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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:06 AM   #1001
wobs
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
1. UK citizens are delayed when travelling to Europe.
2. UK citizens can not work in Europe without a lot more red tape
3. UK citizens are limited in the time they can spend in Europe. A lot affected by this are of retirement age and need extra health and public services. That will now need to be provided by the UK rather than the EU.
4. The UK is less attractive as a destination for holidays due to ease of access. That will hit our tourism industry.
5. The UK is less attractive to seasonal migrants meaning a lot of our industries where we struggle to get UK workers will not get the staff they need to supply their goods. It will hit the local economy.
6. It will also make it harder to get UK goods in the supermarket if those goods are still rotting in a field.
7. The UK is a less attractive destination for permanent workers. Not only is there red tape it is harder for the worker to travel and harder for their friends and relatives to visit them.
8. The adminstration is a large extra cost which does not produce anything for UK PLC and needs to be funded by an increase in taxation or a cut in public services.
9. The UK is a less attractive destination for EU students. This has a negative effect on UK universities income as well as their ability to do research, and the quality of their research. This is another 'brain drain' in that we will no longer attract the brightest and the best.
10. Northern Ireland-GB ! The current difficulties and the new internal border controls between parts of the UK are down to the withdrawal of free movement.

Glad you find all that funny.
Another one (or maybe expand on what you have): If you were involved in a project in the EU, and you wanted to do a quick visit to check up on things, it wouldn't be worth it, as you need to spend more hours getting there, and with more paperwork. So for example, if you were an architect, you wouldn't want to be involved with a project in the EU, as a short visit to site or to check out a supplier wouldn't be worth it.

Its not a major deal if you're going on holiday for 2 weeks in Germany or something. A few hours out of 2 weeks is not a deal breaker, but a short visit for business purposes is. This is another issue that could really impact UK business.

There are many instances where Zoom is not a suitable alternative, and you have to be there.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:06 AM   #1002
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Now sacked former Prime Ministers.
And is not the same true for UK laws? We voted for MPs and MEPs and this being a representative democracy they passed laws. Many of them now voted out of office. I can only assume that the reason the word “sacked” is in there is because you feel laws and agreements should be repealed when the people who voted for them go out of office.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:08 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Does that really matter ?
The Beatles didn't have free movement and they got their big break in Hamburg.

Biggest threat to the wallets of UK musicians now is streaming....
You are well out of touch. The model has changed 180°. Bands no longer tour to promote profitable record sales.
Streaming is the norm and has been for quite a while. Bands now release music to promote profitable tours
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:10 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Does that really matter ?
The Beatles didn't have free movement and they got their big break in Hamburg.

Biggest threat to the wallets of UK musicians now is streaming....
This is like a sixth-form debate. Just think of any old argument to counter the proposition put.

The Beatles were way back in the early sixties. They had a canny businesswise agent (Epstein). He put them in a room in the basement and told them they would starve unless they wrote a few good songs, which they did. Bringing out records in a studio and staged tv programmes is not the same as touring and gigging. The Beatles only became big when they conquered America with a well-planned PR concert at the Shea Stadium. They had funds up front. Musicians going to Europe for gigs have to pay their own way.

Here in Finland we have the Ruissalo rock festival every year, with plenty of British acts, and also the enormously popular Pori jazz, not to mention opera at Savonlinna. The Eurovision Song Contest is in Amsterdam this year and all the acts are going to be there live. So now the UK musicians will need to pay all sorts of tariffs on their own instruments when returning back to the UK.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:11 AM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Ask the British musicians, actors etc who used to travel and work freely all over Europe and are now going to have to compete for jobs with equally talented professionals from 27 countries who don't need visas after just 90 days.
Unless they are dual citizens with another EU country the jobbing musicians may as well forget the EU for earnings.

