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Old 4th January 2019, 04:31 PM   #121
theprestige
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Especially since it's congress that makes the laws. If we're concerned that politicians might benefit from political policies, then the place to start is the legislature. By some strange coincidence, that is exactly where these particular legislators propose to *not* start.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:32 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why not just make all tax records public?
Privacy. Let's say you are an atheist and donate to Freedom From Religion Foundation, but you live in a place where being an atheist is not socially acceptable. Or you donate to Planned Parenthood where it's not socially acceptable. Or the idea of how much I make, or my spouse, or my kids, is nobodies business.
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Old 4th January 2019, 04:37 PM   #123
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Typical nanny-state approach. The only cure worth taking is one that's worse than the disease.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:01 PM   #124
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A DNA test should also be required at least that way we would know who might have a hereditary disease that would make them unfit for office and we would also find out who the real Native Americans are.
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Old 4th January 2019, 05:36 PM   #125
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Any time a legislator proposes a standard that doesn't apply to them, we should probably apply it them before anyone else.
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Old 5th January 2019, 03:31 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why not just make all tax records public?
I don't know how one is supposed to evaluate one's worth in a free market economy if one doesn't know how much everyone else is earning
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Old 5th January 2019, 03:33 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Or the idea of how much I make, or my spouse, or my kids, is nobodies business.
Why shouldn't it be anyone else's business?

It's a free market economy, guided by 'the hand of the market' - how's that supposed to work if nobody knows what anybody else earns?
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Old 5th January 2019, 09:26 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why shouldn't it be anyone else's business?

It's a free market economy, guided by 'the hand of the market' - how's that supposed to work if nobody knows what anybody else earns?
I'm not sure where you got the idea that not knowing what everyone else is earning will stop a free market economy from working. Can you explain the logic there?
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Old 5th January 2019, 10:20 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm not sure where you got the idea that not knowing what everyone else is earning will stop a free market economy from working. Can you explain the logic there?

How does one calculate what payment to pitch for if one doesn't know what everyone else is being paid?

Capitalism is a comparative thing - Person A creates more value than person B therefore should receive more remuneration. How is person A supposed to work this out and pitch for his or her correct remuneration if he doesn't know hat his peers are earning?



My company get very, very nervous when us here at the coal face start discussing our salaries. They'd like to stop us doing it entirely but they're not actually allowed to (they just pretend they're allowed to). It's very much to their advantage to keep those who do the actual work in the dark about relative salaries, that way they can pay less.
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Old 5th January 2019, 10:59 AM   #130
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I wouldn't mind this law, because I don't mind holding presidential candidates to a higher standard if there's a good reason. But, I do know that in my state legislators passed a reasonably inclusive open meetings law, which made it illegal for 3 members of a 5-member board to assemble without a public meeting notice and agenda posted. Later I found out, if I've interpreted this correctly, that they weren't even allowed to poll one another individually if the intent was to make sure 3 members agreed on a vote.

However, and again talking from memory, legislators could secretly meet and wheel and deal any way they wanted to, short of actually taking a binding vote.

Three new county board members were elected, then met privately to plan ousters of personnel they did not want in the new administration. It was perfectly legal, since they hadn't been sworn in, but it was kind of funny that they ran on a platform of open government.

Look, a president has the potential of such a huge impact that yes, I'd like to know who has been buttering their bread. Legislators really can't do anything unilaterally but a president can. His or her executive orders, or even just casually mouthing off, affect the national and even international financial world. An example is tariffs; another is badmouthing or threatening a company in a way that impacts the stock prices and allows for some opportunistic transactions. A president can send U.S. troops abroad or bring them home pretty much at whim, as far as I can tell.

As long as the executive has this kind of power, the prospective officeholder bears closer scrutiny than congressional candidates who are just a small piece of a much larger body.
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Old 5th January 2019, 12:58 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No need. His returns can be demanded by the new Chair of the House Ways and Means Committee, Rep (D) Richard Neal under 26 U.S. Code 6103. I believe he is already preparing to do so.
From what I've seen on local news Rep. Neal has said it will be done ASAP.

