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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 1st October 2022, 02:31 AM   #2681
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Then explain why their appeal was granted and an appellate trial held. Sorry to disappoint your.



In your world Hellmann upheld the appeal?




Show evidence that HRC got involved. Go on. Do it. No matter how many times you get shot down on this, like a mole you just stick your head up out of the hole for more "whack a mole".


Yes, what exactly does it say about you as a person?
Hellman was expunged, as well you know, which shows debate and logic is not on your agenda, as you are still trying to push the weird and bizarre idea that Hellman's verdict stands.


Face the truth. Stop evading it.
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Old 1st October 2022, 02:33 AM   #2682
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Originally Posted by FergusMcDuck View Post
Sollecito's footprint under the luminol? What, did his foot shrink in the laundry?
Both sides - prosecution and the defence - were presented to the meirts court. The merits court preferred the report of the forensic scientific police for the prosecution so it matters neither here nor there what the defence said, as it was not found to have merit.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:03 AM   #2683
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It wasn't. It was most irregular. The only other times the Paragraph 2, 'not guilty due to insufficient evident' was used in recent times was by former President Berlusconi, former President Andreotti and a group of people belonging to a far left terrorist group who left bombs at various Italian stations (it was ruled that identity of the actual bombers was not clear). So do we see a pattern here? Absolutely! It was a POLITICAL annulment and little to do with the evidence presented at the merits court and appeal court.

In fact, if you read the final motivations (written reasons) the judges make clear the PAIR WERE PRESENT AT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME AS KERCHER WAS MURDERED.

In addition, the pair lied and lied and lied.

Innocent people do not need to lie to the police.
You just repeat all this debunked stuff, for some unknown reason.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:05 AM   #2684
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Eight messages posted in 29 minutes. All info presented is long since debunked factoids. This thread with its 30+ Continuations is a record of it all.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:08 AM   #2685
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hellman was expunged, as well you know, which shows debate and logic is not on your agenda, as you are still trying to push the weird and bizarre idea that Hellman's verdict stands.


Face the truth. Stop evading it.
The convicting Nencini court was also expunged, as you yourself upthread wrote. As such, the 2015 Supreme Court exonerated the pair.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 1st October 2022, 06:00 AM   #2686
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Correction. They were not exonerated. Their sentences were annulled.
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Good to know that we're essentially on the same page.
Troubling.

Not Vixen's false statement, but Bill Williams being "essentially" on the same page.

Knox and Sollecito were definitively acquitted of the murder/rape of Kercher by the CSC (Italian Supreme Court of Cassation) in 2015 after being provisionally wrongfully convicted twice and rightfully provisionally acquitted once. The CSC had annulled the Nencini appeals court wrongful conviction and, under Italian law, explicitly acquitted Knox and Sollecito, since there was no credible evidence that either had any role in the crimes against Kercher.

Acquittal in a proceeding following a conviction is an exoneration.

I see that Bill provided clarification or expansion of his statement in a subsequent post (#2669).

Last edited by Numbers; 1st October 2022 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 1st October 2022, 06:18 AM   #2687
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why? We both agree Guede is guilty as charged. He did the crime and he did the time.

It is a pity the other perpetrators got away with it because of supporters misconceived ideas, including Donald Trump, the racist who urged everyone to boycott Italy for daring to even think some American woman could commit a crime.
Donald Trump was one of the perpetrators? Because thatís what your sentence says.
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Old 1st October 2022, 06:28 AM   #2688
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why? We both agree Guede is guilty as charged. He did the crime and he did the time.

It is a pity the other perpetrators got away with it because of supporters misconceived ideas, including Donald Trump, the racist who urged everyone to boycott Italy for daring to even think some American woman could commit a crime.
While Trump, at that time not in the US government or any state government, called for a boycott of Italian imports into the US, the US continued to import more (in dollar value) from Italy than Italy imported from the US each and every year from 1985 to the present. In the years 2008 through 2015, US imports (in dollar value) from Italy each year were more than twice Italian imports from the US.

So there is no evidence that Trump's statement on a boycott had any effect on US - Italy trade. Nor has anyone provided credible evidence that the Italian courts were influenced by Trump's statement or that there was any effect on the Knox - Sollecito case.

Source for US-Italy trade history:

https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4759.html
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:04 AM   #2689
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
I mean it's obvious Stacy isn't a racist, as you are hamfistedly attempting to paint her to be. A trick you once tried with me as I recall. It was about as ludicrous and transparent then too.
It's odd that Vixen or others attribute the final and definitive acquittal of Knox and Sollecito to racism, or claim that those who have noted that there is no credible evidence to justify the provisional convictions of Knox and Sollecito, overturned in 2015 by the definitive acquittal, are racist.

While Italy has a reputation as a highly racist country, Guede's conviction was based on credible and significant evidence, including the unchallenged detection of his DNA within her, on her clothing, and on her purse (handbag), and shoe prints matching his shoes were found on the pillow under her body.