Movie and TV production jobs are also going to be lost, from being able to simply jump on a flight and be working on a set within a couple of hours of being contracted they will now have to get appropriate visas and work permits. Again producers will now simply use other EU citizens as there is no paperwork, no issue if the shoot goes on another 2 weeks and permits expire, or they’ve now spent 91 days in total in a given calendar year in that country and so on.

The choice is going to be “UK contractor + hassle” or “EU contractor + no hassle”.

Guess what a producer will choose?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:15 AM   #1006
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Unless they are dual citizens with another EU country the jobbing musicians may as well forget the EU for earnings.

Movie and TV production jobs are also going to be lost, from being able to simply jump on a flight and be working on a set within a couple of hours of being contracted they will now have to get appropriate visas and work permits. Again producers will now simply use other EU citizens as there is no paperwork, no issue if the shoot goes on another 2 weeks and permits expire, or they’ve now spent 91 days in total in a given calendar year in that country and so on.

The choice is going to be “UK contractor + hassle” or “EU contractor + no hassle”.

Guess what a producer will choose?
LOL

UK citizens losing their careers and livelihoods [/Airfix]
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:49 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is like a sixth-form debate. Just think of any old argument to counter the proposition put.

The Beatles were way back in the early sixties. They had a canny businesswise agent (Epstein).
They went to Hamburg in 1960.
Epstein first met them in 1961 but did not start working for them until 1962.


My point stands.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:51 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
LOL

UK citizens losing their careers and livelihoods
The lack of profits brought about from streaming eating into music sales is more of a problem for them than losing EU membership.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 03:52 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Unless they are dual citizens with another EU country the jobbing musicians may as well forget the EU for earnings.
Classical musicians, having already been hit hard by Covid, are now having to deal with Brexit ****. What orchestra is going to invite a guest soloist from the UK if, as you say, they can get an EU one without any hassle? These guys spend most of their time doing live performances.

Simon Rattle is terminating his role with the CBSO early to take a job in Germany, where he has family, and has applied for German citizenship. He's the first, but he won't be the last. Britain's best conductor will no longer be British.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:01 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Movie and TV production jobs are also going to be lost
Nah.

Americans love it here.

Latest Batman film is going to be filmed in Liverpool, despite Brexit.
Parts of the Nolan Batman films were filmed in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Begins#Filming

Tumbler Batmobile from Batman Begins was designed and built in the UK, as they couldn't find anybody in the USA to design and build it.

Batman 1989:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman..._film)#Filming

There are reasons Pinewood is so popular, the EU isn't one.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:03 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And that happened whilst we were members.
Sigh. And you continue to deny uncomfortable realities; the problem is still happening today. The systems are not fixed, the PNC-ACRO linkage is still mainly manual and reliant on manual corrections. The UK has still not cleared the backlog of tens of thousands of records that it knew several years ago weren't being processed. The Home Office is still lying and you're still in denial.
FFS the endemic problems aren't just limited to dual citizens, ask people from Wakefield....

The UK's incompetence and lying, which continued after Brexit remember, demonstrates clearly that is not a trustworthy state.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:04 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Classical musicians, having already been hit hard by Covid, are now having to deal with Brexit

It's not like there'll be nowhere for them to play.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:11 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sigh. And you continue to deny uncomfortable realities; the problem is still happening today. The systems are not fixed, the PNC-ACRO linkage is still mainly manual and reliant on manual corrections. The UK has still not cleared the backlog of tens of thousands of records that it knew several years ago weren't being processed. The Home Office is still lying and you're still in denial.
FFS the endemic problems aren't just limited to dual citizens, ask people from Wakefield....

The UK's incompetence and lying, which continued after Brexit remember, demonstrates clearly that is not a trustworthy state.
I'm sure there are some problems, but there are with any political system.
Question is whether the ends are justified, and they are.
The people voted to leave and we would have far more problems on our plate if we hadn't honoured the vote.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:13 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Does that really matter ?
The Beatles didn't have free movement and they got their big break in Hamburg.

