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Tags DeSantis , electioneering , florida , immigration

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Old 30th September 2022, 05:39 PM   #841
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Actually, I kind of do get to be that. Because, like most, I see my personal morality as superior to that of others.
Let me rephrase that. You don't get to flip flop between those roles and have anyone think you're worth listening to. What you think of yourself is your own issue.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:07 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I can call them whatever I like. I am allowed to have an opinion, you know. I am not claiming these migrants are "illegals" in the eyes of the law. Just that they should be.
Your opinion is irrational and worthless, but it is your right to have it. It's my right to point out it is irrational and worthless.
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Old 30th September 2022, 06:25 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Actually, I kind of do get to be that. Because, like most, I see my personal morality as superior to that of others.
Yes, but fortunately for the rest of us, it is consistent with your morality not to care.
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Old 30th September 2022, 07:56 PM   #844
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
. . .DeSantis had them lured to Florida, and then to Mass through means of false promises. And that, just might be, an actual federal crime.
That is something I have wondered about. Since when did governors get to interrupt the federal process of immigration?
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Old 1st October 2022, 12:50 AM   #845
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
That is something I have wondered about. Since when did governors get to interrupt the federal process of immigration?
When they got ideas in their skulls that their nasty prejudices outweigh the imagined prejudices of those they are prejudiced against.
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Old 1st October 2022, 11:02 AM   #846
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Two migrants shot while walking along rural road east of El Paso, Texas

Quote:
One migrant is dead and another is injured following a shooting that took place Tuesday on a road in a rural area southeast of El Paso, Texas.

A New York Times report filed Thursday cites court documents stating the shooting was perpetrated by two men in a pickup truck who pulled up to a group of migrants gathered by a water tank near Sierra Blanca on Tuesday evening. The men allegedly approached the group and opened fire on them, striking two and killing one. Local authorities have arrested two men in connection with the shooting: Michael Shepppard, 60, a local jail warden, and his brother Mark Sheppard, also 60.
I wonder who those two shooters voted for.
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Old 1st October 2022, 01:11 PM   #847
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Welcome to a week ago. It has already been pointed out by stacyhs that they crossed illegally. I mean, like to the Nth degree.

What is this, Groundhog Day??
When they applied for asylum, they went from illegal status to legal status. Your opinion that they are still "illegals" doesn't change the facts.
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Old 1st October 2022, 01:15 PM   #848
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
I'm thinking these two have a Warped sense of morality and justice.
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Old 1st October 2022, 01:22 PM   #849
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Surely not the person who suggested the "2nd Amendment solution" before?
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Old 1st October 2022, 02:29 PM   #850
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DeSantis Martha's Vineyard Stunt

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
When they applied for asylum, they went from illegal status to legal status. Your opinion that they are still "illegals" doesn't change the facts.

It’s a bit more complicated than that, from the research I’ve done.

The law says that they can apply for asylum/refugee status, and once that is granted (after the hearings, not when they apply) they’re considered legal retroactively to the time of entry to the U.S.

We’ve also signed onto an international agreement that people who have applied for refugee/asylum status should not be deported until they determination is made. However, it’s not a self-executing treaty, meaning there’s no force of law…we’d have to pass s law to make that part of the legal code.

Entry to the U.S. at a non-designated entry point, or without proper documentation, is s crime under U.S. law.

So this is basically a situation where some in the U.S. are basically thumbing their nose to international agreements, our lawmakers are not enacting the laws to live up to that agreement, and several people with chips on their shoulder are using this loophole to have refugee/asylum seekers charged and deported.


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Old 1st October 2022, 02:54 PM   #851
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
When they applied for asylum, they went from illegal status to legal status. Your opinion that they are still "illegals" doesn't change the facts.
Based on numbers that I cited and the process details that newyorkguy cited it is clear the vast majority of asylum seekers are never even alleged to have entered illegally. Further, the judge they see only rules on their asylum application. He makes no determination of innocence/guilt. He's not even in the right branch of government to do that. And he doesn't "make them" legal, they were never alleged to be illegal in the first place (I'll add a small twist on this at the end of the post).

Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Entry to the U.S. at a non-designated entry point, or without proper documentation, is s crime under U.S. law.

So this is basically a situation where some in the U.S. are basically thumbing their nose to international agreements, our lawmakers are not enacting the laws to live up to that agreement, and several people with chips on their shoulder are using this loophole to have refugee/asylum seekers charged and deported.
See the numbers I cited. Unless they are wrong it doesn't appear that immigration is enforcing that "crime" like people here have been insisting. It seems clear from the numbers that charge is being held for people who evade inspection or have other shadiness going on.

