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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Wisconsin politics

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Old 13th December 2018, 08:39 AM   #161
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It wasn't a compliment.
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Old 13th December 2018, 12:11 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The past decade should have put this "both sides" nonsense to rest.
That is just because the GOP has had the power. I think the Dems are just as capable of shady maneuvers when they are in power.
But keep those ideological blinders on...
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Old 13th December 2018, 03:56 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is just because the GOP has had the power. I think the Dems are just as capable of shady maneuvers when they are in power.
But keep those ideological blinders on...
Sure, they are capable. But when have they in any significant way? On a national level? On a state level? Are they doing it in California? Oregon? Will they do it if they become the party with less popular ideas?

I think they aren't good at it because it is against their nature. They don't play dirty like the Republicans do.
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Old 13th December 2018, 05:14 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
That is just because the GOP has had the power. I think the Dems are just as capable of shady maneuvers when they are in power.
But keep those ideological blinders on...
Sure, because what someone might do is every bit as valid as what someone else actually is doing. LOL!
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Old 13th December 2018, 09:37 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Sure, because what someone might do is every bit as valid as what someone else actually is doing. LOL!
Yeah, this is just stupid. "I'm going to let the side currently in power do what they want, because it is theoretically possible that the other side could have screwed up just as bad if they were in power". Is it really so difficult to understand that some times one side is just horribly wrong?

Example:

One side: "We want to exterminate all minorities".

Other side: "What the ****, you are objectively ****** people, and you need to be stopped by all means necessary".

Centrists: "Hey guys, no need for name-calling, let's talk about it and make a compromise, maybe a little genocide but not a lot?"

Whoops, looks like the "centrists" just got your whole family killed. Oh well, all in the name of "civility" and both-sideism, right? Totally worth it.
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Old 13th December 2018, 11:47 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Sure, because what someone might do is every bit as valid as what someone else actually is doing. LOL!
To be fair... a number of Democrats have been involved in shady business even recently. It's well worth remembering that one's arbitrarily chosen party isn't everything when it comes to character and action. Democrats should certainly be wary of blind partisanship, just like Republicans should be wary of blind partisanship.

After that, though, it's worth remembering that, in the current state of affairs, the Democratic Party is fundamentally different than the Republican Party in many, many ways. The Democratic Party of the present has dramatically more incentive to encourage and support "good" behavior than the Republican Party, for example, for a number of reasons. They certainly still do have problems, especially when it comes to the industry ties that a number of them have, but such industry ties problems seem to pale in comparison to the issues that the Republicans have there.
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Old 14th December 2018, 04:43 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
To be fair... a number of Democrats have been involved in shady business even recently. It's well worth remembering that one's arbitrarily chosen party isn't everything when it comes to character and action. Democrats should certainly be wary of blind partisanship, just like Republicans should be wary of blind partisanship.

After that, though, it's worth remembering that, in the current state of affairs, the Democratic Party is fundamentally different than the Republican Party in many, many ways. The Democratic Party of the present has dramatically more incentive to encourage and support "good" behavior than the Republican Party, for example, for a number of reasons. They certainly still do have problems, especially when it comes to the industry ties that a number of them have, but such industry ties problems seem to pale in comparison to the issues that the Republicans have there.
Here is an example of Democratic-side shady dealings.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...206-story.html

Illinois politics is a counter-example to the Saintly Democrats theme.

The shadiness here has less to do with industry ties and more with real-estate, patronage and pensions, IMO.
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Old 14th December 2018, 12:36 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Illinois politics is a counter-example to the Saintly Democrats theme.
Democrats as a whole don't need to be saintly to point of that Republicans are taking corruption and general unethical behavior to the next level.
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Old 14th December 2018, 12:45 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Here is an example of Democratic-side shady dealings.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...206-story.html

Illinois politics is a counter-example to the Saintly Democrats theme.

