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Tags donald trump , immigration issues , Trump controversies

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Old 29th December 2018, 04:22 PM   #601
Brainache
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I'll just point out that the US was founded by immigrants and their families.
Also not true. This forum is up to its teeth in propaganda.
Are you saying that the US was founded by Indians? Where did all those white people come from?

Last edited by Brainache; 29th December 2018 at 04:24 PM. Reason: included quote for context
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Old 29th December 2018, 04:25 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Are you saying that the US was founded by Indians?
No
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Where did all those white people come from?
Europe
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Old 29th December 2018, 04:28 PM   #603
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
... Europe
And yet somehow they weren't immigrants...

Yep. I'm in the No-Go Zone...
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Old 29th December 2018, 04:29 PM   #604
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
And yet somehow they weren't immigrants...
Correct, they were settlers.
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Old 29th December 2018, 04:36 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Correct, they were settlers.
Settlers who migrated from other countries. Many of the people who came to America were fleeing persecution. Many were forced to come in chains as Convicts or Slaves. Many were from places other than Europe. All of them were immigrants.

Now we can get stuck into the very important and interesting debate about the precise definition of the word "immigrant".

That will be fascinating and highly informative for all concerned...
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Old 29th December 2018, 04:45 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Settlers who migrated from other countries. Many of the people who came to America were fleeing persecution. Many were forced to come in chains as Convicts or Slaves. Many were from places other than Europe. All of them were immigrants.

Now we can get stuck into the very important and interesting debate about the precise definition of the word "immigrant".

That will be fascinating and highly informative for all concerned...
They were explorers, settlers, conquerors, not immigrants......

A man calling himself a skeptic can't distinguish between settling unconquered land and immigrating to a country with a post-industrial infrastructure with tax-payer subsidized healthcare.
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Old 29th December 2018, 05:13 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
They were explorers, settlers, conquerors, not immigrants......
People who migrated to America from elsewhere (and their families) are of course immigrants. Some of them were Clerks, or builders, or bank-tellers, or chimney sweeps... etc. They weren't all noble square-jawed heroes, some of them were criminals who brought diseases (gasp!). Most of them were poor people looking for a better life. They (the majority) arrived when there were big cities on the east coast, started in poverty and worked to improve the place. It's what immigrants do.

Quote:
A man calling himself a skeptic can't distinguish between settling unconquered land and immigrating to a country with a post-industrial infrastructure with tax-payer subsidized healthcare.
I see that as an argument for letting people in so that they can work legally and contribute by paying tax.

Also "settling unconquered land" seems like an odd way to describe the process of forcibly removing indigenous people and taking their land.
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Old 29th December 2018, 05:33 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
People who migrated to America from elsewhere (and their families) are of course immigrants. Some of them were Clerks, or builders, or bank-tellers, or chimney sweeps... etc. They weren't all noble square-jawed heroes, some of them were criminals who brought diseases (gasp!). Most of them were poor people looking for a better life. They (the majority) arrived when there were big cities on the east coast, started in poverty and worked to improve the place. It's what immigrants do.



I see that as an argument for letting people in so that they can work legally and contribute by paying tax.

Also "settling unconquered land" seems like an odd way to describe the process of forcibly removing indigenous people and taking their land.
I'm not surprised you like to go off on these random derails of comic book depictions of the US.

Last edited by Baylor; 29th December 2018 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 29th December 2018, 05:50 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I'm not surprised you like to off on these random derails of comic book depictions of the US.
You could try to educate me as to how the Europeans who came to America weren't immigrants (even though they migrated there).
You could try to educate me about the non-existence of big cities when the majority of immigrants arrived in America (although there were big cities there from the 18th century onward).
You could try to educate me on how it wasn't these immigrants and their families that built the US into the global force that it became in the 20th century (although that would be absurd and contrary to your own beliefs)
You could quibble about the definition of "immigrant" (but you would be wrong).
Quote:
immigrant
NOUN
A person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/immigrant
You could admit that you see the word "immigrant" as an insult (thereby revealing your own xenophobic view of the world).
OR
You could chose to characterise my thoughtful replies as "comic book depictions" and dismiss them (thereby avoiding making any kind of substantive reply).

I'm not surprised you chose the latter.

Have a nice day.

