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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:23 AM   #81
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Had a serious issue with it's cargo doors as well.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:16 AM   #82
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Here's one that's interesting to me, the Douglas DC-2
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:11 AM   #83
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The Martin P6 is gorgeous. It’s outline looks so like a hawk gliding down to the “hunch” of the shoulder muscles that I can’t help wondering if it was a conscious influence.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:16 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
That would mean A-10 couldn't fly at all at first, although it's become capable of flying since then as people have come to decide they like the way it looks... as a result of the fact that it already worked, which it wouldn't have.

The phrase also reminds me of one oldy that I saw at the flight museum in Seattle years ago. It had a single propeller on the nose, but the nose was such a huge box compared to the propeller size that only the tips of the blades reached beyond the rectangular outline of the nose, so it would have pulled practically no air past itself. To this day I can't imagine what the idea was behind that and can't convince myself that that thing ever flew, but if it didn't, what's it doing at that museum?
This? http://www.museumofflight.org/aircra...ty-springfield
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:26 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
Awesome!
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Old 5th March 2021, 03:11 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Awesome!
You misspelled "bastard aircraft to fly"

The Gee Bee was unstable in pitch and yaw, and was prone to doing an uncommanded snap-roll (caused when one wing stalls before the other) at the most inopportune moments such as during takeoff and landing (high AoA near stalling speed). It takes a very experienced pilot to fly those things, with 100% concentration at all times.
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Old 5th March 2021, 08:38 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You misspelled "bastard aircraft to fly"

The Gee Bee was unstable in pitch and yaw, and was prone to doing an uncommanded snap-roll (caused when one wing stalls before the other) at the most inopportune moments such as during takeoff and landing (high AoA near stalling speed). It takes a very experienced pilot to fly those things, with 100% concentration at all times.
No dispute there.

The KA6 sailplane that is my avatar was wrecked when my syndicate partner stalled, entered a spin and crashed it last year (fortunately he survived).

The Gee Bee is an insane design for a plane, but it's also an awesome thing to look at in a museum.

Anyway, this is a Percival Mew Gull air racer:
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This one is a very unusual and rare sight.
The aircraft has a very interesting history too.
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Old 5th March 2021, 01:08 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Anyway, this is a Percival Mew Gull air racer:

This one is a very unusual and rare sight.
The aircraft has a very interesting history too.
I don't believe I've seen that model before. It's like a Caudron C.714 got a makeover and some new "pants".
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Old 5th March 2021, 03:11 PM   #89
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I always preferred the early aircraft and especially WW1.

https://s3.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/.../36985.jpg?v=1


Be9 'Pulpit'

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9MladsOXE1...ight+front.jpg


Lloyd 40.08

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7FmLFPaNeJ...ut+sparrow.jpg


Blackburn AD Scout



De Bruyere C1



The Duck

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Old 5th March 2021, 05:58 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
https://www.museumofflight.org/aircr...ing-bw-replica

(Not as severe as I remember it, and there's a chance it was some other plane that I don't still have a picture of, but only if either the museum changed its displays since then or it's missing from their website or it's there but I missed it... anyway, although it looks less severe than what I had in mind, it's still pretty cooky compared to how other nose-propeller planes narrow at the nose and/or have longer blades. Picture the blades arranged diagonally; not much of the yellow reaches beyond those corners, especially the upper corners. And there are only 2 of them!)

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Old 6th March 2021, 06:10 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Galaxie View Post
I don't believe I've seen that model before. It's like a Caudron C.714 got a makeover and some new "pants".
There is a similarity but the Mew Gull racing planes came first, in 1934.
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Old 8th March 2021, 03:18 PM   #92
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Here is an oddball from just before the war.
It never entered general use.

the General Aircraft Fleet Shadower.

Designed to a Royal Navy requirement for an aircraft to stealthily shadow surface ships at night
An observer and radio operator were housed in a nose 'gallery'

It had a very long endurance, stalling speed of just 39mph, very quiet engines and shielded exhausts to make in less visible at night.

