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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Wisconsin politics

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Old 12th December 2018, 12:24 PM   #121
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The election made them the arbiters of the will of the people until the last minute of the last day of the last year of their term.
If you think about it real hard, you may be able to figure out what the Nov. election told them.
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Old 12th December 2018, 12:42 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If you think about it real hard, you may be able to figure out what the Nov. election told them.
It tells them nothing. They get to be the representatives and have that mandate until it is over.
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Old 12th December 2018, 12:52 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It tells them nothing. They get to be the representatives and have that mandate until it is over.
I'll say this before falling victim to the Black Hole that this would become: What is legal and what is ethical are not always the same. This is one of those times. You either can't/won't see that or simply want to disagree for disagreement's sake.
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Old 12th December 2018, 12:54 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'll say this before falling victim to the Black Hole that this would become: What is legal and what is ethical are not always the same. This is one of those times. You either can't/won't see that or simply want to disagree for disagreement's sake.
Im saying it seems highly unethical to arbitrarily stop doing your job you were elected to do. And the best representation of that job is the length of term.
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Old 12th December 2018, 02:45 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Im saying it seems highly unethical to arbitrarily stop doing your job you were elected to do. And the best representation of that job is the length of term.
And I'm saying it's even more unethical to redefine the responsibilities of an office in between someone being elected and them taking office. The voters voted them into that job as it was defined prior to the election.
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Old 12th December 2018, 03:09 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
And I'm saying it's even more unethical to redefine the responsibilities of an office in between someone being elected and them taking office. The voters voted them into that job as it was defined prior to the election.
But that logic works even after they take office: they were still voted into office with certain defined powers, that doesn't change after they are in office. This argument doesn't actually admit any time for it to be OK to change the powers of an elected office.
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Old 12th December 2018, 03:40 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But that logic works even after they take office: they were still voted into office with certain defined powers, that doesn't change after they are in office. This argument doesn't actually admit any time for it to be OK to change the powers of an elected office.
Sure it does. Any bill can include an effective start date. This allows them to be known well in advance of an election and take effect with the start of the new term. That also has the added benefit of letting voters use their votes to show disapproval of such changes.

Last edited by phunk; 12th December 2018 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 12th December 2018, 03:56 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by phunk View Post
Sure it does. Any bill can include an effective start date. This allows them to be known well in advance of an election and take effect with the start of the new term. That also has the added benefit of letting voters use their votes to show disapproval of such changes.
Why does it need to allow them to show disapproval? They have approval until they leave office.
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Old 12th December 2018, 04:06 PM   #129
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Old 12th December 2018, 04:36 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shrugs* The other side is evil so anything I do justified in the end if it keeps the other side out of power is hardly an uncommon mentality in politics.
The past decade should have put this "both sides" nonsense to rest.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:39 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Republican-led Wisconsin legislature approves bills to diminish executive power after Democratic election wins



CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/polit...wer/index.html
republickers suck in every possible way.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:43 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
What the republicans are doing in Wisconsin is filthy and repulsive.
That's what republickers do ..and are.
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Old 12th December 2018, 10:17 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
The past decade should have put this "both sides" nonsense to rest.
Yeah, this whole "enlightened centrist" thing is getting pretty old.

As if not picking a side somehow elevates you above the riff-raff and absolves you of guilt.
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Old 12th December 2018, 10:36 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Yeah, this whole "enlightened centrist" thing is getting pretty old.

As if not picking a side somehow elevates you above the riff-raff and absolves you of guilt.
It doesn't absolve guilt. That guilt is the burden some of us have to carry to do the right thing.
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:11 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It doesn't absolve guilt. That guilt is the burden some of us have to carry to do the right thing.
Sure, Bob. Whatever.
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Old 13th December 2018, 02:09 AM   #136
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It seems that there are those that honestly think that this isn't a total hijack of the democratic process.

How anyone, if they're being honest, can look at this and say, "oh, that's perfectly legitimate" is amazing.

Either by design or happenstance, somehow, there are enough, tiny, seemingly rational steps that can take one from understanding and supporting the principles of democracy to sincerely supporting the right of one party to utterly subvert the democratic process. That's amazing to me.

That which the departing party is restricting the arriving party from doing is exactly what was listed on the mandate. The departing party are literally fighting against the explicitly expressed will of the people.
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Old 13th December 2018, 02:13 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It seems that there are those that honestly think that this isn't a total hijack of the democratic process.

