian who believes and practices Peace and Respect for his fellow man - regardless of Religion - and I'll show you someone that is hated with a white-hot passion by a lot of Israelis and Palestinians - and who is called a traitor to "His People".

It's crazy. And I going to try not to add to it. And the fastest way I know how is to try not to use potentially loaded language (and that's an opinion, I know). That's just me.
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Old 16th June 2016, 10:20 PM   #315
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Fair point Jules Galen. Anyway, if I use Satire, then Caliph Erdogen might try to get me arrested !
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Old 2nd July 2016, 06:07 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And I'll agree. Whoever bulldozes the olive and citrus groves in the West Bank in order to intimidate the occupants into leaving is a ****, whether it's Jew or Arab. If it's done to ease and promote Israeli settlement on non-Israeli land then that's Zionism in action, not "Jewishness".
You say "whether it's Jew or Arab" as though you're being neutral, but you're not. You're giving an example that in your mind is something a "Zionist Jew" would do to intimidate Palestinian occupants of the West Bank into leaving.

What's your opinion of the person who murders a sleeping 13 year old girl to intimidate the Jewish occupants into leaving? The action is clearly "anti-Zionist", which is an opinion many share, but we don't smear those "anti-Zionists" with supporting murder the same way we smear "Zionists" with the crime of bulldozing olive groves.

This is my problem with the whole "anti-Zionist not anti-Semitic" shtick. It smears all of Zionism with the attitudes of the nasty extremist turds among them while simultaneously turning a blind eye to the nasty extremist turds among the anti-Zionists, many of whom are hard-core (as well as lesser degrees) anti-Semites in addition to being anti-Zionists.

I am a Zionist. I am unabashed about it. I do my best to give strong, well reasoned arguments in support of Zionism, and I think I do a pretty good job of it.

As a human being who happens to be a Zionist, I am appalled and disgusted when I hear reports of Jewish settler violence, vandalism and murder against Palestinians. That's not "Zionism", it's violence, vandalism and murder. Period.

I know of many other people who post on this forum who are also Zionists, but I can't think of one who doesn't feel the same way. You won't find one of them who approves of settler violence or "price-tagging" as it's often called, or who thinks there should be Israeli terrorists too just because there are Palestinian terrorists.

I think the term "anti-Zionist" obscures the issues. Not enough people understand what "Zionist" means for them to understand what "anti-Zionist" should mean.
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Old 4th July 2016, 08:27 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
What's your opinion of the person who murders a sleeping 13 year old girl to intimidate the Jewish occupants into leaving? The action is clearly "anti-Zionist", which is an opinion many share, but we don't smear those "anti-Zionists" with supporting murder the same way we smear "Zionists" with the crime of bulldozing olive groves.
For pretty much the same reason we don't "smear" a woman as much for punching her rapist. Yes, it is an offense as well, and it is understandable that there would be people who might have an interest in focusing attention on the punch rather than the rape.

Quote:
It smears all of Zionism with the attitudes of the nasty extremist turds among them
You are the nasty extremist turds.

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Quote:
I know of many other people who post on this forum who are also Zionists, but I can't think of one who doesn't feel the same way.
Many people who post on this forum are also fascists, as usual the two groups largely overlap. As if that somehow supports your position.

Quote:
I think the term "anti-Zionist" obscures the issues. Not enough people understand what "Zionist" means for them to understand what "anti-Zionist" should mean.
Nonsense. You deliberately push confusion between Zionism and Judaism so that you can hide your fascist drivel behind a transparent "antisemitism!" tactic.
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Old 4th July 2016, 10:54 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
For pretty much the same reason we don't "smear" a woman as much for punching her rapist. Yes, it is an offense as well, and it is understandable that there would be people who might have an interest in focusing attention on the punch rather than the rape.
So in your opinion, a Palestinian breaking into a home and murdering a 13 year-old girl is akin to a woman who is being raped punching her rapist.

By the way, I've heard that analogy several times over the last year or so and always from an anarchist, so it appears to me to be a talking point. Would you agree with that? If so, what's the source?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You are the nasty extremist turds.
Let's try to have a discussion and try not to have this thrown into AAH or to the I/P thread. I'll take that as an honest expression of your opinion and ask you to clarify further. Without trying to start an Israel/Palestine argument, what do you think makes me an extremist?

For reciprocity, I'll tell you that in my opinion your extremism is revealed in just this one post where you demonstrate apparent support for the murder of that teen aged girl and then posted what looks like a fan video.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Nonsense. You deliberately push confusion between Zionism and Judaism so that you can hide your fascist drivel behind a transparent "antisemitism!" tactic.
I disagree that I do that, but for the sake of understanding your point of view, can you show some examples where you believe I do?
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Old 4th July 2016, 11:30 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
So in your opinion, a Palestinian breaking into a home and murdering a 13 year-old girl is akin to a woman who is being raped punching her rapist.
{...}
Without trying to start an Israel/Palestine argument, what do you think makes me an extremist?
Your support for groups of Israelis (aka the IDF) breaking into homes and murdering thousands of children. You know, "punch", "rapist", "extremist"...you can connect the dots.

Quote:
By the way, I've heard that analogy several times over the last year or so and always from an anarchist, so it appears to me to be a talking point. Would you agree with that? If so, what's the source?
Or it just might be a good analogy.

Quote:
For reciprocity, I'll tell you that in my opinion your extremism is revealed in just this one post where you demonstrate apparent support for the murder of that teen aged girl and then posted what looks like a fan video.
I don't care about your opinion.

Quote:
I disagree that I do that, but for the sake of understanding your point of view, can you show some examples where you believe I do?
Lookie, only 25 posts back for the first obvious example. Do you even realize how transparent this is?
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Old 4th July 2016, 04:48 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Your support for groups of Israelis (aka the IDF) breaking into homes and murdering thousands of children. You know, "punch", "rapist", "extremist"...you can connect the dots.
It seems like in "connecting the dots" you can describe anyone who supports Israel as extremist. Would you agree with that? If not, why not?

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I don't care about your opinion.
If that were true, you wouldn't keep telling me what my opinion is.

Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Lookie, only 25 posts back for the first obvious example. Do you even realize how transparent this is?
Well, I disagree with your assessment, but this isn't the thread to hash it out. Tell me, do you believe there is no overlap at all among "anti-Zionism" and anti-Semitism?
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