[Continuation] Australian Politics - The Morrison Period Part II - Page 7

lionking · 15th August 2021, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Only trouble is that the NSW election is due on Saturday 25 March 2023. That is another 19 months away.

Ref: https://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/Ele...eral-elections

Maybe, but her mismanagement will not be forgotten any time soon.

Norman Alexander · 15th August 2021, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

NSW is being rewarded for letting the outbreak happen. They are still allowing people to self-declare as essential workers and do not mandate masks outdoors.

Incorrect.

Authorised workers.
Not on this list and try to pretend you are? Have a $5000 fine.

https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/rule...orised-workers

Mask rules.

Quote:

A person may remove their mask if they are:

eating or drinking
communicating with another person who is deaf or hard of hearing
at work and the nature of the work makes the wearing of a fitted face covering a risk to the person's, or another persons' health and safety, or where clear enunciation or visibility of your mouth is essential
asked to remove their mask for identity purposes
in an emergency situation
doing strenuous exercise (except when you are in a gym class or a dance class)
at a correctional centre, place of custody, or hospital
a resident at an aged care were facility
a guest in a hotel/motel room and in your room
in the process of getting married
working alone in an office (until another person enters)
in a vehicle alone or with another person from your household.

Otherwise, keep it on. That means outside anywhere.

lionking · 16th August 2021, 10:09 PM

This is on topic I believe. My daughter was on the Guardian podcast today. She is being screwed over by Centrelink. Despite being constantly in contact with them and asking if they were sure the payments were right, they nevertheless overpaid her $1200, a lot for a student renting in the inner suburbs (we would have her stay with us in a heartbeat, but Ms Independent).

Anyway, she appealed and was told that she did nothing wrong, but she had to pay. Her point on the podcast was that how can the likes of Jerry Harvey keep millions in Jobkeeper when his profits rose last year, but she just has to pay it back. The heartless Centrelink bastards told her it was never her money. Yet multi-millionaire retailers are told “good for you, keep the cash”.

She also made the point that it is pretty harsh chasing debts during tough lockdowns where people like her can’t work.

There is nothing identifiable in the podcast , so if anyone is interested:

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-debt-recovery

arthwollipot · 16th August 2021, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

NSW is being rewarded for letting the outbreak happen. They are still allowing people to self-declare as essential workers and do not mandate masks outdoors.

It was easy for me to get a letter declaring me an essential worker. I'm partly responsible for ensuring that the Federal Government keeps working during the lockdown, so all I really had to do was (truthfully) say that I don't have an office space at home suitable for the ergonomic equipment I have.

Norman Alexander · 17th August 2021, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

This is on topic I believe. My daughter was on the Guardian podcast today. She is being screwed over by Centrelink. Despite being constantly in contact with them and asking if they were sure the payments were right, they nevertheless overpaid her $1200, a lot for a student renting in the inner suburbs (we would have her stay with us in a heartbeat, but Ms Independent).

Anyway, she appealed and was told that she did nothing wrong, but she had to pay. Her point on the podcast was that how can the likes of Jerry Harvey keep millions in Jobkeeper when his profits rose last year, but she just has to pay it back. The heartless Centrelink bastards told her it was never her money. Yet multi-millionaire retailers are told “good for you, keep the cash”.

She also made the point that it is pretty harsh chasing debts during tough lockdowns where people like her can’t work.

There is nothing identifiable in the podcast , so if anyone is interested:

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-debt-recovery

She clearly isn't a mate of the LNP.

My mother aged 93 who is in a nursing home is in much the same boat. Before Dad died, he used to send an annual statement of income to CentreLink that justified the pension level they were being paid (to do with medical expenses, etc.). It meant CentreLink payments were higher than "normal" for them both.

After he died, Mum simply did not know what was going on. Dad did all the paperwork (he was a CPA) and she had no idea. So for a couple of years, she did not send in the paperwork. But CentreLink kept paying her at the same rate as two people, and at a higher rate as previously.

Then Robodebt kicked in. It found this overpayment had occurred for a few years since Dad died, and the debt collectors were sent in. Clearly a muddled 90yo was scamming the system!

The family spent many hours with CentreLink on Mum's behalf trying to understand the situation, unravel it all, and get it managed. That included getting Enduring Power of Attorney and Enduring Guardianship. Which should have alerted CentreLink that something was not right. So the negotiations began. How did Mum rack up X-thousand in debt? What was the reason? How do we wind this back? Etc. We gradually windlassed details out of them, but it was clear it was a result of them simply failing to check with Mum for paperwork the first time it didn't appear, i.e. immediately after Dad died years previously.

Meanwhile, Mum had a couple of strokes and had to be put in care. So she was often oblivious to these machinations. But one day a (scumbag) CentreLink debt-chaser called her (in bed in the care home just after another stroke) and told her that she was going to have her pension docked to pay her debts. And was she OK with that? Somehow they took Mum's whimpers as assent. Which undermined the whole negotiation process.

So now Mum's meager pension is being docked to pay a debt she has no idea why she accrued. And this was just before Robodebt was revealed to be a giant and unconscionable lemon-squeezer anyway.

Bastards.

