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Old 21st December 2018, 08:37 AM   #81
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The Kurds are learning the true value of allying with America.
They learnt that long ago, I'm afraid.
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:38 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Russian apologist talking about law as if the word meant anything to them. Pathetic.

I'm not Russian. I'm German. The adventures of the US around the planet are illegal because of laws formed after a giant coalition, with the Russians doing the heavy work, defeated Nazi Germany and its allies. I'm sure Nürnberg would love to provide a venue where these criminals of our time get put to justice. And their willing helpers who "just followed orders". Get history.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:03 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Great news: Erdogan puts invasion plans on hold, "could happen in the next months". Before the US withdrawal, he threatened to invade "any moment now".

The clueless should know that the US hawks had planned to form a 40,000 men army out of the kurdish-dominated SDF, which was a very serious security concern for the Turks, even without Erdogan's megalomania and cruelty. So there's more hope now that this will lead to a good end.

Another hint for the clueless: What was at stake here was nothing less than the existence of NATO. So all friends of this rogue organization should think twice before blaming Trump. And he even managed to sell the Turks some useless weapons at the occasion.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:47 AM   #84
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Curious how many leftists, Maddow for one, have exposed themselves as raging Neo-Cons.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:56 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm not Russian. I'm German.
The term "Russian apologist" means that you're an apologist for Russia, which even this post confirms. It doesn't mean that you're from Russia, though there's less excuse for your apologism given that you aren't.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:58 AM   #86
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Curious how the same people rushing to Trump's defense after he decided to withdraw from Syria with no clear strategy lambasted Obama because they thought he withdrew from Iraq with no clear strategy.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:01 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Curious how the same people rushing to Trump's defense after he decided to withdraw from Syria with no clear strategy lambasted Obama because they thought he withdrew from Iraq with no clear strategy.
FTFY.

And is that more or less funny than how the same people who rushed to defend Obama's withdrawl from Iraq are now lambasting Trump for withdrawing from Syria?
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:03 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The term "Russian apologist" means that you're an apologist for Russia, which even this post confirms. It doesn't mean that you're from Russia, though there's less excuse for your apologism given that you aren't.

Yeah, really? Shouldn't that be "Russia apologist" then, or the good old "Putin apologist"? Although the latter is synonymous anyway in the brains of one-bit-thinkers.

I understood what he meant of course, his phobia is legendary after all. But thanks for the attempted correction. Always welcome when apposite.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 21st December 2018 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:07 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
FTFY.

And is that more or less funny than how the same people who rushed to defend Obama's withdrawl from Iraq are now lambasting Trump for withdrawing from Syria?
Withdrawal from Iraq was timetabled by Bush and agreed with the Iraqi govt by him.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:09 AM   #90
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Trump Tweets

I’ve done more damage to ISIS than all recent presidents....not even close!
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:11 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yeah, really? Shouldn't that be "Russia apologist" then
Nope. It should be an adjective, not a noun. Subtle and obscure point, made more obscure by its frequent use with words that can be either a noun or an adjective (ie, Christian apologism), but "Russian" is proper in this case.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:12 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Withdrawal from Iraq was timetabled by Bush and agreed with the Iraqi govt by him.
Obama still claimed credit, and people still praised him for it.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:16 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
In this case, the tumor is also next to the cerebellum.
You got that right!



Originally Posted by Hungry81 View Post
How dare The US be there illegally trying to prevent ISIS from illegally torturing and slaughtering thousands, illegally trying to prevent Turkey from illegally slaughtering the Kurds, Illegally trying to prevent Assad from illegally slaughtering his opponents, If they keep this up they might get ideas about trying to illegally deter China from illegally annexing the South China Sea, or illegally criticise Russia for illegally invading the Ukraine. Yup you sure picked the right criminals to oppose.
Those are the excuses ginned up while ignoring the US role in creating much of the problems in the first place.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:30 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Great news: Erdogan puts invasion plans on hold, "could happen in the next months". Before the US withdrawal, he threatened to invade "any moment now".
And we believe him because ... what?
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:31 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
FTFY.