How anyone, if they're being honest, can look at this and say, "oh, that's perfectly legitimate" is amazing.

Either by design or happenstance, somehow, there are enough, tiny, seemingly rational steps that can take one from understanding and supporting the principles of democracy to sincerely supporting the right of one party to utterly subvert the democratic process. That's amazing to me.

That which the departing party is restricting the arriving party from doing is exactly what was listed on the mandate. The departing party are literally fighting against the explicitly expressed will of the people.
Assuming facts not in evidence.
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Old 13th December 2018, 02:30 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Assuming facts not in evidence.
See, that's the thing. I think that these are sincerely held beliefs, I really do.

I think that some people have had their thinking so mangled by following the talking head shills that their thought processes are so mangled - in pursuit of some mythical concept of 'winning' at politics - that they now cannot actually see how ludicrous it is when they support such a blatant anti-democratic move.

The brilliant part is that this is precisely the collective thinking that some state they are so keen to expose in others - My leader tells me this is the correct view, therefore this is the hill upon which I will make my stand.
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Old 13th December 2018, 02:59 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
See, that's the thing. I think that these are sincerely held beliefs, I really do.

I think that some people have had their thinking so mangled by following the talking head shills that their thought processes are so mangled - in pursuit of some mythical concept of 'winning' at politics - that they now cannot actually see how ludicrous it is when they support such a blatant anti-democratic move.

The brilliant part is that this is precisely the collective thinking that some state they are so keen to expose in others - My leader tells me this is the correct view, therefore this is the hill upon which I will make my stand.
I have a different view of what's going on. I agree with the indoctrination part, that much is clear to me. However, I think we're dealing with a psychological divide among the population, where some people are naturally more inclined to want an authoritarian - even fascist - government. I think that hidden under the thin veneer of trolling that is so evident in pretty much all of right wing USA, including pretty much all right wing posters here, lies a deep rooted fear of a future in which people like them - traditionally the ruling class - are just one amongst equals. Their instinct tells them they should be top dog, and the natural progression towards equality between genders and races ensures that will no longer be the case.
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Old 13th December 2018, 03:43 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
In the meantime they're subverting democracy by denying the government officials the people just voted for the powers the people voted for them to have.

Gerrymandering, voting restrictions, reducing voting time frames, reducing voting locations, reducing the number and times of locations where people can get what they need to vote, purging voter rolls, and now election fraud and stealing power from those just elected.

Why do Republicans hate democracy? It's almost as if they lose fair elections.
Shades of Marbury v Madison. Now where is John Marshall?
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Old 13th December 2018, 04:20 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh please. This isn't about "people". You aren't standing on any actual principles. You're only upset because the Democrats are at a partisan disadvantage.

Again, the tell is that no one is arguing for why the powers in question properly belong to the executive and not the legislature. Everyone is only upset because a Democrat won't get to use those powers. Even when I point out the tell, you still can't help but give the game away.
Yup. That's it. Keep showing off why the bulk of the Republicans of today absolutely should not be entrusted with power. But hey, I don't expect mere words to break you free from your fantasy world where everyone is just like you. Nor do I particularly expect evidence to, either, though. So, moving on.


Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
See, that's the thing. I think that these are sincerely held beliefs, I really do.

I think that some people have had their thinking so mangled by following the talking head shills that their thought processes are so mangled - in pursuit of some mythical concept of 'winning' at politics - that they now cannot actually see how ludicrous it is when they support such a blatant anti-democratic move.

The brilliant part is that this is precisely the collective thinking that some state they are so keen to expose in others - My leader tells me this is the correct view, therefore this is the hill upon which I will make my stand.
I'm reminded of a Vox article, interestingly enough, as I read your post. In particular, parts of it like -

Quote:
We often talk about our politics as “ideological.” But one of the most consistent political science findings is that few Americans are actually ideologues. A narrow slice of high-information elites (maybe 15 to 20 percent of the population overall, though no doubt a much higher percentage of Vox readers) has a consistent set of political principles that come ahead of partisan identity. But most people don’t pay as close attention to politics. For most people, partisanship is the cue to help them figure out where they stand on the issues.
I can say for myself, at least, though, that I tend to side with Democrats because they tend to side better with the principles that I value, but I'm not actually "loyal" to them.
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Old 13th December 2018, 05:24 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It seems that there are those that honestly think that this isn't a total hijack of the democratic process.