I wish your daughter luck!

lionking · 17th August 2021, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

She clearly isn't a mate of the LNP.

My mother aged 93 who is in a nursing home is in much the same boat. Before Dad died, he used to send an annual statement of income to CentreLink that justified the pension level they were being paid (to do with medical expenses, etc.). It meant CentreLink payments were higher than "normal" for them both.

After he died, Mum simply did not know what was going on. Dad did all the paperwork (he was a CPA) and she had no idea. So for a couple of years, she did not send in the paperwork. But CentreLink kept paying her at the same rate as two people, and at a higher rate as previously.

Then Robodebt kicked in. It found this overpayment had occurred for a few years since Dad died, and the debt collectors were sent in. Clearly a muddled 90yo was scamming the system!

The family spent many hours with CentreLink on Mum's behalf trying to understand the situation, unravel it all, and get it managed. That included getting Enduring Power of Attorney and Enduring Guardianship. Which should have alerted CentreLink that something was not right. So the negotiations began. How did Mum rack up X-thousand in debt? What was the reason? How do we wind this back? Etc. We gradually windlassed details out of them, but it was clear it was a result of them simply failing to check with Mum for paperwork the first time it didn't appear, i.e. immediately after Dad died years previously.

Meanwhile, Mum had a couple of strokes and had to be put in care. So she was often oblivious to these machinations. But one day a (scumbag) CentreLink debt-chaser called her (in bed in the care home just after another stroke) and told her that she was going to have her pension docked to pay her debts. And was she OK with that? Somehow they took Mum's whimpers as assent. Which undermined the whole negotiation process.

So now Mum's meager pension is being docked to pay a debt she has no idea why she accrued. And this was just before Robodebt was revealed to be a giant and unconscionable lemon-squeezer anyway.

Bastards.

I wish your daughter luck!

Thank you for this post.

I used to work in the public service, including Centrelink’s predecessor, the Department of Social Security. Back in the 1970-80s. There was always recovery action, but not outright bastardry. This is pure LNP “support for farmers and businesses good, support for unemployed bad” ********.

I will, of course, cover my daughter’s overpayment, but I will try to negotiate something like $2 a fortnight repayment schedule. **** them.

Norman Alexander · 17th August 2021, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Thank you for this post.

I used to work in the public service, including Centrelink’s predecessor, the Department of Social Security. Back in the 1970-80s. There was always recovery action, but not outright bastardry. This is pure LNP “support for farmers and businesses good, support for unemployed bad” ********.

I will, of course, cover my daughter’s overpayment, but I will try to negotiate something like $2 a fortnight repayment schedule. **** them.

Exactly. My brother has some shorter, more Anglo-Saxon words to describe them.

More details.

The CentreLink staff in the centres I visited all tried to be helpful insofar as they could go. They sympathised and did their best to alleviate the situation. So it wasn't the whole department is a pack of bastards.

We discovered CentreLink has outsourced the debt collection. It means they are "not responsible" for how it is collected, so complaining to them is pointless. And the debt-collection people have no conscience. At all. They treat 93yo invalids the same way as feral "housos" - by coming the heavy with them. I'm normally pretty pacifist and laid back. But if I ever catch the one who monstered Mum, I will kick his balls into next week and laugh.

Like you, we have managed to negotiate Mum's regular repayment, i.e. pension clipping, to the absolute minimum. It still means a fair chunk out of it, and she will need to keep paying until she dies. They initially wanted to take it all, which would have meant being removed from care. All her pension goes to the facility; and no pay, no care.

lionking · 17th August 2021, 06:32 PM

633 cases now in NSW. R number, according to serial liar Gladys, is 1.3. I’ll bet it’s much more. Either way the state is ****** because the rules aren’t strict (houses can still be inspected, “recreation” is allowable) and those that are in place are being ignored. The place is beyond contact tracing. Gladys must go.

lionking · 17th August 2021, 06:36 PM

I also find in the press conference that you can play golf in Sydney. They are not serious at all.

Norman Alexander · 17th August 2021, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

633 cases now in NSW. R number, according to serial liar Gladys, is 1.3. I’ll bet it’s much more. Either way the state is ****** because the rules aren’t strict (houses can still be inspected, “recreation” is allowable) and those that are in place are being ignored. The place is beyond contact tracing. Gladys must go.

As i asked before, how on Earth does this help. Bariloro, her deputy, is a LOT worse.

Orphia Nay · 17th August 2021, 07:10 PM

Dr Chant (NSW Chief Health Officer) is very worried as she said a couple of times. What influence does she have on restrictions?

Norman Alexander · 17th August 2021, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

I also find in the press conference that you can play golf in Sydney. They are not serious at all.

Incorrect.

https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/rule...onable-excuses

Quote:

Exercise and outdoor recreation

Stay within your local government area. If you need to cross into another local government area, you must stay within 5km of your home.
If travelling by a private vehicle (car), do not share a car with people you do not live with, except your nominated visitor ("singles bubble").
You can exercise with 1 other person that you do not live with, or your nominated visitor ("singles bubble").
If you live with more than 2 other people, you can all go out together for exercise.

