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Old 2nd January 2019, 03:32 PM   #1
Ranb
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10 Years of Presidential Tax Returns in New Bill

Democrats to ask for 10 years of presidential tax returns in new bill
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/02/polit...ats/index.html

Quote:
According to two sources familiar with the discussions, Democrats will include a provision in their new bill that would require presidential nominees to disclose 10 years of tax returns shortly after they become the nominee. Vice presidents would also be required to disclose a decade of returns. The tax returns would then be posted on the Federal Election Commission's website for public viewing.
No way this becomes law in this climate.

Quote:
The House Ways and Means Committee is also pursuing another route to obtain Trump's tax returns. Democrats believe under an obscure IRS rule, the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, Rep. Richard Neal of Massachusetts, has the power to obtain the returns from the Treasury Department. Neal has said he plans to ask for them in the new Congress, but when exactly he'd make his move is still under discussion.
Anyone know what this IRS rule is?

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Old 2nd January 2019, 04:31 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
No way this becomes law in this climate.
"this climate" = "Trump is too embarrassed to show his taxes publicly"?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:25 PM   #3
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They should do the Wall Deal on the condition he releases his tax returns.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:39 PM   #4
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Seems like this is something easily solved by the electorate at election time. No need to make a law about it.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:46 PM   #5
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Not that this would pass the present Senate and be signed by Trump anyway, but what's the penalty if the nominee refuses to release their returns?
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:47 PM   #6
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Too funny. Trump plays the Democrats without them even knowing it.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:50 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Not that this would pass the present Senate and be signed by Trump anyway, but what's the penalty if the nominee refuses to release their returns?
Probably won't be able to get on the ballot anywhere? The usual penalty for failing to make a complete filing of one's candidacy by the cutoff date(s).
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Old 2nd January 2019, 05:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably won't be able to get on the ballot anywhere? The usual penalty for failing to make a complete filing of one's candidacy by the cutoff date(s).
I have a feeling it's more likely to be a slap-on-the-wrist fine.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I have a feeling it's more likely to be a slap-on-the-wrist fine.
Since it's just political grandstanding anyway, they should go big: Make it a capital crime.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:07 PM   #10
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I wonder how lawmakers would like it if this standard was also applied to congressional candidates.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:47 PM   #11
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Sounds as unconstitutional as saying you have to be 36 for president
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Democrats to ask for 10 years of presidential tax returns in new bill
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/02/polit...ats/index.html


No way this becomes law in this climate.


Anyone know what this IRS rule is?

Ranb
It's a provision in the IRS code from 1924. Put in place because of the teapot dome scandal.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/09/05/polit...rns/index.html
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:57 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I wonder how lawmakers would like it if this standard was also applied to congressional candidates.
Probably as much as they like the idea of switching from FEHB plans to ACA plans.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 06:59 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably as much as they like the idea of switching from FEHB plans to ACA plans.
That is an ACA plan. Employer based insurance is a critical component of the ACAs structure (if you like your plan you can keep it).
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:01 PM   #15
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It's not a marketplace plan.

ETA it is an ACA compliant plan. Like my previous employer plan - not available on the marketplace.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:03 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
It's not a marketplace plan.

ETA it is an ACA compliant plan. Like my previous employer plan - not available on the marketplace.
Which is a critical piece of the ACA.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 07:14 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is an ACA plan. Employer based insurance is a critical component of the ACAs structure (if you like your plan you can keep it).
Unless you like the wrong plan. Then government knows best, and you'll take the plan they give you whether you like it or not.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 08:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
"this climate" = "Trump is too embarrassed to show his taxes publicly"?
The climate in which Trump would veto the bill.
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Old 2nd January 2019, 10:25 PM   #19
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Trump is going to veto every ******* thing anyway out of childish spite. So go for it!
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Old 3rd January 2019, 01:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Probably as much as they like the idea of switching from FEHB plans to ACA plans.