The shadiness here has less to do with industry ties and more with real-estate, patronage and pensions, IMO.
One of a number of examples. The thing is... Democrats overall are "saintly" in comparison to much of the shenanigans of the Republican Party. That doesn't make them objectively saintly or automatically better than a person with an R affiliation.
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Old 14th December 2018, 01:31 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Democrats as a whole don't need to be saintly to point of that Republicans are taking corruption and general unethical behavior to the next level.
I don't disagree. However I recommend Democrats also clean house.

As for Republicans, I'm thinking it's more of a teardown situation.
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Old 14th December 2018, 01:42 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I don't disagree. However I recommend Democrats also clean house.

As for Republicans, I'm thinking it's more of a teardown situation.
My opinions exactly.
My point is that the kind of crap the GOP is pulling in Wiconsin is wrong, regardless of ideology or party. For a group of liberals to do this to an incoming conservative administration would be just as wrong. "The ends justifies the means" is bad, period, regardless of the ends.
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Old 14th December 2018, 01:53 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
My opinions exactly.
My point is that the kind of crap the GOP is pulling in Wiconsin is wrong, regardless of ideology or party. For a group of liberals to do this to an incoming conservative administration would be just as wrong. "The ends justifies the means" is bad, period, regardless of the ends.
I dunno. I've always thought the ends do justify the means...but one has to consider all the ends, not just the immediate ones. Situations like this, the ends are not just "we get to hold power a bit longer" but also "we're removing a lot of the restraints that prevent others from using power in ways we wouldn't like, too."

Or in other words, if the ends don't justify the means there isn't reason to do anything. I think a better phrase is "Don't implement the means without understanding all the ends"
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:14 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Yeah, this whole "enlightened centrist" thing is getting pretty old.

As if not picking a side somehow elevates you above the riff-raff and absolves you of guilt.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly the underlying sentiment. Although it could be a more internal motivation, too; a form of ego preservation. You never have to question your choices when the side you chose does something wrong, as long as you never pick a side.
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Old 15th December 2018, 07:44 AM   #174
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It gives me a glimmer of hope that not all Republicans actively oppose democratic principles, e.g. John Kasich.

Originally Posted by Kasich
Itís outrageous. I mean, you lost the election! Okay? When you lose, you say you lost. You donít go and try to reverse the election by manipulation. Iím frankly shocked at what is going on here. You talk about the divisions and cynicism ó so I win the election you try to take my power away? What are you kidding?

These power grabs are just outrageous. You lost, okay? You lost. Accept it, move on, try to win tomorrow. Brianna, honestly it flabbergasts me to see what people are willing to do in pure partisanship and pure power.
It's unfortunate that among the present day GOP and the sycophants who enable them, this sentiment is the exception.
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Old 15th December 2018, 12:40 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I'm pretty sure that's exactly the underlying sentiment. Although it could be a more internal motivation, too; a form of ego preservation. You never have to question your choices when the side you chose does something wrong, as long as you never pick a side.
I think it's more because Democratic and Republican aren't 'sides', they're the two biggest parties in a slew of other parties. A true centrist may find that the Democratic party most closely resembles one's own political leanings, or both may be hopelessly to the right of one's own position. Someone who feels both parties are insane will obviously not 'pick a side', because neither offering is satisfactory.
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Old 15th December 2018, 01:34 PM   #176
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Wisconsin --> 2:20:

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Old 15th December 2018, 01:45 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It gives me a glimmer of hope that not all Republicans actively oppose democratic principles, e.g. John Kasich.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasich
Itís outrageous. I mean, you lost the election! Okay? When you lose, you say you lost. You donít go and try to reverse the election by manipulation. Iím frankly shocked at what is going on here. You talk about the divisions and cynicism ó so I win the election you try to take my power away? What are you kidding?

These power grabs are just outrageous. You lost, okay? You lost. Accept it, move on, try to win tomorrow. Brianna, honestly it flabbergasts me to see what people are willing to do in pure partisanship and pure power.