To save people time locating the pertinent section it's 6103(f)(1).
Quote:
(f) Disclosure to Committees of Congress
(1) Committee on Ways and Means, Committee on Finance, and Joint Committee on Taxation

Upon written request from the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means of the House of Representatives, the chairman of the Committee on Finance of the Senate, or the chairman of the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Secretary shall furnish such committee with any return or return information specified in such request, except that any return or return information which can be associated with, or otherwise identify, directly or indirectly, a particular taxpayer shall be furnished to such committee only when sitting in closed executive session unless such taxpayer otherwise consents in writing to such disclosure.
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Old 5th January 2019, 05:53 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
How does one calculate what payment to pitch for if one doesn't know what everyone else is being paid?

Capitalism is a comparative thing - Person A creates more value than person B therefore should receive more remuneration. How is person A supposed to work this out and pitch for his or her correct remuneration if he doesn't know hat his peers are earning?



My company get very, very nervous when us here at the coal face start discussing our salaries. They'd like to stop us doing it entirely but they're not actually allowed to (they just pretend they're allowed to). It's very much to their advantage to keep those who do the actual work in the dark about relative salaries, that way they can pay less.
What other people are being paid certainly helps you to ascertain the value of your work, but it's not entirely necessary. The market works because you have the freedom to negotiate, which includes, for instance, trying to find work elsewhere, and if they will pay you more you'll move.

That doesn't require knowing what other people are getting paid, only that someone else is willing to pay you more.
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Old 5th January 2019, 05:58 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I wouldn't mind this law, because I don't mind holding presidential candidates to a higher standard if there's a good reason. But, I do know that in my state legislators passed a reasonably inclusive open meetings law, which made it illegal for 3 members of a 5-member board to assemble without a public meeting notice and agenda posted. Later I found out, if I've interpreted this correctly, that they weren't even allowed to poll one another individually if the intent was to make sure 3 members agreed on a vote.

However, and again talking from memory, legislators could secretly meet and wheel and deal any way they wanted to, short of actually taking a binding vote.

Three new county board members were elected, then met privately to plan ousters of personnel they did not want in the new administration. It was perfectly legal, since they hadn't been sworn in, but it was kind of funny that they ran on a platform of open government.

Look, a president has the potential of such a huge impact that yes, I'd like to know who has been buttering their bread. Legislators really can't do anything unilaterally but a president can. His or her executive orders, or even just casually mouthing off, affect the national and even international financial world. An example is tariffs; another is badmouthing or threatening a company in a way that impacts the stock prices and allows for some opportunistic transactions. A president can send U.S. troops abroad or bring them home pretty much at whim, as far as I can tell.

As long as the executive has this kind of power, the prospective officeholder bears closer scrutiny than congressional candidates who are just a small piece of a much larger body.
The advantage of not having the law is you can hold them to that level of scrutiny and not check the box for someone who doesn't comply. Other people who don't believe in that level of scrutiny can check the box.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:01 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why shouldn't it be anyone else's business?

It's a free market economy, guided by 'the hand of the market' - how's that supposed to work if nobody knows what anybody else earns?
There is more than income statements on the 1040. Does the "hand of the market" require information on:
Sexual orientation (marital information)
Number of children
Address
Parents name and income
Grandparents (The IRS could create some fairly detailed family trees)
Health Care information
- major illnesses could be determined by who got paid.
Favored charities
Alimony

If the question is, how much is someone earning, there are better ways to get that information than exposing information that really is none of your business.
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Old 6th January 2019, 09:03 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
My company get very, very nervous when us here at the coal face start discussing our salaries. They'd like to stop us doing it entirely but they're not actually allowed to (they just pretend they're allowed to). It's very much to their advantage to keep those who do the actual work in the dark about relative salaries, that way they can pay less.
That's all well and good, but why do you need to have access to my information, that goes beyond salary, in a totally unrelated field?
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Old 7th January 2019, 03:57 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
That's all well and good, but why do you need to have access to my information, that goes beyond salary, in a totally unrelated field?
Why wouldn't you want me to?

What if I'm considering working in your field?
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Old 7th January 2019, 06:31 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Why wouldn't you want me to?
Because none of it is any of your business.

Quote:
What if I'm considering working in your field?
I'm a federal public sector employee. If you wanted to know how much I make, you could, perhaps rather than demand I give up all sorts of data to which you couldn't even pretend to come up with a reason that you needed it, just ask me.