Actually, Congressmen and their staffs do have to buy their insurance on the D.C. ACA exchange. They excluded themselves from the federal health plan to try to discourage colleagues from voting for the ACA.
Quote:
Under the Affordable Care Act, members of the U.S. House of Representatives, the Senate and their office staffs who want employer coverage generally have to buy it on the health insurance exchange. Before the ACA passed in 2010, they were eligible to be covered under the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program. (People working for congressional committees who are not on a member's office staff may still be covered under FEHBP.)

The members of Congress and their staffs choose from among 57 gold plans from four insurers sold on the DC Health Link's small business marketplace this year.
ttps://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/12/523335954/what-happens-to-a-congressmans-health-insurance-if-obamacare-goes-down

Last edited by Bob001; 3rd January 2019 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 01:24 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Unless you like the wrong plan. Then government knows best, and you'll take the plan they give you whether you like it or not.
You really don't understand this at all, do you? Most people get their insurance through their employers. The employer decides what to give you, whether you like it or not. The ACA is for people who are in the individual market, and it provides that insurance offered by private companies through state exchanges or the federal exchange must meet specified standards. Would you rather buy insurance that doesn't cover anything, from companies that can drop you when you start to cost them money?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 01:44 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Sounds as unconstitutional as saying you have to be 36 for president
Hmmm...which is actually IN the Constitution.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 02:14 AM   #23
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Just make everyone's "tax returns" public information. Problem solved.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 02:27 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Just make everyone's "tax returns" public information. Problem solved.
That's not going to happen. The tax man is usually corrupt enough to keep mum about the source of your income as long as you pay your fair share of tax.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 02:48 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Just make everyone's "tax returns" public information. Problem solved.
Good idea!
We could Crowdsource the auditing, thus saving a ton of money in wages, increasing income from wrong fillings and give all those anal-retentive busybodies something productive to do.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 04:45 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I wonder how lawmakers would like it if this standard was also applied to congressional candidates.
Why shouldn't it apply to all public offices? They're basically applying to work for the public, why shouldn't the public know their past history of how they acted to fulfill their duty to the public?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 05:32 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
They should do the Wall Deal on the condition he releases his tax returns.
They should agree to to fund the wall to the extent that trump paid tax. On an assumption he has earned 5 billion over the last 10 years that would have resulted in around £1.75 bn in tax so how about congress fund the wall to the tune of 10x Trump's tax payments over the last decade. That will more than match the cost quoted when the election promise was made.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 05:46 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Hmmm...which is actually IN the Constitution.
35 is
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Old 3rd January 2019, 06:05 AM   #29
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So how would this even work on a functional level?

John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt announces his candidacy for Presidency. Gets elected. And then they ask to see his tax return and he refuses. What do they do? Unelect him? Impeach him?

Or he does put up his returns and he spent 5 years funneling heroin money through ISIS to fund baby seal clubbing in the Arctic. Again so?

This is the inherent problem with the government putting rules one eligibility for elected officials. What do you do when they still get elected? Tell the electoral they were wrong?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 06:36 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So how would this even work on a functional level?

John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt announces his candidacy for Presidency. Gets elected. And then they ask to see his tax return and he refuses. What do they do? Unelect him? Impeach him?

Or he does put up his returns and he spent 5 years funneling heroin money through ISIS to fund baby seal clubbing in the Arctic. Again so?

This is the inherent problem with the government putting rules one eligibility for elected officials. What do you do when they still get elected? Tell the electoral they were wrong?
I'm guessing noncompliance could be grounds for legal action to compel the release of the documents and criminal/civil sanctions for those who don't comply.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 06:50 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm guessing noncompliance could be grounds for legal action to compel the release of the documents and criminal/civil sanctions for those who don't comply.
There already is an appropriate sanction. Voter's can choose to not vote for that candidate if they think it matters.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 07:02 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So how would this even work on a functional level?

John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt announces his candidacy for Presidency. Gets elected. And then they ask to see his tax return and he refuses. What do they do? Unelect him? Impeach him?

Or he does put up his returns and he spent 5 years funneling heroin money through ISIS to fund baby seal clubbing in the Arctic. Again so?

