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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Wisconsin politics

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Old 7th December 2018, 03:24 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Powers that the legislature can grant or remove are powers that belong to the legislature. Nothing the legislature has done prevents the governor or the AG from exercising their constitutional authority.
I thought the newly established principle was that important stuff was to be left to the next elected officials, not the current crop, because of the will of the people? That's what the Republicans said when they insisted a Supreme Court appointment couldn't be left to the sitting president, but had to belong to his successor.
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Old 7th December 2018, 03:29 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought the newly established principle was that important stuff was to be left to the next elected officials, not the current crop, because of the will of the people? That's what the Republicans said when they insisted a Supreme Court appointment couldn't be left to the sitting president, but had to belong to his successor.
It’s only wrong when the Democratic Party does it.
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Old 7th December 2018, 03:40 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I thought the newly established principle was that important stuff was to be left to the next elected officials, not the current crop, because of the will of the people? That's what the Republicans said when they insisted a Supreme Court appointment couldn't be left to the sitting president, but had to belong to his successor.
As a conservative, I'm not a big fan of newly established principles.

Also, please don't expect me to defend other people's arguments, nor to make my own arguments consistent with theirs. If you want to argue about other Republicans' "newly established princicples", go find those Republicans and argue with them.

Anyway, you seem to be trying to rebut my own argument by complaining that it's not consistent with some other argument that I haven't made and don't agree with. At best, your rebuttal is a non-sequitur, and not actually a rebuttal at all. At worst, you're actually agreeing with me. Was that what you intended when you set out to hit the Submit button?
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Old 7th December 2018, 04:05 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Powers that the legislature can grant or remove are powers that belong to the legislature. Nothing the legislature has done prevents the governor or the AG from exercising their constitutional authority.
That the legislature had this power is questionable. Democrats are claiming it's illegal and are vowing to sue. According to Michael Wagner, an associate professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison:

Quote:
Is there any precedent in Wisconsin's history for the legislature to disempower the governor and other top state officials in this fashion?


I am not aware of such a precedent. When Gov. Walker replaced outgoing Gov. Doyle, Doyle halted his signature high-speed rail project at Walker’s request, as Walker had been against it. What is happening now in Wisconsin is a subversion of democracy – Wisconsin Republican lawmakers are changing the job descriptions of the governor and attorney general between Election Day and Inauguration Day simply because their side lost. This is a textbook example of how democracies die. That is, when norms about the peaceful transfer of power are violated, we are in trouble.

Is there anything that Wisconsin's incoming governor and attorney general can do in response?


The incoming attorney general, Josh Kaul, has said that there will almost certainly be litigation in response to the changes – I have seen some folks representing the American Constitution Society arguing that the stripping of powers from the attorney general (and then giving them to the legislature) violates the state’s constitution.
https://www.salon.com/2018/12/05/ele...mocracies-die/
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Old 7th December 2018, 04:22 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is what they have done, to a limited degree. They aren't motivated by my reasoning, but oh well.

That's not always a minus. There's a reason to prefer a constitutional republic over a direct democracy.
That has nothing to do with this situation. The small 'r' republican idea of America includes majority rule while the rights of the minority are respected.

In this case, the minority rules. They are not meaningfully representative of the voters. No matter how much you want to ignore it, the GOP is the minority here.

Wanting the power to meaningfully reflect the will of the people does not mean direct democracy or nothing. That's a red herring.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Only if you lived in Wisconsin, and were ignorant of the rules, would you feel that way.

It's always been a rule that the WI legislature could delegate some of its own powers to the governor. It's always been a rule that the legislature could rescind that delegation and keep its powers for itself. It's entirely unsurprising that a legislature dominated by one party would be unwilling to delegate any of its power to a governor from the other party. It's entirely within the rules for them to adjust the assignment of their powers according to such circumstances.

There's also something undemocratic about the legislature delegating its power to the governor. When the legislature acts, it must first debate and vote and agree. This process more closely hews to the principles of democratic representation, than letting the executive act at will, without having to debate or gain consensus. It's a lazy or corrupt legislature that lets the executive branch do the legislature's job.

This is a case of (the wrong) people doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. But it's still the right thing to do. And it's well within the rules.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The power we're talking about is power that always belonged to the legislature, though. The only power they're grabbing is power that was theirs all along.
First, as above, they are the minority moving to keep the majority of the power. Second, they are the 'lazy and corrupt' legislature that, in your view, gave 'their power' to the executive branch, are taking it back only to keep it from the group that more accurately reflects the will of the people, and will give it back the second they get the chance to have a Republican in office. They cooked this up in a week, not some deliberate reflection on good government. (I hope this is what you mean by 'the wrong people'.) Thirdly, the courts have yet to check on this.