ETA: You could argue that the "trail of tears" is from a comic book, but that isn't where I learned about it (plus, what kind of comics are you reading?).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
Quote:
The Trail of Tears was a series of forced relocations of Native Americans in the United States from their ancestral homelands in the Southeastern United States, to areas to the west (usually west of the Mississippi River) that had been designated as Indian Territory. The forced relocations were carried out by government authorities following the passage of the Indian Removal Act in 1830. The relocated peoples suffered from exposure, disease, and starvation while en route to their new designated reserve, and many died before reaching their destinations. The forced removals included members of the Cherokee, Muscogee (Creek), Seminole, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Ponca, and Ho-Chunk/Winnebago nations. The phrase "Trail of Tears" originates from a description of the removal of many Native American tribes, including the infamous Cherokee Nation relocation in 1838.[1][2][3]

Last edited by Brainache; 29th December 2018 at 06:04 PM. Reason: Forgot a major point.
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Old 29th December 2018, 06:13 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Correct, they were settlers.
If by "settlers" you mean "genocidal invaders", then sure.
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Old 29th December 2018, 06:59 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
You could try to educate me as to how the Europeans who came to America weren't immigrants (even though they migrated there).
You could try to educate me about the non-existence of big cities when the majority of immigrants arrived in America (although there were big cities there from the 18th century onward).
You could try to educate me on how it wasn't these immigrants and their families that built the US into the global force that it became in the 20th century (although that would be absurd and contrary to your own beliefs)
You could quibble about the definition of "immigrant" (but you would be wrong).
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/immigrant
You could admit that you see the word "immigrant" as an insult (thereby revealing your own xenophobic view of the world).
OR
You could chose to characterise my thoughtful replies as "comic book depictions" and dismiss them (thereby avoiding making any kind of substantive reply).

I'm not surprised you chose the latter.

Have a nice day.

ETA: You could argue that the "trail of tears" is from a comic book, but that isn't where I learned about it (plus, what kind of comics are you reading?).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
Or I could be annoyed by your stupid derails. Trail of Tears (you just now learned about that?) was well after the US had been founded. Making your pointless derail even more pointless.
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Old 29th December 2018, 07:22 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
They were explorers, settlers, conquerors, not immigrants......

A man calling himself a skeptic can't distinguish between settling unconquered land and immigrating to a country with a post-industrial infrastructure with tax-payer subsidized healthcare.
What rule have you made up that makes the purpose of immigration a qualification for whether there's immigration? They left one place and moved permanently to another. That's immigration, whether or not they were conquerors, heroes, villains, pioneers, thieves, refugees or whatever.

Our president has been calling these latest immigrants "invaders." Well, maybe they're not immigrants at all.
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Old 29th December 2018, 07:24 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Or I could be annoyed by your stupid derails. Trail of Tears (you just now learned about that?) was well after the US had been founded. Making your pointless derail even more pointless.
I've known about the trail of tears for a long time. The legislation was passed in 1830, about 50 years after the US war of Independence ended. That is within the living memory of people who fought alongside George Washington.

This isn't a derail, it is a reminder to people like you that the US has, throughout its existence, benefited greatly from immigrants and their families. This current mania for vilifying people seeking a better life in America is just bizarre hypocrisy.
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Old 29th December 2018, 07:27 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I've known about the trail of tears for a long time. The legislation was passed in 1830, about 50 years after the US war of Independence ended. That is within the living memory of people who fought alongside George Washington.

This isn't a derail, it is a reminder to people like you that the US has, throughout its existence, benefited greatly from immigrants and their families
. This current mania for vilifying people seeking a better life in America is just bizarre hypocrisy.
Trying to impose rules on one country and not another, that is hypocrisy.
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Old 29th December 2018, 07:28 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
What rule have you made up that makes the purpose of immigration a qualification for whether there's immigration? They left one place and moved permanently to another. That's immigration, whether or not they were conquerors, heroes, villains, pioneers, thieves, refugees or whatever.

Our president has been calling these latest immigrants "invaders." Well, maybe they're not immigrants at all.
Their characteristics that best fit the definition of a word.
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Old 29th December 2018, 09:19 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This isn't possible. I've been told endlessly by the brilliant, not-at-all-ignorant European skeptics on this forum that you can't see a doctor in the US unless you pay for it.
Do you deliberately ignore context or is that a natural occurrence?
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Old 29th December 2018, 09:22 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Their characteristics that best fit the definition of a word.
They're coming to conquer us? I guess they aren't immigrants by your definition.
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Old 29th December 2018, 10:39 PM   #618
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Some idiot:
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Any deaths of children or others at the Border are strictly the fault of the Democrats and their pathetic immigration policies that allow people to make the long trek thinking they can enter our country illegally. They can’t. If we had a Wall, they wouldn’t even try! The two.....
Popehat:
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History will **** on your grave and I’ll be there to cheer.
Linky.
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Old 30th December 2018, 07:31 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Even if the reason they pulled them was a lack of prescription, if they're taking them then they, at least, think something's wrong. Get a freaking doctor. It's not rocket science. It really isn't.