It's unfortunate that among the present day GOP and the sycophants who enable them, this sentiment is the exception.
Kasich was the only 2016 GOP presidential candidate that I had respected. If he had won, we would not see the country in the condition it's in now.
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Old 15th December 2018, 03:32 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
I think it's more because Democratic and Republican aren't 'sides', they're the two biggest parties in a slew of other parties. A true centrist may find that the Democratic party most closely resembles one's own political leanings, or both may be hopelessly to the right of one's own position. Someone who feels both parties are insane will obviously not 'pick a side', because neither offering is satisfactory.
If both parties are felt to be to the right of one's own position, I don't believe they can be called 'centrist' at all. Centrists don't take sides but people on the left sure do.

That's me, at any rate; I'm way to the left of most posters here, and all I see is attitudes like Joe's doing nothing but hindering actual positive change in favor of trying to maintain some sort of status quo.
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Old 15th December 2018, 11:23 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Kasich was the only 2016 GOP presidential candidate that I had respected. If he had won, we would not see the country in the condition it's in now.
Kasich never had a chance of winning. But he did manage to act as a spoiler to the only candidate who did have a chance of beating Trump. So you can thank Kasich for that.
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Old 16th December 2018, 01:21 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Kasich never had a chance of winning. But he did manage to act as a spoiler to the only candidate who did have a chance of beating Trump. So you can thank Kasich for that.
Of course he never had chance. He wasn't despicable enough.
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Old 16th December 2018, 04:27 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I'm pretty sure that's exactly the underlying sentiment. Although it could be a more internal motivation, too; a form of ego preservation. You never have to question your choices when the side you chose does something wrong, as long as you never pick a side.
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
If both parties are felt to be to the right of one's own position, I don't believe they can be called 'centrist' at all. Centrists don't take sides but people on the left sure do.

That's me, at any rate; I'm way to the left of most posters here, and all I see is attitudes like Joe's doing nothing but hindering actual positive change in favor of trying to maintain some sort of status quo.
This assumes the alt-right narrative is correct, that Republicans are all right of center and Democrats are all left of center. This is only true if the center is arbitrarily decided as 'between these two parties' and disconnected from the political landscape---which is massively unfair to anyone who doesn't base their politics entirely on those two parties.
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Old 16th December 2018, 08:32 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
That's me, at any rate; I'm way to the left of most posters here, and all I see is attitudes like Joe's doing nothing but hindering actual positive change in favor of trying to maintain some sort of status quo.
That's the intent: those in power wish to maintain the status quo because anything else might take them out of power. They're willing to tweak it slightly to make improvements that benefit themselves--the disagreement between parties is what tweaks to make to yield which benefits. But they'll never do anything that would risk their own place at the top.
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Old 16th December 2018, 01:17 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Kasich was the only 2016 GOP presidential candidate that I had respected. If he had won, we would not see the country in the condition it's in now.
This is my sentiment as well
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Old 16th December 2018, 01:27 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Kasich was the only 2016 GOP presidential candidate that I had respected. If he had won, we would not see the country in the condition it's in now.
This is my sentiment as well
I think you're underestimating how much of the national issues lay at Mitch McConnell's feet.
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Old 16th December 2018, 01:53 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
Oh its okay then. Using tax payer money and government resources to fight obvious petty obstructionisim. Democracy doesn't matter when it is your side that loses the election, especially when your side has spent so much time and effort rigging the system with gerrymandering.
republickers are guilty of so much. They should all feel shame for the vileness that they represent
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Old 16th December 2018, 02:19 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Kasich never had a chance of winning. But he did manage to act as a spoiler to the only candidate who did have a chance of beating Trump. So you can thank Kasich for that.
Kasich not having a chance speaks more to the sorry state the Republican party has come to than to anything to do with actions by Kasich. The party rank and file embraced populism and religious zeolotry.
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Old 16th December 2018, 02:43 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I think David Frum summed it up best, ďIf conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.Ē
Hasn't that already happened?
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:13 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It gives me a glimmer of hope that not all Republicans actively oppose democratic principles, e.g. John Kasich.