Here's a brief quote from a Wikipedia article titled "Racism in Italy":

Quote:
In 2011, a report by Human Rights Watch pointed to growing indications of a rise in xenophobia within the Italian society. A 2017 Pew Research Center survey indicated Italy as the most racist country in western Europe. A 2019 survey by Sgw revealed that 55% of the Italian interviewees justified the perpetration of racist acts. On the occasion of a European Parliament resolution to condemn structural racism and racially motivated violence in 2020, around half of the Italian members voted against it. According to a 2020 YouGov opinion polling, the Italian interviewees claimed that the second most common cause of discrimination practiced in the country lie with racist prejudices.
Footnote numbers omitted in the above quote.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Italy

Last edited by Numbers; 1st October 2022 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:12 AM   #2690
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
It's odd that Vixen or others attribute the final and definitive acquittal of Knox and Sollecito to racism, or claim that those who have noted that there is no credible evidence to justify the provisional convictions of Knox and Sollecito, overturned in 2015 by the definitive acquittal, are racist.

While Italy has a reputation as a highly racist country, Guede's conviction was based on credible and significant evidence, including the unchallenged detection of his DNA within her, on her clothing, and on her purse (handbag).

Here's a brief quote from a Wikipedia article titled "Racism in Italy":



Footnote numbers omitted in the above quote.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Italy
Nobody knows what is in Guede's autobiography so nobody can claim that is what he is going to say. However, given three people were convicted and only one served a prison sentence whilst the other two had a massive advertising campaign to free them, with funds from Donald Trump and pressure from the US State Department, I don't see why Guede should be censored form that type of conjecture?

If a poster were to write, for example, 'Frankl is a Jewish guy who when he wrote his book whilst interred in a concentration camp, was just playing the 'poor me, the Jew-card', of course Frankl can patiently explain his side of the story. Probably more authentic than anyone else's side, no?
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:30 AM   #2691
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nobody knows what is in Guede's autobiography so nobody can claim that is what he is going to say. However, given three people were convicted and only one served a prison sentence whilst the other two had a massive advertising campaign to free them, with funds from Donald Trump and pressure from the US State Department, I don't see why Guede should be censored form that type of conjecture?

If a poster were to write, for example, 'Frankl is a Jewish guy who when he wrote his book whilst interred in a concentration camp, was just playing the 'poor me, the Jew-card', of course Frankl can patiently explain his side of the story. Probably more authentic than anyone else's side, no?
If Guede's book has a full sequence of events starting with Amanda being seen by an eyewitness settled in across town at Raff's house, and somehow ends 20 minutes later with the three of them slaughtering Meredith in her bedroom by the trio of broken English and butchered Italian speakers, that makes coherent sense and fits all the other facts of the case, I'll buy the book... solely because he'll have achieved what no guilter has in 15 years of trying lol

I suspect the reason Guede confessed to his friend on Skype that he met Meredith alone, Meredith was killed by a lone male, and Amanda had nothing to do with it, was because that was, roughly, what happened. And he, nor anyone else, over the many years of trying, can make this trio of random strangers get together in time and space for this nonsensical plot to work, because it's really stupid and obviously didn't happen.
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Old 1st October 2022, 08:54 AM   #2692
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nobody knows what is in Guede's autobiography so nobody can claim that is what he is going to say. However, given three people were convicted and only one served a prison sentence whilst the other two had a massive advertising campaign to free them, with funds from Donald Trump and pressure from the US State Department, I don't see why Guede should be censored form that type of conjecture?

If a poster were to write, for example, 'Frankl is a Jewish guy who when he wrote his book whilst interred in a concentration camp, was just playing the 'poor me, the Jew-card', of course Frankl can patiently explain his side of the story. Probably more authentic than anyone else's side, no?
A totally bizarre post containing several falsehoods or errors in logic.

Among the falsehoods or errors:

1. Knox and Sollecito were in fact provisionally convicted and sentenced by the Massei court in 2009. They were released, as required by Italian and international (ECHR) law when they were provisionally acquitted by the Hellmann appeals court in 2011. They were finally and definitively acquitted in 2015 by the Italian Supreme Court of Cassation (CSC), based on the total lack of any credible evidence against them, as explained in the CSC motivation report.

Guede was convicted in a fast-track (abbreviated) trial that he had requested. He was never acquitted despite his two appeals of that conviction. Nor was he granted his request for revision following his final conviction. Those requesting a fast-track trial receive a large reduction in sentence in accordance with Italian law, and this reduction was granted to Guede.

2. Guede has presented no evidence showing that his conviction was based on racism. The "censoring" Guede for his claim that some (imagined) real killer of Kercher had commented on his skin color by online posters does not change that total lack of evidence.

3. Jews were placed in concentration (death) camps based on their identity as Jews, by Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, in accordance with the explicit policies of those countries. They were placed in those camps, generally in groups, and not generally after conviction for any crime that would be recognized under international law.

Guede was convicted of the murder and sexual assault of Meredith Kercher based upon significant credible evidence. There is no evidence in the Italian court records that his skin color or race influenced his conviction.

Thus, Vixen's attempt to compare the persecution of Jews with the legal and evidence-based conviction of Guede is a complete failure in fact and logic.

Last edited by Numbers; 1st October 2022 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 1st October 2022, 09:24 AM   #2693
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It's been so long since I've thought about this case I'm starting to forget all the dumb little details. Which is good because that's valueable brain real estate which could go to something more productive like, netflix show binging or whatever.