Quote:

Other reasonable excuses

It is also considered a reasonable excuse to leave your home if you need to

donate blood
access childcare
continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children
attend a funeral or memorial service that complies with the rules for funerals and memorial services
provide care or assistance (including personal care) to a vulnerable person or to provide emergency assistance
only 1 person may visit a residence to provide care at any one time
access social services, employment services, services provided to victims (including as victims of crime), domestic violence services, and mental health services
undertake legal obligations
avoid injury or illness or to escape the risk of harm
in case of emergencies
for compassionate reasons, including where two people are in a relationship but do not necessarily live together
to provide pastoral care if you are a priest, minister of religion or member of a religious order
gathering at Parliament for the purpose of its normal operations.

Can I suggest that some of the questions some reporters ask at press conferences are deliberately misleading provocations in order to generate headlines.

Orphia Nay · 17th August 2021, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Can I suggest that some of the questions some reporters ask at press conferences are deliberately misleading provocations in order to generate headlines.

That's exactly it. Been saying it for ages.

The press conference question time is a gotcha session.

arthwollipot · 17th August 2021, 08:19 PM

I've got a mate who worked as counter staff in Centrelink Braddon. He said that it was a good day when they only had to call the police twice to deal with a problematic customer. He also told me about the ridiculously arcane and unnecessarily complicated computer system that has so much legacy data that to update it would be a billion-dollar project and no government is willing to give them that money.

I don't let Centrelink off the hook, but I cut them a little slack. Its problems are real, and not easy to fix.

lionking · 17th August 2021, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Incorrect.

https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/rule...onable-excuses

Can I suggest that some of the questions some reporters ask at press conferences are deliberately misleading provocations in order to generate headlines.

Golf NSW disagrees.

https://www.golfnsw.org.au/news/2021...update-latest/

Quote:

Golf NSW has been advised that golf is considered exercise and can continue if your Club has and complies with its COVID-19 Safety Plan.

Norman Alexander · 17th August 2021, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

Golf NSW disagrees.

https://www.golfnsw.org.au/news/2021...update-latest/

See the rules above. And this is still WITH masking.

Quote:

You can exercise with 1 other person that you do not live with, or your nominated visitor ("singles bubble").
If you live with more than 2 other people, you can all go out together for exercise.

A bunch of yobs beering around a course mask-free is non-compliant. Ping them if you see them.

Norman Alexander · 17th August 2021, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Dr Chant (NSW Chief Health Officer) is very worried as she said a couple of times. What influence does she have on restrictions?

The government "listens to" and "takes" health advice. Doesn't mean they follow it, or have to take it into account, when making decisions. Pernickety word-play is great for plausible deniability.

The Atheist · 17th August 2021, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I don't let Centrelink off the hook, but I cut them a little slack. Its problems are real, and not easy to fix.

Sounds exactly the same as here, which is what I'd expect.

And those problems lead to a woefully inadequate type of employee - if you had a few clues, why the hell would you work there? Vilified by everyone, threatened on the job, aged infrastructure, poor conditions... and all for quite lousy money.

Join Centrelink Now!

lionking · 17th August 2021, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I've got a mate who worked as counter staff in Centrelink Braddon. He said that it was a good day when they only had to call the police twice to deal with a problematic customer. He also told me about the ridiculously arcane and unnecessarily complicated computer system that has so much legacy data that to update it would be a billion-dollar project and no government is willing to give them that money.

I don't let Centrelink off the hook, but I cut them a little slack. Its problems are real, and not easy to fix.

I get this. I worked for the CES in the 1990s, when it’s job was to assess clients for benefits before passing it over to the Department of Social Security. I saw the violent, angry customers and poor systems. But I also saw a lot of staff who had no regard for clients, and many who were work shy. I don’t think much changed when Centrelink was created from these two departments.

Norman Alexander · 17th August 2021, 09:20 PM

Curious. This massive statewide outbreak is the sort of thing you might expect to occur about two weeks to a month after some super-spreader event attended by careless maskless unvaccinated crowds of virus-kettles who came from all over the state and congregated in close gatherings while shouting...

arthwollipot · 17th August 2021, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Curious. This massive statewide outbreak is the sort of thing you might expect to occur about two weeks to a month after some super-spreader event attended by careless maskless unvaccinated crowds of virus-kettles who came from all over the state and congregated in close gatherings while shouting...

Yeah. Weird, that.

rjh01 · 18th August 2021, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Curious. This massive statewide outbreak is the sort of thing you might expect to occur about two weeks to a month after some super-spreader event attended by careless maskless unvaccinated crowds of virus-kettles who came from all over the state and congregated in close gatherings while shouting...

Just had a look at that. Your timing is right. It would explain why we suddenly had heaps of cases in the ACT. A number of people came back from these protests with Covid and spread it around the place. The ACT has had more cases than what I would expect from one person.

ACT exposure sites https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/act-s...sure-locations

News article on the protest in Sydney. Note date. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-57960044

arthwollipot · 18th August 2021, 01:29 AM

The original source of the Canberra outbreak hasn't been positively identified yet, but I'd be pretty astounded if it weren't that.

lionking · 18th August 2021, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Just had a look at that. Your timing is right. It would explain why we suddenly had heaps of cases in the ACT. A number of people came back from these protests with Covid and spread it around the place. The ACT has had more cases than what I would expect from one person.