Since I just have the numbers I can't tell why immigration is doing this. They might be doing it because international law trumps US law. Or maybe they are doing it because it would be stupidly perverse to charge people who are sitting on the ground waiting in line for border patrol.

I only care about current situation at the moment, the situation was different under Trump but I'm not clear on the details.

BTW As I said above the asylum judge doesn't rule on any charges you might have from entering the country. That's a separate judge that relatively few people are facing now. If you go thought that process you are likely convicted (most plead guilty apparently). First time improper entry is a misdemeanor charge that might draw a fine or up to six months. It doesn't stop you from being admitted to the country. If the asylum judge grants your application you come in and you still have that misdemeanor on your record. A much later step might reverse that, but your initial hearing that lets you in doesn't. You're just a legal documented person who just happens to have a conviction on your record.

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 1st October 2022 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 1st October 2022, 03:30 PM   #852
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
See the numbers I cited. Unless they are wrong it doesn't appear that immigration is enforcing that "crime" like people here have been insisting. It seems clear from the numbers that charge is being held for people who evade inspection or have other shadiness going on.
No, it’s not consistent. The ones coming in via authorized ports are already covered, for the most part. But even those coming in outside ports are supposed to not be deported, according to treaties we’ve agreed to. Most places they aren’t charged, but the law, as currently written, allows it (for those whose entry falls in the improper entry laws, which IIRC is basically those coming in outside an entry port). Which is why I used the word some in my post.

Basically, I agree with you. Asylum seekers that cross outside designated ports can be charged with improper entry, but most aren’t. And the agreements we signed say they shouldn’t be deported, but we haven’t passed the laws to enforce that yet.


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Old 1st October 2022, 04:01 PM   #853
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So if we stipulate that it was a misdemeanor to cross the border in certain ways, people who did it committed a misdemeanor. But if they are not currently facing charges or fleeing prosecution, they are not committing it now. The misdemeanor is not who, or what, they are.

Considering the number of things we might have done in our lives (smoked a joint in college, carried a knife with a blade a centimeter too long, drank one too many beers one evening, etc. etc.?) I think it appropriate to remember that "illegal" is an adjective, not a noun of existential description - an ugly neologism even for those on whom you wish harm and humiliation.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:22 PM   #854
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
He went to Harvard. He's evil, not stupid.
I personally know two really stupid people from my graduating class that went to Harvard. They had family legacies.
The ivies are not actually that academically exclusive; they are very financially exclusive.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:27 PM   #855
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Now it's all migrants? "Migrants" are definitely not confined to border towns and are mostly free people who can go anywhere they want. You've presented no evidence that they are even a burden.
They are an economic boon, in fact.

Again I ask: Why do all republicans hate free-market economies?
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Old 2nd October 2022, 01:52 PM   #856
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
That is something I have wondered about. Since when did governors get to interrupt the federal process of immigration?
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
When they got ideas in their skulls that their nasty prejudices outweigh the imagined prejudices of those they are prejudiced against.
Seriously, If DeSantis's stunt is okay, then why can't a governor interrupt a federal school lunch program he or she has proclaimed to be unfair, unconstitutional and dictatorial?

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Old 2nd October 2022, 06:56 PM   #857
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Originally Posted by autumn1971 View Post
They are an economic boon, in fact?
Not only that, but they are willing to do will do the jobs that Americans refuse to do; Americans that would rather be on unemployment than do.

Fewer migrants >>> smaller harvest >>> low supply >>> food scarcity and high prices.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 09:07 PM   #858
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not only that, but they are willing to do will do the jobs that Americans refuse to do; Americans that would rather be on unemployment than do.