Heck, when I was deployed to Iraq, we even got doctors for our detainees if they showed signs of illness. On the same day, even.
Exactly helps with keeping the torture deaths low.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/national-s...e-held-account
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Old 31st December 2018, 05:28 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
...Also "settling unconquered land" seems like an odd way to describe the process of forcibly removing indigenous people and taking their land.
Agree, one of the most Orwellian comments I've seen in quite a while. In other news,
Quote:
On Saturday, Mr. Trump tweeted that the children’s deaths were the fault of Democrats and their immigration policies, in his first public comments since the 7-year-old girl and 8-year-old boy died this month. Mr. Trump expressed no remorse for their deaths, and falsely stated that the parents of the children had said they were sick when they came in to the country. Link
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Old 2nd January 2019, 01:33 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Throughout the United States, if Law Enforcement finds a prescription drug that is in the possession of someone to which it is not prescribed, they confiscate it. This is not waived because you are attempting to enter the US illegally.
And no one is suggesting that. If you could read for understanding, you'd realize that I wasn't arguing against that. Simply pointing out that if a person is taking prescription antibiotics (as opposed to, say, opiates) that aren't theirs it's probably because they think they are ill.

Even prisoners of war, not only NOT U.S. citizens but actively hostile to the U.S., are provided with medical care. Civilian prisons in the U.S. have medical personnel on staff. Heck, we don't even execute someone unless they're well.

But somehow that doesn't apply to detained immigrants?

You're trying desperately to point over there, but we can see the issue here.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 08:32 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
And no one is suggesting that. If you could read for understanding, you'd realize that I wasn't arguing against that. Simply pointing out that if a person is taking prescription antibiotics (as opposed to, say, opiates) that aren't theirs it's probably because they think they are ill.

Even prisoners of war, not only NOT U.S. citizens but actively hostile to the U.S., are provided with medical care. Civilian prisons in the U.S. have medical personnel on staff. Heck, we don't even execute someone unless they're well.

But somehow that doesn't apply to detained immigrants?

You're trying desperately to point over there, but we can see the issue here.
CBP detention centers do have medical staff on hand; it's been mentioned several times throughout these threads on illegal immigration. It is free (like Europe), but patients usually have wait before being seen (like Europe). Please stop trying desperately to paint US law enforcement in a bad light as it gives the gullible non-Americans members of this board a comic book interpretation of the US.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:02 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
CBP detention centers do have medical staff on hand; it's been mentioned several times throughout these threads on illegal immigration. It is free (like Europe), but patients usually have wait before being seen (like Europe). Please stop trying desperately to paint US law enforcement in a bad light as it gives the gullible non-Americans members of this board a comic book interpretation of the US.
If children are dying while medical staff are on hand that may not be the worst of bad light, but it's kind of flickering.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 11:23 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
If children are dying while medical staff are on hand that may not be the worst of bad light, but it's kind of flickering.
In the United States, if an abused and neglected child is brought to the care of medical professionals, and the child ends up dying, the cause of death is typically blamed on the child's caregiver(s), not the medical staff.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 07:24 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
CBP detention centers do have medical staff on hand; it's been mentioned several times throughout these threads on illegal immigration. It is free (like Europe), but patients usually have wait before being seen (like Europe). Please stop trying desperately to paint US law enforcement in a bad light as it gives the gullible non-Americans members of this board a comic book interpretation of the US.
Then America should stop aspiring to base policies on comic books.

Quite frankly, ICE under Trump has done a swell job of turning off the lights and unscrewing the bulbs all on it's own.

Also, evidence that this death is the result of neglect from the caregiver, please?

And quite frankly, they were detainees. The caregiver up to and at the time of death was ICE.