Biggest threat to the wallets of UK musicians now is streaming....
Oh sweet jeebus but you, yet again, spout off on matters you are grossly and willfully ignorant about.

Most of the creative sector is made up of small performers, to whom the addition of several hundred Euro to costs for visits to EU states means such deals are pointless. Yet the music sector is worth around €6.7 billion to the UK economy; compared to ~€505 million for the entirely of the fishing trade.
The creative sector as a whole is worth around €128 billion to the UK.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:16 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is like a sixth-form debate. <snip>
That is a terrible insult to many not-quite-adults.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
<snip>
My point stands.
No it doesn't. You "point" was ignorant, irrelevant nonsense intended to try and paper over your inability to answer the point made.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The lack of profits brought about from streaming eating into music sales is more of a problem for them than losing EU membership.
Bollocks. Yet again you demonstrate your abject ignorance.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:18 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Nah.

Americans love it here.
<snip>
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/as...ec28b74f86.jpg
It's not like there'll be nowhere for them to play.
More ignorant, denialist nonsense.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:27 AM   #1017
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh sweet jeebus but you, yet again, spout off on matters you are grossly and willfully ignorant about.

Most of the creative sector is made up of small performers, to whom the addition of several hundred Euro to costs for visits to EU states means such deals are pointless. Yet the music sector is worth around €6.7 billion to the UK economy; compared to ~€505 million for the entirely of the fishing trade.
The creative sector as a whole is worth around €128 billion to the UK.

And how much of that is down to free movement (of people)?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:38 AM   #1018
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The lack of profits brought about from streaming eating into music sales is more of a problem for them than losing EU membership.
There are plenty of bands that have little or nothing in the way of music sales, but make money, and have a lot of fun, with minor tours in Europe. My son is drummer for one such (occasional) band and they will simply give up on that part of their work.

And your photo of the Albert Hall is not impressive, it's ignorant.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:40 AM   #1019
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/as...ec28b74f86.jpg
It's not like there'll be nowhere for them to play.
There have always been British venues in which they can play. And yet the best British musicians have always chosen to travel in order to perform with other musicians of, and to audiences of, many different nationalities. Do you think there might be a reason for that? Could it be the same reason that musicians of many different nationalities travel to the UK to play in this very venue every summer?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:45 AM   #1020
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The lack of profits brought about from streaming eating into music sales is more of a problem for them than losing EU membership.
I am sure the UK musicians living in europe and performing will be glad to hear this.
There are thousands pf jobbing and career musicians living and playing in Europe not to mention the touring performers.

Have you told any of the performers that streaming pop songs are a bigger problem than being able to sit with the orchestra, band, studio or theater or that employs them?

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 3rd March 2021 at 04:48 AM.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:46 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/as...ec28b74f86.jpg
It's not like there'll be nowhere for them to play.
Is that why 50 muscians protested outside Westminster in 2019 playing Ode to Joy?
https://www.classicfm.com/composers/...rotest-brexit/
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:49 AM   #1022
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And how much of that is down to free movement (of people)?
I have an idea, why don't you go and do some actual research. The Incorporated Society of Musicians is a good place to start.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:50 AM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I am sure the UK musicians living in europe and performing will be glad to hear this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55056338

https://musiciansunion.org.uk/all-ne...aming-campaign

Taylor Swift removed her back catalogue from Spotify as it wasn't making her any money.

Before the death of Prince he had removed his catalogue from Youtube, as he wasn't making any money out of streaming.

The real issue for musicians is not where they get paid now, but IF they get paid at all.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:52 AM   #1024
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What does Taylor Swift being on Spotify or not have to do with it?
Prince on Youtube is a diversion.

Most musicians get paid for live performance or session work.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 04:54 AM   #1025
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Nah.

Americans love it here.

Latest Batman film is going to be filmed in Liverpool, despite Brexit.
Parts of the Nolan Batman films were filmed in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Begins#Filming

Tumbler Batmobile from Batman Begins was designed and built in the UK, as they couldn't find anybody in the USA to design and build it.