Fewer migrants >>> smaller harvest >>> low supply >>> food scarcity and high prices.
Let's be careful about stereotypes here. The migrants DeSantis targeted are primarily Venezuelan I believe? I posted citations earlier that show the US as being the beneficiary of a brain drain from Venezuela. My citations were a few years old but they showed Venezuelan migrants to be capable of jobs most Americans can't do.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 09:26 PM   #859
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Let's be careful about stereotypes here. The migrants DeSantis targeted are primarily Venezuelan I believe? I posted citations earlier that show the US as being the beneficiary of a brain drain from Venezuela. My citations were a few years old but they showed Venezuelan migrants to be capable of jobs most Americans can't do.
Fair enough... if that is true, then that makes migrants even more of an economic boon.
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Old 2nd October 2022, 09:54 PM   #860
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The woman who recruited the migrants has been identified:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/ma...rta/index.html
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Old 2nd October 2022, 11:38 PM   #861
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
The woman who recruited the migrants has been identified:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/ma...rta/index.html
What is her relationship to DeSantis? And Abbott?
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Old 3rd October 2022, 12:04 AM   #862
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
The woman who recruited the migrants has been identified:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/02/us/ma...rta/index.html
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
What is her relationship to DeSantis? And Abbott?
Follow the money. Find out who was paying her and we'll have an answer to that. As if we can't already guess.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 05:01 AM   #863
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Follow the money. Find out who was paying her and we'll have an answer to that. As if we can't already guess.
Originally Posted by Liberal Outlet
One migrant who had been living on the streets of San Antonio, Texas, told CNN that a woman named “Perla” offered him clothes, food and money in exchange to find other people who would go on a flight to Massachusetts.

Look at this. Turns out these people were helped into a better situation.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 05:07 AM   #864
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Look at this. Turns out these people were helped into a better situation.
LOL. Certainly not what DeSantis planned or expected, hey!
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Old 3rd October 2022, 05:31 AM   #865
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
LOL. Certainly not what DeSantis planned or expected, hey!
Actually, if you think about it, DeSantis couldn't lose. If (as he probably expected) the immigrants were given the cold shoulder by Martha's Vineyard, he could crow about those hypocritical NIMBY libruls. But when they received a warm welcome and were provided for, he could turn it around and claim he sent them to "a better place" and thus helped them become better off. Heads I win, tails you lose!
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Old 3rd October 2022, 05:37 AM   #866
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Actually, if you think about it, DeSantis couldn't lose. If (as he probably expected) the immigrants were given the cold shoulder by Martha's Vineyard, he could crow about those hypocritical NIMBY libruls. But when they received a warm welcome and were provided for, he could turn it around and claim he sent them to "a better place" and thus helped them become better off. Heads I win, tails you lose!

Like I keep saying, politically smart.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 05:42 AM   #867
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Like I keep saying, politically smarty.
In some ways, I have to agree.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 05:51 AM   #868
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Like I keep saying, politically smart.
And all he had to do was strand a busload of people. I feel like there's a name for people that gain political advantage by mistreating others.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 06:09 AM   #869
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
And all he had to do was strand a busload of people. I feel like there's a name for people that gain political advantage by mistreating others.
To be clear, I'm not saying DeSantis can make any claim to morality or decency. But in terms of assuming Trump's maggot-ridden mantle as the leader of Dirtbag America, it was probably an effective move. Whether or not that strategy ever translates into long-term nationwide success remains to be seen.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 06:10 AM   #870
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Look at this. Turns out these people were helped into a better situation.
It's sad to watch the explaining away of government (i.e. the state of Florida) sponsored human trafficking as a charitable act because the victims were lured into the subterfuge by offers of clothes, food and cash.

What next? "Hey, little girl, would you like some candy?"

What else might we expect from those who have dehumanized migrants and fomented violence against them?
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Old 3rd October 2022, 08:11 AM   #871
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Actually, if you think about it, DeSantis couldn't lose. If (as he probably expected) the immigrants were given the cold shoulder by Martha's Vineyard, he could crow about those hypocritical NIMBY libruls. But when they received a warm welcome and were provided for, he could turn it around and claim he sent them to "a better place" and thus helped them become better off. Heads I win, tails you lose!
But also kidnapping and human trafficking, assuming you see refugees as human, of course.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 12:12 PM   #872
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
But also kidnapping and human trafficking, assuming you see refugees as human, of course.
Originally Posted by arayder View Post
It's sad to watch the explaining away of government (i.e. the state of Florida) sponsored human trafficking as a charitable act because the victims were lured into the subterfuge by offers of clothes, food and cash.

What next? "Hey, little girl, would you like some candy?"

What else might we expect from those who have dehumanized migrants and fomented violence against them?
Indeed! When you offer inducements and benefits to people to encourage them to board a train, plane or vehicle to specific location, and then send them to a location other than the one to told them, a location where there are none of the benefits you claimed, and you don't follow through with the promised inducements, that is human trafficking any way you slice it, regardless of the outcome for the victims. Even if you make them better off, its still human trafficking.

If a private citizen had done what DeSantis did, they would already be in jail awaiting trial.