But one little detail did pop into my head again while thinking about Rudy's skype convo. He's telling his buddy none of the three accused and arrested were there or involved, but that he himself was. This is in spite of this conversation happening after the kitchen knife was picked up and announced that it tested positive for Meredith's DNA.

So despite having the confessed killer (Amanda) and the murder weapon (kitchen knife) Rudy suspects once the dust settles the only thing still standing will be his forensic evidence all over the scene, so tells his friend he was there alone while Meredith was bleeding all over him, and mysterious stranger appeared, did the deed, before vanishing into the ether leaving poor Rudy to watch Meredith die and him nothing to do but walk into the night mournfully while leaving a trail of bloody prints.

Hmm I wonder why he suspects nothing against Amanda and co will stick and the cops will come looking exclusively his way?

Imagine being a guilter lol
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Old 1st October 2022, 09:36 AM   #2694
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Interred? Had they already gassed the poor fellow?
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:27 AM   #2695
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to disappoint you but the pair were found guilty as charged after a fair trial and upheld on appeal. Then Hillary Clinton got involved and the US State Department with the jingoistic idea of 'bring our girl home' and **** the backward Italians (who actually laid the blueprint for courts of justice long before the USA existed). Political back-channelling and diplomacy. Nothing at all to do with the evidence or the merits court findings.

If you are cock-a-hoop at such unfairness and injustice, consider this: what does it say about you as a person?

Think about it.

LOL You have no idea.

And you betray yourself yet again with your false supposition that somehow I have an emotional need for there to be a particular outcome. On thehw the facts and evidence (and lack of evidence). Once it became crystal clear to me that the investigation into Knox and Sollecito had been inept and riddled with malpractice, tunnel vision and confirmation bias, and that their original trials had been a mockery of justice. When they were ultimately - and entirely correctly - cleared of any involvement whatsoever in the crime, I was only satisfied in the sense that this was the outcome that fit with my own analysis.

But yeah: feel free to continue knocking yourself out frothing over "Knox groupies" and "people delighting in Mez' (sic) killers getting away with it". Nobody cares what your bogus conclusions tell you. Enjoy!
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:29 AM   #2696
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is where you and I differ. For you, it is all about the personalities and the spin. For me, it is a pure objective scientific impartial look at the evidence as set out in court. Due legal process was followed. It was fair, it was lengthy, there was 'no rush to justice' - a lie you lot like to perpetuate - there was nothing corrupt or untoward (beyond normal human error and foibles).

Ah see: that's because you don't understand forensic science properly at all. You've demonstrated your extraordinary scientific illiteracy many, many times in this thread already.

And "you lot"? AHAHAHAHAHA
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:36 AM   #2697
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rinaldi and Boema are fingerprint experts and you are not. These are professionals who have objectively analysed thousands of imprints left behind by perpetrators.

Yeah, the bathmat print was left by fingers, huh? That's news to me!

You're unaware that Rinaldi's/Boemi's "analysis" of the bathmat partial print was ridiculed by serious forensic scientists across the world? You're unaware that a child under the age of 10 successfully spotted Rinaldi's/Boemi's incredible & fundamental error regarding the "matching" of shoe sole prints?

(And it's no surprise that you can't/won't understand the difference between 1) a readable latent fingerprint of fine loops, swirls and whorls left on a sufficiently smooth surface, which can be compared reliably with reference prints to make or exclude a match, and 2) a saturated footprint (with no detail beyond that of a general fuzzy outline) left on a high-pile bathmat, which can only be excluded against reference prints made by feet that are significantly larger or smaller.)
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:37 AM   #2698
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Fixed your brain fart.

D'oh thanks! It's been a long time (thankfully!)
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:42 AM   #2699
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All this was brought up at the meris trial - which is the correct place to present evidence (which includes witness testimony) - and having heard both sides, the jury of judges and laymen found in favour of the prosecution. The automatic appeal sent to Hellmann was later expunged as Hellman having badly erred and played to the US media, and the subsequent appeal upheld the original Marasca verdict.

All the Supreme Court was a brief tow-day meeting in camera to look at the legal paperwork (and nothing else - it does not have the jurisdiction to assess evidence or facts found by a merits court). Clearly the US State Department interfered. That much is transparent.

Yeah..... jurisprudence not one of your strong points either, huh? Why do you think that appeal courts exist, Vixen? Do you think there would be any point in higher appellate courts existing if they did not overturn improper convictions (and, very occasionally, improper acquittals)? Are you unaware that appeal courts all over the world are imbued with the power either to remand a case back to the lower courts for retrial, or to quash convictions entirely if they believe a fundamental miscarriage of justice has occurred and that no fair lower court could ever convict?

The British Library will have some excellent and instructive books on this whole area - I recommend a few weeks' study.
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:46 AM   #2700
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
A totally bizarre post containing several falsehoods or errors in logic.

You write that as if this is an unusual occurrence.....
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Old 1st October 2022, 01:37 PM   #2701
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
You write that as if this is an unusual occurrence.....
Article 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits discrimination based on personal characteristics such as "color", "nationality", "national origin", and "race".