Batman 1989:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman..._film)#Filming

There are reasons Pinewood is so popular, the EU isn't one.
Silly.

TV and movie production is yet something else you are showing you have very little knowledge of.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:01 AM   #1026
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Silly.

TV and movie production is yet something else you are showing you have very little knowledge of.
Oh come now Darat, how can airfix be expected to know about this kind of thing when they're spending so much of their time researching the history of aviation.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 05:22 AM   #1027
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55056338

https://musiciansunion.org.uk/all-ne...aming-campaign

Taylor Swift removed her back catalogue from Spotify as it wasn't making her any money.

Before the death of Prince he had removed his catalogue from Youtube, as he wasn't making any money out of streaming.

The real issue for musicians is not where they get paid now, but IF they get paid at all.
This is nothing to do with Brexit and freedom of movement. But I suppose it gets you yet more attention (yes, guilty as charged here)
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:11 AM   #1028
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/as...ec28b74f86.jpg
It's not like there'll be nowhere for them to play.

Are you suggesting that those musicians that used to be able to tour through twenty-something countries with little to no paperwork required and make a few hundred quid at each venue before moving onto the next - who now cannot do so profitably due to the added costs directly attributable to brexit - can now make their money by playing at the Royal Albert Hall?

Because if you're suggesting that then I'd like to introduce you to a little thing called reality.

If you're not suggesting that then your post is just a distraction cos you have no argument.

I'm curious as to why you posted a picture of the RHA when it has no bearing on the discussion. Are you now going to try to pass your attempt at distraction off as an attempt at being funny.


You have absolutely no idea, do you?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 06:53 AM   #1029
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
https://cdn.londonandpartners.com/as...ec28b74f86.jpg

It's not like there'll be nowhere for them to play.
You understand that there are lots more venues in the EU and that *gasp* some of these countries actually support the arts which is why we quite like playing over there?

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Old 3rd March 2021, 07:21 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Silly.

TV and movie production is yet something else you are showing you have very little knowledge of.
Or he does but is gambling no one else will so he can get away with the misdirection.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:15 AM   #1031
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
They went to Hamburg in 1960.
Epstein first met them in 1961 but did not start working for them until 1962.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...f69813c922.jpg

My point stands.
Nope. I was going to point out the following but then felt too apa

Quote:
First recording session and use of harmonica
On 4 September 1962, Brian Epstein paid for the Beatles—along with their new drummer, Ringo Starr—to fly down from Liverpool to London.[19] After first checking into their Chelsea hotel, they arrived at EMI Studios early in the afternoon where they set up their equipment in Studio 3 and began rehearsing six songs including: "Please Please Me", "Love Me Do" and a song originally composed for Adam Faith by Mitch Murray called "How Do You Do It?" which George Martin "was insisting, in the apparent absence of any stronger original material, would be the group's first single"
wiki
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Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:23 AM   #1032
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And how much of that is down to free movement (of people)?
Well, at Ruissalo Rock, there have been all of the following artistes (I'll let you eliminate the non-EU lot):