ACT exposure sites https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/act-s...sure-locations

News article on the protest in Sydney. Note date. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-57960044

It’s possible, but I think it’s more likely there were very many seeds of this disaster. Some from protests, some from selfish congregations at beaches and parks, but most from people illegally visiting other family members.

The biggest super spreader event, however, was the NSW government’s unforgivable delay in locking down and letting retail, hospitality and construction simply carry on for weeks before their mockdown, with loopholes you could drive a D Triple through.

This is all on Gladys.

Wildy · 18th August 2021, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

As i asked before, how on Earth does this help. Bariloro, her deputy, is a LOT worse.

Why would Barilaro become premier?

lionking · 18th August 2021, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

Why would Barilaro become premier?

That’s my belief too. There is no doubt that the LNP is conducting focus groups like crazy (as is the ALP) in the effort to find a non-toxic candidate.

Norman Alexander · 18th August 2021, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Wildy

Why would Barilaro become premier?

He's the Deputy Premier. Gladys walks or is tossed, he's in the top chair.

Of course, that is not guaranteed. Could be a complete spill of the positions in a party room late one night. In which case, expect anything to happen!

Orphia Nay · 19th August 2021, 08:42 PM

There are gotcha sessions and there are gotcha sessions.

The media seemed pretty angry at Gladys at the press conference this morning.

arthwollipot · 19th August 2021, 10:36 PM

I think there might be a reason for that.

Norman Alexander · 19th August 2021, 11:07 PM

Looks like I will need a permit to travel to my work, now. Hmm....

arthwollipot · 19th August 2021, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

Looks like I will need a permit to travel to my work, now. Hmm....

I've got one. Haven't been asked to show it yet, but I will.

lionking · 20th August 2021, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I've got one. Haven't been asked to show it yet, but I will.

I could ask for one, but I won’t bother. I can get my job done through zoom and online. It’s not ideal, but it works.

Norman Alexander · 20th August 2021, 07:26 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I've got one. Haven't been asked to show it yet, but I will.

Previously my work ID, which is my hospital employee access card on a lanyard, was sufficient. Now they want an official piece of paper from a different government department saying that the lanyard is valid.

Originally Posted by lionking

I could ask for one, but I won’t bother. I can get my job done through zoom and online. It’s not ideal, but it works.

Ditto. My work PC is on a VPN, so I can work just the same as at my desk in the office (but slower - the NBN here is FTTN which sucks sweaty dogs' bollox).

psionl0 · 20th August 2021, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

I could ask for one, but I won’t bother. I can get my job done through zoom and online. It’s not ideal, but it works.

That is one of the few positive outcomes of the covid virus.

Having to transport bodies around to do jobs that are essentially only about transferring information is a massive logistical problem and a major cause of pollution and the destruction of the environment.

It is to be hoped that the aftermath of the covid crisis will be a paradigm shift in how jobs get done.

lionking · 20th August 2021, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That is one of the few positive outcomes of the covid virus.

Having to transport bodies around to do jobs that are essentially only about transferring information is a massive logistical problem and a major cause of pollution and the destruction of the environment.

It is to be hoped that the aftermath of the covid crisis will be a paradigm shift in how jobs get done.

I don’t fully agree. Transferring information over zoom is not always enough. With my job I’m required to decide if the workplace is a suitable and safe environment for training, with proper procedures and equipment. I can’t do that over zoom. The government (who we have a contract with) definitely wants us on the road.

rjh01 · 20th August 2021, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by lionking

I don’t fully agree. Transferring information over zoom is not always enough. With my job I’m required to decide if the workplace is a suitable and safe environment for training, with proper procedures and equipment. I can’t do that over zoom. The government (who we have a contract with) definitely wants us on the road.

Of course, there will be some jobs where an on-site presence is required. But in many cases, it can be done much cheaper via zoom or similar technology. For example, if all you want is to discuss an issue, then there is no need to go anywhere a zoom meeting will, in most cases, be enough.

novaphile · 20th August 2021, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Of course, there will be some jobs where an on-site presence is required. But in many cases, it can be done much cheaper via zoom or similar technology. For example, if all you want is to discuss an issue, then there is no need to go anywhere a zoom meeting will, in most cases, be enough.

I'm hanging out for telepresence robots...

It's interesting where I work. My direct line managers, and the organisation itself, are saying "stay at home if in any way possible".

Some of the project managers are saying: "You have to come in to work."

I'm sticking with my direct chain of command at this stage.

But, it does make me wonder what they're expecting.

I'm guessing that they're receiving reports that it's inevitable that the delta strain will be brought to the wilds of South Australia, and we want to reduce the risk as much as possible.

lionking · 20th August 2021, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by rjh01

Of course, there will be some jobs where an on-site presence is required. But in many cases, it can be done much cheaper via zoom or similar technology. For example, if all you want is to discuss an issue, then there is no need to go anywhere a zoom meeting will, in most cases, be enough.