If Guede had actually believed that Italy had treated him differently by definitively convicting him for the murder/rape of Kercher than Italy had treated Knox and Sollecito by definitively acquitting them of those crimes, he would have applied to the ECHR seeking to obtain a judgment against Italy. This application would need to have been lodged with the ECHR no later than 6 months after his receipt of the motivation report for his final conviction or final denial of revision.

HUDOC, however, shows no such filing by Guede.

Here's an example of the conclusion in an ECHR case against Italy alleging a violation of Convention Article 14 with Article 6:

Quote:
48. In the Court’s view, it is beyond doubt that the applicant was treated differently compared with workers who were nationals of the European Union and who, like him, had large families. Unlike them, the applicant was not entitled to the family allowance provided for by section 65 of Law no. 448 of 1998. Moreover, this was not disputed by the Government.

49. The Court further observes that the refusal to grant the allowance was based exclusively on the nationality of the applicant, who at the time was not a national of a European Union Member State. It was not alleged that the applicant did not satisfy the other statutory conditions for entitlement to the benefit in question. Hence, it is clear that he was treated less favourably than others in a relevantly similar situation, on account of a personal characteristic (
Source:

DHAHBI v. ITALY 17120/09

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-142504

Here's the text of Convention Article 14:

Quote:
Article 14

“The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in [the] Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.”

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Old 1st October 2022, 01:43 PM   #2702
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You mean her sharp insights change outside of this thread?
Yep...they change to the topic being discussed in that thread. But thanks for the compliment.
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Old 1st October 2022, 02:01 PM   #2703
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Well, there's a give away of what drives you into believing only Guede is guilty. There we have it folks! We have someone claiming to be a 'skeptic' from the USA who thinks Black prisoners 'play the race card'. Disgusting comment.

May I suggest you clean up your own backyard in the USA? You can kill your ignorance by perhaps reading
  • 'Solitary by Albert Woodfox;
  • 'Soledad Brother' by George Jackson and
  • Michelle Alexander's 'The New Jim Crow'.
Then come back and claim disadvantage to Black defendants doesn't exist. No wonder you are completely deaf to the evidence if that is your mindset. Wow. So open about it, too. Wow.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
LOL! Oh, please, Vix! Guede did play the race card. Or do you seriously think there was a "left-handed man, wearing a Napapijri jacket and a white cap with a red stripe" who actually said "Black man found, black man guilty"?

Utter fail on your part to play the indignant defender!
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Don't change the subject and the context. You are talking about the stuff defendants say to the police. We were talking about Guede's experience of being the only defendant of the three serving a sentence.

I've seen some attempts at virtue signaling before, but yours is just pathetic. Playing the anti-racist defender by falsely representing what I said doesn't work because people here can see right through it. We know you far too well.

FACT: Guede is black.
FACT: Guede killed Meredith Kercher.
FACT: Guede claimed the 'real killer' said "Black man found, Black man
guilty".
FACT: No 'left-handed man wearing a Napapijri jacket and white hat with
a red band' existed.
FACT: Guede lied about what this non-existent 'killer' said.
FACT: Guede attempted to use his race as a motive for why he didn't 'help'
Meredith and fled the county.
FACT: That is Guede playing the race card.

I'm not the one changing the subject. YOU blatantly accused me of racism and I responded.
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Old 1st October 2022, 02:38 PM   #2704
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Hey Vixen did the US State Department pull strings to free those two spoiled American cop killers in Rome yet? Surely they're just a couple of good old boys bossed around by 3rd world corrupt cops and need to be brought home asap?

I will be keeping an eye out for the Diane Sawyer interview with them as heroes any day now.
Stacyhs thinks they should! Stacyhs thinks they are innocent!!!



Such is the sheer power of her intellect and her capacity to believe all Americans are sweet homeboys (but not the ones 'playing the race card'.)
Why do you insist on lying? Is it pathological? I most certainly do NOT think Natale-Hjorth and Elder are 'innocent'. There is no doubt Elder stabbed Rega to death. I have questioned the reliability of Rega partner Andrea Varriale's version of what happenedbecause he has admitted to lying about both officers having their guns at the time. Am I to expect you to claim now that I think all Carabinieri are liars?

But as you said in an earlier post, "Innocent people do not need to lie to the police."

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Old 1st October 2022, 02:50 PM   #2705
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All this was brought up at the meris trial - which is the correct place to present evidence (which includes witness testimony) - and having heard both sides, the jury of judges and laymen found in favour of the prosecution. The automatic appeal sent to Hellmann was later expunged as Hellman having badly erred and played to the US media, and the subsequent appeal upheld the original Marasca verdict.

All the Supreme Court was a brief tow-day meeting in camera to look at the legal paperwork (and nothing else - it does not have the jurisdiction to assess evidence or facts found by a merits court). Clearly the US State Department interfered. That much is transparent.
Ah....the same old, tired, unsupported lies.