Fourth, part of this allows the legislature to hire lawyers at taxpayer expense to replace the AG in court. That isn't 'their power'. That's the elected AG's job.
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:25 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't know how you spin this as anything but politicians taking deliberate actions in direct opposition to an unambiguous expression of the will of the people.

Scott Walker and his regressive policies were up for election and they lost. The only reason the legislature is composed in its current form is due to extreme Gerrymandering that allow for these politicians to undercut the voting public. So the legislative branch, which has engaged in abhorrent behavior in order to insulate themselves from the will of the people, is stripping power from the one office that is not affected by this Gerrymandering, the governor.

Of course, if Walker had won, they would not have taken these actions because they care little about the balance of power between executive and legislative branches.

All of this is occurring as it becomes increasingly likely that this exact type of Gerrymandering will be in front of the SCOTUS soon and hopefully found unconstitutional. These Republicans have inverted the democratic process such that the politicians choose their voters.
Exactly this. One more strawbale hoisted upon the camel's back...

If and when it comes to violence, the fault will lie solely and directly at the feet of conservatives/Republicans in this country as they, as a group, have taken enough actions so far to demonstrate without doubt the intent to continue taking the USA down the fascist, oligarchic road.
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:10 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Exactly this. One more strawbale hoisted upon the camel's back...

If and when it comes to violence, the fault will lie solely and directly at the feet of conservatives/Republicans in this country as they, as a group, have taken enough actions so far to demonstrate without doubt the intent to continue taking the USA down the fascist, oligarchic road.
huh, just so we are all clear: violence when the GOP does the exact thing that the Democrats have done for decades?

Check.

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Old 7th December 2018, 11:41 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Exactly this. One more strawbale hoisted upon the camel's back...

If and when it comes to violence, the fault will lie solely and directly at the feet of conservatives/Republicans in this country as they, as a group, have taken enough actions so far to demonstrate without doubt the intent to continue taking the USA down the fascist, oligarchic road.
Things got a little out of hand. It’s just this war and that lying son of a bitch Johnson.
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Old 8th December 2018, 12:15 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what's the problem? The next legislature can always undo whatever this legislature does.
No, they passed those laws with the special "no backsies" clause that prohibits Democrats from repealing them.
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Old 8th December 2018, 04:09 AM   #90
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The quickest way to get the GOP to back down on the no guns in the State House is to have a bus load of armed black men turn up to visit the public gallery. Worked great back in the late 1970's when the Black Panthers did so in California and the next thing you know, the NRA was screaming for gun control!
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Old 8th December 2018, 04:49 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Quest for power? They're running for office and got elected!
Democrates being elected - Evil Power Grab

Republicans gerrymandering a majority of seats for a minority of votes and removing powers from legitimately elected officials - Responsible Exercise of Power.

You just have to view the world through Partisan Coloured Glasses.
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:20 AM   #92
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REPULICKERS STILL SLIME!!!!!!!
News daily proves it!!
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:21 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
huh, just so we are all clear: violence when the GOP does the exact thing that the Democrats have done for decades?

Check.

You are just so wrong.
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Old 8th December 2018, 07:28 PM   #94
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Mod WarningThe reader will note that 12 posts have been moved to AAH for bickering. Any further behavior will be met with increasingly severe mod action. Please discuss the topic, not each other. Thank you.
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Old 9th December 2018, 05:59 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
No, they passed those laws with the special "no backsies" clause that prohibits Democrats from repealing them.
Kind of difficult for Democrats to repeal them, when they're still overwhelmingly in minority in the State Assembly (36-63), despite having recieved 53% of the popular vote
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Old 9th December 2018, 09:29 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Things got a little out of hand. It’s just this war and that lying son of a bitch Johnson.
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Old 9th December 2018, 09:48 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So what's the problem?

It's a form of vandalism.
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Old 10th December 2018, 05:32 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's how you get power in a democracy: run for office and get elected. Is that confusing to you? Do you not understand that this is how it works?
From your wording I expected you meant something more than just "run for office and then enact the will of the people".

Quote:
Treason has a very specific definition in the US. This doesn't even remotely resemble that definition.
I'm not using the specific US legal definition, but mine, in this case. Like if you call someone ugly.
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:23 AM   #99
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The way elected Republicans have behaved and how their supporters defend those actions just prove that Republicans are scumbags.
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:28 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The way elected Republicans have behaved and how their supporters defend those actions just prove that Republicans are scumbags.
Why is this behaviour scumbaggery?
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:39 AM   #101
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Nope.
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:43 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Nope.
You have no interest in arguing why this behaviour is proof of scumbaggery?
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:45 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
It's a form of vandalism.
What do you mean?
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Old 10th December 2018, 06:50 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's how you get power in a democracy: run for office and get elected. Is that confusing to you? Do you not understand that this is how it works?



