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Old 21st December 2018, 03:50 PM   #121
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
He also didn't discuss it with the US's allies. UK officials only found out about it through Trump's tweet.

I don't pretend to know enough bout the situation there to have an informed opinion, and I've heard reasoned pro and anti arguments from informed people on both sides of the political spectrum, but I'm definitely cognisant of the fact that this announcement was welcomed by Putin and caused the US Secretary of Defence to be the first in history to resign in protest, and did so specifically citing his decades of experience in matters such as these. At the very least that strikes me as indicating that more thought should be applied.
Yup. This is another illustration of how objectionable this process is, regardless of how one feels about the general policy.

This is how the propagandists are leveraging objections to paint some as hypocrites and defend what is objectively the wrong way to go about things. They use past support for the general policy of bringing troops home and pretend it's the smocking gun showing objections to the process here to be disingenuous. The general defenses by apologists follow that too. Even when someone makes their nuanced argument clear, that they objected to going but now that we are there and made promises we should behave honorably and you know, not insane, barking dogs pretend that makes them hawks.
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:56 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Your analysis seems to depend on two things: Taking Putin's public statements at face value,
Not really as there are so many strands there including the reasoning as why Russia and other bad actors really would like this, as well as statements from those bad actors.

You don't have to take Putin at face value or anything close to it; you can substitute the statements of what, five?, governments for it, a dozen or so against it, the analysis of any number of experts, etc for that.

Quote:
and taking CE's body of work seriously at all. Since I don't share your dependencies, I don't see why I should share your conclusions.
Partly true. You don't have to take it 'seriously' in the sense that you have to believe what they're saying is said because they believe it, but you do have to take it seriously in the consistency of being severely anti-US.
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Old 21st December 2018, 03:59 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I don't claim to be an expert on international affairs, but when it comes to whether I should trust the President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, or a random, anonymous internet commentator posting under the pseudonym "tyr_13" I think it's obvious that anyone with a modicum of common sense and any knowledge of your comparative histories (however shallow) would pick tyr_13. So thanks for the context.
That is probably damning with faint praise, but I'll take it!
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Old 21st December 2018, 04:28 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Erdoğan, though, quickly put Trump on the defensive, reminding him that he had repeatedly said the only reason for U.S. troops to be in Syria was to defeat ISIL and that the group had been 99 percent defeated. "Why are you still there?"... Trump asked national security adviser John Bolton, who was listening in, why American troops remained in Syria if what the Turkish president was saying was true
I'm with Trump on this one, but to be consistent he should take a long hard look at all the other foreign US military deployments too.

The only reason we sent troops into Germany was to defeat the Nazis, and that group was 99% defeated by 1945, so why do we still have 35,000 troops there? And 53,000 in Japan, 12,000 in Italy, 9,000 in the UK, even 3,600 in Spain of all places. It's time to pull them all out!
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Old 21st December 2018, 04:38 PM   #125
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Where would you put them all?
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Old 21st December 2018, 04:50 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It wasn't Obama's withdrawal. It was already agreed with the Iraqi Govt when he came to office.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obama claimed otherwise.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Can you cite evidence of this?

Bush signed an agreement that all forces would be withdrawn by 31 December 2011. Obama followed the Bush agreement and all forces were withdrawn by 18 December 2011.

ETA: Obama, Feb 2009: "And under the status of forces agreement with the Iraqi government, I intend to remove all US troops from Iraq by the end of 2011."

That agreement was signed by Pres. GW Bush in 2008.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Of Obama claiming credit for it? That's pretty easy to come by. For example:

https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...ended-war-iraq

Sure, but it was something Obama probably could have renegotiated, had he really wanted to. He apparently didn't, and as I've said, he claimed credit for it, he didn't attribute it to Bush. I'm happy to give him the credit that he wants.
Look at the OP's statement. Obama clearly stated in 2009 that "And under the status of forces agreement with the Iraqi government, I intend to remove all US troops from Iraq by the end of 2011." That agreement was the Bush agreement. Reading your link, it states Obama ended the war. He did, but under the timeline of the Bush withdrawal agreement. You are wrong on this one.
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Old 21st December 2018, 04:51 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where would you put them all?
Building the southern border wall?
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:07 PM   #128
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“Trump is God’s gift that keeps on giving,” said Vladimir Frolov, a Russian columnist and foreign affairs analyst. “Trump implements Russia’s negative agenda by default, undermining the U.S.–led world order, U.S. alliances, U.S. credibility as a partner and an ally. All of this on his own. Russia can just relax and watch and root for Trump, which Putin does at every TV appearance.”