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Old 8th March 2021, 03:29 PM   #93
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Another good one from the 30s the Bell FM Airacuda.

Designed as a flying AA batter and long 'strategic' range fighter.
It featured gunners in nacelles in front of the engines which resulted in overheating and drag problems.
As the guns were controlled by a 'fire control officer' in the fuselage I can't see what their job was supposed to be apart from loaders maybe?
Before bailing out the gunners fired explosive bolts to jettison the props.

It had complicated electrical systems that were powered by an auxiliary engine housed in the fuselage. If it failed so did the fuel pumps, all electrical systems and all hydraulics.

It was slower than most of the contemporary bombers it was supposed to escort or intercept.

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Old 8th March 2021, 03:51 PM   #94
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Supermarine Nighthawk.

Anti Zeppelin aircraft.

It was supposed to be able to hang around waiting for a zeppelin to come along, illuminate it with searchlights and use the 37mm gun in the upper cabin to set it alight with incendiary fire.

While it had an endurance of up to 18 hours it could only manage 60mph above 6000 ft and took an hour to reach its 10,000 ft ceiling.

P and R class Zeppelins had a ceiling of 16,500ft and could make 60mph.

Still nice to see a quadraplane though

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Old 9th March 2021, 04:37 AM   #95
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R33, Britain's longest serving airship, built in a place hardly anyone will have ever heard of, and even most locals don't know it's history.
There's no sign that a factory was ever there, just a mound.

And the railway which serviced it, was removed decades ago.
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:42 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Here is an oddball from just before the war.
It never entered general use.

the General Aircraft Fleet Shadower.
I'm still waiting for a 1/72 scale kit of that one. I may have to wait a long time. Airspeed produced a similar one to the same specification, and it seems quite difficult to tell the two apart. As far as I can tell the Airspeed one seems to have had a tail-dragger configuration, but otherwise looked remarkably similar.

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Old 9th March 2021, 04:42 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Here is an oddball from just before the war.
It never entered general use.

the General Aircraft Fleet Shadower.

Designed to a Royal Navy requirement for an aircraft to stealthily shadow surface ships at night
An observer and radio operator were housed in a nose 'gallery'

It had a very long endurance, stalling speed of just 39mph, very quiet engines and shielded exhausts to make in less visible at night.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12772
This one I'd never heard of before, that is impressive.

I can see design elements of what became the Hamilcar in that.
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Old 9th March 2021, 04:59 AM   #98
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Radar rendered it obsolete before it entered service.
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Old 9th March 2021, 05:06 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Radar rendered it obsolete before it entered service.
Even without radar, I'd have had grave doubts about its survivability if it encountered an enemy with any kind of carrier-based fighter. An F2F or an A5M could make mincemeat of it quite easily.

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Old 9th March 2021, 06:04 AM   #100
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How many carrier based aircraft did the Germans have?

How did they operate at night?
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Old 9th March 2021, 06:30 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
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R33, Britain's longest serving airship, built in a place hardly anyone will have ever heard of, and even most locals don't know it's history.
There's no sign that a factory was ever there, just a mound.

And the railway which serviced it, was removed decades ago.
Barlow. No, I'd never heard of it. And just a stone's throw from Howden where R100 was built.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:05 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How many carrier based aircraft did the Germans have?

How did they operate at night?
The original intended air compliment for the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin was:

10x Bf-109T fighters. That was a long wing version of the 109E-1 with carrier equipment added. Had the carrier gone into service later versions of the Bf-109 would have been adapted.

13x Ju-87C dive bombers. They were carrier versions of the Ju-87B with folding wings and carrier gear. Again later versions would probably be adapted.

20x Fi-167 torpedo and scout bombers. This was a very conventional biplane with folding wings and fixed gear. it was not catapult rated, and would have flown off the deck.

Later, the Fi-167 was canceled, and the Ju-87 adapted as a torpedo bomber.