It's unfortunate that among the present day GOP and the sycophants who enable them, this sentiment is the exception.
RINO.
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:21 PM   #189
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I haven't reviewed this thread much, but I hope everyone here takes note of the wonderful VENN DIAGRAM the Rpublican governor trotted out, to prove not only that his measure is benign, but that Wisconsin legislators' grasp of logic is the bestest and bigliest.
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Old 16th December 2018, 03:35 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I haven't reviewed this thread much, but I hope everyone here takes note of the wonderful VENN DIAGRAM the Rpublican governor trotted out, to prove not only that his measure is benign, but that Wisconsin legislators' grasp of logic is the bestest and bigliest.
Like Trump, Scott is his own worst enemy. They both seem intent on proving themselves idiots all by their big boy selves.
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Old 17th December 2018, 05:04 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I haven't reviewed this thread much, but I hope everyone here takes note of the wonderful VENN DIAGRAM the Rpublican governor trotted out, to prove not only that his measure is benign, but that Wisconsin legislators' grasp of logic is the bestest and bigliest.
I searched for images and was not disappointed.
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Old 19th December 2018, 07:13 AM   #192
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Michigan is also getting in on the lame-duck action. They have proposed legislation that would severely kneecap citizen ballot initiatives after a series of progressive policies were instated via that method during the recent election.

Michigan taking out the middle man and directly attacking the voter because they don't vote correctly. The GOP is well on it's way to instating itself as a party of minority rule.

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...rly-impossible
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Old 20th December 2018, 12:58 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Michigan is also getting in on the lame-duck action. They have proposed legislation that would severely kneecap citizen ballot initiatives after a series of progressive policies were instated via that method during the recent election.

Michigan taking out the middle man and directly attacking the voter because they don't vote correctly. The GOP is well on it's way to instating itself as a party of minority rule.

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits...rly-impossible
I wish I'd written down what my father said during my last (not as in "the most recent" but as in "the last") time I talked politics with him, because it basically boiled down to "People in cities don't vote the right way enough to be counted."

This from a man who literally built a framed 4x10 Constitution to hang on his basement wall.
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Old 20th December 2018, 09:57 PM   #194
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
I wish I'd written down what my father said during my last (not as in "the most recent" but as in "the last") time I talked politics with him, because it basically boiled down to "People in cities don't vote the right way enough to be counted."

This from a man who literally built a framed 4x10 Constitution to hang on his basement wall.
Republicans think that only Republicans should be able to vote.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:11 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
I don't disagree. However I recommend Democrats also clean house.

As for Republicans, I'm thinking it's more of a teardown situation.

Hmmm, perhaps, but how about this?
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Old 30th December 2018, 04:14 PM   #196
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On the bright side, Michigan republicans failed in their most attempts at powergrab. On the other hand, they did succeed in getting some things through:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ck-snyder-veto
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Old 30th December 2018, 07:46 PM   #197
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
On the bright side, Michigan republicans failed in their most attempts at powergrab. On the other hand, they did succeed in getting some things through:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ck-snyder-veto
Why do they hate democracy mob rule so much?
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Old 17th January 2019, 08:30 PM   #198
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Federal Judge Strikes Down Lame-Duck Changes To Wisconsin Voting Laws

A federal judge has struck down controversial restrictions on early voting in Wisconsin
Quote:
that were passed during the state Legislature's lame-duck session last month.

The restrictions limited early voting in Wisconsin to the two weeks before an election. In recent years, cities including the Democratic strongholds of Milwaukee and Madison have offered several weeks of early voting.
NPR: https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/68632...3ukhcoJxniV3eA
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Old 17th January 2019, 10:16 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
If both parties are felt to be to the right of one's own position, I don't believe they can be called 'centrist' at all. Centrists don't take sides but people on the left sure do.

That's me, at any rate; I'm way to the left of most posters here, and all I see is attitudes like Joe's doing nothing but hindering actual positive change in favor of trying to maintain some sort of status quo.
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Old 18th January 2019, 10:19 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Sure, they are capable. But when have they in any significant way? On a national level? On a state level? Are they doing it in California? Oregon? Will they do it if they become the party with less popular ideas?

I think they aren't good at it because it is against their nature. They don't play dirty like the Republicans do.
They don't play as dirty as they should, because of it.
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