NY Times
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:09 PM   #129
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Trump is the worst form of traitor. He provides aid and comfort to our nation’s enemies.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:09 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
“Trump is God’s gift that keeps on giving,” said Vladimir Frolov, a Russian columnist and foreign affairs analyst. “Trump implements Russia’s negative agenda by default, undermining the U.S.–led world order, U.S. alliances, U.S. credibility as a partner and an ally. All of this on his own. Russia can just relax and watch and root for Trump, which Putin does at every TV appearance.”

NY Times
When you put it that way, it kinda looks like the NYT is a Russian propaganda organ.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:11 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
Trump is the worst form of traitor. He provides aid and comfort to our nation’s enemies.
Are you claiming that Russia is an enemy of the of the US? While I'm sympathetic to this point of view, I'm curious to know what you propose the US do about this enemy.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:12 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
When you put it that way, it kinda looks like the NYT is a Russian propaganda organ.
How you infer that is anyone's guess.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:17 PM   #133
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Hillary was correct. Trump is Putin’s puppet.
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Old 21st December 2018, 05:19 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you claiming that Russia is an enemy of the of the US? While I'm sympathetic to this point of view, I'm curious to know what you propose the US do about this enemy.
Just for starters, how about not kowtowing to their every whim and desire.
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Old 21st December 2018, 06:29 PM   #135
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As almost always, I agree with Matt Taibbi's take.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...drawal-772177/
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:27 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where would you put them all?
Tents
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:31 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Where would you put them all?
They could be put to work rebuilding US infrastructure and working on renewable energy production. Things like that.
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:36 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Completely wrong and doesn't even attempt to address my major point, but I did say 'obviously' twice in one sentence, so there is that.

No, they don't know better, do not have better sources, and the experts with actual working knowledge who don't hate the US agree with me, so there is that.

Hey Zigg and theprestige, how does it feel to have Childlike Empress on your side?
What sort of real expertise have they actually demonstrated? These are the architects of the Iraq war, Libya destabilization, "oops" creation of ISIS via a proxy war in Syria, etc, right?
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:37 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They could be put to work rebuilding US infrastructure and working on renewable energy production. Things like that.
Is there much need for untrained labor doing that?
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Old 21st December 2018, 08:43 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Is there much need for untrained labor doing that?
I guess it depends on how you feel about things like collapsing bridges and the survival of our species.
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Old 21st December 2018, 09:02 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I guess it depends on how you feel about things like collapsing bridges and the survival of our species.
How I feel about it doesn't change whether the big red one can fix it. What you describe sounds like it needs engineers and experienced repair crews.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 12:46 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How I feel about it doesn't change whether the big red one can fix it. What you describe sounds like it needs engineers and experienced repair crews.
The military has engineers, and the workers would become experienced soon enough.

It's a better idea than them just sitting around in Spain and Germany.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 01:43 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Yeah, really? Shouldn't that be "Russia apologist" then, or the good old "Putin apologist"? Although the latter is synonymous anyway in the brains of one-bit-thinkers.
I think Russia apologist is fine. China white is a form of heroin; it's not called Chinese white.

I don't know if consider yourself a Russia apologist or a Putin apologist. But at least Putin - who I consider a gangster - isn't systematically working to dismantle his own country's strategic influence in global affairs. Even if I agreed with pulling troops out of Syria and Afghanistan, the way Trump is doing it is a slap in the face to his own handpicked security advisers and sends a message not lost on U.S. rivals.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 01:58 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by zorro99 View Post
“Trump is God’s gift that keeps on giving,” said Vladimir Frolov, a Russian columnist and foreign affairs analyst.
People should start putting this stuff on billboards. Sooner or later Trump's supporters will ask, why does the Russian government love Trump so much? At least billboards can deliver a message not filtered by someone's social media habits.