All the many scientific experts and judges who did not support the guilty verdict or Stefanoni's discredited findings are 'bent', 'incompetent', or in the pocket of the US government or mafia or Masons or fill in the blank according to you. But all the pro-guilt ones are 'honest' and 'trustworthy'. Is that why Stefanoni 'forgot about' all those negative TMB tests that were crucial evidence? Or why the police failed to either audio- or video-record the crucial interrogations? Or why Napoleoni, Zugarini, et al officers stand convicted themselves for misusing their positions to harass a court psychologist and Napoleoni's ex-husband? Yep...totally honest cops.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:02 PM   #2706
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Knox and Sollecito Guede being present at the scene made ZERO attempt to fetch help for the dying Kercher who must have been in great pain and agony. In fact, her two phones were stolen from her so that she couldn't call for help and her door locked to delay the body being found.


No remorse by the killer whatsoever.
Fixed that for you, Vix.

Who had a history of theft? Guede
Who had a history of burglary? Guede
Who had a history of stealing phones: Guede
Whose DNA in Kercher's blood were found on her purse? Guede
Who fled the country? Guede


I think my favorite example of illogical Guede court findings is that he was acquitted of stealing the phones and money when his, and only his, DNA was found on Kercher's purse and only he had the motive to steal both: no money and no job.

By the way, you love to present the fact that he couldn't have locked the bedroom door because his bloody shoe prints go from the bedroom straight down the hall, and none is pointing toward the door. EXACTLY WHERE are Knox's and/or Sollecito's prints facing Kercher's door and continuing to show a path out the front door or anywhere else? Did her feet suddenly just stop leaving prints? That one footprint facing the bedroom door had no blood or DNA to identify who it belonged to or when it was left. It was found to be "generally compatible" with Knox's foot but only a "probable" match. But as no DNA was found, it cannot be said to absolutely belong to Knox nor can it be times to the night of the murder. It was never compared to the footprints of Laura or Filomena.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:06 PM   #2707
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
So that's one person (allegedly). How long until we work our way up to the Secretary of State? Their state Senator? Or the President of the United States? Soon?

Strange they bent over backwards with Knox in a massive back channel conspiracy to free this psycho sex killer and set her loose on their own citizens for no reason. But why this one in particular and and not others?

It couldn't be that the evidence against her was just garbage tier and Meredith was in fact killed by the knife carrying criminal at the scene with her blood gushing down his palms and knife marks on his fingers who had a history of breaking and entering. Jeez does that description really sound like the guilty party, no way. Must have been a big international conspiracy.
Vixen is lying. I don't think those two Americans are 'innocent'. See my other post regarding questioning Viarrele's veracity since he admitted to lying about Cerciello Rega and him having their guns.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:31 PM   #2708
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All this was brought up at the meris trial - which is the correct place to present evidence (which includes witness testimony) - and having heard both sides, the jury of judges and laymen found in favour of the prosecution. The automatic appeal sent to Hellmann was later expunged as Hellman having badly erred and played to the US media, and the subsequent appeal upheld the original Marasca verdict.

All the Supreme Court was a brief tow-day meeting in camera to look at the legal paperwork (and nothing else - it does not have the jurisdiction to assess evidence or facts found by a merits court). Clearly the US State Department interfered. That much is transparent.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ah....the same old, tired, unsupported lies.

All the many scientific experts and judges who did not support the guilty verdict or Stefanoni's discredited findings are 'bent', 'incompetent', or in the pocket of the US government or mafia or Masons or fill in the blank according to you. But all the pro-guilt ones are 'honest' and 'trustworthy'. Is that why Stefanoni 'forgot about' all those negative TMB tests that were crucial evidence? Or why the police failed to either audio- or video-record the crucial interrogations? Or why Napoleoni, Zugarini, et al officers stand convicted themselves for misusing their positions to harass a court psychologist and Napoleoni's ex-husband? Yep...totally honest cops.
Vixen's post above is not only filled with lies, it thoroughly misrepresents the lawful Italian judicial processes in order to make its false arguments. Here are corrections for some of the judicial process misrepresentations.

1. Under Italian criminal procedure law, an appeals trial judge has the same authority to review the evidence, even new evidence, including testimony, and evaluate the factual and legal merits of a case as does a first instance court judge.

2. Appeals in Italy are not automatic, but only occur if the accused or the prosecutor files a request for an appeal within the statutory time limit.

3. It is incorrect to refer to an annulled court decision as expunged. The court decision, even if annulled, continues as an accessible record, and may be referred to by, for example, the Italian Constitutional Court or the ECHR in an evaluation of the case. Under Italian law, the annulled court decisions in the Knox - Sollecito case include the Massei first instance verdict and motivation report, the Hellmann appeal court verdict and motivation report except for Knox's conviction for calunnia against Lumumba, and the Marasca CSC panel verdict .and motivation report. The Marasca verdict is the definitive acquittal of Knox and Sollecito on the murder/rape and aggravated calunnia charges.

4. Contrary to Vixen's misrepresentation, Italian criminal procedural law allows the CSC to review the evidence that was already gathered with respect to the admissibility and quality of that evidence and how it was used to logically (or not) develop the verdict.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:34 PM   #2709
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry to disappoint you but the pair were found guilty as charged after a fair trial
Then explain why their appeal was granted and an appellate trial held. Sorry to disappoint you.
Do try and follow more closely. If the trial was so "fair" then why was the appeal granted? And then that 'fair' trial overturned?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hellman was expunged, as well you know, which shows debate and logic is not on your agenda, as you are still trying to push the weird and bizarre idea that Hellman's verdict stands.