I don’t agree. Why do you think that pre-covid business flights around Australia were at record levels? Because you can only get to build rapport, get to know people and communicate more effectively face-to-face. Every move away from face-to-face loses information. Business flights will return as the vaccination takes control.

lionking · 20th August 2021, 06:51 PM

A new record set by NSW, with 825 daily infections, soon to reach over 1000. Gladys is a national embarrassment. At today’s press conference saying that no state can control the virus, and that case numbers are really unimportant. Have a talk to WA, Qld, SA and Tas. And also in Vic when we control the virus in a couple of weeks.

She is also dividing Sydney with higher restrictions is western and south-western suburbs. NSW has also stopped publishing exposure sites, because, according to the Health Department, it just confuses people.

Orphia Nay · 20th August 2021, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That is one of the few positive outcomes of the covid virus.

Having to transport bodies around to do jobs that are essentially only about transferring information is a massive logistical problem and a major cause of pollution and the destruction of the environment.

It is to be hoped that the aftermath of the covid crisis will be a paradigm shift in how jobs get done.

Yes, I saw a few graphics last year of the difference to before covid in China, and how the pollution had drastically diminished.

Sadly it started going back up in line with covid getting under control there.

Thanks, now I need to check what it's like now.

15th August 2021, 02:23 AM	#241
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by rjh01 Only trouble is that the NSW election is due on Saturday 25 March 2023. That is another 19 months away. Ref: https://www.elections.nsw.gov.au/Ele...eral-elections Maybe, but her mismanagement will not be forgotten any time soon.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

15th August 2021, 05:06 AM	#242
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by lionking NSW is being rewarded for letting the outbreak happen. They are still allowing people to self-declare as essential workers and do not mandate masks outdoors. Incorrect. Authorised workers. Not on this list and try to pretend you are? Have a $5000 fine. https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/rule...orised-workers Mask rules. Quote: A person may remove their mask if they are: eating or drinking communicating with another person who is deaf or hard of hearing at work and the nature of the work makes the wearing of a fitted face covering a risk to the person's, or another persons' health and safety, or where clear enunciation or visibility of your mouth is essential asked to remove their mask for identity purposes in an emergency situation doing strenuous exercise (except when you are in a gym class or a dance class) at a correctional centre, place of custody, or hospital a resident at an aged care were facility a guest in a hotel/motel room and in your room in the process of getting married working alone in an office (until another person enters) in a vehicle alone or with another person from your household. Otherwise, keep it on. That means outside anywhere.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

16th August 2021, 10:09 PM	#243
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	This is on topic I believe. My daughter was on the Guardian podcast today. She is being screwed over by Centrelink. Despite being constantly in contact with them and asking if they were sure the payments were right, they nevertheless overpaid her $1200, a lot for a student renting in the inner suburbs (we would have her stay with us in a heartbeat, but Ms Independent). Anyway, she appealed and was told that she did nothing wrong, but she had to pay. Her point on the podcast was that how can the likes of Jerry Harvey keep millions in Jobkeeper when his profits rose last year, but she just has to pay it back. The heartless Centrelink bastards told her it was never her money. Yet multi-millionaire retailers are told “good for you, keep the cash”. She also made the point that it is pretty harsh chasing debts during tough lockdowns where people like her can’t work. There is nothing identifiable in the podcast , so if anyone is interested: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-debt-recovery
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill Last edited by lionking; 16th August 2021 at 10:11 PM.