For night operations the carrier would have had radar, but none of the aircraft were intended for night ops.

In the event none of the four intended carriers was completed, so no aircraft were ever taken aboard.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:11 AM   #103
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But it din't get in to service or even anywhere near completed and at the time of the Shadower wasn't even contemplated.
Shadower itself was a shore based aircraft
If the carrier had been completed there wouldn't have been an airborne radar for it until the 1940s.
By the time airborne radar was looking practical the Shadower had been abandoned as obsolete, it never got beyond prototype.

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Old 9th March 2021, 12:48 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Barlow. No, I'd never heard of it. And just a stone's throw from Howden where R100 was built.
They sometimes produced parts for Howden.

But it's a most strange and odd place for aviation history, one of the three main centres in the UK airship industry, the others being Howden, and Cardington.

I guess it's obscurity gave it security.
But there's no visible signs left, either on the ground or from the air.
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Old 10th March 2021, 02:57 AM   #105
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This one's a Sepecat Jaguar.
The Anglo French fighter bomber, was developed in the 1960s and first flew in 1968 a year before the Concorde. Carrier capability was designed into the type's capabilities, but despite some tests they were never operationally used from carriers.
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Old 10th March 2021, 08:24 AM   #106
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RAF versions had a different wing, redesigned fuselage, redesigned cockpit, and after-burning engines. A moving map display, laser range-finder and marked-target seeker It was largely a different aircraft.
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Old 10th March 2021, 08:42 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You misspelled "bastard aircraft to fly"

The Gee Bee was unstable in pitch and yaw, and was prone to doing an uncommanded snap-roll (caused when one wing stalls before the other) at the most inopportune moments such as during takeoff and landing (high AoA near stalling speed). It takes a very experienced pilot to fly those things, with 100% concentration at all times.
The quote I read was that flying the Gee Bee was like balancing a pencil on the tip of your finger. Although I've since heard that modern reproductions use a different airfoil section that vastly improves flight characteristics.
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Old 10th March 2021, 08:44 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Here is an oddball from just before the war.
It never entered general use.

the General Aircraft Fleet Shadower.

Designed to a Royal Navy requirement for an aircraft to stealthily shadow surface ships at night
An observer and radio operator were housed in a nose 'gallery'

It had a very long endurance, stalling speed of just 39mph, very quiet engines and shielded exhausts to make in less visible at night.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12772
The tiny little Pobjoy engines make it look bigger than it is.
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Old 10th March 2021, 08:51 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
The original intended air compliment for the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin was:

10x Bf-109T fighters. That was a long wing version of the 109E-1 with carrier equipment added. Had the carrier gone into service later versions of the Bf-109 would have been adapted.
I've always had a hard time picturing the Bf-109 undercarriage making carrier traps. I'm not saying it wasn't possible, but I've always understood the narrow gear track to be one of the weak points of the 109. Lots of inexperienced pilots ground looped in them.
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Old 10th March 2021, 09:09 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
RAF versions had a different wing, redesigned fuselage, redesigned cockpit, and after-burning engines. A moving map display, laser range-finder and marked-target seeker It was largely a different aircraft.
Thought that all variants used afterburning Rolls Royce Turbomeca Adour engines ?
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Old 10th March 2021, 10:27 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I've always had a hard time picturing the Bf-109 undercarriage making carrier traps. I'm not saying it wasn't possible, but I've always understood the narrow gear track to be one of the weak points of the 109. Lots of inexperienced pilots ground looped in them.
I agree. I think that would have been a significant problem for them. I'd speculate that, had the carrier program gone ahead, they would have changed to a navalized version of the FW-190. It had a sturdier and wider track landing gear (and, unlike the 109, it's wing structure was suitable to add a wing fold mechanism). One problem would have been the poor downward visibility, even on the radial engined versions. Carrier landings would have been tricky with the 190, but probably not as bad as the 109, which also had poor downward visibility and a delicate landing gear.
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Old 10th March 2021, 10:39 AM   #112
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There were similar concerns about the Spitfire's narrow undercarriage when it was navalised as the Seafire but it seemed to cope fairly well, as far as I know unmodified (the undercarriage, that is). I think overall the plane was a bit too fragile for the rough and tumble of carrier life.
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Old 10th March 2021, 12:06 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
I've always had a hard time picturing the Bf-109 undercarriage making carrier traps. I'm not saying it wasn't possible, but I've always understood the narrow gear track to be one of the weak points of the 109. Lots of inexperienced pilots ground looped in them.
Navalised Spitfires the 'Seafires' suffered from structural damage caused by heavy deck landings even when they were strengthened and the narrow undercarriage track was always a problem.