Or use the resources currently available:
https://www.fedsdatacenter.com/federal-pay-rates/
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-over...eral-schedule/

Why do you think you are entitled to the information I previously listed? Specifically:
Sexual orientation (marital information)
Number of children
Address
Parents name and income
Grandparents (The IRS could create some fairly detailed family trees)
Health Care information
- major illnesses could be determined by who got paid.
Favored charities
Alimony
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Old 8th January 2019, 01:06 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Because none of it is any of your business.

Okay, that's a reason not to tell me, but what's your reasoning for not wanting anyone to know?



Quote:
I'm a federal public sector employee. If you wanted to know how much I make, you could, perhaps rather than demand I give up all sorts of data to which you couldn't even pretend to come up with a reason that you needed it, just ask me.
Well, personally, I have no actual interest in what you earn. I'm quite interested in why, in general, people don't like others knowing, hence the question


Quote:
Or use the resources currently available:
https://www.fedsdatacenter.com/federal-pay-rates/
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-over...eral-schedule/

Why do you think you are entitled to the information I previously listed?
I don't think I said I was, did I?

Quote:
Specifically:
Sexual orientation (marital information)
Number of children
Address
Parents name and income
Grandparents (The IRS could create some fairly detailed family trees)
Health Care information
- major illnesses could be determined by who got paid.
Favored charities
Alimony

Again - why? Not for the above, but specifically your salary - why is it that you, and others, get hot under the collar when there's talk of sharing salary information?
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Old 8th January 2019, 06:49 AM   #139
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So basically government employees have no rights at all because they work for us?
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:06 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Okay, that's a reason not to tell me, but what's your reasoning for not wanting anyone to know?
Because it's really none of your business. It has zero impact on your life. I'm not here to satisfy your voyeurism.

Quote:
I don't think I said I was, did I?
Yes, it is. You've stated, because of some nebulous, undefined claims about free market, that you should have access to all sorts of everyone's personal data. It's a claim of entitlement.

Quote:
Again - why? Not for the above, but specifically your salary - why is it that you, and others, get hot under the collar when there's talk of sharing salary information?
You've, and others, have not been talking about income but tax returns. And I guess without really understanding what is on that documents. You are not asking for salary info, but tax returns. And there is a difference.

Also, you've yet to explain why you need it but rather flip that and put that burden on others. If you want the data, you have to explain why you are entitled to it rather than have me explain to you why you aren't entitled to any of my information.

Double also, why not use the data compiled by the BLS in the National Compensation Survey? Why do you need to know what a specific person earns? Why is it any of your business?
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:17 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Because it's really none of your business. It has zero impact on your life. I'm not here to satisfy your voyeurism.

Yeah, but why? Why is it something that you, and others, want to keep so private? What consequences of revealing your remuneration concern you?



Quote:
Yes, it is. You've stated, because of some nebulous, undefined claims about free market, that you should have access to all sorts of everyone's personal data. It's a claim of entitlement.
I really haven't. I've asked some questions regarding the topic. I haven't stated anything at all, as far as I'm aware. I'm making no demands whatosever. I just want to know why it's such an emotive subject for you and others.



Quote:
You've, and others, have not been talking about income but tax returns. And I guess without really understanding what is on that documents. You are not asking for salary info, but tax returns. And there is a difference.
Well, the same applies to tax returns - why would you, and others, not want the world to see your tax returns. What are the possible negative consequences?


Quote:
Also, you've yet to explain why you need it but rather flip that and put that burden on others.
I really haven't said I need it at any point. It's an interesting topic and a curious one and I've asked questions. I have made no demands, that's just you reading stuff into what I'm writing[/quote]



Quote:
If you want the data, you have to explain why you are entitled to it rather than have me explain to you why you aren't entitled to any of my information.
I'm not asking for the data. I'm asking why you, and others have such a taboo against revealing how much you earn.


Quote:
Double also, why not use the data compiled by the BLS in the National Compensation Survey? Why do you need to know what a specific person earns? Why is it any of your business?
As I've said, I'm happy to accpet that.

I just want to know why it's such an emotive topic for you and others.
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:53 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So basically government employees have no rights at all because they work for us?
Your negotiation with an employer is a mutual arrangement. In the event you don't see eye to eye on terms, then sever the arrangement.
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Old 8th January 2019, 09:02 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I just want to know why it's such an emotive topic for you and others.
Privacy tends to do that. Also, this is nothing more than "if you've got nothing to hide" type thinking.