And if Republicans want to counter, they could use the same tactic.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 02:03 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They could be put to work rebuilding US infrastructure and working on renewable energy production. Things like that.
I mean literally where would they go?
Finding barracks for 100,000 troops might be a problem.

I remember when the British Army on the Rhine (BAOR) were brought back to the UK in the 90s after the Warsaw Pact broke up there were problems finding enough barracks for them all.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 03:38 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I mean literally where would they go?
Finding barracks for 100,000 troops might be a problem.

I remember when the British Army on the Rhine (BAOR) were brought back to the UK in the 90s after the Warsaw Pact broke up there were problems finding enough barracks for them all.
When members of the military aren't off on deployments, the military gives them money to buy or rent homes in the US.
America is big. We're not running out of space for people, and there are "only" about 170,000 troops deployed at any given time, many of them married with a spouse and a bed waiting at home already. In comparison, we often have 1-2 million regular migrants into the US a year.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 03:45 AM   #147
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I don't like the way Trump is abandoning the Kurds to the tender mercies of Johnnie Turk, or Isis and Al-Nusra. The Kurds have been a kind of Middle East Poland for centuries. I don't like the way the British seem to be supporting Nazis in Ukraine with their little sense of humour, and their provocations against Russia. There is a sensible website about all this at:

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/a...isis-and-kurds

Quote:
The United States, though, is backing the Syrian Kurds. We have to. They’re the only ground force capable of fighting ISIS and winning. The only other options in Syria are the repulsive Assad regime, Hezbollah, Sunni Islamists that will inevitably turn on the United States, the al-Qaeda–linked Nusra Front, and a handful of relatively moderate but irrelevant Sunni groups that have already effectively lost.

The Kurds are all that’s left.

And the Kurds are the most pro-American people in the entire Middle East. They’re more pro-American than the Israelis. Ideologically, yes, the PKK-aligned groups are a bit iffy. They were once Soviet proxies and they’re at war with a member of NATO. But the Turks share at least half of the blame for that conflict. Nowhere in the region will Kurdish people accept cultural genocide lying down. Surely they would have accepted help from the United States had it been offered during the Cold War, but it wasn’t, so they took largesse and ideology from the Russians instead.

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Old 22nd December 2018, 04:40 AM   #148
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Just noting that all this discussion presupposes sanity in the White House, ergo intent. I question that assumption of sanity. Because the insanity plea is about the only "out" left to Trump for accusations of openly public collusion with foreign powers (and Fox & Friends) this week alone.

There ain't no Sanity Clause!
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Old 22nd December 2018, 04:44 AM   #149
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Can he fire Powell? I can find plenty of stuff about how the Fed Chair is appointed, but nothing on how to get rid of one mid-term.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 04:47 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Can he fire Powell? I can find plenty of stuff about how the Fed Chair is appointed, but nothing on how to get rid of one mid-term.
Apparently not, according to Morgan Stanley. But I would not put it past him to publicly try despite personal advice to the contrary.

Quote:
U.S. President Donald Trump may be unhappy with Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell, but he has no authority to remove the central bank head from office, Morgan Stanley said.

...

"The President can nominate a chair but once the chair is confirmed, the president is out of it and the only way you can remove a chair from office is literally if they broke the law. Congress will have to find a cause to remove them from office through a vote and a procedure,"
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/29/trum...n-stanley.html
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Old 22nd December 2018, 06:34 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
If there were such a thing as a place that takes bets on the existence of a piss tape, the odds would sharply change today.
I not too long ago had such suspicions myself. No longer. Really, the Trump base would think it’s awesome, Republicans in Congress would “express concern,” Fox and Friends would devote a whole week to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez’s shoes. Nothing would change.