16th August 2021, 11:04 PM	#244
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Originally Posted by lionking NSW is being rewarded for letting the outbreak happen. They are still allowing people to self-declare as essential workers and do not mandate masks outdoors. It was easy for me to get a letter declaring me an essential worker. I'm partly responsible for ensuring that the Federal Government keeps working during the lockdown, so all I really had to do was (truthfully) say that I don't have an office space at home suitable for the ergonomic equipment I have.
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17th August 2021, 01:34 AM	#245
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by lionking This is on topic I believe. My daughter was on the Guardian podcast today. She is being screwed over by Centrelink. Despite being constantly in contact with them and asking if they were sure the payments were right, they nevertheless overpaid her $1200, a lot for a student renting in the inner suburbs (we would have her stay with us in a heartbeat, but Ms Independent). Anyway, she appealed and was told that she did nothing wrong, but she had to pay. Her point on the podcast was that how can the likes of Jerry Harvey keep millions in Jobkeeper when his profits rose last year, but she just has to pay it back. The heartless Centrelink bastards told her it was never her money. Yet multi-millionaire retailers are told “good for you, keep the cash”. She also made the point that it is pretty harsh chasing debts during tough lockdowns where people like her can’t work. There is nothing identifiable in the podcast , so if anyone is interested: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...-debt-recovery She clearly isn't a mate of the LNP. My mother aged 93 who is in a nursing home is in much the same boat. Before Dad died, he used to send an annual statement of income to CentreLink that justified the pension level they were being paid (to do with medical expenses, etc.). It meant CentreLink payments were higher than "normal" for them both. After he died, Mum simply did not know what was going on. Dad did all the paperwork (he was a CPA) and she had no idea. So for a couple of years, she did not send in the paperwork. But CentreLink kept paying her at the same rate as two people, and at a higher rate as previously. Then Robodebt kicked in. It found this overpayment had occurred for a few years since Dad died, and the debt collectors were sent in. Clearly a muddled 90yo was scamming the system! The family spent many hours with CentreLink on Mum's behalf trying to understand the situation, unravel it all, and get it managed. That included getting Enduring Power of Attorney and Enduring Guardianship. Which should have alerted CentreLink that something was not right. So the negotiations began. How did Mum rack up X-thousand in debt? What was the reason? How do we wind this back? Etc. We gradually windlassed details out of them, but it was clear it was a result of them simply failing to check with Mum for paperwork the first time it didn't appear, i.e. immediately after Dad died years previously. Meanwhile, Mum had a couple of strokes and had to be put in care. So she was often oblivious to these machinations. But one day a (scumbag) CentreLink debt-chaser called her (in bed in the care home just after another stroke) and told her that she was going to have her pension docked to pay her debts. And was she OK with that? Somehow they took Mum's whimpers as assent. Which undermined the whole negotiation process. So now Mum's meager pension is being docked to pay a debt she has no idea why she accrued. And this was just before Robodebt was revealed to be a giant and unconscionable lemon-squeezer anyway. Bastards. I wish your daughter luck!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th August 2021, 07:25 AM	#246
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander She clearly isn't a mate of the LNP. My mother aged 93 who is in a nursing home is in much the same boat. Before Dad died, he used to send an annual statement of income to CentreLink that justified the pension level they were being paid (to do with medical expenses, etc.). It meant CentreLink payments were higher than "normal" for them both. After he died, Mum simply did not know what was going on. Dad did all the paperwork (he was a CPA) and she had no idea. So for a couple of years, she did not send in the paperwork. But CentreLink kept paying her at the same rate as two people, and at a higher rate as previously. Then Robodebt kicked in. It found this overpayment had occurred for a few years since Dad died, and the debt collectors were sent in. Clearly a muddled 90yo was scamming the system! The family spent many hours with CentreLink on Mum's behalf trying to understand the situation, unravel it all, and get it managed. That included getting Enduring Power of Attorney and Enduring Guardianship. Which should have alerted CentreLink that something was not right. So the negotiations began. How did Mum rack up X-thousand in debt? What was the reason? How do we wind this back? Etc. We gradually windlassed details out of them, but it was clear it was a result of them simply failing to check with Mum for paperwork the first time it didn't appear, i.e. immediately after Dad died years previously. Meanwhile, Mum had a couple of strokes and had to be put in care. So she was often oblivious to these machinations. But one day a (scumbag) CentreLink debt-chaser called her (in bed in the care home just after another stroke) and told her that she was going to have her pension docked to pay her debts. And was she OK with that? Somehow they took Mum's whimpers as assent. Which undermined the whole negotiation process. So now Mum's meager pension is being docked to pay a debt she has no idea why she accrued. And this was just before Robodebt was revealed to be a giant and unconscionable lemon-squeezer anyway. Bastards. I wish your daughter luck! Thank you for this post. I used to work in the public service, including Centrelink’s predecessor, the Department of Social Security. Back in the 1970-80s. There was always recovery action, but not outright bastardry. This is pure LNP “support for farmers and businesses good, support for unemployed bad” ******. I will, of course, cover my daughter’s overpayment, but I will try to negotiate something like $2 a fortnight repayment schedule. ** them.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th August 2021, 05:28 PM	#247
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by lionking Thank you for this post. I used to work in the public service, including Centrelink’s predecessor, the Department of Social Security. Back in the 1970-80s. There was always recovery action, but not outright bastardry. This is pure LNP “support for farmers and businesses good, support for unemployed bad” ******. I will, of course, cover my daughter’s overpayment, but I will try to negotiate something like $2 a fortnight repayment schedule. ** them. Exactly. My brother has some shorter, more Anglo-Saxon words to describe them. More details. The CentreLink staff in the centres I visited all tried to be helpful insofar as they could go. They sympathised and did their best to alleviate the situation. So it wasn't the whole department is a pack of bastards. We discovered CentreLink has outsourced the debt collection. It means they are "not responsible" for how it is collected, so complaining to them is pointless. And the debt-collection people have no conscience. At all. They treat 93yo invalids the same way as feral "housos" - by coming the heavy with them. I'm normally pretty pacifist and laid back. But if I ever catch the one who monstered Mum, I will kick his balls into next week and laugh. Like you, we have managed to negotiate Mum's regular repayment, i.e. pension clipping, to the absolute minimum. It still means a fair chunk out of it, and she will need to keep paying until she dies. They initially wanted to take it all, which would have meant being removed from care. All her pension goes to the facility; and no pay, no care.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th August 2021, 06:32 PM	#248
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	633 cases now in NSW. R number, according to serial liar Gladys, is 1.3. I’ll bet it’s much more. Either way the state is ****** because the rules aren’t strict (houses can still be inspected, “recreation” is allowable) and those that are in place are being ignored. The place is beyond contact tracing. Gladys must go.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th August 2021, 06:36 PM	#249
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	I also find in the press conference that you can play golf in Sydney. They are not serious at all.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th August 2021, 07:09 PM	#250
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by lionking 633 cases now in NSW. R number, according to serial liar Gladys, is 1.3. I’ll bet it’s much more. Either way the state is ****** because the rules aren’t strict (houses can still be inspected, “recreation” is allowable) and those that are in place are being ignored. The place is beyond contact tracing. Gladys must go. As i asked before, how on Earth does this help. Bariloro, her deputy, is a LOT worse.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th August 2021, 07:10 PM	#251
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,456	Dr Chant (NSW Chief Health Officer) is very worried as she said a couple of times. What influence does she have on restrictions?
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