Face the truth. Stop evading it.
Seriously, do you have a reading comprehension problem? Are you hallucinating posts where you think I said any of that? Or is this misrepresentation (aka 'lying') about what I said deliberate? Because it has to be at least one of them.

By the way, Massei and Nencini were also expunged but since when has that stopped you from referring to them as if they still have any merit?

You saying "I" don't have debate or logic on my agenda is beyond ironic. As I said earlier, I'm not the one handwaving away the forensic evidence like negative TMB tests, piss poor DNA analysis that has been discredited by far more experts than uphold it (you've never presented other experts who do no matter how many times it's been requested), and the many and various ways the SP broke anti-contamination protocols. And I also don't lie about what other posters have said. That's your 'debate' tactic.
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Old 1st October 2022, 04:46 PM   #2710
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Both sides - prosecution and the defence - were presented to the meirts court. The merits court preferred the report of the forensic scientific police for the prosecution so it matters neither here nor there what the defence said, as it was not found to have merit.
What? Are you under the weird and bizarre idea that the Massei verdict stands?

The only one that counts is M-B.

Face the truth. Stop evading it
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Old 1st October 2022, 06:35 PM   #2711
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post


It bears no relation to Stacyhs' post in which she writes about an autobiography she hasn't even read about some African guy:

Quote:
It's another ploy to gain sympathy from idiots who'd waste money on his book. I'd bet he's playing the "poor me, I'm just a victim of racism" card, too.

He can't come out and directly accuse Knox and Sollecito, but you can bet he'll slip in more than a few innuendos.
(The latter paragraph is included for full context.)

Are you seriously saying one should not challenge an assumption that any book written by a Black guy will be 'playing the race card', when it is well documented that this demographic is known to have a particularly hard time in the justice system?

What both of the aforesaid assumptions have in common is the commonplace but lazy and ignorant view that racist stereotypes are true. In other words, it was OK to extradite a couple of people because of their nationality even if they were denied their legal right to a hearing and that any Black guy complaining about treatment int he justice system must be 'playing the race card'. What is there not to legitimately challenge?

Stacyhs is welcome to speak for herself in response, she doesn't need a spokesperson.

Nowhere has anybody been called a scurrilous name!
What is this penchant of yours for misrepresenting (lying) about what has been said? It's grown quite tiresome and predictable. Do you think people here can't read?

First of all, I was speaking directly about ONE convicted murderer, Guede...not some vague "African guy"... well known for his lies as both the trial judges and his own foster family have supported as part of his character. No where did I say, or even imply, that "any book written by a Black guy will be 'playing the race card' or that "any Black guy complaining about treatment in the justice system must be 'playing the race card'."

I repeat: your virtue signaling by attempting to be the anti-racist defender falls flat on its face. All it's doing is revealing even more the dishonest tactics you resort. Stop embarrassing yourself.
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Old 1st October 2022, 07:00 PM   #2712
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Nobody knows what is in Guede's autobiography so nobody can claim that is what he is going to say. However, given three people were convicted and only one served a prison sentence whilst the other two had a massive advertising campaign to free them, with funds from Donald Trump and pressure from the US State Department, I don't see why Guede should be censored form that type of conjecture?

If a poster were to write, for example, 'Frankl is a Jewish guy who when he wrote his book whilst interred in a concentration camp, was just playing the 'poor me, the Jew-card', of course Frankl can patiently explain his side of the story. Probably more authentic than anyone else's side, no?
Does your alleged Frankl have a history of playing that card? Of constantly lying? Has he gone on TV and made statements like this:

At 1:19:17

Leosini: Rudy, why do you think AK accused Lumumba?

Guede, Yet, I have come to a clear opinion: in that house when I bumped into that man that I didn't know and who didn't know me and who spoke with Amanda who was outside, and told her "There's someone inside" I think he told her there's a person of color in the house. What I want to say is that, had Amanda seen me, she'd have thrown her false accusation against me to defend herself. But when she heard there was a person of color in the house, to cover her ass...pardon my French, she resorted to Patrick Lumumba's name, because, indeed that evening, she had a text from PL telling her not to come to work. Had she received one from Michael Jordan, she'd have accused him instead."
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Remember, Ficarra said SHE brought up Rudy and BEFORE the text message to Lumumba was ever mentioned. Once again Guede is lying and trying to use racism in his defense.
Quote:
That evening she understood my intentions and said to me, OK. I’ll now tell you names of other people,
because I invited her to look through her phone and said, Think of someone. It’s not possible that no one, or only two people, came into that house. Think of someone who could have known her. So she looked
through her phone and started looking at a series of numbers and then she remembered and she said to
me, Look. I thought of someone. There are other four, five people who I know she knew, some of them
came to the house, I brought them myself. She gave me their phone numbers and she also gave me a
reference to where, in particular for Patrick Lumumba, she told me where, in what neighborhood, he
could live… At that point I told her, For me it’s important that we write these things, so, seeing as you’re
waiting here, let’s go write a deposition about these things that you just gave me, that you just told me.
So I went into my office and began to write…
…I asked her if someone else came to mind, a boy who had been in the apartment of her downstairs
neighbors, of the students who lived below her because we had heard from the others that there had
been a meeting. One evening they had had a party at home, which Amanda and Meredith were at also,
and then she said to me, Yes, it’s true. I remember this boy, but I don’t know his name or his number
because I never saw him again. I don’t know what else to say.
As for Trump, he claims he sent a donation but he is infamous for claiming donations that he never actually made. There is no evidence that he ever actually sent a dime. He's a also a pathological liar.