Treason has a very specific definition in the US. This doesn't even remotely resemble that definition.
Let's put together the concepts then. If by "quest for power" you mean, "getting elected and fullfilling the will of the people who elected you".

And since the "getting elected" part wasn't thwarted...

Did you mean to say you're fine with democrats being thwarted in fullfilling the will of the people who elected them?

Just wanted to clarify there.
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:43 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Let's put together the concepts then. If by "quest for power" you mean, "getting elected and fullfilling the will of the people who elected you".
That part isn't necessary to be a politician in a democracy. It sometimes happens, but definitely not always. And arguably, the Republicans did fulfill the will of the people who elected them, it's just a different group of people than those who elected the Democrats.
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:44 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not using the specific US legal definition, but mine, in this case.
Ah yes, the Humpty Dumpty theory of language.
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Old 12th December 2018, 12:49 AM   #107
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We really ought to be blaming apologists such as the ones in this thread for these things happening. They are providing cover for corrupt politicians to undermine democracy. Without the apologists, this wouldn't happen.
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Old 12th December 2018, 01:40 AM   #108
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Remember when Democrats did the same thing?



Neither do I.
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Old 12th December 2018, 01:55 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
... Did you mean to say you're fine with democrats being thwarted in fullfilling the will of the people who elected them?


***
GOP gerrymandering at state levels has a very clear agenda: to call a constitutional convention. Quite embarrassingly, the lead issue driving the campaign in the past is now a non-issue for the "God bless white men" crowd. [Ahem, so revealing as to base motive.] So we can now expect the Mercers and other hate-thy-neighbor types to select a new dog whistle and continue their attempt to gerrymander democracy itself.
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Old 12th December 2018, 03:41 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Ah yes, the Humpty Dumpty theory of language.
That's both unfair and dishonest. We all use our own judgment when evaluating whether something is wrong, or beautiful, or disgusting, and I was open about doing that. And the word "treason" has meanings outside of the US' legal setting. At this point you're just disagreeing for its own sake.
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:12 AM   #111
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I think David Frum summed it up best, “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:29 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
The way elected Republicans have behaved and how their supporters defend those actions just prove that Republicans are scumbags.
Yes, yes indeed!!!!!!
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:30 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I think David Frum summed it up best, “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
Also very YES!!!!!!
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:39 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I think David Frum summed it up best, “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
I think they've been rejecting both. What we thought of as conservatives have increasingly become populists of some kind.
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:46 AM   #115
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*Shrugs* The other side is evil so anything I do justified in the end if it keeps the other side out of power is hardly an uncommon mentality in politics.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:21 AM   #116
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I think David Frum summed it up best, “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”
Representatives elected to office passed laws....
....sounds pretty democratic to me
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:06 AM   #117
phunk
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Representatives elected to office passed laws....
....sounds pretty democratic to me
The people elected new a representative into the office as it exists, so changing the office before they get there seems undemocratic to me.
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:08 AM   #118
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
The people elected new a representative into the office as it exists, so changing the office before they get there seems undemocratic to me.
But people are elected with the term duration and the available powers to that office. It would be undemocratic to arbitrarily shrink the term of elected office.
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:23 AM   #119
Stacyhs
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Whether or not the GOP controlled legislature had the legal right to pass this legislation will probably be decided in a court of law as I understand lawsuits will be brought. Whether what they did was ethical is an entirely different matter.

If this had truly been an ideological effort to more equally distribute the power between the branches of state government, the Republicans would have done this years ago during their eight years of a super majority. They didn't. This was a blatant, last minute in the wee hours of the morning power grab by a party seeking to protect its own agenda and the will of the people be damned.
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:26 AM   #120
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Whether or not the GOP controlled legislature had the legal right to pass this legislation will probably be decided in a court of law as I understand lawsuits will be brought. Whether what they did was ethical is an entirely different matter.

If this had truly been an ideological effort to more equally distribute the power between the branches of state government, the Republicans would have done this years ago during their eight years of a super majority. They didn't. This was a blatant, last minute in the wee hours of the morning power grab by a party seeking to protect its own agenda and the will of the people be damned.
The election made them the arbiters of the will of the people until the last minute of the last day of the last year of their term.
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