I can't think the Me109 would have been any better.
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Old 10th March 2021, 12:07 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
One problem would have been the poor downward visibility, even on the radial engined versions. Carrier landings would have been tricky with the 190, but probably not as bad as the 109, which also had poor downward visibility and a delicate landing gear.
If the Fleet Air Arm could work out a way to use the Corsair on carriers, I am sure the Germans could have worked out something for the 190.
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Old 10th March 2021, 01:37 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
If the Fleet Air Arm could work out a way to use the Corsair on carriers, I am sure the Germans could have worked out something for the 190.
I agree, they could have worked it out in the long run. Bear in mind though that they were starting with about twenty-five years less experience at carrier ops than the Royal Navy had when they got their first Corsairs.
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Old 10th March 2021, 01:47 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
I agree, they could have worked it out in the long run. Bear in mind though that they were starting with about twenty-five years less experience at carrier ops than the Royal Navy had when they got their first Corsairs.
even with that the Corsair had a lot of hard landings and wrecks.

Carrier Pilot by Norman Hanson is the book to read.
He was one of the Fleet Air Arm pilots given the job of working out how to use a Corsair on a carrier.
It was never easy.
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Old 11th March 2021, 03:19 AM   #117
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The fleet air arm even managed to land a De Havilland Mosquito on a carrier.
So I agree, it would have been possible to get an FW190 to land on a carrier.

Thank goodness the Graf Zeppelin carrier never went operational.
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Old 11th March 2021, 07:32 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The fleet air arm even managed to land a De Havilland Mosquito on a carrier.
So I agree, it would have been possible to get an FW190 to land on a carrier.

Thank goodness the Graf Zeppelin carrier never went operational.
I suspect it would have ridden out the war like the rest of the Kriegsmarine's big capitol ships post Bismarck - hiding out in a port until sunk by one of Barnes Wallis's gadgets.
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Old 11th March 2021, 08:10 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The fleet air arm even managed to land a De Havilland Mosquito on a carrier.
So I agree, it would have been possible to get an FW190 to land on a carrier.

Thank goodness the Graf Zeppelin carrier never went operational.
It's all very well getting one to land on a carrier, the problem comes when you have to keep landing it on a carrier.
Me109 like the Spitfire wasn't designed to take hard arrestor landings on a carrier.
There were several marks of Seafire each one with added strengthening to the fuselage and gear and they still kept breaking.

If it had become operational what would they have done with one carrier?

Would it have ever even left port?
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Old 11th March 2021, 08:34 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How many carrier based aircraft did the Germans have?
I suspect an Ar-196 could have given the Fleet Shadower quite a hard time. But then again, the Germans barely had a fleet to shadow. The Japanese, on the other hand, did, and it had plenty of carrier based aircraft. And, of course, France had a fleet and a carrier, and I think even a D376 could have caught it. So who was the envisaged enemy for the Fleet Shadower; Germany, for whom it wasn't really needed, or France or Japan, for whom it was never going to be suitable?

I suspect the absence of a clear answer to that question may have been a factor in its never progressing beyond the prototype stage.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How did they operate at night?
How would the Fleet Shadower find the ship it was supposed to be shadowing at night, and how long before dawn would it have to leave it unobserved?

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