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Old 1st October 2022, 08:43 PM   #2713
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do try and follow more closely. If the trial was so "fair" then why was the appeal granted? And then that 'fair' trial overturned?



Seriously, do you have a reading comprehension problem? Are you hallucinating posts where you think I said any of that? Or is this misrepresentation (aka 'lying') about what I said deliberate? Because it has to be at least one of them.

By the way, Massei and Nencini were also expunged but since when has that stopped you from referring to them as if they still have any merit?

You saying "I" don't have debate or logic on my agenda is beyond ironic. As I said earlier, I'm not the one handwaving away the forensic evidence like negative TMB tests, piss poor DNA analysis that has been discredited by far more experts than uphold it (you've never presented other experts who do no matter how many times it's been requested), and the many and various ways the SP broke anti-contamination protocols. And I also don't lie about what other posters have said. That's your 'debate' tactic.
To expunge, or expungement, in US legal terminology, generally refers to the sealing of the arrest record or conviction record of an individual. It is done on the order of a court only if the circumstances of the requestor and the crime meet the requirements of state law. Generally, records of only minor crimes may be expunged. The purpose is to make that record unavailable to anyone doing a background check, for example, for employment or housing, for that person.

See, for example:

https://legaldictionary.net/expungement/

In Italian legal documents such as motivation reports, the quashing of an appealed verdict is signified by the use of the word "annulla" which may be translated as "annuls" or "cancels". For example, in the PQM (For These Reasons) section at the end of the Marasca CSC panel motivation report, the words "annulla senza rinvio la sentenza impugnata" may be translated as "annul the judgment under appeal without referral". There is no sealing of the record, so the text of the judgment under appeal remains available, but, as specified in the appellant court judgment, parts or the whole of its verdict, evidence, and reasoning are quashed (invalidated).

Part of the word game some guilters play is to claim that the Hellmann appeal court judgment was "expunged" by the Chieffi CSC panel, and therefore the Conti - Vecchiotti report no longer exists as evidence. In fact, not all the Hellmann verdict was quashed - its conviction of Knox for calunnia was approved by the Chieffi panel. There was no ruling by Chieffi quashing the C-V report.

The Italian law on Annulment Without Referral is given in CPP Article 620 Annullamento senza rinvio. See, for example:

https://www.altalex.com/documents/ne...per-cassazione

Translations by Google and by Collins Reverso.

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Old 1st October 2022, 09:03 PM   #2714
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
....

As for Trump, he claims he sent a donation but he is infamous for claiming donations that he never actually made. There is no evidence that he ever actually sent a dime. He's a also a pathological liar.
Perhaps you missed the 4 May 2017 LA Times op-ed by Amanda Knox. She stated that he donated [funds] to her defense and supported her innocence:

Quote:
Yes, Trump donated to my defense. And yes, Trump defended my innocence, recognizing that coercive interrogations produce false testimony authored by the interrogators themselves, a well-studied and documented fact.
However, Knox made clear that she did not agree with Trump's worldview or with his undiplomatic call for a boycott of Italy:

Quote:
But Trump claimed the exact opposite in the Central Park Five case, calling for the death penalty even though the accused teens’ rape convictions rested solely on coerced false confessions. Even now he views them as guilty, years after they were exonerated based on DNA evidence.

Trump recognized me as a fellow American who deserved to be assumed innocent until proven guilty, but he condemned the Central Park Five as “other” — guilty until proven innocent. Loyalty motivated Trump to call for all Americans to boycott Italy, even though, ironically, it only served to amplify anti-American sentiment in the courtroom, stacking the deck against me.
Source: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...504-story.html

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Old 1st October 2022, 11:30 PM   #2715
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
To expunge, or expungement, in US legal terminology, generally refers to the sealing of the arrest record or conviction record of an individual. It is done on the order of a court only if the circumstances of the requestor and the crime meet the requirements of state law. Generally, records of only minor crimes may be expunged. The purpose is to make that record unavailable to anyone doing a background check, for example, for employment or housing, for that person.

See, for example:

https://legaldictionary.net/expungement/

In Italian legal documents such as motivation reports, the quashing of an appealed verdict is signified by the use of the word "annulla" which may be translated as "annuls" or "cancels". For example, in the PQM (For These Reasons) section at the end of the Marasca CSC panel motivation report, the words "annulla senza rinvio la sentenza impugnata" may be translated as "annul the judgment under appeal without referral". There is no sealing of the record, so the text of the judgment under appeal remains available, but, as specified in the appellant court judgment, parts or the whole of its verdict, evidence, and reasoning are quashed (invalidated).