This is the inherent problem with the government putting rules one eligibility for elected officials. What do you do when they still get elected? Tell the electoral they were wrong?
Didn't somebody elect a dead guy? The pimp in Nevada? What happened there? There was a way out, correct?
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Old 3rd January 2019, 07:03 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There already is an appropriate sanction. Voter's can choose to not vote for that candidate if they think it matters.
Apparently these lawmakers don't think so.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 07:49 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So how would this even work on a functional level?

John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt announces his candidacy for Presidency. Gets elected. And then they ask to see his tax return and he refuses. What do they do? Unelect him? Impeach him?

Or he does put up his returns and he spent 5 years funneling heroin money through ISIS to fund baby seal clubbing in the Arctic. Again so?

This is the inherent problem with the government putting rules one eligibility for elected officials. What do you do when they still get elected? Tell the electoral they were wrong?
In this case it's not necessary for the subject to be cooperative: a law can be passed that authorizes the IRS to publish the tax returns of people running for office.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 07:52 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That's not going to happen.
Except it has in Sweden, Norway and Finland. Which is why, for example, the Swedish public can know that a "relatively unknown individual" (the newspaper voluntarily refrained from publishing their identity because they were unable to contact them) made the largest capital gains of 1,650 million SEK (roughly 182 million USD) during 2017, of which 495 million will go to taxes. Likewise they can know that the individual with the highest personal income (wages, bonuses, pension and etc) was Sebastian Knutsson, the founder of the gaming company behind "Candy Crush Saga", at 171.5 million SEK.

In fact anyone can ask the Swedish Tax Agency for the tax filing information on (almost) anyone in the realm.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 07:53 AM   #36
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Okay but people aren't picking candidates based on their tax returns that was just one of a million red herrings.

Raise your hand if you're a Trump supporter now and anything in his tax return could make you stop supporting him?

Okay now raise your hand if you're a Trump... errrr opposer (supporter needs a better antonym) and anything in his tax return could make you start supporting him?

Wow that's funny no hands went up.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Raise your hand if you're a Trump supporter now and anything in his tax return could make you stop supporting him?
Perhaps some might not have become Trump supporters in the first place if they knew the truth about his finances at the start of the campaign.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 08:16 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by jrhowell View Post
Perhaps some might not have become Trump supporters in the first place if they knew the truth about his finances at the start of the campaign.
What exactly in a "tax return" is going to tell us or would have told us what we couldn't of already guessed?

Oh noes a tax return... that might show evidence that Trump is... is... is... shady and dirty *Scare cord, lightning flash, cat jumps into frame, old lady passes out from the vapors*

"Evidence for stuff that everyone already knows and has either already made peace with or is already angry about" doesn't matter.
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Old 3rd January 2019, 09:40 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What exactly in a "tax return" is going to tell us or would have told us what we couldn't of already guessed?
Well for one... Trump claimed he was a "great businessman", and that the country needed his financial expertise. While a lot of people saw that it was a false claim, the lack of his tax returns gave at least some plausible deniability to his supporters. "Oh yeah, he's rich! Look at his penthouse!" Seeing a decade's worth of tax returns all saying the same thing "Trump is broke" might convince a few of them that he's not a financial genius.

Then there is also the possibility that public access to his tax returns might prompt further investigations into his shady dealings. The IRS does audits, what they look at is limited. I could imagine some news reporter noticing something in the tax return that the IRS thought was acceptable that, upon digging, would reveal a bigger scandal. "Oh, here under 'sources of income' you have a line that says 'income from stealing candy from babies'."
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Old 3rd January 2019, 09:44 AM   #40
JoeMorgue
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well for one... Trump claimed he was a "great businessman", and that the country needed his financial expertise. While a lot of people saw that it was a false claim, the lack of his tax returns gave at least some plausible deniability to his supporters.
But that's my point. You already know that Trump isn't a great business man, you don't need a tax return to tell you that.

People who think Trump is a great business man wouldn't have their mind changed by a tax return, they would just rationalize it away.

Trump jumped the shark from "plausible deniability" to "implausible deniability" a long time ago. Trump being a bad business is "water is wet" level of established fact. Dunking the people who don't believe it head in the toilet isn't going to accomplish anything.

You can throw information at misinformation. You can't throw it at denial.
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