If you feel entitled to my information, you need to make a positive case for it and not just presumptions as to my intentions.
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Old 8th January 2019, 01:00 PM   #144
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This law would be Congress adding a condition to the Presidency, which it cannot do.

They might be able to get away with it as a condition of accepting government funds for the election, but even then is iffy.
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Old 8th January 2019, 02:32 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
This law would be Congress adding a condition to the Presidency, which it cannot do.

They might be able to get away with it as a condition of accepting government funds for the election, but even then is iffy.
Not a constitutional lawyer, but I think it would run afoul of the 4th amendment if the government were the ones making it public. And, as compelled speech, the 1st in other releases.
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Old 8th January 2019, 03:07 PM   #146
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Also, the motivation, as with Bill Clinton, when the shoe was on the other foot, is to use the machinery of government to hurt a political opponent, which a good chunk of the Constitution revolves around preventing.

That alone suggests against it.
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Old 8th January 2019, 03:10 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'm not asking for the data. I'm asking why you, and others have such a taboo against revealing how much you earn.

As I've said, I'm happy to accpet that.

I just want to know why it's such an emotive topic for you and others.
It goes more towards the 'support your own claim' argument, where the person who says private information should be public must provide evidence to support their claim, rather than the person whose information is being desired having to fight for their privacy.

I can think of many reasons off the top of my head why someone might not want their deadbeat exes, druggie family, cash-strapped friends, children eager for inheritance, etc, to be able to see exactly how much money someone might have and whether they've spent it all yet or not.
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Old 8th January 2019, 03:16 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Because none of it is any of your business.



I'm a federal public sector employee. If you wanted to know how much I make, you could, perhaps rather than demand I give up all sorts of data to which you couldn't even pretend to come up with a reason that you needed it, just ask me.
I work for a large Canadian research university. Any public employee with a salary of more than $100K is on a list. It's called the Sunshine list. I can easily see what many of my colleagues are earning.
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Old 8th January 2019, 04:55 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I work for a large Canadian research university. Any public employee with a salary of more than $100K is on a list. It's called the Sunshine list. I can easily see what many of my colleagues are earning.
I posted a link that shares income information for most federal public employee. Some employees, including me, are excluded by law.

Keep in mind, if it were just income information, I'd be less bothered. But the request for the 1040, and all sorts of other information, is still the request. And we still have 4th amendment rights when it comes tax info.
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Old 8th January 2019, 05:36 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
I work for a large Canadian research university. Any public employee with a salary of more than $100K is on a list. It's called the Sunshine list. I can easily see what many of my colleagues are earning.
But what is being asked is to know how much an employee spent on their family health care that year.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:42 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Privacy tends to do that. Also, this is nothing more than "if you've got nothing to hide" type thinking.
No. I'm not actually asking you to reveal anything. There's no ""If you've got nothing to hide..." here because I'm not asking for any details. I am happy to accept your "It's none of your business".


I'm just trying to explore the why of it and, while you've told me in several ways that I'm not entitled to that knowledge and I have accepted that, you still haven't told me why you, and others, are so dead set against revealing your remuneration.



Quote:
If you feel entitled to my information, you need to make a positive case for it and not just presumptions as to my intentions.

I don't feel entitled to it.

But you'll let people know what car you drive, where you go on holiday, where your house is and how many rooms it has. You'll tell the world about your holidays and events you attend, weddings you might have to pay for, all that stuff, but not actually the number at the bottom of your payslip.

Again, I'm not asking you to reveal anything, but I am asking why you're so dead set against doing so?
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:45 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
It goes more towards the 'support your own claim' argument, where the person who says private information should be public must provide evidence to support their claim, rather than the person whose information is being desired having to fight for their privacy.

I'm not making a claim. I'm asking a question.


Quote:
I can think of many reasons off the top of my head why someone might not want their deadbeat exes, druggie family, cash-strapped friends, children eager for inheritance, etc, to be able to see exactly how much money someone might have and whether they've spent it all yet or not.

My thanks, this is the sort of answer I was looking for.