Part of the word game some guilters play is to claim that the Hellmann appeal court judgment was "expunged" by the Chieffi CSC panel, and therefore the Conti - Vecchiotti report no longer exists as evidence. In fact, not all the Hellmann verdict was quashed - its conviction of Knox for calunnia was approved by the Chieffi panel. There was no ruling by Chieffi quashing the C-V report.

The Italian law on Annulment Without Referral is given in CPP Article 620 Annullamento senza rinvio. See, for example:

https://www.altalex.com/documents/ne...per-cassazione

Translations by Google and by Collins Reverso.


Vixen often refers to annulled court verdicts while, at the same time, telling us that annulled court verdicts are irrelevant. It's a wonder she doesn't have to wear a neck brace from all the whiplash.
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:40 PM   #2716
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Perhaps you missed the 4 May 2017 LA Times op-ed by Amanda Knox. She stated that he donated [funds] to her defense and supported her innocence:



However, Knox made clear that she did not agree with Trump's worldview or with his undiplomatic call for a boycott of Italy:



Source: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...504-story.html
I still wonder if he really did as he's infamous for claiming he made donations...or will...but didn't. He never said how much it was and, knowing him, he'd have bragged about how much it was and made sure everyone knew . Was there actually a record of everyone who donated? Maybe Knox just took him at his word that he donated money to her defense fund.

Regardless, Vixen's claim that Trump affected anything is preposterous as is the equally preposterous claim that Clinton or the US government influenced the Italian judiciary. They're nothing but desperate excuses for why the pair was acquitted.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:22 AM   #2717
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
So that's one person (allegedly). How long until we work our way up to the Secretary of State? Their state Senator? Or the President of the United States? Soon?

Strange they bent over backwards with Knox in a massive back channel conspiracy to free this psycho sex killer and set her loose on their own citizens for no reason. But why this one in particular and and not others?

It couldn't be that the evidence against her was just garbage tier and Meredith was in fact killed by the knife carrying criminal at the scene with her blood gushing down his palms and knife marks on his fingers who had a history of breaking and entering. Jeez does that description really sound like the guilty party, no way. Must have been a big international conspiracy.
It only takes ONE person - the judge. Bongiorno (far right politician who hero worships mafia-linked former President Andreotti and now looks to be in a coalition with Mussolini-style Fascist just-elected Meloni) knobbled Bruno or Marasca (or both) and with the US State stepping in, that is all that was needed for the surprise verdict, unprecedented in Italian legal history (apart from Berlusconi and Andreotti).
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:38 AM   #2718
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Article 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits discrimination based on personal characteristics such as "color", "nationality", "national origin", and "race".

If Guede had actually believed that Italy had treated him differently by definitively convicting him for the murder/rape of Kercher than Italy had treated Knox and Sollecito by definitively acquitting them of those crimes, he would have applied to the ECHR seeking to obtain a judgment against Italy. This application would need to have been lodged with the ECHR no later than 6 months after his receipt of the motivation report for his final conviction or final denial of revision.

HUDOC, however, shows no such filing by Guede.

Here's an example of the conclusion in an ECHR case against Italy alleging a violation of Convention Article 14 with Article 6:



Source:

DHAHBI v. ITALY 17120/09

https://hudoc.echr.coe.int/eng?i=001-142504

Here's the text of Convention Article 14:
Be that as it may, all you know about Guede's life experience is what has been written about him by others, and one or two letters and prison diary written by Guede. I am guessing you believe Nina Burleigh's depiction of Guede as an itinerant bum, when in fact his upbringing, after a shaky start, was little different from any other middle-class Italian. Clearly, American Burleigh was revealing her own racist attitudes in assuming he was a lesser person than her heroes, Sollecito and Knox.

On the one hand, Guede's 'memoirs' might indeed be a crock of self-serving ****, like Knox' and Sollecito's (I didn't see anyone criticise their accounts...?) on the other hand, you can't assume his life experiences are invalid if he 'plays the race card', as Stacyhs calls it.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:39 AM   #2719
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I've seen some attempts at virtue signaling before, but yours is just pathetic. Playing the anti-racist defender by falsely representing what I said doesn't work because people here can see right through it. We know you far too well.

FACT: Guede is black.

FACT: Guede killed Meredith Kercher.
FACT: Guede claimed the 'real killer' said "Black man found, Black man
guilty".
FACT: No 'left-handed man wearing a Napapijri jacket and white hat with
a red band' existed.
FACT: Guede lied about what this non-existent 'killer' said.
FACT: Guede attempted to use his race as a motive for why he didn't 'help'
Meredith and fled the county.


FACT: That is Guede playing the race card.

I'm not the one changing the subject. YOU blatantly accused me of racism and I responded.

FIFY
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:40 AM   #2720
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Why do you insist on lying? Is it pathological? I most certainly do NOT think Natale-Hjorth and Elder are 'innocent'. There is no doubt Elder stabbed Rega to death. I have questioned the reliability of Rega partner Andrea Varriale's version of what happenedbecause he has admitted to lying about both officers having their guns at the time. Am I to expect you to claim now that I think all Carabinieri are liars?

But as you said in an earlier post, "Innocent people do not need to lie to the police."
You must have changed your mind then because I distinctly recall you raging about the bent Italian cops railroading the poor sweet American angels.
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