And finally, yes, sometimes these things happen. When they seem to be happening more frequently, and because of a wrong-headed policy to begin with, they aren't just "things that happen" anymore. Much in the same way that you can't say "oh, it's not our fault, they're just accidents" after you fight to repeal seat belt laws, say.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 07:51 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
And finally, yes, sometimes these things happen. When they seem to be happening more frequently
Do they seem to be happening more frequently? Or do they actually happen more frequently? There's a significant difference. The press has an incentive to make the former happen regardless of whether the latter is happening.
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Old 4th January 2019, 08:52 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
And no one is suggesting that. If you could read for understanding, you'd realize that I wasn't arguing against that. Simply pointing out that if a person is taking prescription antibiotics (as opposed to, say, opiates) that aren't theirs it's probably because they think they are ill.

Even prisoners of war, not only NOT U.S. citizens but actively hostile to the U.S., are provided with medical care. Civilian prisons in the U.S. have medical personnel on staff. Heck, we don't even execute someone unless they're well.

But somehow that doesn't apply to detained immigrants?

You're trying desperately to point over there, but we can see the issue here.
To be fair to ICE, medical neglect is a common form of abuse visited on inmates are regular jails and prisons all across this fine country. There are plenty of stories of regular prisoners being denied or delayed in receiving prescribed medication resulting in poor health outcomes including death.

This is not to say that this treatment is acceptable, but to say it is standard prison fare in this country and not special to CBP camps.
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Old 7th January 2019, 10:07 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To be fair to ICE, medical neglect is a common form of abuse visited on inmates are regular jails and prisons all across this fine country. There are plenty of stories of regular prisoners being denied or delayed in receiving prescribed medication resulting in poor health outcomes including death.

This is not to say that this treatment is acceptable, but to say it is standard prison fare in this country and not special to CBP camps.
There is truth in that. My biggest issue is that the policies enacted, the whole "detain everyone" idea, are increasing the likelihood of this type of thing by fostering the environment it happens in.

And really, taking someone else's antibiotics is a far different sort of crime than (for example) taking someone else's opiates; a type that should be a clue that something is wrong.
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Old 7th January 2019, 02:52 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
In the United States, if an abused and neglected child is brought to the care of medical professionals, and the child ends up dying, the cause of death is typically blamed on the child's caregiver(s), not the medical staff.
So if the caregivers and the medical staff are the same agency, they run around in circles and turn into butter?
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Old 19th January 2019, 02:01 AM   #630
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https://twitter.com/courtneyknorris/...15657749319682

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NEW: Sen. Jeff Merkley has formally requested FBI Director Wray open a perjury investigation into Sec. of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen. @SenJeffMerkley says “new documents show Nielsen lied in sworn testimony to Congress about the administration’s family separation policy.”
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Old 2nd February 2019, 03:27 AM   #631
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https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1091533510505086976

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BREAKING: Tonight the Trump administration filed documents that don’t dispute the recent report that there may have been thousands more separated kids. They’re arguing it would take too long to figure out where those kids are because they have no tracking system.

[...]

This response is a shocking concession that the government can’t easily find thousands of children it ripped from parents, and doesn’t even think it’s worth the time to locate each of them.

We will be back in court on February 21.
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Old 2nd February 2019, 10:40 PM   #632
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I agree, all those illegals that we set free to run around our country for two years while they wait for a court date that many won't attend are definitely a problem. We need to stop doing that.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 06:52 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I agree, all those illegals that we set free to run around our country for two years while they wait for a court date that many won't attend are definitely a problem. We need to stop doing that.
Except most DO show up for their hearings.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 07:26 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Except most DO show up for their hearings.
That doesn't contradict what he said. "Most" means a majority, but "many" can still be a minority. And it absolutely is many. For example, if we take Politifact's numbers:
https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...-court-data-s/
In fiscal year 2016, 61% of judgments regarding undocumented immigrants were made with the person in court. 39% were made in absentia. 39% is not "most", but at more than 34 thousand individuals who skipped court, it sure as hell is many. Furthermore, that's the percentage of the total of immigration court cases. Not all judgments are for removal. We can reasonably expect that the attendance rate for those who end up with removal orders will be lower, for obvious reasons. Measured that way, it might even be a majority.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 09:46 PM   #635
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Trump announces new concentration camps

And sometimes they didn’t “skip” court but they were given a fake or wrong court date by ICE.


https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immi...dges-expecting



https://splinternews.com/hundreds-of...ate-1832248564
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Old 4th February 2019, 01:13 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I agree, all those illegals that we set free to run around our country for two years while they wait for a court date that many won't attend are definitely a problem. We need to stop doing that.
I see no indication there was anything “illegal” other than the abductions themselves. Remember the Trump process is being applied to people following US laws, and international accepted norms, for refugees. There is nothing illegal about showing up in the US and asking for refugee status.
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