I think I must be very bad at asking questions.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:53 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think I must be very bad at asking questions.
Forums, with the lack of tone and body language cues, are very prone to misunderstanding. And as argumentative as we are here, once one occurs it's hard to get back on a different track. Happens to all of us frequently
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:06 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No. I'm not actually asking you to reveal anything. There's no ""If you've got nothing to hide..." here because I'm not asking for any details. I am happy to accept your "It's none of your business".
No you are not, because :
Quote:
I'm just trying to explore the why of it and, while you've told me in several ways that I'm not entitled to that knowledge and I have accepted that, you still haven't told me why you, and others, are so dead set against revealing your remuneration.
If you have accepted that it's absolutely none of your business, and still ask for it, you've not accepted the fact it's none of your damn business. You've not accepted it because you are now asking to have it explained to you why it's none of your damn business. That is not acceptance, it's exactly the opposite of it.

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I don't feel entitled to it.
All indications point otherwise.

Quote:
But you'll let people know what car you drive, where you go on holiday, where your house is and how many rooms it has. You'll tell the world about your holidays and events you attend, weddings you might have to pay for, all that stuff, but not actually the number at the bottom of your payslip.
OK, tell me what car (s) I own, where I went on my last holiday, and where my house is. I don't share any of that information with the general public. While I do have a FB account, it's effectively empty.

Quote:
Again, I'm not asking you to reveal anything, but I am asking why you're so dead set against doing so?
You are asking the government to do it for you. Not a fan of that, either. And what happened to the acceptance of the fact you aren't entitled to the information because it's none of your damn business.

You still haven't addressed the issue that you want to violate my privacy without any justification.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:14 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Trump's base get bent out of shape over helping the less fortunate via (lawful) social assistance programs, but would happily give Trump a pass for criminally cheating the country by avoiding to pay his fair share of tax.

Actually, that's something of an endemic American mindset: The lazy bums on welfare don't deserve my contribution to bettering their lot, but the rich cheat is admired for getting one over on 'the Man'. A sadly myopic viewpoint borne of the delusion that government is something of an 'other' entity, instead of (nominally) the collective will of a civilized society to function cohesively and fairly.
It also seems to be a symptom of the pernicious idea of the American Dream; the silly notion that if you work hard, you'll be a billionaire at some point, too, and you'll take that money away from me only over my dead body.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:19 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Have you ever heard the expression 'the perfect is the enemy of the good'? We don't refrain from implementing desirable practices solely because we can't guarantee absolutely perfect results. We don't rip out all the stoplights because it's physically possible to run the reds. We don't abandon medicine because all patients will eventually die anyway.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Have you ever heard the expression that not all change is progress? We should only implement laws and policies that will effect the change we are actually seeking.
...er... also thank you.

Damn. Two good points in opposition.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:19 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
You still haven't addressed the issue that you want to violate my privacy without any justification.

No, I haven't. If you can show me where I have asked you how much you earn, then I will apologise. Until then, I will still attempt to have you at least acknowledge the question I'm asking, not the one you think I'm asking.



Why is that you don't want others to know what you earn?

I fully accept, as I have said many times, that you have no obligation whatsoever to tell me how much you earn. I really, really want to know why it's so emotive for you? What are your reasons for not wanting me or anyone else to know what you earn?

You clearly have reasons that you hold very dear, given your emotive response to the question you think I've asked, but I want to know why it's such an emotional subject for you? Why is it that you're so dead set against sharing salary? What is it that you think will happen if you do?




Edit:

Let me try to explain it this way:

My inside leg measurement is none of anyone's damn business. However, if anyone asks, I'll tell them - it might be none of their business, but it's no big deal to me if they know.

However, if someone asks for my sexual history, well, it's none of anyone's damn business and, not only that, but if I tell them they might think I'm a terrible slut/have no success with women, and this will affect their view of me, therefore I'd rather they did not know.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:20 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It also seems to be a symptom of the pernicious idea of the American Dream; the silly notion that if you work hard, you'll be a billionaire at some point, too, and you'll take that money away from me only over my dead body.
To oversimplify it somewhat Conservatives tend to have strong positive emotional reactions to stories of people who accomplish things while Liberals tend to have strong positive emotional reactions to people who go through things.

Conservatives like winners, Liberals like survivors.

The problem is reality is not that clear cut. Life is sometimes a zero sum game, sometimes not.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:27 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So basically government employees have no rights at all because they work for us?
When you seek employment, there are things you may be required to reveal to your potential employer about your past (criminal record, for instance). I don't see why this couldn't apply for public employment.
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Old 9th January 2019, 09:28 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Conservatives like winners, Liberals like survivors.
If I like both equally, what does that make me?
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