Well, okay, Mike Pence might for a moment shift uncomfortably in his chair.

No, if Putin has anything over Trump it’s related to enormous amounts of money and the kind of hardcore criminality one doesn’t move off the news cycle.

That being said, I can’t entirely dismiss the possibility of video. But rather than showing a couple bladder-challenged escortskis, I’d wager it’s more along the lines of our hero arranging a hit (or so he’s led to believe) on one of his nemeses. Pick a card.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 06:44 AM   #152
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The military has engineers, and the workers would become experienced soon enough.

It's a better idea than them just sitting around in Spain and Germany.
How many engineers do you think are enlisted or officers?
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Old 22nd December 2018, 06:56 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How many engineers do you think are enlisted or officers?
The US Army Corps of Engineers has approximately 37,000 personnel.

There's also the Seabees in the Navy and the Red Horse in the Air Force, but a quick check doesn't turn up exact numbers. The Seabees have six battalions and the Red Horse have fifteen squadrons.

EDIT: 7,000 active Seabees and 7,000 Reservists. And it looks like the Red Horse squadrons are 400 men each, so 6,000 Red Horse engineers.

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Old 22nd December 2018, 07:00 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I think Russia apologist is fine. China white is a form of heroin; it's not called Chinese white.

I don't know if consider yourself a Russia apologist or a Putin apologist. But at least Putin - who I consider a gangster - isn't systematically working to dismantle his own country's strategic influence in global affairs. Even if I agreed with pulling troops out of Syria and Afghanistan, the way Trump is doing it is a slap in the face to his own handpicked security advisers and sends a message not lost on U.S. rivals.

There's nothing to apologize for. The German propagandists have invented the term "Putinversteher" ("understander of Putin") as a smear, as if understanding something was bad, I certainly would wear that with pride. And you have no clue whom you're talking about, frankly. A "gangster". LOL. I quoted him with the snippet on the topic thrown around by the pre$$titutes, adding the whole quote. That was from an event he does once a year answering questions from everybody who wants to ask. It goes several hours. Try to imagine Trump doing such a thing. Or Saint Obama without his two teleprompters. Or a "gangster". Now, if you have the time you can read or skim the transcript at the Kremlin site and try to understand the nature of his more or less spontaneous, free talk answers. Maybe it helps.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 07:02 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The US Army Corps of Engineers has approximately 37,000 personnel.

There's also the Seabees in the Navy and the Red Horse in the Air Force, but a quick check doesn't turn up exact numbers. The Seabees have six battalions and the Red Horse have fifteen squadrons.

EDIT: 7,000 active Seabees and 7,000 Reservists. And it looks like the Red Horse squadrons are 400 men each, so 6,000 Red Horse engineers.
The army corps of engineers is not made of military people. That is what I asked. There are only 500 military personnel there.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 07:37 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are you claiming that Russia is an enemy of the of the US? While I'm sympathetic to this point of view, I'm curious to know what you propose the US do about this enemy.
For starters, counter their attempts to manipulate our elections, and significantly sanction them for prior attempts.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 07:40 AM   #157
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Apparently the legendary SAA Tiger Forces have been sent to finish off ISIS in the Hajin pocket. More good news.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 07:45 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
They could be put to work rebuilding US infrastructure and working on renewable energy production. Things like that.
As far as working on renewable energy production, much of the work of the research arms of the military (ONR, AFRL, RDECOM) and their allied partners is already on renewable energy. It significantly benefits the military to reduce energy dependence.
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Old 22nd December 2018, 08:56 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If its really true that ISIS is relegated to such a small territory and is contained, then why do Assad, the Russians, the Turks, the Iraqis, et al need American handholding at this point anyway?
Er, we were aiding the Kurds, primarily. You sure that ISIS is their only threat?

But yeah, screw 'em (again).
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Old 22nd December 2018, 10:00 AM   #160
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The US envoy to the coalition fighting IS has resigned in protest, saying in his resignation letter that pulling out US forces now would recreate the conditions that gave rise to IS in the first place
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