Quote:
Other famous bands to have played Ruisrock are Colosseum (1970), Family (1970), The Kinks (1971), Canned Heat (1971), Fairport Convention (1971), The Jeff Beck Group (1971), Pink Fairies (1971), Uriah Heep (1972 and 1978), MC5 (1972), Lindisfarne (1972), Status Quo (1973), Nazareth (1974), Procol Harum (1974), Mahavishnu Orchestra (1975), The Sensational Alex Harvey Band (1976), Chuck Berry (1976), Thin Lizzy (1977), The Boomtown Rats (1978), The Clash (1979), The Jam (1980), The Selecter (1980), UB40 (1981), Girlschool (1981), U2 (1982), Whitesnake (1983), The Alarm (1984), Nina Hagen (1984), The Cure (1985), The Damned (1986), The Pretenders (1987), The Stranglers (1988), Tanita Tikaram (1989), Georgia Satellites (1989), Soundgarden (1990), Bob Dylan (1990), Midnight Oil (1990), Billy Idol (1991), Nirvana (1992), Faith No More (1993), Chris Isaak (1993), Jethro Tull (1993), Aerosmith (1994), Simple Minds (1995), Bon Jovi (1995), Blur (1996), Pulp (1996), Neil Young (1996), David Bowie (1997), Sting (1997), Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds (1997), Pet Shop Boys (1997), Beastie Boys (1998), Jesus and Mary Chain (1998), Metallica (1999), Ministry (1999), Blondie (1999), Oasis (2000), Iron Maiden (2000), Lou Reed (2000), Hellacopters (2001), Kent (2002), Manic Street Preachers (2003), Dio (2003), The Cardigans (2003), Motörhead (2004), Stray Cats (2004), Hawkwind (2004), Within Temptation (2005), Rammstein (2005), New York Dolls (2006), Morrissey (2006), Tool (2006), Flogging Molly (2006), Saxon (2006), Opeth (2006), Billy Talent (2007), Interpol (2008), Primal Scream (2008), Bullet for my Valentine (2008), Anti-Flag (2008), Slipknot (2009), Volbeat (2009), Canned Heat (2010), Ozzy Osbourne (2010), NOFX (2010), The Specials (2010), Amon Amarth (2010), The National (2011), Nekromantix (2011), Paramore (2011), Suicidal Tendencies (2012), Pulp (2012), Bloc Party (2012), Amorphis (2013), The Sounds (2013), Editors (2013), The Offspring (2014), Suede (2014)
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Lots of free movement!
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:40 AM   #1033
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That is a terrible insult to many not-quite-adults.


<snip>
Nonsense. Nothing to do with ageism. 'Sixth form' is a well-known phrase that hints at the shadowland that lies between naive idealism and half-baked utterings quite divorced from sound knowledge.

I think Supertramp sums up the phenomenon of facile pondering, 'at night when all the world's asleep'. And then there is the real hard stuff.

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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:03 AM   #1034
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So now the UK musicians will need to pay all sorts of tariffs on their own instruments when returning back to the UK.
Most countries have in the customs rules temporary export schemes that prevent to pay tariffs when coming back with professional material, including music instruments. I would guess the UK has the same.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:18 AM   #1035
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Silly.

TV and movie production is yet something else you are showing you have very little knowledge of.
I don't know "it all" but I've been an extra a few times.

And your argument fails to convince.

Why did George Lucas film so much of Star Wars at Pinewood ?
Wasn't because we were in the EEC I'll tell you that.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:19 AM   #1036
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
You understand that there are lots more venues in the EU and that *gasp* some of these countries actually support the arts which is why we quite like playing over there?
And they'll still be able to play those venues.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:23 AM   #1037
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:26 AM   #1038
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And they'll still be able to play those venues.
Not profitably. Why do you seek to speak about that of which you know nothing?

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/john-le...es-cover-1968/

https://www.classicfm.com/music-news...cal-musicians/

https://apnews.com/article/brexit-eu...00f0afd8acabed
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:30 AM   #1039
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And it isn't possible for a future government to negotiate visa free travel for musicians ?

Why do you speak about that which you know nothing ?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:34 AM   #1040
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And it isn't possible for a future government to negotiate visa free travel for musicians ?
Yes, but we already had that and this brexit that you're so fond of took it away. It's a direct result of brexit that we're talking about here.

If 'yes but it can be fixed later' is a valid argument then you can just use that every single time. It isn't, and it hasn't and you can't


Quote:
Why do you speak about that which you know nothing ?
I know a damn site more about this than you do, by having read the issues - as demonstrated by your laughable 'yes they can still play those venues' comment earlier, which amply demonstrates that you don't know what the issues with touring are or how they've been affected by brexit and the costs and administritive hassle it has added to playing on the continent.
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