And is that more or less funny than how the same people who rushed to defend Obama's withdrawl from Iraq are now lambasting Trump for withdrawing from Syria?
You should call out those particular people for their hypocrisy.

Still leaves you with the problem of your own hypocrisy, though.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:31 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Curious how the same people rushing to Trump's defense after he decided to withdraw from Syria with no clear strategy lambasted Obama because they thought he withdrew from Iraq with no clear strategy.
Plus didn't Trump warn against giving a date for withdrawal?
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:32 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
FTFY.

And is that more or less funny than how the same people who rushed to defend Obama's withdrawl from Iraq are now lambasting Trump for withdrawing from Syria?
People like Mattis?
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:39 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
And we believe him because ... what?

Well, nobody forces him to say these things. He could invade the next moment and nobody would make a big stink about it. As he did twice before, btw. He has maneuvered Turkey into a position where both the Empire and its adversaries desperately want it to be on their side, and he is extremely skilled at playing them against each other.
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Old 21st December 2018, 10:44 AM   #99
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btw there's a funny AP story based on two proverbial anonymous government officials that claims the decision happened during the phone call with Erdogan:

Originally Posted by Hürriyet
[...] Erdoğan, though, quickly put Trump on the defensive, reminding him that he had repeatedly said the only reason for U.S. troops to be in Syria was to defeat ISIL and that the group had been 99 percent defeated. "Why are you still there?" the second official said Erdoğan asked Trump, telling him that the Turks could deal with the remaining ISIL militants.

With Erdoğan on the line, Trump asked national security adviser John Bolton, who was listening in, why American troops remained in Syria if what the Turkish president was saying was true, according to the officials. Erdoğan’s point, Bolton was forced to admit, had been backed up by Mattis, Pompeo, U.S. special envoy for Syria Jim Jeffrey and special envoy for the anti-ISIL coalition Brett McGurk, who have said that ISIL retains only 1 percent of its territory, the officials said.

Bolton stressed, however, that the entire national security team agreed that victory over ISIL had to be enduring, which means more than taking away its territory.

Trump was not dissuaded, according to the officials, who said the president quickly capitulated by pledging to withdraw, shocking both Bolton and Erdoğan.

Not sure if I believe that, though. The shock would likely have killed the War Walrus.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 21st December 2018 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:01 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The Kurds are learning the true value of allying with America.
very slow learners...
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:09 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Withdrawal from Iraq was timetabled by Bush and agreed with the Iraqi govt by him.
Certainly, but that didn't stop idiots from calling Obama a traitor for abiding by the timetable.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:13 AM   #102
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Get out.

If the Kurds need us, we will drone them and A-10 their enemies.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:18 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You should call out those particular people for their hypocrisy.
Like you did?

Quote:
Still leaves you with the problem of your own hypocrisy, though.
You seem to be confused about what my position is.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:19 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
People like Mattis?
Mattis praised Obama's withdrawl?
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:22 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
very slow learners...
I don't think the Kurds are under any illusions. They'll take US help when it's available, but they know it's a short-term expedient.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:34 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Like you did?
You're the one claiming these alleged hypocrites exist.

It's not my responsibility to seek them out and chastise them for you.

Quote:
You seem to be confused about what my position is.
You excoriated Obama and offered mealy-mouthed rationalizations for Trump.

Nothing confusing about that at all.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:48 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Mattis praised Obama's withdrawl?
I meant the part about lambasting Trump. Only Mattis did it with action, not so much words. He's not going to follow the orders of another bat**** commander in chief.

And how is it Obama's withdrawal, anyhoo?

Israel is not too happy with Trump right now.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:50 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
You're the one claiming these alleged hypocrites exist.
And in exactly the same terms that you did. Huh.

Quote:
You excoriated Obama and offered mealy-mouthed rationalizations for Trump.
Yeah, no. I haven't offered rationalizations. I've pointed out the lack of rationalizations.

Quote:
Nothing confusing about that at all.
And yet, you somehow managed to be confused anyways.
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Old 21st December 2018, 11:51 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I meant the part about lambasting Trump.
That part on its own wouldn't be hypocritical, would it?