17th August 2021, 07:15 PM	#252
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by lionking I also find in the press conference that you can play golf in Sydney. They are not serious at all. Incorrect. https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/rule...onable-excuses Quote: Exercise and outdoor recreation Stay within your local government area. If you need to cross into another local government area, you must stay within 5km of your home. If travelling by a private vehicle (car), do not share a car with people you do not live with, except your nominated visitor ("singles bubble"). You can exercise with 1 other person that you do not live with, or your nominated visitor ("singles bubble"). If you live with more than 2 other people, you can all go out together for exercise. Quote: Other reasonable excuses It is also considered a reasonable excuse to leave your home if you need to donate blood access childcare continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children attend a funeral or memorial service that complies with the rules for funerals and memorial services provide care or assistance (including personal care) to a vulnerable person or to provide emergency assistance only 1 person may visit a residence to provide care at any one time access social services, employment services, services provided to victims (including as victims of crime), domestic violence services, and mental health services undertake legal obligations avoid injury or illness or to escape the risk of harm in case of emergencies for compassionate reasons, including where two people are in a relationship but do not necessarily live together to provide pastoral care if you are a priest, minister of religion or member of a religious order gathering at Parliament for the purpose of its normal operations. Can I suggest that some of the questions some reporters ask at press conferences are deliberately misleading provocations in order to generate headlines.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th August 2021, 07:29 PM	#253
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,456	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Can I suggest that some of the questions some reporters ask at press conferences are deliberately misleading provocations in order to generate headlines. That's exactly it. Been saying it for ages. The press conference question time is a gotcha session.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

17th August 2021, 08:19 PM	#254
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	I've got a mate who worked as counter staff in Centrelink Braddon. He said that it was a good day when they only had to call the police twice to deal with a problematic customer. He also told me about the ridiculously arcane and unnecessarily complicated computer system that has so much legacy data that to update it would be a billion-dollar project and no government is willing to give them that money. I don't let Centrelink off the hook, but I cut them a little slack. Its problems are real, and not easy to fix.
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17th August 2021, 08:57 PM	#255
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Incorrect. https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/rule...onable-excuses Can I suggest that some of the questions some reporters ask at press conferences are deliberately misleading provocations in order to generate headlines. Golf NSW disagrees. https://www.golfnsw.org.au/news/2021...update-latest/ Quote: Golf NSW has been advised that golf is considered exercise and can continue if your Club has and complies with its COVID-19 Safety Plan.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th August 2021, 09:09 PM	#256
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by lionking Golf NSW disagrees. https://www.golfnsw.org.au/news/2021...update-latest/ See the rules above. And this is still WITH masking. Quote: You can exercise with 1 other person that you do not live with, or your nominated visitor ("singles bubble"). If you live with more than 2 other people, you can all go out together for exercise. A bunch of yobs beering around a course mask-free is non-compliant. Ping them if you see them.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th August 2021, 09:12 PM	#257
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Dr Chant (NSW Chief Health Officer) is very worried as she said a couple of times. What influence does she have on restrictions? The government "listens to" and "takes" health advice. Doesn't mean they follow it, or have to take it into account, when making decisions. Pernickety word-play is great for plausible deniability.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th August 2021, 09:18 PM	#258
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 31,886	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I don't let Centrelink off the hook, but I cut them a little slack. Its problems are real, and not easy to fix. Sounds exactly the same as here, which is what I'd expect. And those problems lead to a woefully inadequate type of employee - if you had a few clues, why the hell would you work there? Vilified by everyone, threatened on the job, aged infrastructure, poor conditions... and all for quite lousy money. Join Centrelink Now!
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17th August 2021, 09:20 PM	#259
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I've got a mate who worked as counter staff in Centrelink Braddon. He said that it was a good day when they only had to call the police twice to deal with a problematic customer. He also told me about the ridiculously arcane and unnecessarily complicated computer system that has so much legacy data that to update it would be a billion-dollar project and no government is willing to give them that money. I don't let Centrelink off the hook, but I cut them a little slack. Its problems are real, and not easy to fix. I get this. I worked for the CES in the 1990s, when it’s job was to assess clients for benefits before passing it over to the Department of Social Security. I saw the violent, angry customers and poor systems. But I also saw a lot of staff who had no regard for clients, and many who were work shy. I don’t think much changed when Centrelink was created from these two departments.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

17th August 2021, 09:20 PM	#260
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Curious. This massive statewide outbreak is the sort of thing you might expect to occur about two weeks to a month after some super-spreader event attended by careless maskless unvaccinated crowds of virus-kettles who came from all over the state and congregated in close gatherings while shouting...
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