How anyone, if they're being honest, can look at this and say, "oh, that's perfectly legitimate" is amazing.

Either by design or happenstance, somehow, there are enough, tiny, seemingly rational steps that can take one from understanding and supporting the principles of democracy to sincerely supporting the right of one party to utterly subvert the democratic process. That's amazing to me.

That which the departing party is restricting the arriving party from doing is exactly what was listed on the mandate. The departing party are literally fighting against the explicitly expressed will of the people.
There is only a couple steps. The process is the written rules of the system. My defense of these Republicans here is very similar to discussions I have against people droning on about the unwritten rules of baseball. I reject the unwritten rules.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:14 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why does it need to allow them to show disapproval? They have approval until they leave office.
Napoleon III was elected president of a republic. Then, as president, he changed the republic into an empire and himself into an emperor. Would you have accepted this as legitimate, because he 'had approval' to act because he'd gotten elected in the first place?
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:19 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Napoleon III was elected president of a republic. Then, as president, he changed the republic into an empire and himself into an emperor. Would you have accepted this as legitimate, because he 'had approval' to act because he'd gotten elected in the first place?
This is a problematic phrasing as I don't find democracy legitimate government. Putting that aside, if the rules allowed it and it didn't violate the rules, then that was the decision making power entrusted to him.


But that all contributes to why I don't find voting legitimate.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:22 AM   #145
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The idea that it's "Democratic" to 99.999999% of the way through your term cut the legs out of from under the people chosen for the next term is ludicrous.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:31 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't find democracy legitimate government.
That only raises the question of what government you find legitimate.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:35 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That only raises the question of what government you find legitimate.
I probably don't
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:39 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I probably don't
Yeah, I expected that.

So you have no working definition of "legitimate", meaning you can't call any form of government illegitimate.

You fail again.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:41 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, I expected that.

So you have no working definition of "legitimate", meaning you can't call any form of government illegitimate.

You fail again.
I have a working definition, just no government I am aware of has ever met it. But there are many reasons for that. I'm not getting paid to conduct an exhaustive review to answer affirmatively which make the cut and which don't.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:41 AM   #150
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:42 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I win by having opinions so vague and context-less as to being say nothing! Yay me!"
Thank you. I do win.
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Old 13th December 2018, 07:58 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have a working definition
Oh, cool. What is it?
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:08 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, cool. What is it?
Does not commit aggression against those under it's aegis (i.e. have taxes).

ETA: also, I wouldn't say legitimacy is a factor in determining if it is, "good."

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Old 13th December 2018, 08:13 AM   #154
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Ah Bob the guy that thinks it's okay for people to slaughter, cheat, steal, and destroy one another because of cause purity but thinks you can't do anything to anyone if you are "in charge."
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:17 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Ah Bob the guy that thinks it's okay for people to slaughter, cheat, steal, and destroy one another because of cause purity but thinks you can't do anything to anyone if you are "in charge."
Hey, in post 144 I explicitly said I was putting aside these views to answer the question. No one's asking me about the question but asking about the views I put aside.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:29 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Does not commit aggression against those under it's aegis (i.e. have taxes).
Well, since taxation is the means through which government can function, I submit that your definition is not, in fact, "working".
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:32 AM   #157
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Even on paper a system where the losers of an election maintain power after they have lost seems like a terrible system.

Is there any good reason why Wisconsin’s system (and presumably the system of other US states) is like this?

In the UK, by comparison, when an MP loses an election, they are immediately replaced, with Parliament itself having been dissolved prior to the election, so no possibility of underhanded laws being passed.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:32 AM   #158
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, since taxation is the means through which government can function, I submit that your definition is not, in fact, "working".
It just means the ones that cannot survive will be labeled illegitimate. There isn't a requirement that a set of criteria must have some pass it.
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:35 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It just means the ones that cannot survive will be labeled illegitimate.
I really have to admire your dedication to taking principles and ideas to logical but completely unworkable, unrealistic extremes. It's a beauty to see you work.

And I think you meant "can", not "cannot".
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Old 13th December 2018, 08:36 AM   #160
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I really have to admire your dedication to taking principles and ideas to logical but completely unworkable, unrealistic extremes. It's a beauty to see you work.
Thank you.
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