Quote:
And how is it Obama's withdrawal, anyhoo?
It happened on his watch, and he wanted credit for it. I'm happy to give it to him.
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Old 21st December 2018, 12:04 PM   #110
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At this point it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that Trump is too compromised and beholden to dictators, whatever the reason, and motivated to misdirect from investigations into himself and his shady, bottom-feeding enterprises and cohorts to faithfully perform his duties in the interests of the United States.
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Old 21st December 2018, 12:26 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
At this point it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that Trump is too compromised and beholden to dictators, whatever the reason, and motivated to misdirect from investigations into himself and his shady, bottom-feeding enterprises and cohorts to faithfully perform his duties in the interests of the United States.
Or just plain senile dementia. He listens only to the last person who spoke to him. And often, that's just the voices in his head.
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Old 21st December 2018, 12:36 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Mattis praised Obama's withdrawl?
It wasn't Obama's withdrawal. It was already agreed with the Iraqi Govt when he came to office.
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Old 21st December 2018, 12:44 PM   #113
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Trump is pulling out of war zones because he never wants to visit one.
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Old 21st December 2018, 12:47 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It wasn't Obama's withdrawal.
Obama claimed otherwise.
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Old 21st December 2018, 01:48 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It wasn't Obama's withdrawal. It was already agreed with the Iraqi Govt when he came to office.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obama claimed otherwise.
Can you cite evidence of this?

Bush signed an agreement that all forces would be withdrawn by 31 December 2011. Obama followed the Bush agreement and all forces were withdrawn by 18 December 2011.

ETA: Obama, Feb 2009: "And under the status of forces agreement with the Iraqi government, I intend to remove all US troops from Iraq by the end of 2011."

That agreement was signed by Pres. GW Bush in 2008.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 21st December 2018 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 21st December 2018, 01:55 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It is not as simple as our Trump defenders are making it, in that whether or not one things withdrawing is a good idea or not, this withdraw is abjectly moronic.

Obviously those who think pulling out is a bad idea overall obviously are already covered.

Those who are for pulling out of Syria specifically, even doing it now, should still think this specific mechanism is utterly negligent. Without a plan and discussing it with the Pentagon (which was not done, when asked they had no idea what the plan was), will at the very least put our troops in more danger. It isn't as simple as 'alright, everyone get on the plane, don't turn on the movie until we're out of STA missile range'.
I don't claim to be an expert on international affairs, but when it comes to whether I should trust the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, or a random, anonymous internet commentator posting under the pseudonym "tyr_13" I think it's obvious that anyone with a modicum of common sense and any knowledge of your comparative histories (however shallow) would pick tyr_13. So thanks for the context.
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:21 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Can you cite evidence of this?
Of Obama claiming credit for it? That's pretty easy to come by. For example:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...ended-war-iraq

Quote:
That agreement was signed by Pres. GW Bush in 2008.
Sure, but it was something Obama probably could have renegotiated, had he really wanted to. He apparently didn't, and as I've said, he claimed credit for it, he didn't attribute it to Bush. I'm happy to give him the credit that he wants.
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:45 PM   #118
Captain_Swoop
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What has it got to do with Trump running out on the Kurds and other allies in Syria?
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Old 21st December 2018, 02:55 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What has it got to do with Trump running out on the Kurds and other allies in Syria?
Ask johnny karate, he brought up the comparison, not me.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:33 PM   #120
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Trump call with Turkish leader led to US pullout from Syria

Quote:
President Donald Trump’s decision to withdraw American troops from Syria was made hastily, without consulting his national security team or allies, and over strong objections from virtually everyone involved in the fight against the Islamic State group, according to U.S. and Turkish officials.

Trump stunned his Cabinet, lawmakers and much of the world with the move by rejecting the advice of his top aides and agreeing to a withdrawal in a phone call with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan last week, two U.S. officials and a Turkish official briefed on the matter told The Associated Press.
https://apnews.com/ec2ed217357048ff998225a31534df12
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