17th August 2021, 11:29 PM	#261
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Curious. This massive statewide outbreak is the sort of thing you might expect to occur about two weeks to a month after some super-spreader event attended by careless maskless unvaccinated crowds of virus-kettles who came from all over the state and congregated in close gatherings while shouting... Yeah. Weird, that.
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18th August 2021, 01:25 AM	#262
rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,327	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Curious. This massive statewide outbreak is the sort of thing you might expect to occur about two weeks to a month after some super-spreader event attended by careless maskless unvaccinated crowds of virus-kettles who came from all over the state and congregated in close gatherings while shouting... Just had a look at that. Your timing is right. It would explain why we suddenly had heaps of cases in the ACT. A number of people came back from these protests with Covid and spread it around the place. The ACT has had more cases than what I would expect from one person. ACT exposure sites https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/act-s...sure-locations News article on the protest in Sydney. Note date. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-57960044
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18th August 2021, 01:29 AM	#263
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	The original source of the Canberra outbreak hasn't been positively identified yet, but I'd be pretty astounded if it weren't that.
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18th August 2021, 01:36 AM	#264
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by rjh01 Just had a look at that. Your timing is right. It would explain why we suddenly had heaps of cases in the ACT. A number of people came back from these protests with Covid and spread it around the place. The ACT has had more cases than what I would expect from one person. ACT exposure sites https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/act-s...sure-locations News article on the protest in Sydney. Note date. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-57960044 It’s possible, but I think it’s more likely there were very many seeds of this disaster. Some from protests, some from selfish congregations at beaches and parks, but most from people illegally visiting other family members. The biggest super spreader event, however, was the NSW government’s unforgivable delay in locking down and letting retail, hospitality and construction simply carry on for weeks before their mockdown, with loopholes you could drive a D Triple through. This is all on Gladys.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

18th August 2021, 04:16 AM	#265
Wildy Adelaidean Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 11,361	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander As i asked before, how on Earth does this help. Bariloro, her deputy, is a LOT worse. Why would Barilaro become premier?
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18th August 2021, 04:20 AM	#266
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by Wildy Why would Barilaro become premier? That’s my belief too. There is no doubt that the LNP is conducting focus groups like crazy (as is the ALP) in the effort to find a non-toxic candidate.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

18th August 2021, 06:52 AM	#267
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by Wildy Why would Barilaro become premier? He's the Deputy Premier. Gladys walks or is tossed, he's in the top chair. Of course, that is not guaranteed. Could be a complete spill of the positions in a party room late one night. In which case, expect anything to happen!
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

19th August 2021, 08:42 PM	#268
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,456	There are gotcha sessions and there are gotcha sessions. The media seemed pretty angry at Gladys at the press conference this morning.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

19th August 2021, 10:36 PM	#269
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	I think there might be a reason for that.
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19th August 2021, 11:07 PM	#270
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Looks like I will need a permit to travel to my work, now. Hmm....
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

19th August 2021, 11:15 PM	#271
arthwollipot Observer of Phenomena Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ngunnawal Country Posts: 76,814	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander Looks like I will need a permit to travel to my work, now. Hmm.... I've got one. Haven't been asked to show it yet, but I will.
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20th August 2021, 05:37 AM	#272
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I've got one. Haven't been asked to show it yet, but I will. I could ask for one, but I won’t bother. I can get my job done through zoom and online. It’s not ideal, but it works.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

20th August 2021, 07:26 AM	#273
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Gundungurra Posts: 11,791	Originally Posted by arthwollipot I've got one. Haven't been asked to show it yet, but I will. Previously my work ID, which is my hospital employee access card on a lanyard, was sufficient. Now they want an official piece of paper from a different government department saying that the lanyard is valid. Originally Posted by lionking I could ask for one, but I won’t bother. I can get my job done through zoom and online. It’s not ideal, but it works. Ditto. My work PC is on a VPN, so I can work just the same as at my desk in the office (but slower - the NBN here is FTTN which sucks sweaty dogs' bollox).
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

20th August 2021, 07:35 AM	#274
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 19,041	Originally Posted by lionking I could ask for one, but I won’t bother. I can get my job done through zoom and online. It’s not ideal, but it works. That is one of the few positive outcomes of the covid virus. Having to transport bodies around to do jobs that are essentially only about transferring information is a massive logistical problem and a major cause of pollution and the destruction of the environment. It is to be hoped that the aftermath of the covid crisis will be a paradigm shift in how jobs get done.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 Last edited by psionl0; 20th August 2021 at 07:36 AM.

20th August 2021, 02:35 PM	#275
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 49,893	Originally Posted by psionl0 That is one of the few positive outcomes of the covid virus. Having to transport bodies around to do jobs that are essentially only about transferring information is a massive logistical problem and a major cause of pollution and the destruction of the environment. It is to be hoped that the aftermath of the covid crisis will be a paradigm shift in how jobs get done. I don’t fully agree. Transferring information over zoom is not always enough. With my job I’m required to decide if the workplace is a suitable and safe environment for training, with proper procedures and equipment. I can’t do that over zoom. The government (who we have a contract with) definitely wants us on the road.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill