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Old 9th January 2019, 11:02 AM   #41
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Would you actually engage with them about their ideas if you found one?
Cards on that table, that's gonna be a real hard sell.

"I get to fudge the numbers to make it more likely for me to win" is the only spin one can put on this and that's... not a good sales pitch.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:36 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The cost of redrawing district lines every two years, for one thing.

The effect of decoupling representatives from the citizens they're supposed to represent, for another.

Random probably has unintended consequences, too. It often does.



Could be worse: TM is apparently unable to actually explain what's good about it, and simply abandoned the thread rather than continue to participate in the discussion.
A bit obvious. I suggest you try harder.
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:40 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
A bit obvious. I suggest you try harder.
Sauce for the goose, etc.

What's so good about your idea?
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:45 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sauce for the goose, etc.

What's so good about your idea?
It would prevent politicians and parties from gaming the system by drawing the lines to their own advantage. By taking control out of their hands they cannot misrule in that area.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:24 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It would prevent politicians and parties from gaming the system by drawing the lines to their own advantage. By taking control out of their hands they cannot misrule in that area.
Why every two years? It's primarily the rate of redistricting churn that seems like a problem to me.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Cards on that table, that's gonna be a real hard sell.

"I get to fudge the numbers to make it more likely for me to win" is the only spin one can put on this and that's... not a good sales pitch.
Nobody is making that sales pitch, though. Nobody is disputing that gerrymandering is a bad thing. You're spinning off straw men instead of engaging with the actual people actually debating in this thread.

You asked if anyone endorsed some strawman about gerrymandering. My response is, does it matter? Would you engage with them any more than you're engaging with the people actually in front of you?
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:40 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why every two years? It's primarily the rate of redistricting churn that seems like a problem to me.
I didn't say 'every two years', I said 'for each election'. So nobody could utilize knowledge of the previous election's boundaries. They could be redrawn daily, hourly, or once per election per office, by which I mean the lines used for voting for the presidency needn't be the same lines used for voting for congressman. Even in the same election, for that matter.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:54 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I didn't say 'every two years', I said 'for each election'. So nobody could utilize knowledge of the previous election's boundaries. They could be redrawn daily, hourly, or once per election per office, by which I mean the lines used for voting for the presidency needn't be the same lines used for voting for congressman. Even in the same election, for that matter.
Presidents and Senators are elected statewide. At the federal level, districts only really matter for Representatives. So I figured every two years was a good estimate of how much redistricting churn you were proposing. It never crossed my mind that you were considering hourly redistricting.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:57 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Presidents and Senators are elected statewide. At the federal level, districts only really matter for Representatives. So I figured every two years was a good estimate of how much redistricting churn you were proposing. It never crossed my mind that you were considering hourly redistricting.
If handled by computer it could be done many times per second. Since the suggestion was for randomness the frequency seems irrelevant, so long as the votes are all counted in the same instance of boundaries.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:00 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The cost of redrawing district lines every two years, for one thing.
It's done on a computer, so it's not as if it uses more bytes every time. I think 6-10 years is more reasonable, myself.

Quote:
The effect of decoupling representatives from the citizens they're supposed to represent, for another.
Normally I'd agree, but they're already largely decoupled since they are attached to their party. Come to think of it, screw districts and go for proportional votes.

Quote:
Random probably has unintended consequences, too. It often does.
"Probably" isn't very convincing.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:12 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nobody is making that sales pitch, though. Nobody is disputing that gerrymandering is a bad thing. You're spinning off straw men instead of engaging with the actual people actually debating in this thread.

You asked if anyone endorsed some strawman about gerrymandering. My response is, does it matter? Would you engage with them any more than you're engaging with the people actually in front of you?
What strawman? What are you on about?

There's no "good" version of Gerrymandering I'm not addressing.

Redrawing district just to give yourself an advantage is what Gerrymandering is.

If nobody is disputing Gerrymandering then what are you disputing?
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:32 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The cost of redrawing district lines every two years, for one thing.
It's done on a computer, so it's not as if it uses more bytes every time. I think 6-10 years is more reasonable, myself.

Quote:
The effect of decoupling representatives from the citizens they're supposed to represent, for another.
Normally I'd agree, but they're already largely decoupled since they are attached to their party. Come to think of it, screw districts and go for proportional votes.


<snip>

They get decoupled every time an incumbent loses, anyway. Which isn't that bad a thing, and is made remarkably difficult specifically by gerrymandering.

There were around ninety freshman House members in the 116th Congress.

So nearly 20% of the citizens were "decoupled" from their existing Representatives. Some may not be pleased about that, but I think it is rather refreshing.

There is are reasons that House elections are for the entire House of Representatives every two years, and they aren't because there were any concerns about citizens being "decoupled" from their last Representative.

Quite the contrary, I suspect.
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Last edited by quadraginta; 9th January 2019 at 06:01 PM.
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