Warp12's opinion that the asylum-seekers 'should just shut up and stop complaining because they are now better off', is analogous to an abusive man's opinion that his wife 'should just shut up and stop complaining because she is now better off'. After all, he pays the bills and puts a roof over her head --- as he smacks her around again for talking back to him.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 12:47 PM   #873
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DeSnortis has made himself briefly agreeable to the worst elements in a diminishing subset of a ramshackle political party that represents a minority of citizens. He did this in collaboration with one of the least popular and most broadly criticized of US governors. We're told that this was smart of him.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:10 PM   #874
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It was also "politically smart" of Hitler to give the German people someone to blame all their troubles on.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:12 PM   #875
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It was also "politically smart" of Hitler to give the German people someone to blame all their troubles on.

While we are Godwinning, what is the complaint about that? The method either worked or it didn't.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:15 PM   #876
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
While we are Godwinning, what is the complaint about that? The method either worked or it didn't.
Godwinning or not, it's the truth. Somehow, I'm not surprised you don't see what the complaint is about that.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:26 PM   #877
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
While we are Godwinning, what is the complaint about that? The method either worked or it didn't.
I think the rule about 'Godwinning' ended the minute Stubby McBonespurs called neo-Nazis "fine people" (and he did... none of this bunk about "not everyone", because every one of the right wing protesters was comfortable protesting under flags with the swastika).

If the leader of your party approves of nazis, and you remain a member of that party (even supporting said leader), any accusation of naziism can no longer be dismissed by the rule of Godwin.
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:30 PM   #878
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Nothing to see here... nothing suspicious. Move along...

From: The Guardian
Vertol Systems Inc, an Oregon-based aviation company that DeSantis used to fly asylum seekers to the affluent, liberal-leaning Massachusetts island, has connections to DeSantis’s political allies and has donated money to various campaigns...DeSantis’ administration has not released details of the contract it awarded to Vertol, or disclosed why Vertol was selected to conduct the relocation program, or answered inquiries as to whether multiple bids were solicited in regards to the program, as is required by law

Maybe if the flight information was contained on a laptop hard drive dropped off at a computer repair shop the republicans might actually be concerned...
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:32 PM   #879
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Nothing to see here... nothing suspicious. Move along...

From: The Guardian
Vertol Systems Inc, an Oregon-based aviation company that DeSantis used to fly asylum seekers to the affluent, liberal-leaning Massachusetts island, has connections to DeSantis’s political allies and has donated money to various campaigns...DeSantis’ administration has not released details of the contract it awarded to Vertol, or disclosed why Vertol was selected to conduct the relocation program, or answered inquiries as to whether multiple bids were solicited in regards to the program, as is required by law

Maybe if the flight information was contained on a laptop hard drive dropped off at a computer repair shop the republicans might actually be concerned...
Wasn't Vertol the only US aviation company that flies Russian aircraft?
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Old 3rd October 2022, 11:40 PM   #880
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Nothing to see here... nothing suspicious. Move along...

From: The Guardian
Vertol Systems Inc, an Oregon-based aviation company that DeSantis used to fly asylum seekers to the affluent, liberal-leaning Massachusetts island, has connections to DeSantis’s political allies and has donated money to various campaigns...DeSantis’ administration has not released details of the contract it awarded to Vertol, or disclosed why Vertol was selected to conduct the relocation program, or answered inquiries as to whether multiple bids were solicited in regards to the program, as is required by law

Maybe if the flight information was contained on a laptop hard drive dropped off at a computer repair shop the republicans might actually be concerned...
Why does this not surprise me?

Quote:
Documents show James Montgomerie is the owner of Vertol Systems Company Inc., an aviation business first registered in Oregon back in 1996, and later converted to a Florida business in 2021.

According to campaign finance records from OpenSecrets, Montgomerie contributed $5,000 in 2017 to the North Florida Neighbors Super PAC in support of Republican candidate Neal Dunn for Congress. Montgomerie’s company also made a separate $5,000 contribution.

One of Dunn’s platforms as outlined on the North Florida Neighbors website is stopping illegal immigration.

Montgomerie is also listed as a $2,700 contributor to Matt Gaetz’s 2016 campaign for a U.S. House seat.
Quote:
10 Investigates also found where Vertol Systems Company is listed as a managing member of a Florida-based company called Zeppelin Holdings.

According to the Department of Justice, the owner of that company, Jay Odom, was sentenced to six months in federal prison in 2013 after he was convicted for “causing a presidential campaign committee to make a false statement to the Federal Election Commission (FEC)."
Quote:
Odom admitted he knew this activity was illegal, the DOJ said in 2013.
https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/in...6-22a3db1ccdf9
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